Why did we hire/offer-a-job to LeBeau?

[WG]

I'm wondering why we hired him (assuming he takes the offer), quite frankly. His track record doesn't exactly scream out "playoffs", top-rated defenses, or anything else that says this guys a winner.

On top of that, they're now having to 'create' a position for him as well. Is this TD's way of having a "coaching practice squad" in case Gray doesn't ante-up this season? Or is this simply a TD "buddy hire", of which we know TD likes LeBeau personally?

Maybe TD is redefining the front-office in this league or even the coaching ranks.

In any case, I'm just perplexed a little bit.

[Pride]

I am for it if Gray goes, if Gray is staying, I question it too.

Too many chiefs, not enough indians is what will happen.

[WG]

I guess that's my point. I assume that if Gray was going to be fired, then it would have happened a while ago. I realize there's a split in whether or not Gray should go, but notwithstanding it simply isn't fair to him to wait much longer. He could get a job elsewhere and have a good head start if they are going to let him go. If they wait much longer, then it will make it tougher on Gray.

In any case, they've already said they weren't going to fire Gray, or at least strongly implied it. Given that, what role is LeBeau going to serve other than to undermine Gray?

Puzzling indeed. Again, and I realize that I'm in the minority on this, but WTH are his credentials? Leading the Bengals mostly, to the bottom half of the league in both record and D for most of his seasons? There was never any record of consistent improvement or anything like it, just an odd year where they were decent and two seasons in Pittsburgh where he had top D talent handed to him. I just don't see why he's construed as such an asset that we absolutely have to have him in here such that we undermine the respect of another coach(es), and have to create a position for him on top of it all.

[justasportsfan]

Originally posted by Wys Guy
Puzzling indeed. Again, and I realize that I'm in the minority on this, but WTH are his credentials?

He was the best man at Donahoe's best freind's sister's uncle , brother's nephew's cousins wedding.

[WG]

Naturally! LOL

Pretty soon the FO is gonna have to start a new "program." It gives a whole new meaning to "Friends & Family", eh.

[Dozerdog]

I guess with that logic we should fire Modrak as well. Why have 2 GMs?

[Dozerdog]

We want to hire him because he is a top notch defensive mind.


Wys- you have been harping (justifiably) for almost 18 months now about how this team needs to improve the defense. Here is an opportunity to do so.

[Earthquake Enyart]

We can't fire Gray or Johnnie Cochrane will yell at us.

[WG]

So what you're saying then is that you'd be happy w/ the D that Cincy has had for all these years or something slightly better than that, eh? B/c it surely hasn't been anything decent let alone superior at all. Then again, perhaps you construe Cincy as having been good. ;)

Modrak is an entirely different deal. First of all, he's a management type and there's always room for a decent mind in management, especially one who has the respect of the league, players, and even fans.

Coaching is an entirely different thing altogether. It really isn't that much of a reach to see the difference here. There are only so many coaching spots and when teams start "creating positions" while the current D.C.'s butt is on the line, then there could be ramifications. What's next, two other of TD's buddies, past colleagues, or friends that we create more asst. positions for for whatever reasons TD seems to see fit?

Heck, why not go find the top 10 assts. and offer them all "undisclosed" positions too. That way every asst. coach on the team has a fire under his butt too!

Harping? Hardly. Just starting a conversation. :)

[WG]

Originally posted by Earthquake Enyart
We can't fire Gray or Johnnie Cochrane will yell at us.

LOL

Unless of course he takes a H.C. job somewhere...

[Dozerdog]

Originally posted by Wys Guy
So what you're saying then is that you'd be happy w/ the D that Cincy has had for all these years or something slightly better than that, eh? B/c it surely hasn't been anything decent let alone superior at all. Then again, perhaps you construe Cincy as having been good. ;)

So what I'm saying?


Where did I say anything like that?



The only things I want from the cincy Defense is their coach and their Linebacker. Looks like we got their D-Line guy. I did not say I wanted the other 10 losers.

