I think chances of D'Brick falling, slim as they were, just got worse

[EDS]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2399461

[RedEyE]

Scott absolutely sucks, depending on the undisclosed draft pick, Gandy must either be washed up or washing out.

[Michael82]

Brick is going to either the Jets or the Saints. Oh well.

Maybe Mario Williams or AJ Hawk will fall to us now. :up:

[Devin]

He actually had a great year in 2005 a lot of it is salary based.

[EDS]

It is interesting that they traded their left tackle after spending a ot of money on Brees.

[RedEyE]

They have to be going after Brick.

[ICE74129]

Brick is going to either the Jets or the Saints. Oh well.

Maybe Mario Williams or AJ Hawk will fall to us now. :up:

Justice or Winston with #8. Marv knows the lines weren't addressed good enough in FA. We will take one of the top remaining two LT's

[Michael82]

Justice or Winston with #8. Marv knows the lines weren't addressed good enough in FA. We will take one of the top remaining two LT's
Not at 8. Those are both reaches. We will trade down to get one of those 2. :up:

[Philagape]

I'm sick of the word "reach." Draft who you need, regardless of where you are. If you can trade down, good, but if not, take him anyway.

(not an endorsement of any particular player, just of the philosophy)

[Michael82]

I'm sick of the word "reach." Draft who you need, regardless of where you are. If you can trade down, good, but if not, take him anyway.

(not an endorsement of any particular player, just of the philosophy)
I hate the idea of teams drafting a position and "reaching"....

But I like the idea of taking the BEST PLAYER available...if AJ Hawk or Mario Williams are there...I want them! :D

[ICE74129]

Not at 8. Those are both reaches. We will trade down to get one of those 2. :up:

Link please. Since everyone seems to demand one these days, I want a link showing that taking Justice at #8 is a reach.

Otherise your opinion flys in the face of one of the best coaches in the NFL. and According to fox his isn't the only pro staff that feels the kid is a top 10 pick.

Please prove to me that justice is a 'reach' at #8 and please back it up with facts. Links would be the best.

[Michael82]

Link please. Since everyone seems to demand one these days, I want a link showing that taking Justice at #8 is a reach.

Otherise your opinion flys in the face of one of the best coaches in the NFL. and According to fox his isn't the only pro staff that feels the kid is a top 10 pick.

Please prove to me that justice is a 'reach' at #8 and please back it up with facts. Links would be the best.
:yap:

[Saratoga Slim]

I'm sick of the word "reach." Draft who you need, regardless of where you are. If you can trade down, good, but if not, take him anyway.

(not an endorsement of any particular player, just of the philosophy)

problem is that top ten picks get biggggg $$$. if a guy is rated as a "reach" it means that the scouts are less sure that he is going to be a star than the players that are rated as "not-reaches". Thus, if you have a high draft pick, you have to be careful, you must draft a guy who you are confident is going to earn the big paychecks that you're signing him for.

"Reaching" means more "risking" of money.

[Devin]

Lee Evans was a "reach" at 13 a few years ago, id say that worked out ok.

[ICE74129]

:yap: That's what I thought.

[ICE74129]

Lee Evans was a "reach" at 13 a few years ago, id say that worked out ok.

Most of these guys are too busy playing madden, listening to ESPN or some joke website doing mock drafts and pick up the word 'Reach'.

Facts are we have clear cut needs on the OL and DL. Unless we have a trade partner to trade down just a couple of spots, then you address a need with one of the top guys coming out. Esp, when it is a general concensus that at least the top two of those guys are 10 year fixtures at thier position.

the problem is fans want flash and ignore substance. We need lines, we have ignored the lines and it is past time to address them. Marv and Tom are smart enough to know this.

[Saratoga Slim]

Lee Evans was a "reach" at 13 a few years ago, id say that worked out ok.

I'm not saying you should never "reach." I'm just saying you have to be careful when you have a top ten pick because you're going to be paying whoever you draft a lot of money.

and anyway, "reach" is a relative term. the Bills will have their own list of player evaluations based on months of research, and will compile a rating of the players available. their analysis of the guys available is what determines what a "reach" is, not Mel Kiper's opinion. That was probably the case with Lee Evans; he was a "reach" by popular perception b/c of the questions about his knee. the Bills' doctors checked out his knee, felt confident about it, and thus felt he was a good value at #13, and likely to justify the salary they were going to have to pay him commensurate to that pick. so that may have been a "reach" by populer perception, but not according to TD's evaluation.

what I don't want to see is for the Bills to take a guy who they have evaluated and think is probably a "reach" at #8, just b/c he falls at a need position. in that case, the Bills would be drafting someone who they were NOT CONFIDENT is worthy of the #8-size salary, just because they were trying to fill a position. That type of "reaching" is risky, and its why you should sometimes take the best player available if you can't find a need position guy who you've rated worthy of your pick.

[Saratoga Slim]

Most of these guys are too busy playing madden, listening to ESPN or some joke website doing mock drafts and pick up the word 'Reach'.

Facts are we have clear cut needs on the OL and DL. Unless we have a trade partner to trade down just a couple of spots, then you address a need with one of the top guys coming out. Esp, when it is a general concensus that at least the top two of those guys are 10 year fixtures at thier position.

the problem is fans want flash and ignore substance. We need lines, we have ignored the lines and it is past time to address them. Marv and Tom are smart enough to know this.

I'm totally with you Ice. Lines Lines Lines. I'll do a f-in back flip if Mario or D'Brick is available at 8. I won't complain if we pick Justice at 8, b/c I know Marv won't let that happen unless he's signed off on Justice's character and motivational issues. But from where I sit right now, Justice worries me in a Mike Williams kind of way. I just don't want the Bills to get burned like that again by a guy with amazing talent and insufficient desire to make use of it.

So if we stay at 8, and draft Hawk/Huff/Davis, I'm fine with that. We can still make a huge impact on our lines with the 2nd, 3a, 3b and 4. It's a deep draft at OG and OT and a fairly decent one at DT.

What I'm saying is that, in the event that Marv and Co. are worried about Justice's motivation, I'd rather they gave the #8 paycheck to a guy who they know is going to work his ass off and justify the big $$, like Hawk/Davis.

But if they take a Safety, LB or TE in the first round and don't spend at least 3 of the next 4 picks on OL and DL, I'm gonna burn Denny's.

[Tatonka]

Link please. Since everyone seems to demand one these days, I want a link showing that taking Justice at #8 is a reach.

Otherise your opinion flys in the face of one of the best coaches in the NFL. and According to fox his isn't the only pro staff that feels the kid is a top 10 pick.

Please prove to me that justice is a 'reach' at #8 and please back it up with facts. Links would be the best.

typical :limp: post by ice. he read one article where john fox said justice is a first round talent, and now he is the best LT that holds people up with guns and gets hookers in the world!!!

[Tatonka]

Lee Evans was a "reach" at 13 a few years ago, id say that worked out ok.

has it really though? i mean honestly evans has never even had a 1000 yard season and in the few games he has played without moulds, he was a non factor.. i am not saying that i dislike evans or that he wont be good this year.. but i think that evans has far from proved he is a good pick at 13.. if he shows he can do it as "the guy" this year, then i will give him credit where it is deserved. this is his third year.. so we will see.. big year for him i hope.

[Saratoga Slim]

If we do draft Justice, we'll have no trouble signing him. He'll love the Canadian ballet.

[Tatonka]

Most of these guys are too busy playing madden, listening to ESPN or some joke website doing mock drafts and pick up the word 'Reach'.

