Guys who you DON'T want to see drafted by Buffalo..

[Tatonka]

you can pick 2 guys.. two guys that you just do not want to see the bills draft. then explain yourself.

1. Winston Justice - the guy is a great athlete, but there is one major issue that everyone seems to keep forgetting about. He is a Right Tackle. That is what he played in college, because his qb is left handed. Now he MAY be able to switch to the left side, since the bills want to keep Peters at RT, according to Jauron... but that will NOT happen this year.. Gandy will beat out a rookie that has never played LT before.. this on top of the fact that Justice got amusement out of pulling a toy gun on someone who thought it was real and it cost him a year of college. I know he said he was sorry.. but just like marcus vick, these guys will say anything at this point to get drafted higher.. to me.. actions speak louder than words.

2. Michael Huff - Now this pick is not so much an indication of Huffs abilities, as it is the fact that there are at least 3 other STRONG safeties that i think would do just as well at SS for the bills. My ideal pick would be Bing from USC. I listened to an interview w/ Pete Carroll yesterday on Sirius, and he sold me on the guy. Bullocks is another guy that i really like for our SS spot. So again, It is not that i think Huff is not a good player.. i just feel the draft has several good safeties that fit what we need.. i am comfortable with Vincent and Baker at FS. And i actually think that Bowens may be pretty solid at SS for the time being.. so a Rookie safety may end up sitting the bench regardless.

I would like to see immediate use out of a guy that we pick at number 8. I dont think either one of these guys offer that.

[YardRat]

Vince Young and Jay Cutler, QB's - neither are ready to step in and contribute right away, both are going to need time to develop. We've already got a guy like that on the roster at the moment, and one's enough.

Personally I don't see Young panning out anyway, and I think the transition to the pro level is going to be difficult for him. You don't get by in the big leagues on physical ability alone, especially at the QB spot. Pencil Vince in as a first-round bust right now, as far as I'm concerned.

Cutler should at least develop into a nice starter somewhere, but we don't have the time, or the team, to start the growing pain process all over again.

[hydro]

Vince Young- Everyone was sooo high on this guy right after the Championship game but after his showing or lack there of at the combine and personal workouts hardly anyone is talking about him. I see this guy as just another Vick but with an ugly ackward throwing motion. Also the fact that he did horrible on the wonderlic doesn't help either. I agree with YardRat, i see Young as a big time bust as well.

If we are going to take a chance on a QB early in the draft i want them to take a chance on Cutler.

[ICE74129]

[quote=Tatonka]you can pick 2 guys.. two guys that you just do not want to see the bills draft. then explain yourself.

1. Winston Justice - the guy is a great athlete, but there is one major issue that everyone seems to keep forgetting about. He is a Right Tackle. That is what he played in college, because his qb is left handed. Now he MAY be able to switch to the left side, since the bills want to keep Peters at RT, according to Jauron... but that will NOT happen this year.. Gandy will beat out a rookie that has never played LT before.. this on top of the fact that Justice got amusement out of pulling a toy gun on someone who thought it was real and it cost him a year of college. I know he said he was sorry.. but just like marcus vick, these guys will say anything at this point to get drafted higher.. to me.. actions speak louder than words.

Funny how you go against all the experts. I keep reading how they say Justice can and most likely will be a LT in this league and most likely start this year.

[ICE74129]

Who we shouldn't pick? Any one in rounds 1-2 that isn't on the OL or DL.

[OpIv37]

Matt Leinart- the guy looked pretty average in the few games where he played decent competition. And in the NFL he'll play decent competition every week.

Vince Young- people are obsessed with these mobile, athletic QB's but so far none have ever really panned out. Vick, Brooks, Losman- there's still time for these guys but I don't know why everyone seems to love this type of QB for the NFL when there aren't any success stories yet (with the possible exception of McNabb). The prototype for the modern QB seems to be the hybrids like Brady and Manning- they don't have the pocket presence of the old-skoolers like Kelly, Marino, Elway or the athleticism of Vick and Brooks, but they can throw from the pocket and escape when they have to.

And, even if I'm dead wrong and both Young and Leinart end up being great NFL QB's, they still won't be able to step in and immediately contribute. Marv seems intent on buildin through the draft- since he did nothing in FA, he better draft some guys that can help NOW.

[The_Philster]

Elway was pretty mobile...I'd say he would fit in with Vick to a certain extent

[Tatonka]

Funny how you go against all the experts. I keep reading how they say Justice can and most likely will be a LT in this league and most likely start this year.

i was going by what his own college coach said.. but what does he know, right?

show me where other people are saying different..

pete carroll said he has never played Left tackle.. and it will take him time to get used to it.. that he can make the switch, but it definately wont be over night..

hmmm.. sounds alot like what i heard about mike williams.

not to mention the whole GUN thing that got him kicked out of school for a year.. you think marv is taking that guy?

comments ice?

[Tatonka]

Who we shouldn't pick? Any one in rounds 1-2 that isn't on the OL or DL.

your posts are so ****ing awful.

[hydro014]

Who we shouldn't pick? Any one in rounds 1-2 that isn't on the OL or DL.

Ice, i know you dont want anyone but OL or DL. But unless we trade out of 8 the only OL or DL that is worth that pick is D'Brink and most likely he wont be there. Ngata i was never high on and dosent fit our new D, i really like Bunkley but i dont think he is worth the 8th either. Also Justice is next best OT but i really dont think he's worth the 8th. With that said, look at what troy polamalu, bob sanders, ed reed and roy williams can do for a team. Michael Huff could be one of those players, and not only can he play safty but if clements is gone in 07 huff can move to corner, if needed. IMO we are going to stuggle next year so drafting for need dosent make sense. If we were a team only missing a DT or a G or a T from getting deep into the playoffs than i agree with you, but we are not that team.