Tom Donahoe recognizes talent when he sees it. If he knows of a guy who is a brilliant football mind who is out of work he will find a spot for them on the staff.

The whole Cincy Organization is :angry:ed up. Bill Parcells would not have made a difference. What is wrong with bringing in a 2 time Super Bowl DC (with 2 different teams) in as a consultant?


I guess we could dig up Lombardi's pine box........ oh wait, my bad. He was an offensive coordibnator/coach.

[TedMock]

Wasn't he the DC in Cincy when they were good back in the mid and late 80's? I honestly don't recall how good or bad those D's were but I know the team went to 2 superbowls and got killed. Those I remember clearly. They had decent players, Krumrie being one. There was an outstanding linebacker in the middle, #57, but I can't for the life of me remember his name. If anybody has stats on those D's I'd be interested in seeing them.

[justasportsfan]

Let's go by how Lebeau did with Cincy. No one's gonna succeed with that organization. Let's go by TD's track record w/ putting a team together. Anyone see any negatives?

[venis2k1]

Originally posted by Wys Guy
So what you're saying then is that you'd be happy w/ the D that Cincy has had for all these years or something slightly better than that, eh? B/c it surely hasn't been anything decent let alone superior at all. Then again, perhaps you construe Cincy as having been good. ;)

Sure Cincy's Team has sucked the past few years, but that is the GM's fault, not Dicks. As far as i know we arnt offering him a GM job. Look at this list:

Levi Jones(10th overall)
Justin Smith(4th overall)
Peter Warrick(4th overall)
Akili Smith (3rd overall)

These are The bengles last 4 1st round draft picks, 3 of them are top 4 picks!!!! and not a big name among them. its a tribute to Dick that he was able to get out of Cincy with 2 wins last year with the team he had.

[Dozerdog]

Originally posted by TedMock
Wasn't he the DC in Cincy when they were good back in the mid and late 80's? I honestly don't recall how good or bad those D's were but I know the team went to 2 superbowls and got killed. Those I remember clearly. They had decent players, Krumrie being one. There was an outstanding linebacker in the middle, #57, but I can't for the life of me remember his name. If anybody has stats on those D's I'd be interested in seeing them.

He was a DB coach on the 1981 team that went to the SB vs the 49ers- the Bengals had close to 30 interceptions that season.

He was DC on the 1988 SB team that lost to the 49ers again- that D gave up 13 points over 59:30 of that game to one of the most powerful O's in NFL history. They lost 20-16 in the final seconds. Hardly a blowout.

When Wyche left, so did LeBeau. He went to the Steelers as DB coach, and they had 65-70 INts in 3 seasons he was the DB's coach. Moved to Coordinator and the Steelers went to the SB again. Probably would have defeated the Cowboys but Niel O'Donnel threw 2 picks- one returned for a TD, the other returned inside the Steeler 20. That's 14 points the Cowboy's O were handed in a close game. Otherwise, the Steelers D only gave up 13 to a Cowboys team that scored 81 points in 2 previous SB's.

[Dozerdog]

Check out this article-


http://www.billszone.com/YourSite/global/templates/view.php?state=news&action=YourSite_content&month=1&nid=3753

[Tatonka]

well.. who knows.. it doesnt seem as that lebeau will be coaching.. just sitting back, much like modrak and pointing out things maybe other missed.. and maybe trying to evalutate talent as well...

possibly help take the trash out, clean TD's office...

how funny would it be if this undisclosed position was never brought to light.. then on opening day.. the first commercial break starts, and low and behold..

here comes good old dicky lebeau, running onto the field with the water juggs...

"need a squirt ruben? how bout you Big Mike? Drew, you thirsty? I got fresh water here.. come and get it.. fresh water!"

[Dozerdog]

I think he's our new golf cart driver -

[WG]

Originally posted by Dozerdog


So what I'm saying?


Where did I say anything like that?



The only things I want from the cincy Defense is their coach and their Linebacker. Looks like we got their D-Line guy. I did not say I wanted the other 10 losers.