Facts are we have clear cut needs on the OL and DL. Unless we have a trade partner to trade down just a couple of spots, then you address a need with one of the top guys coming out. Esp, when it is a general concensus that at least the top two of those guys are 10 year fixtures at thier position.

the problem is fans want flash and ignore substance. We need lines, we have ignored the lines and it is past time to address them. Marv and Tom are smart enough to know this.


your typical cop out is to say "madden" when the majority of us on here dont even play video games. it keeps you from having to address or acknowledge anything.

fact is this.. in the last five years.. our best drafted olineman came in the 3rd round.. jonas jennings.. or was undrafted, jason peters... our WORST olineman was a number 4 overall pick.. mike williams.

every year there are tons of great lineman that come from the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th rounds.. NE, the team that you LOVE to compair our "new personell style" too has never invested a top pick in an Olineman..

just because the bills dont take OL in the first, i will not line up to off myself like your going to, because i know that there is an entire draft left to get other positions..

and someone correct me if i am wrong, but did marv not say that "big men" could be had in later rounds?

the best available talent will be taken at 8. i still say that is going to be hawk, davis, or huff.

[Tatonka]

If we do draft Justice, we'll have no trouble signing him. He'll love the Canadian ballet.

as long as their are plenty of hookers in the streets in buffalo, and a walmart that sells bb guns, he will love it up there.

[patmoran2006]

Here are a few links..

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/5469406
(18th overall- by Rob Rang, senior analyst for nfl draft scout)

http://espn.go.com/melkiper/
Mel Kiper has him ranked 22nd on his big board. Ever heard of him?

http://www.condraft.com/mock.php?r=1
(has him going 14th)

There are just a few of the respected people who think Justice is a good player, just not a top 10 player. Of course, everybody is entitled to their opinion.. But you ask for a LINK because Justa THINKS we should draft Vernon Davis and he THINKS that Justice is a reach at 8.

Those are opinions, we all have them.. Fans, Writers, GM's, Coaches, etc...

But on the other end of opinion is FACT. And a FACT is that you said that Perry Fewel said that "we have our starters at safety.". Seeing I'm a big fan of Michael Huff or Jason Allen as opposed to Matt Bowens starting, I find that rather hard to believe.

Now do you have a LINK for that statement? I'm sure a growing number of people would like to hear that.

Thanks.

[ICE74129]

your typical cop out is to say "madden" when the majority of us on here dont even play video games. it keeps you from having to address or acknowledge anything.

fact is this.. in the last five years.. our best drafted olineman came in the 3rd round.. jonas jennings.. or was undrafted, jason peters... our WORST olineman was a number 4 overall pick.. mike williams.

every year there are tons of great lineman that come from the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th rounds.. NE, the team that you LOVE to compair our "new personell style" too has never invested a top pick in an Olineman..

just because the bills dont take OL in the first, i will not line up to off myself like your going to, because i know that there is an entire draft left to get other positions..

and someone correct me if i am wrong, but did marv not say that "big men" could be had in later rounds?

the best available talent will be taken at 8. i still say that is going to be hawk, davis, or huff.

I say madden because most of you don't know football. You ***** and whine about not winning then want to take 3rd, 4th, 7th round or even undrafted talent and put it on the lines.

Lines are the most important part of a football team. You use the best talent possible to get the lines built.

"NE, the team that you LOVE to compair our "new personell style" too has never invested a top pick in an Olineman.." That comment right there was an entire thread started by Pattie and many disproved him on that. NE does spend picks on linemen in the earlier rounds.

Spend the best picks on the best talent on the lines. We do that and by this time next year we will be doing real well. We take some role player and we are looking at Tom Donahoe all over again

[Philagape]

I hate the idea of teams drafting a position and "reaching"....

But I like the idea of taking the BEST PLAYER available...if AJ Hawk or Mario Williams are there...I want them! :D

If they were there, I'd poop my pants, fly to New York and take the card up to the stage myself. But I doubt they will. It would take a miracle for one of them or Brick to be there at 8. It's a tough spot because it's right where the elites end we get to the next level. If we can trade down, great. But if we can't trade down, I wouldn't refuse to take a player who fits a need just because the pundits don't have him projected that high. Being a "reach" is an artificial designation based on opinions that are no more valid than our own decision-makers.

BPA is a luxury, for teams that either have the elites to choose from (like Hawk or Mario) or that have no overwhelming needs. We're neither.

[ICE74129]

Here are a few links..

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/5469406
(18th overall- by Rob Rang, senior analyst for nfl draft scout)

http://espn.go.com/melkiper/
Mel Kiper has him ranked 22nd on his big board. Ever heard of him?

http://www.condraft.com/mock.php?r=1
(has him going 14th)

There are just a few of the respected people who think Justice is a good player, just not a top 10 player. Of course, everybody is entitled to their opinion.. But you ask for a LINK because Justa THINKS we should draft Vernon Davis and he THINKS that Justice is a reach at 8.

Those are opinions, we all have them.. Fans, Writers, GM's, Coaches, etc...

But on the other end of opinion is FACT. And a FACT is that you said that Perry Fewel said that "we have our starters at safety.". Seeing I'm a big fan of Michael Huff or Jason Allen as opposed to Matt Bowens starting, I find that rather hard to believe.

Now do you have a LINK for that statement? I'm sure a growing number of people would like to hear that.

Thanks.


I showed that article got cut down. But your buddy Tonka got made a fool of for asking for something similar on JP.

Justice isn't opinion. As a winning HC said, Justice is rated better by a couple of teams. (and that article has been posted already go look for it yourself)

Now again find me a link saying Justice is a reach at #8. While your at it find me one that says taking a need with a top 10 pick when you can get one of the best players at that position is a reach as well.

[patmoran2006]

I showed that article got cut down. But your buddy Tonka got made a fool of for asking for something similar on JP.

Justice isn't opinion. As a winning HC said, Justice is rated better by a couple of teams. (and that article has been posted already go look for it yourself)

Now again find me a link saying Justice is a reach at #8. While your at it find me one that says taking a need with a top 10 pick when you can get one of the best players at that position is a reach as well.

I don't care about Tonka or JP .. I'd like to see the article even if got cut down..


When John Fox is the head coach of the Buffalo bills, then I will care what he has to say about Winston Justice.. If he's that good, then tell Mr Fox to trade up to number eight and draft him.

[ICE74129]

I don't care about Tonka or JP .. I'd like to see the article even if got cut down..


When John Fox is the head coach of the Buffalo bills, then I will care what he has to say about Winston Justice.. If he's that good, then tell Mr Fox to trade up to number eight and draft him.
Nah he is too busy going to superbowls, NFC Championships etc to bother with that.

But I think its funny you don't care what a winning HC has to say but are willing to back your position with Mel Kiper?

[ParanoidAndroid]

Speaking of need, I think one of the hidden needs is replacing Posey and getting some more young talent on the defense. We have so many needs, not just O-line and D-line, our options are very open. Someone good is going to fall to us. We just have to hope we pick the right one. Personally, I hope we trade down, take Bunkley and get a couple more picks.

[Philagape]

The thing is, our O and D lines need immediate STARTERS. I'm not satisfed with Gandy at LT or Bennie at LG or Anderson at DT. Sure, we can get gems in the rough in later rounds, we always have, but someone who can start right away? What are the chances of that?

[ICE74129]

The thing is, our O and D lines need immediate STARTERS. I'm not satisfed with Gandy at LT or Bennie at LG or Anderson at DT. Sure, we can get gems in the rough in later rounds, we always have, but someone who can start right away? What are the chances of that?

