You are right guys

[THATHURMANATOR]

**** it then. Might as well stop following them.....

[Dozerdog]

I agree with ya- I feel the same way about the Yankees and O&A myself, Thurm!

[ICE74129]

**** it then. Might as well stop following them.....

It aint over yet. But it will be unless Ralph sells.

[HAMMER]

It aint over yet. But it will be unless Ralph sells.

You are correct, if he really wants to ensure the Bills stay in Buffalo he should be shopping the team right now. Only selling to a group that will keep them in Buffalo as a condition of the sale.

[socalfan]

You can't legally structure an agreement that forces the other party to keep the Bills in Buffalo.

[ICE74129]

You can't legally structure an agreement that forces the other party to keep the Bills in Buffalo.

No but there are a couple groups and a billionare or two that might keep them there.

[socalfan]

Think about it. What business owner purchases a business with the intent of slowly watching it loose money? That is exactly what Ralph is talking about.

The problem is that as the high revenue teams continue to bring in higher revenue, and the lower revenue teams will be forced to subsidize them. The Bills aren't paying out 60% of the Bills revenues and Washington isn't paying out 60% of Washington's revenues. The Bills are being asked to pay out 1/32 of the total NFL revenues. If the Bills only had to pay out 60% of their revenues, they could stay in business.

[BAM]

****ing Orioles dammit.

[RedEyE]

You're so dramatic Thurm! :rofl:

[Mr. Pink]

UGH! I guess this needs to be posted here as well.....

<TABLE class=tborder id=post1428048 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=3 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD class=alt1 id=td_post_1428048>I don't see how anyone can say that the Bills aren't make money nor can Ralph afford to keep the team here....Every team in the NFL makes money where they are located except the Cardinals in 04 they showed about a 5 million dollar lose....Who aren't moving, they just got a new stadium. And they have the LOWEST revenue in the league. The Bills have MORE revenue than 8 other teams including the Colts and Chargers-two of the better AFC teams.

So why are we under this misconception that the team may due to NOT making enough money? Or another owner won't keep the team in Buffalo because it doesn't make money? In 04 he showed an operating revenue of 28.5 million dollars. I'd hate to make that much year, really.

Here's a link to every NFL team with 04 revenues, operating revenue and such....
http://www.forbes.com/2004/09/01/04nfland.html

They are NOWHERE near in financial peril nor anywhere near out of business.
<!-- / message --></TD></TR><TR><TD class=alt2></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[dplus47]

<table class="tborder" id="post1428048" align="center" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr valign="top"><td class="alt1" id="td_post_1428048">

They are NOWHERE near in financial peril nor anywhere near out of business.
<!-- / message --></td></tr><tr><td class="alt2"></td></tr></tbody></table>

we have been trained to sympathize with rich men who aren't making all they want to make. we equate it to a normal person's "losing" money, when it isn't the case. we need to learn to question this at some point.

[Drive 4 Five]

Well look at what New England did. I could be wrong but I am going to head out on a limb here to say that before they got that shiny new stadium, and won all those championships, they weren't anything special. That region is known for Red Sox baseball, not Patriots football. At least it used to be that way. Again I'm just speculating here but if they did it why can't the Bills? Maybe Ralph really is out of his league anymore with they way the business aspect of the game has changed. Instead of Ralph Wilson Stadium you have to go Verizon Field or whatever. Maybe not the best example but I'm sure you gents get what I am trying to say here. If people can get excited about the Arizona Cardinals or the St. Louis Rams, why not Buffalo?

Here is another thing I do not understand. Why is the league so driven to put another team in Los Angeles. They've gone that route already, and there has to be a reason teams like the Rams and Raiders left. If the Bills are ever moved from Buffalo, I will stop watching NFL games until they get a team in New Mexico (highly doubtful) or maybe if I end up moving to Colorado someday. I kinda dig the Broncos but the Bills will always be my number one and I just don't think I could stand to see a team like the Bills become extinct. Where else do the Bills belong if not in Buffalo.

Man it is hard to even fathom.

[dplus47]

Well look at what New England did. I could be wrong but I am going to head out on a limb here to say that before they got that shiny new stadium, and won all those championships, they weren't anything special. That region is known for Red Sox baseball, not Patriots football. At least it used to be that way. Again I'm just speculating here but if they did it why can't the Bills? Maybe Ralph really is out of his league anymore with they way the business aspect of the game has changed. Instead of Ralph Wilson Stadium you have to go Verizon Field or whatever. Maybe not the best example but I'm sure you gents get what I am trying to say here. If people can get excited about the Arizona Cardinals or the St. Louis Rams, why not Buffalo?