Tom Donahoe recognizes talent when he sees it. If he knows of a guy who is a brilliant football mind who is out of work he will find a spot for them on the staff.

The whole Cincy Organization is :angry:ed up. Bill Parcells would not have made a difference. What is wrong with bringing in a 2 time Super Bowl DC (with 2 different teams) in as a consultant?


I guess we could dig up Lombardi's pine box........ oh wait, my bad. He was an offensive coordibnator/coach.

OK then, let's use that logic here. Shall we? Or is that not fair now for some reason?

You said: "The whole Cincy Organization is :angry:ed up. Bill Parcells would not have made a difference."

Gray had what to work with? Did we bring in some huge names defensively last season? If so, then I missed them.

What reason does Gray have to lose his job now or to be pressured so?

With a DL like Schobel, a questionable 2nd year guy, a rotating platoon at DT, Pat Williams as our only unquestionable starter, and Ahanotu, at 32 years old who was never better than average or slightly better at any single point throughout his career and clearly on the downside of it.

With a LBing corps of Robinson, 'nuff said there, Fletcher, and then a platoon of other guys for the third.

With two decent CBs, but only a rookie and first year starter at Ss, who we aren't even sure will be more than average.

Q: Is this then the kind of talent upon which Gray's performance should be based and dismissed?

Q: What if we do sign Spikes, as I really hope we do, and Thornton, and then another DE that's a bonafide starter, is it then fair to evaluate what LeBeau may do or not do in comparison to what Gray did w/ what he had to work with last season?

B/c I can tell you now, that's exactly what would happen. LeBeau would have talent that Gray simply didn't have, which would also exponentially make our other current decent players better, and then everyone would credit LeBeau.

I don't mind that logic, but then let's make sure that Gray gets a fair shake too. The Bills, as a team, allowed 128 points over the last 7 games of the season, and against some very good offensive opponents as well. That's an average of 18.3 points-per-game. When you consider that Bledsoe set up 31 of those 128 off of his personal TOs, the D or STs allowed only 97 or an average of less than 14 points-per-game.

I don't think that's too shabby and I certainly feel that as a result, Gray did a fine job and improved the D overall as the season went on.

First 5 games the Bills as a team allowed: 180 pts.

Middle 6 games the Bills as a team allowed: 137 pts.

Last 5 games the Bills as a team allowed: 80 pts.

He did that w/ a defensive unit that boasted only 4 sure starters in Williams, Fletcher, Winfield, and Clements; 3 likely starters in Schobel, Prioleau, and Wire; and 4 average, fair, or poor players all of which will be upgraded this offseason, in Ahanotu, Robinson, Newman/whomever played OLB, and our rotating DT position.

Yeah, I will stand up and say that Gray should be given a chance with all the changes we make this offseason. If he screws up then, then we can toss him and few people will argue.

But giving LeBeau an A-team and then comparing him to Gray w/ a C team just isn't fair.

Over the Bills last 5 games, their 16 PPG average, (which doesn't take into consideration the 17 points over that stretch that Drew set up, reducing the defensive responsibility to only 63 or ~ 12 PPG), 16 PPG ranks 3rd amongst this year's NFL scoring Ds.

12.2 PPG would rank 1st ahead of Tampa.

21.7 PPG would rank 18th in scoring D. (Our avg. over the middle 6 and last 5 games)

18.3, what the Bills allowed in the 7 games after our bye-week would rank 4th in the NFL in scoring D.

The situation isn't as bleak as many pessimistic people make it out to be, eh! ;)

I prefer the more optimistic approach of giving the unit the benefit of the doubt that those improvements will stick, especially when we add some talent to the D, eh.

[WG]

The bottom line is that our D started off miserably trying to find it's groove, switching players, with talent that wasn't top shelf for whatever reasons or anything close to it.

Yet, they managed to steadily and consistently improve to the level of a top 4 scoring defense following our bye week.

I think that's pretty impressive given the talent that we had on the roster for D.