Nah we don't want that phil. We want to take a TE or SS while waiting to get low round talent to 'compete' with Gandy instead of top round talent to flat beat him out for the position.

Taking top talent and solidifying the OL And DL for a few years makes too much football sense.

[patmoran2006]

Nah we don't want that phil. We want to take a TE or SS while waiting to get low round talent to 'compete' with Gandy instead of top round talent to flat beat him out for the position.

Taking top talent and solidifying the OL And DL for a few years makes too much football sense.

and you want a ROOKIE who's ISNT EVEN A LEFT TACKLE to be drafted 8th overall and PROTECT our QB's blindside?!??!?!?

id rather have a rookie safety or especially Tight End/WR starting than a LEft Tackle.. you know, the one who's responsible for our Qb's back and ribs..

[patmoran2006]

Nah he is too busy going to superbowls, NFC Championships etc to bother with that.

But I think its funny you don't care what a winning HC has to say but are willing to back your position with Mel Kiper?

There are plenty of "winning HC's" who are in love with Vince Young, yet you hate him.. Isn't that the exact same thing?

[ICE74129]

and you want a ROOKIE who's ISNT EVEN A LEFT TACKLE to be drafted 8th overall and PROTECT our QB's blindside?!??!?!?

id rather have a rookie safety or especially Tight End/WR starting than a LEft Tackle.. you know, the one who's responsible for our Qb's back and ribs..

To me it is fine. Plenty of teams have done that in NFL history and had little trouble. There just comes a point and time when you must pull the trigger and do it. And according to some here, we really suck and since marv didn't go out and over pay for names...wouldn't this year be a good year to put that rookie in place?

[ICE74129]

There are plenty of "winning HC's" who are in love with Vince Young, yet you hate him.. Isn't that the exact same thing?

Aren't you a guy that said young should be a consideration for us? If you say he is then you must accept Fox's thoughts (and the other coaches that think the same) on Justice.

[Mr. Pink]

Vince Young is though of everywhere as a top 10 talent.....Justice is not.

Young would bring publicity to this team and some national media coverage, Justice would not.

Vince Young at 8 would be a hell of a pick, he won't be there, so don't worry.

If we don't take Justice, he could still be there at pick 15.

There's a reason why people like MEL KIPER are so respected, he's generally dead on with what he says and he's been doing it 20 years. So his opinion of players is A LOT more on target than mine, yours or John Fox.

Any of this compute?

[ICE74129]

Young would bring publicity to this team and some national media coverage, Justice would not.




THERE IS THE REAL ISSUE! Those I refer to as the Madden Gen don't want to do what wins games, that is draft lines. They want flash. someone that makes the media look at us etc.

WINNING does that all on it's own. Address the lines, we start winning. We start winning the media is all over us.

We draft a guy like young...marv has a 31-49 type record and we keep on being the laughing stock of the league as someone signs young away from us because he hates playing for a losing team.

[Mr. Pink]

Vince Young seemed to do some winning in Texas....a national championship to be exact.

But that wasn't the main point of what I was conveying.

Justice is 22nd on Kipers' board....taking him at 8 is a huge reach.....I'd love to see what GMs have Justice rated higher than Ferguson, hopefully it's one of the top 7 teams and they're dumb enough to select Justice and let Ferguson fall to us.

[ICE74129]

Vince Young seemed to do some winning in Texas....a national championship to be exact.

But that wasn't the main point of what I was conveying.

Justice is 22nd on Kipers' board....taking him at 8 is a huge reach.....I'd love to see what GMs have Justice rated higher than Ferguson, hopefully it's one of the top 7 teams and they're dumb enough to select Justice and let Ferguson fall to us.

And Josh Heupel won a national championship too. How did he translate to the pros? Don't try to throw 'he won A national championship' out there as a reason to draft Young.

Again I ask, you base everything on Kiper. the man doesn't have 100th the resources of NFL Teams. Get me the BLESTO scouting report on Justice. Make sure you include the reports from everyone they talked to. Coaches, former coaches, high school teachers, friends, family, Members of the college he attends etc. Then get me thier opinions on where this kid rates. Personally I would love to see Pioli and Polians takes on this kid.

[patmoran2006]

And Josh Heupel won a national championship too. How did he translate to the pros? Don't try to throw 'he won A national championship' out there as a reason to draft Young.

Again I ask, you base everything on Kiper. the man doesn't have 100th the resources of NFL Teams. Get me the BLESTO scouting report on Justice. Make sure you include the reports from everyone they talked to. Coaches, former coaches, high school teachers, friends, family, Members of the college he attends etc. Then get me thier opinions on where this kid rates. Personally I would love to see Pioli and Polians takes on this kid.

Well if he's that good, then let Fox trade up with Buffalo and they can have Winston Justice at number eight..

[patmoran2006]

Again I ask, you base everything on Kiper. the man doesn't have 100th the resources of NFL Teams. Get me the BLESTO scouting report on Justice. Make sure you include the reports from everyone they talked to. Coaches, former coaches, high school teachers, friends, family, Members of the college he attends etc. Then get me thier opinions on where this kid rates. Personally I would love to see Pioli and Polians takes on this kid.

Well, if thats the case.. How you so SURE Vince Young is going to be a huge bust as you've said SOOOOO many times?!?!?

Just about every team in this ENTIRE league has Young rated high on their draft board (i know i know, you want a link for everyteam in the nfl too right).. So Fox is a GENIUS cause he said Justice is rated high, and every GM in the NFL is STUPID because they have Young rated in the top 10.. Maybe those GM's should hire you as a consultant so they're not wrong about him and dont waste their first rounder.

Tell John Fox to let us see his mock draft for 32 teams in the NFL.. I'll put money on it that Kiper's board is more accurate..

And to answer your statement earlier.. John Fox is a NFL coach and a hell of one at that. hell, I'm pissed we didnt hire him.

But let me ASSURE you that Mel Kiper knows 1,000 times more about these players coming out of college than John Fox.

[X-Era]

Justice or Winston with #8. Marv knows the lines weren't addressed good enough in FA. We will take one of the top remaining two LT's

Did you just say Eric Winston at 8? Are you frikkin kidding me? your obsession with filling certain positions with our 8 pick has just reached monumentally dumb proportions.

Winston is at BEST a 2nd round pick. You have lost your mind completely.

[ICE74129]

Well, if thats the case.. How you so SURE Vince Young is going to be a huge bust as you've said SOOOOO many times?!?!?

Just about every team in this ENTIRE league has Young rated high on their draft board (i know i know, you want a link for everyteam in the nfl too right).. So Fox is a GENIUS cause he said Justice is rated high, and every GM in the NFL is STUPID because they have Young rated in the top 10.. Maybe those GM's should hire you as a consultant so they're not wrong about him and dont waste their first rounder.

Tell John Fox to let us see his mock draft for 32 teams in the NFL.. I'll put money on it that Kiper's board is more accurate..

And to answer your statement earlier.. John Fox is a NFL coach and a hell of one at that. hell, I'm pissed we didnt hire him.

But let me ASSURE you that Mel Kiper knows 1,000 times more about these players coming out of college than John Fox.
Kiper doesn't know spit compared to the pros that do this with the resources they have. Teams pay millions to get the info they get. Again I think its funny even kiper says teams shouldn't listen to him. He knows he doesn't have the resources the NFL does in scouting players.

I feel confident Justice is in the top 10 on many teams lists after his workout.

[patmoran2006]

Did you just say Eric Winston at 8? Are you frikkin kidding me? your obsession with filling certain positions with our 8 pick has just reached monumentally dumb proportions.