Here is another thing I do not understand. Why is the league so driven to put another team in Los Angeles. They've gone that route already, and there has to be a reason teams like the Rams and Raiders left. If the Bills are ever moved from Buffalo, I will stop watching NFL games until they get a team in New Mexico (highly doubtful) or maybe if I end up moving to Colorado someday. I kinda dig the Broncos but the Bills will always be my number one and I just don't think I could stand to see a team like the Bills become extinct. Where else do the Bills belong if not in Buffalo.

Man it is hard to even fathom.

LA is a priority because of the large source of local TV revenue. it's a huge market. most people here are lukewarm about a team, but we may get one anyway.

i don't know why a shiny new stadium wouldn't work in buffalo. are there enough businesses close enough to fill the luxury suites?

[Voltron]

we have been trained to sympathize with rich men who aren't making all they want to make. we equate it to a normal person's "losing" money, when it isn't the case. we need to learn to question this at some point.
Karl Marx!?? Do you live again!!?? :eek:









:rolleyes: Give me a break.

[Voltron]

LA is a priority because of the large source of local TV revenue. it's a huge market. most people here are lukewarm about a team, but we may get one anyway.

i don't know why a shiny new stadium wouldn't work in buffalo. are there enough businesses close enough to fill the luxury suites?
business and Buffalo in the same sentance is kinda like an oxymoron.

:idunno:

[Drive 4 Five]

LA is a priority because of the large source of local TV revenue. it's a huge market. most people here are lukewarm about a team, but we may get one anyway.

i don't know why a shiny new stadium wouldn't work in buffalo. are there enough businesses close enough to fill the luxury suites?

Yeah but my point is that if the market is so great, why did not one but two teams leave for Oakland & St. Loius? That doesn't make any sense. Hell there may have been more for all I know. Those are just the two that come to mind. There has to be a reason it didn't work. Greedy corporate bastards.

Did you mean to say that a new stadium in Buffalo would not work? I didn't quite understand what you were trying to say there.

[dplus47]

Karl Marx!?? Do you live again!!?? :eek:









:rolleyes: Give me a break.

i'm not big into marx, but you don't have to be to see that americans constantly:

place the interests of business over their own interests

and

almost always side with management over labor in any labor dispute, regardless of the issues.

maybe we just do this on our own, believing we will be one of the ultra-rich one day.

[dplus47]

Yeah but my point is that if the market is so great, why did not one but two teams leave for Oakland & St. Loius? That doesn't make any sense. Hell there may have been more for all I know. Those are just the two that come to mind. There has to be a reason it didn't work. Greedy corporate bastards.

Did you mean to say that a new stadium in Buffalo would not work? I didn't quite understand what you were trying to say there.

i didn't mean to say it won't work (how's that for negatives?). it might work. i was sorta thinking aloud on the luxury suites issue, because that's a huge part of the revenue of a new stadium.

[Drive 4 Five]

business and Buffalo in the same sentance is kinda like an oxymoron.

:idunno:

That's what it comes down to in the end I suppose. How sad. Still, I am a little confused. You guys do pretty well up there with attendance and all and I have always been under the impression that all of Western NY flocks to Orchard Park every Sunday, that they have great support in that entire region. Obviously I am not from NY or anywhere close but...

[Drive 4 Five]

i didn't mean to say it won't work (how's that for negatives?). it might work. i was sorta thinking aloud on the luxury suites issue, because that's a huge part of the revenue of a new stadium.

I gotcha. Thanks. Well Vol seems to think not and I believe he is from those parts. L.A. Bills? Now that will never ever work.

[dplus47]

as for the raiders and the rams leaving, i haven't done a lot of homework on it. however, we all know that al davis is going to do what he wants to do. the coliseum was old and he saw more money elsewhere. the rams were stuck down in anaheim, and they cashed in on the deal with st. louis. if i had to guess, i'd say stadium issues were big in both moves.

the taxpayers in LA will not pay for a stadium so somebody else can make money off it. the league will keep trying to get a team here because it's still one of the top 3 local television markets in the country.