I obviously would like Williams, D'Brick, or Hawk but i really dont think any of them will fall. So what i really want to do is trade out, get an extra 2nd with a extra pick next year,then draft the best player available in the first when we pick. Draft BPA in the 1st (we need help everywhere), a OL(a must) and a DL or S with our seconds and a OL or DL and a CB in the 3rd after those picks BPA for depth. I do believe our weekest parts of the team are the lines but we were 5-11 we need more than just OL and DL.

[hydro014]

My 2 guys i dont want

Haloti Ngata - every game i watched he gave up on a lot of plays. He seemed to get tired quick and has had injuries other than his ACL tear. I know that he dosent fit into a cover 2 scheme, but thats not why i dont want him.

Jay Cutler - The only way i want a QB is if JP is gone. I would like to see JP given a real chance with more than 1 season under his belt, even though it was only 8 games. Holcumbs a backup and always will be, Nall is still to unproven for me to be sold on him as a starter. If they do take a QB i dont feel Cutler can do any better than most rookie QBs, so that means we have to wait to find out if he's any good for at least another 3 yrs. I like leinart and young, but i think they will both be gone. Again this is only if they are done with JP, which i dont think they should be yet.

[ICE74129]

i was going by what his own college coach said.. but what does he know, right?

show me where other people are saying different..

pete carroll said he has never played Left tackle.. and it will take him time to get used to it.. that he can make the switch, but it definately wont be over night..

hmmm.. sounds alot like what i heard about mike williams.

not to mention the whole GUN thing that got him kicked out of school for a year.. you think marv is taking that guy?

comments ice?

Yes I believe Marv is taking the guy. Kids make mistakes, then mature and can become great players. Or they can crap out.

Bottom line it has been in the press even last week. Go look it up yourself.

[ICE74129]

Ice, i know you dont want anyone but OL or DL. But unless we trade out of 8 the only OL or DL that is worth that pick is D'Brink

When you can show me no OL or DT on the BILLS official board is worth #8 then I will agree with you. Still fans have thier own opinions and that is fine, but they are usually way off of the real boards.

Lines and nothing but them until LT, LG and DT is addressed. We have been sucking for a friggin decade for ONE REASON...SH@!!y Lines! Address the lines with the best talent available.

[hydro014]

When you can show me no OL or DT on the BILLS official board is worth #8 then I will agree with you. Still fans have thier own opinions and that is fine, but they are usually way off of the real boards.

Lines and nothing but them until LT, LG and DT is addressed. We have been sucking for a friggin decade for ONE REASON...SH@!!y Lines! Address the lines with the best talent available.

Yes, these are obviously my opinions, but you also gave your opinions, which means we are both most likely "way off the real boards." So untill we get the Bills official board we can debate what we think the bills will do and are thinking on draft day. I resect your opinion and can see where your coming from, but I don't agree. I would like to see if any team has ever only taken OL or DL on the first day (when picking in the top 10), and then went on to win a superbowl within a 2-4 years.

[Philagape]

Vince Young. He has bust written all over him. He has the physical tools but doesn't have it mentally, and that's what matters more. If you think JP has trouble with NFL defenses, just wait until Vince is thrown into the fire. He'll need a LOT of time to develop and is a HUGE risk. Certainly not worth dumping a QB who's two years ahead of him (mentally, three-plus years).

For all his success on the field, it really has not come as a passer. Texas has simplified the playbook and not asked him a whole lot to beat teams through the air. Although he is improving, Young has a long way to go as a passer at the next level. His mechanics are inconsistent, which leads him to still sail or underthrow his receivers. He also tries to do too much at times through the air, forcing the ball into coverage too often. Young also tends to lock on to his receivers, which is something he will really need to work on at the next level.
http://footballsfuture.com/2006/prospects/vince_young.html'

Weaknesses:
Has an extremely awkward delivery...Mechanics might have to be reworked...Very raw as a passer and is still a better athlete than quarterback right now...Doesn't read defenses all that well...Will make some poor decisions...Needs to adjust to taking snaps from under center and playing in a pro style offense...Probably has to sit and learn for a year or two before he is ready to start at the next level.
http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/scoutingreports/qb/vinceyoung.html

[hydro014]

Ice, i really dont see us getting all OL and DL on day one:

Since 1990 only 3 teams picking in the top 10 have pick a DL or OL, in any order, in both the 1st and 2nd round, never in the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd.

NO 2003 a DT, T.
CAR 2003 a DT, C
OAK 2005 a OT, C

IN 2000 Phil took Simon (DT) at 6 , a WR with there 1st pick in the 2nd and a G with their late 2nd rounder.

[ICE74129]

your posts are so ****ing awful. In your opinion. I don't appeal to the madden generation.

Address the lines before anything else.

[ICE74129]

Ice, i really dont see us getting all OL and DL on day one:

Since 1990 only 3 teams picking in the top 10 have pick a DL or OL, in any order, in both the 1st and 2nd round, never in the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd.

NO 2003 a DT, T.
CAR 2003 a DT, C
OAK 2005 a OT, C

IN 2000 Phil took Simon (DT) at 6 , a WR with there 1st pick in the 2nd and a G with their late 2nd rounder.

They didn't have our clear cut needs. They wern't address in FA so they must be addressed in the draft. It is also rare to get a damn good talent at LT in the first and still get a damn good LG in the 2nd

[OpIv37]

When you can show me no OL or DT on the BILLS official board is worth #8 then I will agree with you. Still fans have thier own opinions and that is fine, but they are usually way off of the real boards.

Lines and nothing but them until LT, LG and DT is addressed. We have been sucking for a friggin decade for ONE REASON...SH@!!y Lines! Address the lines with the best talent available.
I agree with your assessment of the lines but I'm not sold on the draft as the way to fix them. Remember, Mike Williams was a #4 overall draft pick, and he lost his starting spot to an undrafted TE that got a 4 on the Wonderlick. And Erik Flowers- he was our first round DT pick one year that turned out to be a complete bust.

So while the lines need attention, there is no guarantee that picking an OL or DT with our 1st rounder will be any sort of help. Plus, if we pick someone that's slated to go 11-15 at #8, we're gonna be overpaying.