Winston is at BEST a 2nd round pick. You have lost your mind completely.
Eric Winston is NOT lasting until the second round.. But at the eight spot, you're absolutely right.. It is an obsession..

Hell our DT position is in WORSE shape than our LT position.. Why not Broderik Bunkley, he's more worthy at 8 AND just a big (actually bigger) need..

Dont bother talking sense though, because John Fox said Winston Justice is good.

[ICE74129]

Eric Winston is NOT lasting until the second round.. But at the eight spot, you're absolutely right.. It is an obsession..

Hell our DT position is in WORSE shape than our LT position.. Why not Broderik Bunkley, he's more worthy at 8 AND just a big (actually bigger) need..

Dont bother talking sense though, because John Fox said Winston Justice is good.

Too funny. LTs are always higher rated and more sought after than DT's. The depth at DT in the 2nd round is greater than OT.

When you have a shot at taking a 10+ year LT then you do so. You don't fart around, think about it, check with mullet head Mel, you pull the trigger and get him.

I keep hearing Bills fans talk like this and it's no wonder we are the laughing stock of the league. TD listened to the fans.

[patmoran2006]

Too funny. LTs are always higher rated and more sought after than DT's. The depth at DT in the 2nd round is greater than OT.

When you have a shot at taking a 10+ year LT then you do so. You don't fart around, think about it, check with mullet head Mel, you pull the trigger and get him.

I keep hearing Bills fans talk like this and it's no wonder we are the laughing stock of the league. TD listened to the fans.

How many games has WInston Justice played at left tackle? Your a good enough SCOUT yourself to KNOW that he's going to play left tackle in the NFL and be a 10+ year guy??

If you substitute the name WInston Justice with D'BrickShaw Ferguson then this conversation can continue.. Until then, I'm done talking about something you know nothing about.. I'd bet my life you havent seen him play three games in his career (counting his suspension filled '04 season) and your telling me he's a 10+ year left tackle.

[ICE74129]

How many games has WInston Justice played at left tackle? Your a good enough SCOUT yourself to KNOW that he's going to play left tackle in the NFL and be a 10+ year guy??

If you substitute the name WInston Justice with D'BrickShaw Ferguson then this conversation can continue.. Until then, I'm done talking about something you know nothing about.. I'd bet my life you havent seen him play three games in his career (counting his suspension filled '04 season) and your telling me he's a 10+ year left tackle.

Yes I have seen more than 3 games of his, yes I can tell you the kid is as much a 10 LT as D'Brick. Now will some team leave him at RT? That I can't say. That is thier choice. But he has the skills you need to be a LT.

[Michael82]

2005: After a year's layoff, Justice likely will reclaim his starting right offensive tackle spot as a junior in 2005 (he started there in 2002 and 2003).

2004: Justice was slated to start for his third season at right offensive tackle as a junior in 2004. But he was ineligible for 2004 spring practice and the 2004 season because of a student conduct violation (he did not attend USC during that time), so he redshirted.

2003: Justice started for his second season on the right side as a sophomore in 2003. He was named to the 2003 All-Pac-10 honorable mention squad. He missed 2 games (Arizona State and Stanford) with an ankle sprain.
2002: As just a first-year freshman, Justice started 12 games (all but the opener against Auburn, in which he didn't play at all) at right offensive tackle in 2002 and did a marvelous job.

http://usctrojans.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/justice_winston00.html

[patmoran2006]

Yes I have seen more than 3 games of his, yes I can tell you the kid is as much a 10 LT as D'Brick. Now will some team leave him at RT? That I can't say. That is thier choice. But he has the skills you need to be a LT.

Ok.. I just want ONE REASON, ONE on why you "can tell me the kid is as much a 10 LT as D'Brick"

Because IF that's the case, this is a moot point.. If he's every good as Brick then there is NO way he is lasting to the 8th spot.

He's played ZERO games as a left tackle and he's every good as Brick now.. I"ve heard it all.

and BTW, for the record.. I would draft Winston Justice.. NOT with the 8th pick though. If I traded down to like 17-20 then I'd take him AND a second rounder to boot. Im' not investing my 8th pick on a LT who's never played there.

[Nighthawk]

Eric Winston is NOT lasting until the second round.. But at the eight spot, you're absolutely right.. It is an obsession..

Hell our DT position is in WORSE shape than our LT position.. Why not Broderik Bunkley, he's more worthy at 8 AND just a big (actually bigger) need..

Dont bother talking sense though, because John Fox said Winston Justice is good.

My take on this is that the Bills should take Justice if he is there. Why? Because as most of the scouts are saying, he is a premier tackle in this draft, whether he play right or left. There are not enough premier tackles in this draft who can help this team immediately and he IS one of them. Now, I know the Bills still need a DT, but that position is VERY deep in this draft and that can be filled with our 2nd rounder. There will be plenty of DT left in the 2nd who can make an immediate impact on this team. Do I like Bunkley? Hell yes I like him and would love to have him, but I just feel that Justice is definetly deserving of that #8 pick and he fills a HUGE void on this team. I would also be OK with the Bills trading down and getting McNeill from Auburn if they could pick up some extra picks.

[Michael82]

2005: After a year's layoff, Justice likely will reclaim his starting right offensive tackle spot as a junior in 2005 (he started there in 2002 and 2003).

2004: Justice was slated to start for his third season at right offensive tackle as a junior in 2004. But he was ineligible for 2004 spring practice and the 2004 season because of a student conduct violation (he did not attend USC during that time), so he redshirted.

2003: Justice started for his second season on the right side as a sophomore in 2003. He was named to the 2003 All-Pac-10 honorable mention squad. He missed 2 games (Arizona State and Stanford) with an ankle sprain.
2002: As just a first-year freshman, Justice started 12 games (all but the opener against Auburn, in which he didn't play at all) at right offensive tackle in 2002 and did a marvelous job.

http://usctrojans.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/justice_winston00.html
BUMP for ICE and Pat. :up:

[ICE74129]

2005: After a year's layoff, Justice likely will reclaim his starting right offensive tackle spot as a junior in 2005 (he started there in 2002 and 2003).

2004: Justice was slated to start for his third season at right offensive tackle as a junior in 2004. But he was ineligible for 2004 spring practice and the 2004 season because of a student conduct violation (he did not attend USC during that time), so he redshirted.

2003: Justice started for his second season on the right side as a sophomore in 2003. He was named to the 2003 All-Pac-10 honorable mention squad. He missed 2 games (Arizona State and Stanford) with an ankle sprain.
2002: As just a first-year freshman, Justice started 12 games (all but the opener against Auburn, in which he didn't play at all) at right offensive tackle in 2002 and did a marvelous job.

http://usctrojans.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/justice_winston00.html


What is your point? USC took their most talented OL and used him to protect their most valuable asset. Had the QB been right handed he would have most likely been on the left side.

[Nighthawk]

What is your point? USC took their most talented OL and used him to protect their most valuable asset. Had the QB been right handed he would have most likely been on the left side.

Ice has a very good point on this one.

[patmoran2006]

My take on this is that the Bills should take Justice if he is there. Why? Because as most of the scouts are saying, he is a premier tackle in this draft, whether he play right or left. There are not enough premier tackles in this draft who can help this team immediately and he IS one of them. Now, I know the Bills still need a DT, but that position is VERY deep in this draft and that can be filled with our 2nd rounder. There will be plenty of DT left in the 2nd who can make an immediate impact on this team. Do I like Bunkley? Hell yes I like him and would love to have him, but I just feel that Justice is definetly deserving of that #8 pick and he fills a HUGE void on this team. I would also be OK with the Bills trading down and getting McNeil from Virginia if they could pick up some extra picks.