[Voltron]

That's what it comes down to in the end I suppose. How sad. Still, I am a little confused. You guys do pretty well up there with attendance and all and I have always been under the impression that all of Western NY flocks to Orchard Park every Sunday, that they have great support in that entire region. Obviously I am not from NY or anywhere close but...
I was driving over 300 miles a day to attend games, <st1:City><st1:place>Syracuse</st1:place></st1:City> to OP. Many people drive the hour from Rochester, Many come from Canada, and then you get the others sprinkled in from all over like NYC, PA, etc.


They recently did a study in some Buffalo Buisness periotical that showed that Buffalo does not have the economy to support two Major leage teams. Lots of boring math and stuff but the point is that Buffalo may be smaller than GreenBay soon and they have waiting lists 10 to 20 years long for season tickets.



It looks very Grim. :(

:idunno:

[Drive 4 Five]

I was driving over 300 miles a day to attend games, <st1:City><st1:place>Syracuse</st1:place></st1:City> to OP. Many people drive the hour from Rochester, Many come from Canada, and then you get the others sprinkled in from all over like NYC, PA, etc.


They recently did a study in some Buffalo Buisness periotical that showed that Buffalo does not have the economy to support two Major leage teams. Lots of boring math and stuff but the point is that Buffalo may be smaller than GreenBay soon and they have waiting lists 10 to 20 years long for season tickets.



It looks very Grim. :(

:idunno:

:ill:

Man that makes me just feel like...like...well POOP I guess. POOP.

[dplus47]

I was driving over 300 miles a day to attend games, <st1:city><st1:place>Syracuse</st1:place></st1:city> to OP. Many people drive the hour from Rochester, Many come from Canada, and then you get the others sprinkled in from all over like NYC, PA, etc.


They recently did a study in some Buffalo Buisness periotical that showed that Buffalo does not have the economy to support two Major leage teams. Lots of boring math and stuff but the point is that Buffalo may be smaller than GreenBay soon and they have waiting lists 10 to 20 years long for season tickets.



It looks very Grim. :(

:idunno:

doesn't buffalo pretty much always sell out?

such loyalty HAS to be rewarded. if there are football gods, it's time for them to do their thing...

[Drive 4 Five]

doesn't buffalo pretty much always sell out?

such loyalty HAS to be rewarded. if there are football gods, it's time for them to do their thing...

That's for sure.

:pray:

[realdealryan]

I have always been sympathetic.......however.....



would we be having this discussion if Norwood could kick on grass?

[socalfan]

UGH! I guess this needs to be posted here as well.....

................. The Bills have MORE revenue than 8 other teams including the Colts and Chargers-two of the better AFC teams.

So why are we under this misconception that the team may due to NOT making enough money? Or another owner won't keep the team in Buffalo because it doesn't make money? In 04 he showed an operating revenue of 28.5 million dollars. I'd hate to make that much year, really......................



So if we project this out....

YEAR Revenue Operating Expense Cap Operating Revenue
2004 178 million 36 million 80 million 23.5 million
2005 185 36 85 25.5
2006 190 36 102 13.5
2007 195 36 112 8.5
2008 202 36 122 5.5


Assuming they hold operating expense fixed at the 2004 year levels and they are able to increase revenues by about 3% and you accept the CAP figures projected by the player association....it isn't too long before the Bills spending up to CAP would be under water.

I think what Ralph is saying is....maybe not tomorrow or in the next several years, but eventually, we are hosed.

Can the Bills increase revenues as quickly as the CAP increases and operating expenses increase??

[Mr. Pink]

So if we project this out....

YEAR Revenue Operating Expense Cap Operating Revenue
2004 178 million 36 million 80 million 23.5 million
2005 185 36 85 25.5
2006 190 36 102 13.5
2007 195 36 112 8.5
2008 202 36 122 5.5


Assuming they hold operating expense fixed at the 2004 year levels and they are able to increase revenues by about 3% and you accept the CAP figures projected by the player association....it isn't too long before the Bills spending up to CAP would be under water.

I think what Ralph is saying is....maybe not tomorrow or in the next several years, but eventually, we are hosed.

Can the Bills increase revenues as quickly as the CAP increases and operating expenses increase??

I dig the thought you put into the reply :posrep: The whole 1 I can give, but still.....