[ICE74129]

I agree with your assessment of the lines but I'm not sold on the draft as the way to fix them. Remember, Mike Williams was a #4 overall draft pick, and he lost his starting spot to an undrafted TE that got a 4 on the Wonderlick. And Erik Flowers- he was our first round DT pick one year that turned out to be a complete bust.

So while the lines need attention, there is no guarantee that picking an OL or DT with our 1st rounder will be any sort of help. Plus, if we pick someone that's slated to go 11-15 at #8, we're gonna be overpaying.


And I see Levi Jones that fans said was a reach. The guy is a probowl caliber tackle taken after McKennie and Williams.

But I do see what you are saying. What has better odds, taking the top 1-2 rated guy at his position according to BLESTO, your scouts etc, OR taking the 5th-7th rated guy at a lesser round? If justice or winston is there and the bills feel he can be thier LT for the next 10 years and do well, pull the trigger.

IF someone is begging to move up 2-3 spots and you can still get him, then of course, do so.

[chernobylwraiths]

I would say Leinert and Mario Williams. Leinert seems like a California boy who doesn't want to leave and Williams for all of his athletic ability, I hear he just never really dominated. Just doesn't seem like commitment. What the hell do I know? I will try to see the positive with whomever we pick.

[DraftBoy]

2. Michael Huff - Now this pick is not so much an indication of Huffs abilities, as it is the fact that there are at least 3 other STRONG safeties that i think would do just as well at SS for the bills. My ideal pick would be Bing from USC. I listened to an interview w/ Pete Carroll yesterday on Sirius, and he sold me on the guy. Bullocks is another guy that i really like for our SS spot. So again, It is not that i think Huff is not a good player.. i just feel the draft has several good safeties that fit what we need.. i am comfortable with Vincent and Baker at FS. And i actually think that Bowens may be pretty solid at SS for the time being.. so a Rookie safety may end up sitting the bench regardless.

I would like to see immediate use out of a guy that we pick at number 8. I dont think either one of these guys offer that.

There is a big reason why Bing is being asked about moving to LB like TD last year. He cant cover a TE let alone a WR. We are moving to a cover 2 and the most important aspect of that is that our S must be able to cover well. Bing is the anti-cover 2 guy. I think he'd be one hell of a hitter but he'll never be good in a cover 2 D. I dont know that Id take anything Pete Caroll says to heart, he is a little bias about his own players now if it was from a scout then Id find it more credible but as for a coach about one of his own, its equates to a rumor from some flippy reporter trying to make some noise. My two players I dont want to see;

Daryn Colledge and Haloti Ngata

[Michael82]

QB Matt Leinart - USC

QB Vince Young - Texas

QB Jay Cutler - Vanderbilt


I really feel that JP Losman is going to be a damn good Quarterback. He just needs a shot. Hopefully Levy and Jauron will realize this and let Losman have the season to develop and become the kind of QB many of us think he can be. If you are going to develop a young QB, why waste ANOTHER first round pick on one? it's a waste. I think that Vince Young is going to be a huge bust due to his throwing motion, plus the fact that he's dumber than a bag of rocks. I also think that Jay Cutler is severely overrated. Oh and then there's Matt Leinart, he's the best of the 3, but that doesn't say much.

[DraftBoy]

QB Matt Leinart - USC

QB Vince Young - Texas

QB Jay Cutler - Vanderbilt


I really feel that JP Losman is going to be a damn good Quarterback. He just needs a shot. Hopefully Levy and Jauron will realize this and let Losman have the season to develop and become the kind of QB many of us think he can be. If you are going to develop a young QB, why waste ANOTHER first round pick on one? it's a waste. I think that Vince Young is going to be a huge bust due to his throwing motion, plus the fact that he's dumber than a bag of rocks. I also think that Jay Cutler is severely overrated. Oh and then there's Matt Leinart, he's the best of the 3, but that doesn't say much.


So your against drafting any QB bc they arent good enough or just bc you like JP?

[Dozerdog]

Vernon Davis- He will be great somewhere- but we don't need him.

Jay Cutler- If you are going to take a chance on an athletic but bad school QB- stick with JP

Bunkley at 8 would be a complete waste. I'd trade down and give a team the bargain of the century to swap places with me if the Bills were sold on him as their #1

[Michael82]

So your against drafting any QB bc they arent good enough or just bc you like JP?
because of both reasons.

#1. We just used a 1st rounder last year on our "Quarterback of the future"

#2. They aren't good enough to make me change my mind.

[clumping platelets]

Vince Young

[DraftBoy]

because of both reasons.

#1. We just used a 1st rounder last year on our "Quarterback of the future"

#2. They aren't good enough to make me change my mind.


I didnt see any FO people who are still with the organization annoit JP QB of the future. Im glad you still believe in what TD and Co. said but the fact is they are gone and if Marv and Co. dont agree with the assessment there is going to be a change. I dont like the argument that I like player X, therefor I dont think he should be replaced, and this has nothing to do with trying to evaluate a players skill or a players talent level. It has everything to do with just being bias towards a player we "want" to see succeed and therfor dismiss everybody else not based solely on talent but based on favortism.

[Dozerdog]

I would say Leinert and Mario Williams. Leinert seems like a California boy who doesn't want to leave and Williams for all of his athletic ability, I hear he just never really dominated. Just doesn't seem like commitment. What the hell do I know? I will try to see the positive with whomever we pick.I would kill to get one of these guys.


California boy - Tom Brady



The Pass he threw on 4th & 17 vs Notre Dame sold me

[DraftBoy]

The Pass he threw on 4th & 17 vs Notre Dame sold me


Painful memories my friend, painful memories although they cheated to win the game.

[Dozerdog]

Painful memories my friend, painful memories although they cheated to win the game.

I agree about the outcome- but Leinart has proven over and over again he's a clutch player.