Mcneil is a right tackle..

I am with you on Bunkley, and I also feel that DT with Tim Anderson as the alternative is a bigger NEED that LT with Gandy there now..

I can live with Gandy at tackle for another year while we develop a 2nd or 3rd round tackle.......... If Tim Anderson is starting, teams are going to set rushing records against us every week.

[patmoran2006]

What is your point? USC took their most talented OL and used him to protect their most valuable asset. Had the QB been right handed he would have most likely been on the left side.

He was so talented that he got KICKED off the team and they WON a national championship that year.. That's how valuable he was.

I don't want to a pay a guy like that top -eight money, especially one who's proven NOTHING at left tackle.

I'll take Bunkley though.

Marv Levy "Ability without character will lose"


Translation: NO THANK YOU.. (if you actually believe in Marv anyway)

[Nighthawk]

Mcneil is a right tackle..

I am with you on Bunkley, and I also feel that DT with Tim Anderson as the alternative is a bigger NEED that LT with Gandy there now..

I can live with Gandy at tackle for another year while we develop a 2nd or 3rd round tackle.......... If Tim Anderson is starting, teams are going to set rushing records against us every week.

McNeill is from Auburn, not Virginia...my bad. Anderson sucks and if he is our starter, than Marv Levy and Dick should both be beaten with wet noodles until they cry...MERCY!

[Michael82]

What is your point? USC took their most talented OL and used him to protect their most valuable asset. Had the QB been right handed he would have most likely been on the left side.
My point is that you were WRONG! You called him and I quote....


10+ year LT

He was not an LT in college, he was a Right Tackle. Yes he protected a left handed QB, but he was still a RT, not a LT.

[Nighthawk]

My point is that you were WRONG! You called him and I quote....



He was not an LT in college, he was a Right Tackle. Yes he protected a left handed QB, but he was still a RT, not a LT.

Good point, Mikey...but most of the scouts are saying he can make the move to LT. That is something we never heard about Big Mike. It is a gamble, but it is a risk worth taking in my book. I really like the idea of taking Justice in the first and a DT in the 2nd (Wroten?). Then we address both our pressing needs with quality players.

[Mr. Pink]

Good point, Mikey...but most of the scouts are saying he can make the move to LT. That is something we never heard about Big Mike. It is a gamble, but it is a risk worth taking in my book. I really like the idea of taking Justice in the first and a DT in the 2nd (Wroten?). Then we address both our pressing needs with quality players.


See, when you're in the top 10....you're a bad team. You can't afford to take risks/gambles with your first pick. Because of it doesn't pan you've wasted easily 3 years of progression and success. That's another reason, I think the Justice is a reach for us, not just Kipers' board. We're not in ANY position to take risks and gambles in RD1 when we have plenty of holes that could be filled by an IMPACT player. JMO

[Michael82]

Good point, Mikey...but most of the scouts are saying he can make the move to LT. That is something we never heard about Big Mike. It is a gamble, but it is a risk worth taking in my book. I really like the idea of taking Justice in the first and a DT in the 2nd (Wroten?). Then we address both our pressing needs with quality players.
I like taking Justice too, but NOT at #8. That is too much money to pay for a Right Tackle that would need to get switched.

I'd only take Justice if they could trade down.

[Michael82]

See, when you're in the top 10....you're a bad team. You can't afford to take risks/gambles with your first pick. Because of it doesn't pan you've wasted easily 3 years of progression and success. That's another reason, I think the Justice is a reach for us, not just Kipers' board. We're not in ANY position to take risks and gambles in RD1 when we have plenty of holes that could be filled by an IMPACT player. JMO
Good post. :posrep:

[Nighthawk]

I like taking Justice too, but NOT at #8. That is too much money to pay for a Right Tackle that would need to get switched.

I'd only take Justice if they could trade down.

I agree, a trade down would be the ideal situation, but we really need to see what is on the board when the Bills pick. Who knows, maybe Williams falls to us...then I would take him in a heartbeat!

[Nighthawk]

See, when you're in the top 10....you're a bad team. You can't afford to take risks/gambles with your first pick. Because of it doesn't pan you've wasted easily 3 years of progression and success. That's another reason, I think the Justice is a reach for us, not just Kipers' board. We're not in ANY position to take risks and gambles in RD1 when we have plenty of holes that could be filled by an IMPACT player. JMO

True enough, but name me one player who doesn't come with a risk attached that the Bills can take at #8?

[ICE74129]

My point is that you were WRONG! You called him and I quote....



He was not an LT in college, he was a Right Tackle. Yes he protected a left handed QB, but he was still a RT, not a LT.

I am wrong? How the hell do you figure that? I said they took their best lineman and had him protect their biggest asset...matt Lionart. Who cares what side he was on? FACT, they used their best lineman to protect thier QB.

[ICE74129]

See, when you're in the top 10....you're a bad team. You can't afford to take risks/gambles with your first pick. Because of it doesn't pan you've wasted easily 3 years of progression and success. That's another reason, I think the Justice is a reach for us, not just Kipers' board. We're not in ANY position to take risks and gambles in RD1 when we have plenty of holes that could be filled by an IMPACT player. JMO

When you are a top 10 picking team it usually means you dont' have your 3 cornerstone players (QB, LT and DE) And it also usually means your lines arent' that great.

So when is a good time to address them? The draft. Take the best talent on the lines.

[Mr. Pink]

True enough, but name me one player who doesn't come with a risk attached that the Bills can take at #8?


See that all depends on the teams above us....I feel Vernon Davis could realistically be available at 8 for us. And there would be no risk in that pick, and HUGE reward. For Evans, for JP and for Willis.

I've seen D'brickshaw falling to us in some mocks. Again, no risk there. The guy woulda been a top 10 pick last year. And, anyone who knows me knows I wanted him to come out last year so Cleveland would take him 3rd overall.

Then there's Michael Huff, AJ Hawk or Mario Williams.

One of these 5 guys will be available to us at 8. I don't think we can afford to pass on any of them. Plus, they are all more "sure things" for us then Justice at the spot. Now if we were drafting around 15, then I'm with you on selecting Justice unless one of the big players fell down that far, which I don't see happening.

[patmoran2006]

When you are a top 10 picking team it usually means you dont' have your 3 cornerstone players (QB, LT and DE) And it also usually means your lines arent' that great.

So when is a good time to address them? The draft. Take the best talent on the lines.

Yer right...............NONE of those positions are cornerstone players for the Bills at those positions.. Thats why if Brick and Mario Wililams are gone and Vince Young is there you JUMP on him.

[ICE74129]

See that all depends on the teams above us....I feel Vernon Davis could realistically be available at 8 for us. And there would be no risk in that pick, and HUGE reward. For Evans, for JP and for Willis.

I've seen D'brickshaw falling to us in some mocks. Again, no risk there. The guy woulda been a top 10 pick last year. And, anyone who knows me knows I wanted him to come out last year so Cleveland would take him 3rd overall.

Then there's Michael Huff, AJ Hawk or Mario Williams.

One of these 5 guys will be available to us at 8. I don't think we can afford to pass on any of them. Plus, they are all more "sure things" for us then Justice at the spot. Now if we were drafting around 15, then I'm with you on selecting Justice unless one of the big players fell down that far, which I don't see happening.