The Bills NEED to be able to putting a winning product on the field and soon, with that, they can raise ticket prices 2-5% without any public outcry and raise revenues. Raise beer prices a quarter. Charge a dollar or 3 more per replica jersey. Raise program costs. Parking costs a dollar. A little here and there adds up for more revenues. AND BY ALL MEANS, let some corporate sponsor pay for stadium naming rights.

Those are some ways to raise revenue to not put yourself into a financial hole, if the projections you have are accurate. And no you don't need to do all of these, but here and there. The main thing is to sell stadium naming rights.

JMHO

[socalfan]

................
The Bills NEED to be able to putting a winning product on the field and soon, with that, they can raise ticket prices 2-5%

Raise beer prices a quarter.

Charge a dollar or 3 more per replica jersey.

Raise program costs.

Parking costs a dollar............



So let's see what we get....

if there are 70,000 seats at the Ralph and everyone goes for $100 now, then a 5% hike would bring in an additional $5 per seat....so that's $350,000 per game and so for the preseason and home games that's 10 games so we have an additional $3.5 million in revenue. Oh, wait! We share with the visting team....so we have $1.75 million in additional revenue

Suppose the fans really like beer and all 70,000 order 4 each. At a quarter a beer that brings in $70,000 per game and $700,000 per season.

I think all 70,000 fans would love a replica jersey of for each of the home games and the preseason games...so $210,000 per game and that means $2.1 million per season.

Next, $2 increase per program for all 70,000 faithful fans... per game for the season means an additional $1.4 millon.

Next parking, how about an increase of $20 per car....and suppose that the fans come in pairs. So, $20 for each of 35,000 cars per game...for 10 games...that's a whooping $7 million.


So the grand total of increased revenues is 12.95 million. And all the Bills had to do was for every game including the preseason get every one of the 70,000 fans to pay $5 per seat more, drink 4 beers per game, buy a replica jersey each game, buy a program, and park their car for an additional parking fee of $20.

Seems, like there should be an easier way to get the 12.95 million......like revenue sharing???


Big revenue teams charge outrageous prices and the fans buy in about the quantities mentioned above. It costs me about $200 to see a Dolts game sitting up in the nose bleed sections. What's it cost to see a Bill's game?

[chernobylwraiths]

Volt is from the Syracuse area I believe.

As one poster said, it's not as if the Bills will be losing money, it just won't make as much as the big market teams. Boo freaking whoo.

[Mitchy moo]

It aint over yet. But it will be unless Ralph sells.

Wow, everything I have posted seems to be sinking in now. RW needs to hand the keys off & We are going to need a major dose of luck to get near .500 this year.

Pray for Young or a real QB drafted to build on. The one's we have now are useless.

[Historian]

Even if Mr. Wilson passed on, I don't think anything would happen right away.

Funny how our stadium, which was state of the art when it was built, is now practically an antique.

And for whomever said, Don't we sell out all the time? Yes, we do. We've consistantly sold out since they dropped the seating of the staduim from 80,290 to 73,967.

With all the pre-paid luxury seating, that means that the team only has to sell roughly 63,000 open air seats, with about 40,000 of those being season ticket holders.

The seating is not the problem. Like Mr. Wilson said, it's these side deals that the larger markets are cutting with big business in their cities, ie...Nobody bothers to attend Falcon's games, but Coca-Cola is there to subsidize the team. (Just one example)

[don137]

Unfortunately, I have accepted the fact that in about 10 years I feel the Bills will no longer be in Buffalo. The NFL is getting too big for the Buffalo region to support and be competitive. There isn't the big businesses there to support the team with side deals or paying extremely high prices for suites like other cities. If Buffalo started doing what many other cities and sold personal seat licenses for the right to buy season tickets and sold tickets at the NFL average the season ticket base would drop almost in half. Its going to be a very very sad day when it happens but I do not see a way for Buffalo to survive in the long term in Buffalo given the direction.

[acehole]

The value of this team is allmost a billion dollars...

That talk with pataki was about how much of that has to go for taxes.....

LA bills just doesnt sound right.....

More like

LA Capichino's

or LA Salad bars or LA Banditos......

if it happens wont happen for another 5 years...though.

[Mitchy moo]

Unfortunately, I have accepted the fact that in about 10 years I feel the Bills will no longer be in Buffalo. The NFL is getting too big for the Buffalo region to support and be competitive. There isn't the big businesses there to support the team with side deals or paying extremely high prices for suites like other cities. If Buffalo started doing what many other cities and sold personal seat licenses for the right to buy season tickets and sold tickets at the NFL average the season ticket base would drop almost in half. Its going to be a very very sad day when it happens but I do not see a way for Buffalo to survive in the long term in Buffalo given the direction.