Tennesee will grab him if New Orleans can't swing a trade

[Michael82]

I didnt see any FO people who are still with the organization annoit JP QB of the future. Im glad you still believe in what TD and Co. said but the fact is they are gone and if Marv and Co. dont agree with the assessment there is going to be a change. I dont like the argument that I like player X, therefor I dont think he should be replaced, and this has nothing to do with trying to evaluate a players skill or a players talent level. It has everything to do with just being bias towards a player we "want" to see succeed and therfor dismiss everybody else not based solely on talent but based on favortism.
TD and Co are gone? :scratch:

Umm, last I saw.....Ralph Wilson is still here. Tom Modrak is still here. John Guy is still here. Doug Majeski is still here. Marc Ross is still here. Brad Forsyth and all the other scouts are still here.

Marv is not the kind of guy to ignore what all his co-workers think about the player that they drafted. Don't forget...it was the 1st rounder last year. Wasting 2 1st rounders in a row on Quarterbacks will really hurt your team. I just don't see see it happening, nor do I want it to either. :ill:

And second of all, it has NOTHING to do with bias. Yes I do like JP Losman as a player and think he's going to be a good player, but that's not the only reason. I don't think he should be tossed aside already because I think the kid has a TON of talent. Excellent arm strength, and nice ability to move around in the pocket. I watched him shine a few times last year and at times in training camp. I think he has it in him, they just gotta work with him on it and hopefully get him the experience he needs.

[DraftBoy]

TD and Co are gone? :scratch:

Umm, last I saw.....Ralph Wilson is still here. Tom Modrak is still here. John Guy is still here. Doug Majeski is still here. Marc Ross is still here. Brad Forsyth and all the other scouts are still here.

Marv is not the kind of guy to ignore what all his co-workers think about the player that they drafted. Don't forget...it was the 1st rounder last year. Wasting 2 1st rounders in a row on Quarterbacks will really hurt your team. I just don't see see it happening, nor do I want it to either. :ill:

And second of all, it has NOTHING to do with bias. Yes I do like JP Losman as a player and think he's going to be a good player, but that's not the only reason. I don't think he should be tossed aside already because I think the kid has a TON of talent. Excellent arm strength, and nice ability to move around in the pocket. I watched him shine a few times last year and at times in training camp. I think he has it in him, they just gotta work with him on it and hopefully get him the experience he needs.


Name one of the 5 you named still here from TD and Co. (I dont count Ralph Wilson as he is the owner and above all others) that annoited JP the future QB of the franchise? Whether everybody or nobody remains the point nobody still here has said anything about JP still being the QB of our future and there may be something to that dont ya think?

Wasting two 1st rounders on a QB could hurt your team no doubt, but sitting around 5-6 years waiting for a kid to develop some potential can sure as hell hurt alot more.

Mikey you can say what you want but you are yet to even remotely begin to say why you dont think Leinart, Young, or Cutler have less talent than JP or why they cant run our system any better than him. All you have said time and time again is that you like him and you think he has the potential to be a good player in this league and what a big travesty it would be if he gets cealt or cut :violin:. If you had broken down skill level (not wonderlic scores solely) then Id believe more in what you say but as it stands it just appears to me like I called you out on something and you a trying to defend yourself. None of your past posts Ive read on the subject have ever attempted to break down what you like and dont like in any of the top three QB's play, off the field, and intangible talent, and thats why I think you along with many many other fans are basing their decision to support JP more on bias than anything else, which is a perfectly fine thing to do, bc there is no guarantee I am right, and Ill be the first one to take credit for being right or the first one to take credit for being wrong, but I dont know if I am or not. Basically Im choosing to put my faith in what Marv decided to do bc unlike TD he has seen what it takes to have a capable QB, TD never saw anybody like that in his history. JP has the talent and potential but when if ever will that translate to on the field production and how long do we have to give the kid?

[The_Philster]

how long do we have to give the kid?<!-- / message -->More than 9 games, I'd hope...he showed some flashes last year..even showed he could see another QB make a mistake and he avoided making the same one.

[DraftBoy]

More than 9 games, I'd hope...he showed some flashes last year..even showed he could see another QB make a mistake and he avoided making the same one.


Im glad your happy with flashes, personally I prefer consistency but thats just one fans opinion.

And atleast keep my quote in context

[The_Philster]

How many QBs had consistency in their first season as a starter? Especially when their coach was playing musical QBs? :cynic:

[DraftBoy]

How many QBs had consistency in their first season as a starter? Especially when their coach was playing musical QBs? :cynic:


Phil you just stated two posts ago that you saw JP give you flashes of talent, well Im glad you like that and like Ive said a million times over I think JP could be a good QB in this league however unlike alot of posters Im not pleased solely by flashes, show me some consistency and Ill change my tune but till then all I hear is excuses, the coaches did this, the coaches did that, he was hurt all of last year, he is essentially still a rookie, he's never had a full year, how many more things can we think of? If you got more Ill keep the running count? Say over under on 50 by draft day? winner gets 500 ZB's?

[The_Philster]

Nice way to dodge the question :up:
Noone's saying they're pleased by flashes, but they give us hope that he could be a good one. If he didn't show at least flashes, I think I'd be about ready to give up on him

[Philagape]

There's no guarantee that Leinart, Cutler, etc. would be better than JP or take less time to develop. I think the historical percentage of high-pick busts makes any pick risky. So why trade a risk with experience for a risk with no experience with a pick that could address another severe need?

[DraftBoy]

Nice way to dodge the question :up:
Noone's saying they're pleased by flashes, but they give us hope that he could be a good one. If he didn't show at least flashes, I think I'd be about ready to give up on him


Phil your 1st issue is that your assuming I support a 1st year QB who hasnt shown consistency and for that to be true youd need proof and of which you have none. So your question makes no sense since you decided to just guess that I was only trying to make a point against JP instead of against QB's as a whole and btw a 1st year QB who showed consistency when the coach played more than just one QB would be obviously Big Ben.