Every player has risks. Even Davis. If you know you can't trade down, you know there is a top Tackle there when you dont' have a LT...you take the LT. Cornerstones....LT, RDE, QB. And BTW where was D'Brick rated before he got over hyped this season? much lower than the top 5.

[patmoran2006]

Brick might have been the FIRST PICK in the DRAFT if he came out early.. LAST YEAR.. HE would have gotten GOBBLED up by Cleveland at the number three spot, you can go ask Fun .. AKA the World's Biggest Cleveland Fan that.

[ICE74129]

Yer right...............NONE of those positions are cornerstone players for the Bills at those positions.. Thats why if Brick and Mario Wililams are gone and Vince Young is there you JUMP on him.

We have our QB, just let him have some time to develop. And I will say again, Young doesnt have the smarts to make it in the NFL.

[Nighthawk]

See that all depends on the teams above us....I feel Vernon Davis could realistically be available at 8 for us. And there would be no risk in that pick, and HUGE reward. For Evans, for JP and for Willis.

I've seen D'brickshaw falling to us in some mocks. Again, no risk there. The guy woulda been a top 10 pick last year. And, anyone who knows me knows I wanted him to come out last year so Cleveland would take him 3rd overall.

Then there's Michael Huff, AJ Hawk or Mario Williams.

One of these 5 guys will be available to us at 8. I don't think we can afford to pass on any of them. Plus, they are all more "sure things" for us then Justice at the spot. Now if we were drafting around 15, then I'm with you on selecting Justice unless one of the big players fell down that far, which I don't see happening.

I love Davis, but the risk attached to him is that we won't be able to address our lines with adequate talent later in the draft. If this happens, than Davis' value decreases to our team because our QB is on his back and can't get the ball to him.

Michael Huff was a CB in college and the risk would be him having to learn to play safety.

AJ Hawk is risk because we really don't need him...thus, we risk the chance of not getting any better in a more important need area.

See, it is really too hard to say that there is no risk with a player because the Bills have sooo many holes to fill. The 3 guys that I would consider "must take" if they were still on the board (obviously Bush will be gone) are Brick, Williams & Leinart. Either one of them would make a huge impact on this team and how the fans view this team.

[Nighthawk]

Yer right...............NONE of those positions are cornerstone players for the Bills at those positions.. Thats why if Brick and Mario Wililams are gone and Vince Young is there you JUMP on him.

Umm, Pat...did I not read in another thread that you had place ICE on "ignore"? What happened?

[patmoran2006]

I love Davis, but the risk attached to him is that we won't be able to address our lines with adequate talent later in the draft. If this happens, than Davis' value decreases to our team because our QB is on his back and can't get the ball to him.

Michael Huff was a CB in college and the risk would be him having to learn to play safety.

AJ Hawk is risk because we really don't need him...thus, we risk the chance of not getting any better in a more important need area.

See, it is really too hard to say that there is no risk with a player because the Bills have sooo many holes to fill. The 3 guys that I would consider "must take" if they were still on the board (obviously Bush will be gone) are Brick, Williams & Leinart. Either one of them would make a huge impact on this team and how the fans view this team.

Very good points.. But the question to ask is this; are we drafting to make a run this year or are we drafting for the long term future of the franchise.

If the answer is the future, then a player like Davis or especially AJ Hawk is a must have. Some of the line could be addressed this year and some next.. EVen with HAwk or Davis as our pick, we're not going to improve in all weak area's in the line with a bunch of rookies.

I especially hate starting rookie Offensive linemen.. Physically they are rarely if ever ready, and mentally they have to learn the NFL game. Id' MUCH rather have a 2nd or 3rd round tackle and develop him for one, even two years before he starts.. Starting arookie at left tackle is begging for JP to get hit often and hard, IMO.

I HATE waiting, but Im starting to accept it with the Bills.. I think you draft the best PLAYER you can at eight, build the lines as much as you with the draft after, and over the course of 2-3 years they develop and you turn it around.

[patmoran2006]

I think 100% of this board will be happy if the bills trade down..

Minnesota seems to be the team with the most to offer. and Denver.

[ICE74129]

Umm, Pat...did I not read in another thread that you had place ICE on "ignore"? What happened?

He loves me....really he does.

[Mr. Pink]

I love Davis, but the risk attached to him is that we won't be able to address our lines with adequate talent later in the draft. If this happens, than Davis' value decreases to our team because our QB is on his back and can't get the ball to him.

Michael Huff was a CB in college and the risk would be him having to learn to play safety.

AJ Hawk is risk because we really don't need him...thus, we risk the chance of not getting any better in a more important need area.

See, it is really too hard to say that there is no risk with a player because the Bills have sooo many holes to fill. The 3 guys that I would consider "must take" if they were still on the board (obviously Bush will be gone) are Brick, Williams & Leinart. Either one of them would make a huge impact on this team and how the fans view this team.

Davis would force someone in the box to have to cover and not take a free run at JP....and provide the 5-7 yard dumpoff before JPs knocked silly on a few plays a game. Therefor he helps immensely, even if we were to completely fail to address this line in the draft, which ain't happening.

Huff is a playmaker who is always around the ball, good instincts, quicks and smarts. He can also tackle a little.

Hawk could take over for Posey/Crowell and be an instant upgrade...He's not lasting past GB though.

I've said it before on ANY of the first RD QBs, I don't like much of any of them....And I'd love to see the Bills spend one of their 2 thirds on Omar Jacobs.

[ICE74129]

I like taking Justice too, but NOT at #8. That is too much money to pay for a Right Tackle that would need to get switched.

I'd only take Justice if they could trade down.

Ok they trade down two spots and take him. I bet you still gripe. If he is there AND YOU DONT THINK YOU CAN TRADE DOWN, then you take him. This whole 'Reach' word is a Mel Kiper / fans on the internet crap. Levi Jones was a reach, how did that work out?

[Nighthawk]

Davis would force someone in the box to have to cover and not take a free run at JP....and provide the 5-7 yard dumpoff before JPs knocked silly on a few plays a game. Therefor he helps immensely, even if we were to completely fail to address this line in the draft, which ain't happening.

Huff is a playmaker who is always around the ball, good instincts, quicks and smarts. He can also tackle a little.

Hawk could take over for Posey/Crowell and be an instant upgrade...He's not lasting past GB though.

I've said it before on ANY of the first RD QBs, I don't like much of any of them....And I'd love to see the Bills spend one of their 2 thirds on Omar Jacobs.

I like Omar Jacobs also...would be interesting to see the Bills take him. However, they have Holcomb & Nall...why would you need another QB?:whistling

[patmoran2006]

Forget the word "reach".. Im willing to "reach" for Bunkley at 8 and most dont have him rated 8th in the draft.

I flat-out dont trust he (Justice) will keep his head clean and Im FAR from sold that he can play LT in the NFL... I'd rather trade down and take Eric Winston, or I'll take my chances with a LT in round two.

[patmoran2006]

I like Omar Jacobs also...would be interesting to see the Bills take him. However, they have Holcomb & Nall...why would you need another QB?:whistling

I agree I dont think Marv takes a QB in this draft unless he sees him as a franchise QB (young or cutler)

[ICE74129]

Davis would force someone in the box to have to cover and not take a free run at JP....and provide the 5-7 yard dumpoff before JPs knocked silly on a few plays a game. Therefor he helps immensely, even if we were to completely fail to address this line in the draft, which ain't happening.

Huff is a playmaker who is always around the ball, good instincts, quicks and smarts. He can also tackle a little.

Hawk could take over for Posey/Crowell and be an instant upgrade...He's not lasting past GB though.