And oh yeah, equal to or better than any scoring D ranking the LeBeau has ever had. So how about waiting for see what Gray does next season with all the changes before writing him off. We could be tossing a better, albeit lesser known, and indisputably lesser experienced coach for a worse one.

Regardless of what anyone says, no one knows that LeBeau is better. It's pure speculation, and regardless of circumstances in Cincy, he hardly had it much worse than Gray had it last year and this in Buffalo. LeBeau has had more talent over the years that we have had in 3 or 4 players. Spikes alone this past season was worth two of any of our players. Other years he had even better players all around and still did nothing. What the owner does in the media or otherwise doesn't, or shouldn't impact what a coach/coordinator does w/ the talent that he does have on the field.

[Earthquake Enyart]

The weather had more to do with the reduced opponent scoring during the last 7 games than Gray did.

[WG]

Originally posted by Earthquake Enyart
The weather had more to do with the reduced opponent scoring during the last 7 games than Gray did.

Naturally! I'll take the more optimistic approach that the team started to come together some and that there was actually some improvement.

:rolleyes:

:deadhorse

:z:

[Typ0]

WYS: the reason you hire someone is because they are currently a good fit for the organization. People are very niave to think you have to get promoted or move latterally to have it be a positive move. LeBeau was in a no win situation in Cincinnatti. Sure he got a shot at being a head coach but it also damaged his ability to attract more offers as a head coach because he wasn't part of a successful organization. It's unlikely he will be able to move into another head coaching spot this season also because there are more coaches available than there are openings. So he has to move down the ladder a bit. The worst thing he can do for his career right now is take a DC spot on a questionable defense for if he also is not effective in that position he would likely irreputably damage his career becuase of his recent past. For this reason it is in his best interest to take a lower profile position on defense because if the defense is not successful it will not point back to him as being accountable. If the defense is successful we can point to him as a contributor to that defense. For this reason it is better for his career to accept a lower profile position this season on a rising defense. He's a smart guy and doing what's best for his career. He should feel good about that.

As far as the Bills go, we get a good defensive mind and I'm sure there was a long talk between GW, JG and DL about what and how LeBeau was going to bring his skills to the table. If TD, GW and JG don't envision LeBeau fitting in effectively and adding value to the team they don't hire him.

[Typ0]

You only take that optimistic approach because it's a rationalization for you to assert the offense completely fell apart.

[Earthquake Enyart]

Yeah, like you're optimistic about Drew. :rolleyes:

[Akhippo]

Why is everybody so bent on the notion that DL is coming in to take over JG's job. As much as players can learn from a coach with experience, coaches if open to advice, can learn from other coaches with alot more experience. I see it as a positive. I dont think DL would be a disruptive influence. Hell hes not Doug Flutie. We dont need pages of stats on the defense to know they didnt have talent but improved. But if DL could show JG maybe some nuiances as so maybe a better D to play in a certain situation, maybe difference way to blitz. Its a postive. Dont knock it till ya tried it.

[justasportsfan]

WYS
"First 5 games the Bills as a team allowed: 180 pts.

Middle 6 games the Bills as a team allowed: 137 pts.

Last 5 games the Bills as a team allowed: 80 pts. "

I get it! Take away the best and worst five games and you come up with..........:D

[Voltron]

I wonder how many pages it would take to put all of Wys's posts in a book!? 1000?? 10000?!

We could do chapters

Chapter 1 Why Wys hates Drew

Chapter 2 Why wys hates Kevin

.....


:D


;)

[Voltron]

Originally posted by Wys Guy
I prefer the more optimistic approach of giving the unit the benefit of the doubt that those improvements will stick, especially when we add some talent to the D, eh.


WHEN DO YOU EVER TAKE AN OPTIMISTIC APPROACH????? :huh:

[venis2k1]

Originally posted by Tatonka
here comes good old dicky lebeau, running onto the field with the water juggs...

"need a squirt ruben? how bout you Big Mike? Drew, you thirsty? I got fresh water here.. come and get it.. fresh water!"

GW is gonna be the only one running out with juggs on opening day.