[The_Philster]

so because 1 QB showed some consistency when he had a stocked team surrounding him, every first year QB should do the same..no matter what kind of team surrounds him? Both Manning brothers struggled mightily their first seasons as did Carson Palmer and many other QBs

[Michael82]

There's no guarantee that Leinart, Cutler, etc. would be better than JP or take less time to develop. I think the historical percentage of high-pick busts makes any pick risky. So why trade a risk with experience for a risk with no experience with a pick that could address another severe need?
EXACTLY!

[DraftBoy]

so because 1 QB showed some consistency when he had a stocked team surrounding him, every first year QB should do the same..no matter what kind of team surrounds him? Both Manning brothers struggled mightily their first seasons as did Carson Palmer and many other QBs


So bc I give you a QB who showed consistency and answered your question after you assumed wrongly that I was dodging it, all the sudden it doesnt count bc it was a stacked team, gimme a break? You made up a situation you thought was impossible to get an answer from and when I didnt have an immediate one you called me out on dodging it then I give you an answer but of course it gets dismissed? I should of figured...

[Michael82]

so because 1 QB showed some consistency when he had a stocked team surrounding him, every first year QB should do the same..no matter what kind of team surrounds him? Both Manning brothers struggled mightily their first seasons as did Carson Palmer and many other QBs
How about Drew Brees? How long did it take him to become a Pro Bowler? And then there's Chad Pennington...

how about Carson Palmer? He didn't start out that good. If I remember correctly, he sucked. Or maybe we can talk about Byron Leftwich? What did he do his first year? And then of course the Manning brothers like you said. Good post. :clap:

[DraftBoy]

How about Drew Brees? How long did it take him to become a Pro Bowler? And then there's Chad Pennington...

how about Carson Palmer? He didn't start out that good. If I remember correctly, he sucked. Or maybe we can talk about Byron Leftwich? What did he do his first year? And then of course the Manning brothers like you said. Good post. :clap:


Well lets not just use the modern time period then, provide me with both a list of those successful and unsuccessful from the past 50 years, and btw of the guys you name how many have a ring on their finger? I believe Big Ben does and after all that is the goal is it not?

[The_Philster]

So bc I give you a QB who showed consistency and answered your question after you assumed wrongly that I was dodging it, all the sudden it doesnt count bc it was a stacked team, gimme a break? You made up a situation you thought was impossible to get an answer from and when I didnt have an immediate one you called me out on dodging it then I give you an answer but of course it gets dismissed? I should of figured...
You gave the name of 1 QB who played well his first season...I countered that with 3 that didn't yet are solid starters in today's NFL.

[The_Philster]

Well lets not just use the modern time period then, provide me with both a list of those successful and unsuccessful from the past 50 years, and btw of the guys you name how many have a ring on their finger? I believe Big Ben does and after all that is the goal is it not?
He has a stocked team around him, also. Not saying that he wasn't a part of that Championship, but no player wins games on his own, regardless of position. The ultimate team game

[Michael82]

Well lets not just use the modern time period then, provide me with both a list of those successful and unsuccessful from the past 50 years, and btw of the guys you name how many have a ring on their finger? I believe Big Ben does and after all that is the goal is it not?
Big Ben is a different story. Put him on the Bills or most other teams, he won't be the same. :::

The only reason why he got the ring was because the Steelers built that team the right way. They built him a very tough defense, a solid OL, and a good overall team around him. It was built for a rookie QB like Big Ben to succeed and it worked. It also helped that they had a damn good head coach and coaching staff, especially compared to the moron that we had on our side. :mad: But then again, they were handed the Super bowl by the refs...so it's all a moot point. :ill:

[DraftBoy]

You gave the name of 1 QB who played well his first season...I countered that with 3 that didn't yet are solid starters in today's NFL.


You didnt ask for a specific number did you? If you wanted it you should of asked for it, the devil is in the details, also I gave you one name who has a ring you gave me three names, one who is still young and improving (Palmer), one who is a choke artist (peyton) and one nobody knows about except that he is a whiner (Eli). Not that the personal comments have anything to do with our discussion or their pertinence to the topic at hand. Phil I can keep going with you all night on this, you reall want to keep going, explain why you immediately dismissed the Big Ben answer and why you only use examples from the modern era of football and not from the past 50 years. You asked the first question and Ill ask the next just so we are taking turns and sharing fairly and all.

Can you gimme a comprehensive list (20 or so) of QB's that both were successful and unsuccessful their rookies seasons over the past 50 years and please dont allow for more than 10 of them to be from the modern era of football (past decade)? I just want to have a fair statistical analysis for our debate. I got you your answer, now can you give me mine?

[Michael82]

He has a stocked team around him, also. Not saying that he wasn't a part of that Championship, but no player wins games on his own, regardless of position. The ultimate team game
EXACTLY!

[DraftBoy]

He has a stocked team around him, also. Not saying that he wasn't a part of that Championship, but no player wins games on his own, regardless of position. The ultimate team game

Same thing, different wrapping, your still trying to dismiss my answer for no valid reason.

[DraftBoy]

Big Ben is a different story. Put him on the Bills or most other teams, he won't be the same. :::




Pure speculation, the steelers would not of even been close without him.

[Michael82]

the steelers would not of even been close without him.
Pure speculation. :::

[DraftBoy]

Pure speculation. :::


If you could do it, I can to and its not pure speculation bc if you base it on the trend the team was on prior to Ben and the trend they were on thereafter. I have stats on the side of my speculation you have nothing on the side of your speculation.

[The_Philster]

How many QBs had consistency in their first season as a starter? I'd say that's exactly what I did


You didnt ask for a specific number did you?

[DraftBoy]

I'd say that's exactly what I did


And yet you didnt ask for a specific number did you? I knew exactly what you said which is why I said what I said bc you didnt say a specific number you asked me to name how many guys, based on my knowledge (which isnt by any means vast) I named the one I could in all of 15 mins between posts. Had you asked for 2 or 5 or 50 I would of told you I couldnt of named them, not my fault or concern that you didnt. You left the door open I just walked through it.