I've said it before on ANY of the first RD QBs, I don't like much of any of them....And I'd love to see the Bills spend one of their 2 thirds on Omar Jacobs.


Davis will get hit in the grill by a LB or Safety because teams know that they can rush 5 and get to the QB in under 2 seconds. ( don't belive me...watch the clock on the tampa game. Under 2 seconds and JP was mush). 5-7 yard patterns can't be ran when your QB has to take a 1-2 step drop. Sure he might get the ball off as the LB or SS kills your TE.

What some have ignored about the TD in San Diego is the fact they can RUN the ball. We can't because we dont' have the line to run the ball. Brees had tons of time the last couple of years.

Huff, Tweener. Here is what I have read on him lately...




OK, here's a guy whose stock is soaring right now. He could be a safetyman or a corner projection. His combine speed was 4.34, which you seldom see for strong safeties. I'm talking about Michael Huff of Texas.


"Look, I'm really sorry to be so negative, but here's what I see here. I see a guy who has trained very hard to run the 40 at the combine. He runs it too effectively. Everybody's getting better at this speed thing. They're learning how to train for it very efficiently. The trick is not to get fooled by this. Huff is a guy who runs fast but doesn't play fast."



That last quote was from a personel man.



Bottom line is this, DB's always look better when a guy is in the QB's face or the QB is on the ground. We can have the entire AFC probowl secondary on our team, it means nothing without the LINE in front of them. We aren't satisfied with LE and we still lack a DT. the ONLY non line I give any consideration to is Hawk.



As for as Davis, He isn't a LT or LG so I pass. Lets see what Everett can do now that he is back from his knee.

Address the lines.

[ICE74129]

I agree I dont think Marv takes a QB in this draft unless he sees him as a franchise QB (young or cutler)

Even if all 3 are there, we won't take a QB

[Mr. Pink]

I agree I dont think Marv takes a QB in this draft unless he sees him as a franchise QB (young or cutler)


I believe without a shadow of a doubt that Jacobs if he had his sophmore season last year would be one of the top 4 QBs and not just 3. The kid has BIG time talent and BIG time smarts....71 TDs to 11 INTs in college on 811 attempts. I'm too tired to do the math but he completely around 65 percent of his passes in college as well. Plus he has size 6'4" 230ish.

Whoever takes this kid is getting ONE hell of a player, I hope it's here.

[patmoran2006]

Yep.. Yer right.. San Diego does run the ball real good..

Behind an effective offensive line consisting of Mike Goff, Shane Olivia, Nick HArdwick, Kris Dielman and Roman Obden.

Guess how many of these linemen were top ten need picks? ZERO
Matter of fact, guess how many of these linemen SD drafted in the first round period? ZERO

Good COACHING staffs can make GOOD LINES out of players that aren't drafted in the first round...... Ask the Chargers or the Broncos for that matter..

The Bills best linemen is an undrafted tight end.. You got that much faith in Marv, he'll find a new LT and not have to use the 8th pick of the draft to do it.

[ICE74129]

I believe without a shadow of a doubt that Jacobs if he had his sophmore season last year would be one of the top 4 QBs and not just 3. The kid has BIG time talent and BIG time smarts....71 TDs to 11 INTs in college on 811 attempts. I'm too tired to do the math but he completely around 65 percent of his passes in college as well. Plus he has size 6'4" 230ish.

Whoever takes this kid is getting ONE hell of a player, I hope it's here.

I saw him play OU in 04. VERY impressive

[patmoran2006]

I believe without a shadow of a doubt that Jacobs if he had his sophmore season last year would be one of the top 4 QBs and not just 3. The kid has BIG time talent and BIG time smarts....71 TDs to 11 INTs in college on 811 attempts. I'm too tired to do the math but he completely around 65 percent of his passes in college as well. Plus he has size 6'4" 230ish.

Whoever takes this kid is getting ONE hell of a player, I hope it's here.
Dallas or Minnesota in the third.. that's his destination.

[Mr. Pink]

Dallas or Minnesota in the third.. that's his destination.



NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

I actually want to HOPE he does well on the NFL level. I can't if he goes to one of those two teams. Say it ain't so, say it ain't so.

[ICE74129]

I don't see him in Dallas or Minn. Where? who knows. But Dallas has a stable of guys. they need to clean house and pick up someone that can actually step in and do the damn job when Bedsore gets beat to hell.

The Vikes, According to my brother the lifer vikes fan, is working to package a deal and move up. I posted a link to KFFL yesterday where they are hearing the same thing. I hope it's us

[patmoran2006]

If ya go by the draft chart .. If Minesota was to move up from 17 to 8..

It would cost them their first (17th), their second second rounder (51) and their fourth to take over BUffalo's 8th.

I'd do it.

[ICE74129]

If ya go by the draft chart .. If Minesota was to move up from 17 to 8..

It would cost them their first (17th), their second second rounder (51) and their fourth to take over BUffalo's 8th.

I'd do it. They have what? 10 picks in the first 4-5 rounds? I think if any of the big QB's are there ( and I feel Cutler will be) then you see the Vikes on the horn.

I heard Al Davis has a hardon for Young so he won't make it past there. SF won't surrender thier pick, they need it. So I think that leaves us.

So far I see this..

Hou Bush
NO Furgeson
Tenn Lionart
Jets Williams ( I Know they are working out QB's but who knows)
GB Hawk or Ngata
SF Davis or Hawk
Oak Young

Buff... Trade down

[patmoran2006]

I will trade down with any team in the top 20 where we can get a second round pick............. In that case I would target Eric Winston and DT and Guard in round two..

My attitude towards our draft approach at 8 and our draft approach if we trade down are two different things.. If we stay at eight I want the BPA I dont care where he plays, this team needs help almost everywhere.

If we trade down, and most hope we will , including me.. and gets that extra second, then absolutely I agree.. OT first, DT second and guard second (second)

[Mr. Pink]

Hou Bush
NO Furgeson
Tenn Lionart
Jets Williams ( I Know they are working out QB's but who knows)
GB Hawk or Ngata
SF Davis or Hawk
Oak Young

Buff... Trade down

I agree mostly here...
Hou-Bush guaranteed.
NO-Kiper and many other experts have them pegged to be in LOVE/LUST with Mario Williams. I know Ice hates Kiper, but he's the authority media wise on the draft
Tenn-I think they go with Young over Lienart....Young has mobility and McNair had mobility, they don't have to change offensive philosophy at all. Of course, they should keep McNair around for tutelage.
Jets-IF THEY TAKE ANYTHING BUT QB THEY'RE STUPID...Noodle-Arm Pennington is done, he had no arm strength to begin with and now he's coming off more surgery, with Young gone, they got Cutler.
GB-Hawk
SF-god knows, they have many holes.
Oak-Huff, they seem to be in love with him same reasons behind NO and Williams.

Now it gets interesting, if no one trades up BRICK could realistically be there at 8 with this transpiring and it realistically could. SF could take him or trade down because they have just as many holes as us.

[ICE74129]

I will trade down with any team in the top 20 where we can get a second round pick............. In that case I would target Eric Winston and DT and Guard in round two..

Holy S@#! We just agreed....Moon turning red...seas boiling....

My attitude towards our draft approach at 8 and our draft approach if we trade down are two different things.. If we stay at eight I want the BPA I dont care where he plays, this team needs help almost everywhere.

If we trade down, and most hope we will , including me.. and gets that extra second, then absolutely I agree.. OT first, DT second and guard second (second)

And when we do that, we are set for years! Then next year draft a damn kicker for all I care!