[Earthquake Enyart]

:lol:

[WG]

Originally posted by Voltron



WHEN DO YOU EVER TAKE AN OPTIMISTIC APPROACH????? :huh:

When do I take a pessimistic one?

What, b/c I think 1 asst. coach is highly overrated and helped see to it that we didn't make the playoffs, and simply b/c I think Drew is quite a bit overrated, even though I like all the other coaches, or don't have anything against them particularly, and b/c I think our offense should revolve around Henry instead of Drew and the passing game, for that I'm negative?

No! The reason is that too many of you have too thin a skin and too great an emotional attachment to Drew. That's why. I call it as it is, not as it isn't. 9 TDs/15 INTs/18 total TOs in 7 losses is bad. I know, I know, not in Buffalo. Just everywhere else in the league.

But b/c that factoid concerns me, I'm construed as negative.

Go figure! Meanwhile, I'll be thinking that Henry could have been a 2,000 yard RB this past season and can be again, and you keep calling me pessimistic. Feel free. :)

Again, :deadhorse

[Typ0]

WYS: My comment was mostly pointed at the way you say the following:

later in the season as the weather degraded our defense allowed more points...it's because the defense improved.

later in the season as the weather degraded our offense scored less points...it's because Bledsoe sucks in the big games.

Those two statements are contridictory. I can't be responsible for where people took the comments.

[WG]

Here we go again!

See, ya really gotta read in order to comment appropriately!

First of all, the D allowed fewer, not more, as the season went on.

Now, here's the deal:

Some want to blame the weather. Here's exactly why that can't be done. Read it carefully before continuing to maintain this position. I'm just spent 10 or 15 minutes collecting that data, so the least that anyone can do who wants to continue to maintain that position is to take 2 minutes and read it!!

The Bills offense started fading in game 7/week 7 while the Bills D also started improving in game 7/week 7.

Offense:

Wk 7/Gm 7: Offense 16 pts. Weather: Sunny, 85, 69% hum., lt. winds

Wk 8/Gm 8: Offense put up only 24 at home v. Detroit which was largely set up w/ good FP by the D. Weather: Cloudy, 47, 56% h, lt. to md. winds

Wk 9/Gm 9: Offense 7 points. Weather: Cloudy, 40, 56% h, no wind

Wk 11/Gm 10: Offense put up only 16 points against a very weak K.C. D. D held K.C., the league's most potent O to only 17. Weather: Sunny, 48, 62% h, lt. winds


Wk 12/Gm 11: Offense 13 points. D played OK, not great. 14 of the Jets 31 pts. and allowed only 17 otherwise. were set up by DB INTs giving the Jets excellent FP. Weather: Partly cloudy, 50, 66% h, lt. winds.

Wk 13/Gm 12: Offense 38 points. D played decently allowing only 21 points. Weather: Snow, 25, 72% h, lt. to mod. winds. What happened here if the weather was such a huge factor!! Worst weather game all year!!

Wk 14/Gm 13: Offense 17 points, 7 of which were set up by the D giving us very good FP, another 7 of which came in the last minute of the game. Defense allowed only 10 pts. not off TOs, and only 13 that weren't set up by Bledsoe and Price virtually giving the Pats TDs w/ outstanding FP. D played well. Weather: Partly cloudy, 44, lt. to mod. winds

Wk 15/Gm 14: Offense only 20 pts. against a weak S.D. D. 7 of which came only when we gave up on Drew and ran Henry w/ only minutes remaining. 13 otherwise. D played very well allowing 13. Weather: Lt. rain, 36, 86% h, lt. to mod. winds

Wk 16/Gm 15: Offense played poorly, D played well. Weather was a factor in this game! Nevertheless, Green ran well on a much more balanced O, 35 dropbacks to 26 runs, 1.3 ratio, to 42 dropbacks to only 20 runs, 2.1 ratio. Ie., why didn't we run more!