Maybe if they can develop the downtown area and attract some real businesses there, you might have a chance.
There is gambling and a tourism industry, can't you milk that??

[Voltron]

Maybe if they can develop the downtown area and attract some real businesses there, you might have a chance.
There is gambling and a tourism industry, can't you milk that??
To do that you would have to some how get the New York State Legislator to be a bit more business friendly and not so tax happy. Not trying to make this political. Both parties are to blame for the mess we have.

Many business' either require an office in NYC or the business likes having the prestige that comes with a mid-town address. Well here in upstate we don't have that, yet business are expected to be taxed the same (state wise).

This State is coming to a head. We have a large population of elderly that will need medical care and other help yet we continue to spend money on stupid crap like a 12 year old on their first payday. Until we fix the ENTIRE New York Economy the State will continue to lose population, tax base, and businesses, Including the Buffalo Bills. :sad:

[BillsNick]

I a few simple questions. What if the LA market get it's team (not the Bills) within the next few years? Are we still having this discussion? Are we still in danger? What if the football gods show some love and we actually start winning in the near future? What if Golisano chips in on purchasing the team? Lots of "What ifs", ya know?

[Historian]

Many business' either require an office in NYC or the business likes having the prestige that comes with a mid-town address. Well here in upstate we don't have that, yet business are expected to be taxed the same (state wise).



Bingo. Our drag is the apple.

I gotta be honest though...I'm still very optimistic.

And I'll even go out on a limb and say that I think the reason Jim Kelly wants to be part of the team again, is perhaps one day he ends up as a minority share as part of an ownership group. He does have a degree in business from Miami afterall.

Funtimes...Wasn't Kosar part of the group that brought the Browns back to Cleveland?

[Pride]

I've never purchased a beer at RWS... no way in hell am I paying those prices! I'll drink prior to the game in the parking lot, then "sober" up in the stadium if need be.

Of course, if the team is as bad as I expect them to be, perhaps beer sales will increase lol.

[BillsNick]

I've never purchased a beer at RWS... no way in hell am I paying those prices! I'll drink prior to the game in the parking lot, then "sober" up in the stadium if need be.

Of course, if the team is as bad as I expect them to be, perhaps beer sales will increase lol.

Hell yes man, friggin $8 a damn beer, I'm slamming them the whole walk from the 711 parking lot to my gate. Sometimes a little :puke: if need be.

[THATHURMANATOR]

You're so dramatic Thurm! :rofl:
Thanks!

[THATHURMANATOR]

I will pay double for my tickets to keep the Bills, even if they lost every game the year prior.

[don137]

Maybe if they can develop the downtown area and attract some real businesses there, you might have a chance.
There is gambling and a tourism industry, can't you milk that??

The Bills and NFL are and will continue to distance themselves from the gambling industry. Plus how much tourism is in Buffalo/ Niagra Falls that can support the Bills from October-December?

[Mitchy moo]

The Bills and NFL are and will continue to distance themselves from the gambling industry. Plus how much tourism is in Buffalo/ Niagra Falls that can support the Bills from October-December?

Offer special incentives for candian people & business like even exchange monies on off day (like mon. tues. wednesday). We need to think out of the box here or there are going to be problems.

[Mr. Pink]

Funtimes...Wasn't Kosar part of the group that brought the Browns back to Cleveland?

The group was headed by Alfred Lerner (RIP) Bob Gries and Kosar. Not sure how much of a vested interest Kosar has in the team however because it's never talked about. He wanted to have a prominent role in the organization but under Policy/Clark it didn't materialize really. As far as I know he's a "consultant," much like Jim Brown is.

Kosar might have just been a figurehead for Lerner to get public support and support from the mayor of cleveland at the time, Michael White. Which obviously worked.

But yeah Kosar even back in 96 said he'd retire from playing to become owner of the "new browns." There's reasons the city absolutely loves the guy besides the fact from 86-89 there might not have been a better QB in the NFL, debatable definitely on that. Kosar is the main man who caused Belichicks' downfall in cleveland, right or wrong, when Belichick released him. The press and fans publically "murdered" him for it.

So all in all Kosar had a lot to do with the "new Browns" that are on the field Sundays now.