[ICE74129]

I agree mostly here...
Hou-Bush guaranteed.
NO-Kiper and many other experts have them pegged to be in LOVE/LUST with Mario Williams. I know Ice hates Kiper, but he's the authority media wise on the draft
Tenn-I think they go with Young over Lienart....Young has mobility and McNair had mobility, they don't have to change offensive philosophy at all. Of course, they should keep McNair around for tutelage.
Jets-IF THEY TAKE ANYTHING BUT QB THEY'RE STUPID...Noodle-Arm Pennington is done, he had no arm strength to begin with and now he's coming off more surgery, with Young gone, they got Cutler.
GB-Hawk
SF-god knows, they have many holes.
Oak-Huff, they seem to be in love with him same reasons behind NO and Williams.

Now it gets interesting, if no one trades up BRICK could realistically be there at 8 with this transpiring and it realistically could. SF could take him or trade down because they have just as many holes as us.

NO traded Gandy their starting LT away today. I bet they take Dbrick

[Tatonka]

what i dont understand w/ your obsession w/ lines is that this draft has been noted for being extremely deep in olineman.. do you think our second third and fourth round picks will suck?

[mysticsoto]

Mcneil is a right tackle..

I am with you on Bunkley, and I also feel that DT with Tim Anderson as the alternative is a bigger NEED that LT with Gandy there now..

I can live with Gandy at tackle for another year while we develop a 2nd or 3rd round tackle.......... If Tim Anderson is starting, teams are going to set rushing records against us every week.

I have to say I agree with this the most. While I would love a "premier LT", Gandy playing LT doesn't scare me as much as Anderson playing DT!!! I was absolutely disgusted the way each run by our opponents was into the secondary just about every time. We HAVE to be able to stop the run, period! Especially now that we are going to a cover 2. We want people to throw on us with the fast safeties that we'll have (well, Vincent may not be fast, but he has a fair eye for the ball). But if we can't stop the run up front or get to and rush the QB, having Huff, Whitner, Bing...any speedy safety, will be useless. Everyone will just run on us every chance they get, work the clock down and beat us every time.

Stop the run 1st!!!

[acehole]

I will trade down with any team in the top 20 where we can get a second round pick............. In that case I would target Eric Winston and DT and Guard in round two..

My attitude towards our draft approach at 8 and our draft approach if we trade down are two different things.. If we stay at eight I want the BPA I dont care where he plays, this team needs help almost everywhere.

If we trade down, and most hope we will , including me.. and gets that extra second, then absolutely I agree.. OT first, DT second and guard second (second)

I totally agree pat.....Eric Winston 17 2nd Claud WrotenDT in the second..then OG/OT Spencer with the vikings 2nd. I have been clamoring for Eric for a couple of weeks now. They would all be able to play from Day one.

[acehole]

NO traded Gandy their starting LT away today. I bet they take Dbrick<<<


Or did they do that on purpose to make everybody think D-brick?

if they did.....BRAVO!!

Jets want him...they trade there second..NO gets the guy they wanted all allong ....2 bucks cheaper....and get the jets pick(s)...perfect!

[Saratoga Slim]

True enough, but name me one player who doesn't come with a risk attached that the Bills can take at #8?

There is no one without risk. But the guys who are rated higher are rated higher because scouts think they have LESS risk than the guys rated lower. that's why you don't reach too far when you have a top-ten pick. you're going to give out a top-ten paycheck, so give it to a guy who's rated as most likely to pan out and earn it.

[patmoran2006]

I totally agree pat.....Eric Winston 17 2nd Claud WrotenDT in the second..then OG/OT Spencer with the vikings 2nd. I have been clamoring for Eric for a couple of weeks now. They would all be able to play from Day one.

Realistically, if we got Winston, Wroten and Spencer.. That's about as good a draft (on paper) as you can realistically hope for.. I'd be real excited about that.

[Saratoga Slim]

I totally agree pat.....Eric Winston 17 2nd Claud WrotenDT in the second..then OG/OT Spencer with the vikings 2nd. I have been clamoring for Eric for a couple of weeks now. They would all be able to play from Day one.

that would be outstanding. I'd be all for that.

and there's at least a fair chance that Bunkley would be available in the 15-20 range.

[ICE74129]

NO traded Gandy their starting LT away today. I bet they take Dbrick<<<


Or did they do that on purpose to make everybody think D-brick?

if they did.....BRAVO!!

Jets want him...they trade there second..NO gets the guy they wanted all allong ....2 bucks cheaper....and get the jets pick(s)...perfect!

I don't see them trading away their starting LT then not addressing it in the draft. They have DE's, They will take D'Brick

[ICE74129]

Realistically, if we got Winston, Wroten and Spencer.. That's about as good a draft (on paper) as you can realistically hope for.. I'd be real excited about that.

Spencer over Joseph?

[Saratoga Slim]

Spencer over Joseph?

that's a push in my book. either one would be a SOLID pick at LG. Spencer is a little rawer than Joseph, but he may have more upside. Both are nasty, mean streak guys.

[acehole]

I don't see them trading away their starting LT then not addressing it in the draft. They have DE's, They will take D'Brick

Didnt say they wouldnt address it....just not with the first pick.....

[acehole]

Spencer over Joseph?

Yes for one reason he can play tackle as well as center....reminds me J Jennings...adds versatility to the line...he is a meany as well.

[patmoran2006]

Not just that.. I think Joseph will be gone VERY early in the second round.

[ICE74129]

Yes for one reason he can play tackle as well as center....reminds me J Jennings...adds versatility to the line...he is a meany as well.

Nah, I want a pure guard at guard. I am tired of all around guys that are master of none! We have a roster full of backups that can do that. Take Joseph.

[ICE74129]

Not just that.. I think Joseph will be gone VERY early in the second round. As any good OU guy should....:biggrin:

[jdbillsfan]

I think Eric Winston is a big reach at 8. I am not even sure if he is 1st round talent.

He has never impressed me and seemed to struggle vs top talent at the Sr. Bowl.

He is athletic, because he was an ex TE, but he has had injury problems and never seemed to dominate in College.

Not worth the 8th pick in my opinion.

[acehole]

I think Eric Winston is a big reach at 8. I am not even sure if he is 1st round talent.

He has never impressed me and seemed to struggle vs top talent at the Sr. Bowl.

He is athletic, because he was an ex TE, but he has had injury problems and never seemed to dominate in College.

Not worth the 8th pick in my opinion.

JD nobody is saying that....if we traded with the vikes....17 is not a bad place for him. I have seen mock of him going to Mijiamy at 15.
Before is injury he was consitered a top 10 pick....sound familiar? our RB...our wr? thats why I would watch for the bills to keep an eye out for Antioio Cramati(Sp) cb,...same deal with him.

[patmoran2006]

antonio cromartie..

We better not take a CB early in the draft, thats the ONLY position in my mind that would make no sense.. Thats the only position on this team that is a strength that's still young as well.

[jdbillsfan]

I just don't think Winston is worth it in the first round. He struggled in the Senior Bowl I thought as well. Maybe I am wrong.

I agree with Pat about the CB position. I like Cromartie, but if we have Nate and McGee, I don't think we have the ability to draft for a nickel corner in the 1st round. I think we could get a good nickel corner in the 4th or 5th if needed.

If we dropped to 17, it would be interesting to see who was still available. Could always reach for OL depth like Mangold or draft an LB like Sims or Greenway. WR maybe? Jackson or Holmes. DT.. McCargo maybe?

I would still like to take Davis or Young at 8, but if we can fill more holes by tradind down, would be interesting.