Wk 17/Gm 16: Offense played OK, not impressively against a horrible Cincy squad scoring 27 points, 24 of which were set up by the D with GREAT FP: Cincy 11: FG, BUF 45: TD, BUF 46 TD, BUF 42, TD. D played great allowing only 9 points and giving the O great FP all day long. Weather: Mostly cloudy, 36, 66% h, lt. winds

So you see, there were only two games below freezing. The Miami game in which Drew had his second best, or third, game of the year! That was the worst weather game that we played all year long and he played well.

The only other "weather game" was the G.B. game and I'll give your side of the argument that one. But that's it. If Drew can't play when the weather's in the high 30s, 40s, or 50s and nice otherwise, then let's find a QB who can.

But this just proves that this weather argument is terminally flawed and just a line of B.S. with which to artificially defend Drew. Weather was not a significant factor, and if it was, since the foregone conclusion is that when it's in the 40s we can expect Drew to lead the O to only between 13 and 20 points, and since we really didn't have a bad weather season this year in Buffalo, then I would strongly suggest finding a QB that isn't going to put up 18 TOs in 7 games resulting in losses as a result.

So can we agree to hang up this "weather argument" b/c it makes absolutely no sense please! This is intellectual dishonesty here to be perfectly tactful. Intellectual laziness and utter bias to be more terse.

;)

[Typ0]

WHAWHAWHA. Sorry for my Typ0 I did mean fewer not more I was just typing faster than I was thinking.

I don't mean to dwell on the weather arguement either. The fact remains our defensive performance seemed to rise as our offensive performance fell. The same can be said for the teams opposing us. If we were doing a study on this and the data you present is what we gathered, a responsible analyst would completely dismiss the study as inconclusive and not pointing to any particular outcome. Why? Because there is a strict correlation between between a rising defensive performance and a falling offensive one in these games that cannot be explained through the data because the trends are consistent on the oppositions side of the ball as well. A responsible analyst would conclude there needed to be more study not of the subject matter but potential variables that are affecting the subject matter that were not included with the study. This is why the weather arguement gets cited because the hardest variables to identify are environmental variables. If the study fails to identify a highly correlated environmental variable it is inconclusive. Another example of an environmental variable would be the refs.

You haven't done anything to debunk the weather arguement either. In order to do that you would need to look at any weather anomolies during play on the field that had an effect on the game. A light wind in the fall at the outset of a game can easily cause a lot of problems on the field during the game. A lower temperature can help a QB to throw the ball but hinder a receiver because the ball is much more difficult to catch. Another thing you neglect is there simply is not enough observations to draw a conclusion like you have drawn. Just because there is a strong environmental correlation that does not mean any correllation is one-to-one. So it's completely feasible we sucked in the wind and snow but we still scored a considerable amount of points in those conditions. In order to determine this you would need a significant number of observations which are not available but you cannot infer something about a population from one observation.

[WG]

Pure opinion.

The facts say exactly how many points we scored, offensive, defensively, and STs.

The facts tell us how many TOs Drew had in 7 losses, 18 to be exact.

The facts tell us how many points we allowed and where opponents started their drives, etc.

Sure, we don't have wind and snow stats for the 9 square feet around Price as he was dropping another long ball, or inconsistencies in the field such as a 2 mm rise or a rut from another player's cleats in the level of the grass where Drew was planting, so yeah, I can see your point(s).

Otherwise, in order to avoid insanity, I think we have to look at things that are little higher level.

Oh yeah, and moisture content on Drew's hands I'm sure was a factor as well.

I don't care about that. What I care about is us playing well against the AFC East next season and against Philly, Tennessee, the Giants, and Dallas.

All I'm saying is that averaging in the mid-teens for points scored next season certainly isn't going to win us many games, even in the face of a defense that allowed about the same, both over the last 10 games of this past season.

Say whatever you want about the nits, but that's just unacceptable with the talent we have on O. Nor would it win us many games, even with a top D.

[BillC]

What the hell does any of this hyperbole have to do with offerong a qualified guy a job?


He's qualified. TD wants him on board. 'nuff said...stat boy....