[The_Philster]

Same thing, different wrapping, your still trying to dismiss my answer for no valid reason.
My valid reason is that you seem to be placing it all on the QB..it's a team game...wins-losses isn't a QB stat nor should it be.
For my money, John Elway was the best all-around QB I've ever seen play...yet he wasn't going to win anything without a solid team surrounding him.

[DraftBoy]

My valid reason is that you seem to be placing it all on the QB..it's a team game...wins-losses isn't a QB stat nor should it be.
For my money, John Elway was the best all-around QB I've ever seen play...yet he wasn't going to win anything without a solid team surrounding him.


Where did I say it was all on the QB? Again that another assumption your making you asked me to name a QB who played with consistency in his 1st season, you didnt specify whether the team had to be crappy or good. If you wanted specifics you need to detail them. Coming back later and dismissing the answer bc you dont like it doesnt change the fact that you asked a simple question and I gave you a simple answer.

[The_Philster]

Pure speculation, the steelers would not of even been close without him.One QB who played decent ball, not great, was what put the Steelers deep in the playoffs in 2004?

[DraftBoy]

One QB who played decent ball, not great, was what put the Steelers deep in the playoffs in 2004?


and won them the Super Bowl in 2005 by the logic your trying to apply to my quote. But again for now the 3rd time your putting words in my mouth and making an assumption.

[The_Philster]

I put a question mark in there...indicating that I was asking if that's what you were implying. And honestly, I don't see how 2005 enters into it. Big Ben was in his 2nd season in 2005...if this is still about JP, then he hasn't entered into that situation yet.

[Philagape]

Whatever role Ben played in Pittsburgh's success, it cannot be disputed that when it comes to QB development, he is the exception, not the rule.

[Michael82]

Whatever role Ben played in Pittsburgh's success, it cannot be disputed that when it comes to QB development, he is the exception, not the rule.
exactly.

[TigerJ]

You didn't limit this to first round. I'll say Vince Young. He's going to be a long term development project for whatever team drafts him. Buffalo fans will not give as long as he's going to need. I don't want to see Gabe Watson picked in the second round. It's amazing the people who don't like Ngata that want Buffalo to pick Watson. They're both run pluggers, except Ngata is better. If Ngata doesn't fit the new defensive scheme then Watson doesn't either.

[Night Train]

If we are able to trade down in Round 1, then it's very likely we WOULD draft only lineman in the 1st 2 rounds. We'd probably pick up an extra 2nd and draft a G,OT,DT in any order. Then probably another Lineman with at least 1 of the 3rd's.

If we stick at #8, then it's the best athlete available who isn't a QB,WR or RB.

[Captain Obvious]

1) Jimmy Williams---because he is a cornerback
2) Jay Cutler----overrated..wasn't a winner in college..not worthy of being picked 8th

[Tatonka]

I didnt see any FO people who are still with the organization annoit JP QB of the future.

are you saying that Modrack had nothing to do with the drafting and scouting of JP?? and our scouting department has been overhauled??

[Tatonka]

Im glad your happy with flashes, personally I prefer consistency but thats just one fans opinion.

And atleast keep my quote in context

do you think you can gauge any qb and he well he will perform in the future by looking at the first half of his rookie season?

do you think that any of the qbs in this draft will come in and do better in their first 8 games?

the point is not that jp is better or worse.. he may be either.. but you dont draft guys and then cut them after they start 8 games.. carson palmer, peyton manning, steve young.. the list goes on forever as far as qbs that would have been out of the game if they were even remotely judged on their first 8 games..

look at drew brees.. he looked awful for a long time.. just showing flashes here and there.. then they built a team around him and wow.. image what happened.. he turned into a damn good qb who just signed a new contract for a gazillion dollars.

all the people that want jp cut/traded or whatever... i want to know..

lets say somehow, someway.. leinart fell to us.. we draft him at 8.. holcombe starts the season.. leinart takes over and does poorly for 4 games.. holcombe comes back in.. gets hurt.. and leinart finishes the season.. he finishes with 8 tds and 8 ints..

then '07 rolls around.. are you ready to cut lienart and draft someone new again?

am i the only one who sees how absurd that sounds? christ.. alex smith had ONE TD and 12 INTS!!!! and they are not cutting/trading him... but our guy puts up 8/8 and he is trash that you give away for some other teams second day pick???

come on.. anyone who thinks that is high.. seriously.

[Tatonka]

Phil your 1st issue is that your assuming I support a 1st year QB who hasnt shown consistency and for that to be true youd need proof and of which you have none. So your question makes no sense since you decided to just guess that I was only trying to make a point against JP instead of against QB's as a whole and btw a 1st year QB who showed consistency when the coach played more than just one QB would be obviously Big Ben.

GREAT! big ben and dan marino.. 2 in how many qbs over the history of the nfl?

they are two RARE exceptions (although big ben was not always great his rookie year, but his great team won games when he played bad)..

the fact that you would even use big ben as your one example, when really you could only list two, just told me alot.

all i can say DB is that i thought you were a lot smarter than your posts are making you look.

[SABURZFAN]

Vince Young and Jay Cutler, QB's - neither are ready to step in and contribute right away, both are going to need time to develop. We've already got a guy like that on the roster at the moment, and one's enough.

Personally I don't see Young panning out anyway, and I think the transition to the pro level is going to be difficult for him. You don't get by in the big leagues on physical ability alone, especially at the QB spot. Pencil Vince in as a first-round bust right now, as far as I'm concerned.

Cutler should at least develop into a nice starter somewhere, but we don't have the time, or the team, to start the growing pain process all over again.



i agree.we've wasted enough draft picks on QB's too.

[Tatonka]

Well lets not just use the modern time period then, provide me with both a list of those successful and unsuccessful from the past 50 years, and btw of the guys you name how many have a ring on their finger? I believe Big Ben does and after all that is the goal is it not?

that is the stupidest ****ing post i have ever seen from you..

****ing trent dilfer has a ring too.. i guess you would die to have him here..

hell.. rob johnson has a ring.. THAT IS THE GOAL IS IT NOT?

unbelievable. i am done.

[tampabay25690]

My 2 guys i dont want

Haloti Ngata - every game i watched he gave up on a lot of plays. He seemed to get tired quick and has had injuries other than his ACL tear. I know that he dosent fit into a cover 2 scheme, but thats not why i dont want him.

Jay Cutler - The only way i want a QB is if JP is gone. I would like to see JP given a real chance with more than 1 season under his belt, even though it was only 8 games. Holcumbs a backup and always will be, Nall is still to unproven for me to be sold on him as a starter. If they do take a QB i dont feel Cutler can do any better than most rookie QBs, so that means we have to wait to find out if he's any good for at least another 3 yrs. I like leinart and young, but i think they will both be gone. Again this is only if they are done with JP, which i dont think they should be yet.

Im with you on Ngata, but I like Cutler I see alot of SEC games and he has always performed.

The guy I dont want to see in a BILLS uniform is Vince Young his arm strength is iffy...

[Mr. Pink]

My valid reason is that you seem to be placing it all on the QB..it's a team game...wins-losses isn't a QB stat nor should it be.
For my money, John Elway was the best all-around QB I've ever seen play...yet he wasn't going to win anything without a solid team surrounding him.

Not completely true...John Elway took 3 average teams to SBs beating a superior Browns team in 86 and 87 in the conference championship game. He took a solid Broncos team to 2 championships at the tail end of his career. His RBs in 86-87 were Gerald Wilhite, Sammy Winder and Steve Sewell. Mark Jackson wasn't nearly as good as Andre Reed and that was his main receiver. And the defense wasn't loaded with "household" names. In the 86 season AFC title game, John pretty much took the team on his shoulders on the "drive." And in 87 the Broncos tried to give the Browns the game, til Earnest Byner decided to carry the ball like a loaf a bread at the goal line, oh yeah, Webster Slaughter also missed his block. But Phil, you and I are in agreement of Elway being the best QB we've ever seen play. And it's the 86-89 seasons why I say that. He carried those teams to the Superbowl.

[Tatonka]

but he didnt win until he had a complete team.

and a great TE i might add.. *coughvernondaviscough*

[Mr. Pink]

GREAT! big ben and dan marino.. 2 in how many qbs over the history of the nfl?

they are two RARE exceptions (although big ben was not always great his rookie year, but his great team won games when he played bad)..

the fact that you would even use big ben as your one example, when really you could only list two, just told me alot.

all i can say DB is that i thought you were a lot smarter than your posts are making you look.

4 rookie QBs out of the last 21 had winning records as a QB....Kerry Collins in 95 with the Panthers, Kyle Boller with the 03 Ravens, Kyle Orton last year and then of course Big Ben. Tim Couch also threw more TDs than picks as a rookie on a TERRIBLE team in 1999...15tds 13ints. Shaun King as a rookie in 99 took the Bucs to the NFC championship game. Vick in his first season as starter took the ATL to the playoffs, as a rookie he saw limited action, much like JP. Bernie Kosar in 85 took the Browns to the playoffs losing to Miami in the first round....and Otto Graham as a rookie in 46 took the Browns to an AAFC title, then in 1950, his first year in the NFL, took the Browns to an NFL title. I can list more, but YES, some QBs are successful, depending on what you see as success....but most completely suck.

[Tatonka]

excellent post, funtimes

[Mr. Pink]

excellent post, funtimes

Thanks :smile:

But to what guys I wouldn't want to see drafted in Rd1 where the bills sit now.

Winston Justice-All the reasons have been said on this guy....besides ONE major thing I've seen on his scouting reports....the fact he needs to hit the weight room religiously to bulk up to not be overpowered by stronger d-lineman. To me, that's a HUGE stay away from. Even if the Bills were to trade down, I still don't want him.

Jay Cutler-to me reminds me too much of the guy we had back there for part of the year already. PLUS he had a losing record as the Vandy QB. To me winning is a good sign of leadership qualities and KNOWING how to win is important. I don't care for the stats as much as long as you know how to put Ws up.

[LtFinFan66]

AJ Hawk

Because I am a Buckeye fan and don't want you guys to have him! Kills me having Nugent kicking for the Jets! :sad:

[Tatonka]

AJ Hawk

Because I am a Buckeye fan and don't want you guys to have him! Kills me having Nugent kicking for the Jets! :sad:

your opinion absolutely does not matter. :couch:

:up:

[LtFinFan66]

I know but that never stops me from posting it anyway :up:

[Michael82]

are you saying that Modrack had nothing to do with the drafting and scouting of JP?? and our scouting department has been overhauled??
Good post, T! :bf1:

[TigerJ]

I know but that never stops me from posting it anyway :up:

I love it when Bills fans get on your back about being a Fin Fan, and you just let it rolloff you like a slicker in a spring shower. You have the prefect personality to be a regular on an enemy fan site.

[mysticsoto]

Personally, I've never liked Tamba Hali. For some reason, I think he's going to be another Erik Flowers...

I'm really iffy on Ngata also - not just b'cse he doesn't really appear motivated when playing, but also b'cse of his past injuries. He seems to be relying solely on his size to get a big paycheck and not working toward being the best he can be!

Say no to Sinorice Moss. We already have enough smurf WRs on our team!

[Tatonka]

db.. sorry for getting nasty yesterday.. i was just pissy all day..

i guess it is frustrating because i know your a smart smart football guy.. and i know that you cant really think that it makes sense to just draft qb after qb and give them 8 games.. if they dont look like hall of famers, then throw them away for less than a quarter of what you gave up for them, and draft another..

you know as well as i do.. that philosophy will put a team in the gutter for decades.

i am not saying jp is the answer.. all i am saying is that i am willing to suffer another year if necessary to find out..we are not winning it all this year anyways.

[BillsNick]

db.. sorry for getting nasty yesterday.. i was just pissy all day..

i guess it is frustrating because i know your a smart smart football guy.. and i know that you cant really think that it makes sense to just draft qb after qb and give them 8 games.. if they dont look like hall of famers, then throw them away for less than a quarter of what you gave up for them, and draft another..
you know as well as i do.. that philosophy will put a team in the gutter for decades.
i am not saying jp is the answer.. all i am saying is that i am willing to suffer another year if necessary to find out..we are not winning it all this year anyways.

I'm with ya Tatonka. Give the kid one more year, THEN dump him if he still sucks.

[dplus47]

AJ Hawk

Because I am a Buckeye fan and don't want you guys to have him! Kills me having Nugent kicking for the Jets! :sad:

i agree 100%. winfield and clements were bad enough. and even reggie germany!

[dplus47]

I'm with ya Tatonka. Give the kid one more year, THEN dump him if he still sucks.

this makes sense in a lot of ways, especially since this is viewed as a multi-year rebuilding. get the foundation going and see what you have at QB, then, if you need to, grab a guy next year who will have a lot better chance because there will be a better team around him.

[The_Philster]

i agree 100%. winfield and clements were bad enough. and even reggie germany!
Marlon Kerner and Chris Spielman were good players for us as well... ;)

[dplus47]

Marlon Kerner and Chris Spielman were good players for us as well... ;)

true, that. i'm hoping holmes, mangold, carpenter, and hawk either end up in miami (not likely) or in the NFC.

i think clements has caused me psychological damage. imagine one of your favorite college players becoming a serious thorn in the bills' side. i mean a taking-picks-back-to-the-house thorn.

this year's first round is gonna be a must-see...

[The_Philster]

true, that. i'm hoping holmes, mangold, carpenter, and hawk either end up in miami (not likely) or in the NFC.

i think clements has caused me psychological damage. imagine one of your favorite college players becoming a serious thorn in the bills' side. i mean a taking-picks-back-to-the-house thorn.

this year's first round is gonna be a must-see...
I know how you feel....I hate seeing Penn State players in Fish colors :ill:

[LifetimeBillsFan]

I don't want to get into any "range-war" over this because it will just be more repetition of arguments that have been made in hundreds of posts thus far, so please just accept that this is how I feel:

1.) While it is very possible that one of the "Big 3" QBs will still be on the board when the Bills pick in the first round, I don't want the Bills to pick any QB in this draft early on. The Bills have to find out what they have on their roster already at the position and none of the QBs in this draft, with the possible exception of Leinart--who won't be there at # 8--is likely to be able to step in and play any better this year than the QBs that they have. If the guys they have can't get the job done, the team will be in a position to draft a good QB next year because they will not do that well this year in any event (and B.Quinn might be a better NFL QB prospect than any of the QBs in this draft anyway).

2A.) Marcus McNeill--Despite his impressive physical attributes, the guy showed that he has problems pass blocking against top talent and will get killed in the NFL unless he dramatically improves--but, if he hasn't learned enough to keep up on the college level, it's doubtful that he can do so quickly on the pro level. The Bills need a guy who is tougher and will develop faster.

2B.) Gabe Watson--If Ngata doesn't fit the scheme, then neither does Watson and Watson has shown that he can be lazier than Ngata.

Also, I have serious concerns about Eric Winston due to the way that he played after his knee injury--especially in his bowl game and in the Senior Bowl. Because so much depends on whether he will regain his former agility and be consistently aggressive, I see him as a boom or bust pick and I do not believe that the Bills can afford a boom or bust pick at this point. I can't say that I absolutely do not want the Bills to draft him, but I would have some concerns if they did.

[DraftBoy]

db.. sorry for getting nasty yesterday.. i was just pissy all day..

i guess it is frustrating because i know your a smart smart football guy.. and i know that you cant really think that it makes sense to just draft qb after qb and give them 8 games.. if they dont look like hall of famers, then throw them away for less than a quarter of what you gave up for them, and draft another..

you know as well as i do.. that philosophy will put a team in the gutter for decades.

i am not saying jp is the answer.. all i am saying is that i am willing to suffer another year if necessary to find out..we are not winning it all this year anyways.


I have absolutely no issue with this way of doing things and have states many times I think JP should be given this year, hell I think the best QB in the draft can be had in the 5th round just look at my sig. Kid is amazing (but more on him to come later). But and its a big but this is the thing I presented to Mikey.

Its been shown to me and to all of us through Levy's comments, the trade rumors (i dont think they are just fictional), the Nall signing and Levy's comments after that. That he and his staff have little to no faith left in JP Losman. Personally I still have a lot of faith left in him. I think he may be one hell of a QB, but I am not willing to sit around another year and watch a musical chairs game happen again. I would much rather them use a top DP, and take a QB who they will atleast stick with in good and bad, rather than see JP be fed to the Wolves again and get yanked after every mistake, bc imo that ******s our progress much more than it could possibly ever help us. Yes the idea is somewhat speculative but its not a reach by any means, so if the staff has no faith in him, why should we be rooting for him start when he is going to be pretty much doomed to fail??

Also T, no big dude, I wasnt even around yesterday I had to go to some public city hearings that took all friggin day. So dont sweat it, its all good. I know you can get just as fired up as I can. Your still my boy, but Im gonna have to go back and edit the posts to add the word poo.

[Tatonka]

:rofl: poo.

[TheGhostofJimKelly]

I can't believe it, I completely agree with Tatonka.

[dplus47]

I know how you feel....I hate seeing Penn State players in Fish colors :ill:
so do you have a shane conlan jersey? i imagine that must have been a good time for you as a kid...

btw, thanks for o.j. mcduffie.

[The_Philster]

so do you have a shane conlan jersey? i imagine that must have been a good time for you as a kid... no...wasn't into football back then...but I did have some friends a few years back who were in his neighborhood growing up


btw, thanks for o.j. mcduffie.
:mad:

[Tatonka]

I can't believe it, I completely agree with Tatonka.

who the hell are you? the real "GhostofJimKelly" was abducted about a year ago.

:couch: