Why Losman is a worse QB then Leaf

[TacklingDummy]

Ryan Leaf might have been a good QB if he had the talent JP Losman had around him his 1st year. Losman was in alot better situation then what Leaf was. And Leaf was on a 4-12 team the prevouis year compared to Losman who's team was 9-7 and 1 win away from the playoffs the prevouis year.

QB Losman
RB McGahee
WR Evans
WR Moulds

QB Leaf
RB Means
WR Charlie Jones
WR Bryan Still
WR Mikheal Ricks

That's what I don't get about when people want to compare Losman to other QBs. Losman had alot more talent around him then other QBs that were Busts.

People want to compare Losman to Elway, well Elway his first year didn't have the talent around him that Losman had.

QB Elway
RB by committee: Sammy Winder, Dave Preston, Gerald Willhite, Nathan Poole
WR: Rick Upchurch
WR: Steve Watson
WR: Zack Thomas

And OMG, People want to compare Losman to Favre and Mannings first year. Their first year numbers will be better then anything JP does in his entire career.

So in conclusion, JP had talent around him to succeed. But yet he dropped the ball.

[The_Philster]

First of all, Losman hasn't been compared to any of those QBs...their names are brought up as a history lesson for those who aren't bright enough to remember that first-year QBs almost never produce that first year.
Secondly, Leaf was a head case...made enemies with everyone on the team as well as the fans...Losman's nothing like that.

[TacklingDummy]

Leaf was a head case...made enemies with everyone on the team as well as the fans...Losman's nothing like that.

According to Ice, Losman wasn't liked by Milloy, Moulds, Adams.

[The_Philster]

According to Ice, Losman wasn't liked by Milloy, Moulds, Adams.
1...I really couldn't care less what ICE says
2...3 players doesn't equal everyone by any means

[ICE74129]

According to Ice, Losman wasn't liked by Milloy, Moulds, Adams.

he wasn't. They led a revolt against him. Who is still here, who is gone.

[TacklingDummy]

First of all, Losman hasn't been compared to any of those QBs...their names are brought up as a history lesson for those who aren't bright enough to remember that first-year QBs almost never produce that first year.


Peyton Manning produced.
Brett Favre also did.
Tom Brady
Big Ben
Michael Vick.
Jim Kelly
Dan Marino
Jake Delhomme (1st year as starter)
Daunte Culpepper

Wow, looking back on all these good QBs 1st year starting really opens my eyes. Losman is terrible.

[TacklingDummy]

2...3 players doesn't equal everyone by any means

Im sure it was alot more then 3 truth be known.

[The_Philster]

Peyton Manning produced. 3-13...yeah...dynamite...he didn't look that good that year
Brett Favre also did.
Tom Brady
Big Ben...stocked roster surrounding him
Michael Vick...he still hasn't become more than an average QB
Jim Kelly...2 years in the USFL
Dan Marino...team came off a Super Bowl loss...this was before free agency..odds are the team was stocked like the 2004 Steelers was for Big Ben
Jake Delhomme (1st year as starter)..got a little bit of action before that year..maybe enough to help him :idunno:...I haven't watched him much
Daunte Culpepper..name 1 QB that wasn't producing for Green's Vikings..they had what...9 QBs in 8 years and were consistently in the playoffs?

[Dr. Lecter]

Losman is NOT worse than Leaf.

End of story.

And, ICE, are you calling Adams and Moulds liars? They have pretty complimentary of JP since they left.

[The_Philster]

Losman is NOT worse than Leaf.

End of story.

And, ICE, are you calling Adams and Moulds liars? They have pretty complimentary of JP since they left.
Moulds was pretty complimentary of JP before he left as well..according to Moulds, all differences were resolved

[TacklingDummy]

Manning 26 TDs 28 INTs 3739 yards. That's great for a 1st year starter.

Favre: 18 TDs 13 INts 3227 yards. Not bad for 1st year starting. And only having 1 weapon his 1st year (Sharp), not 3 like Losman had.

All you listed was a bunch of excuses. Losman defenders have many of those.

Fact is Losman had alot of talent around him to succeed more then most QBs.

[TacklingDummy]

Losman is NOT worse than Leaf.

End of story.


Give Leaf the talent around him Losman had and Leaf wouldn't look half as bad.

[Typ0]

According to Ice, Losman wasn't liked by Milloy, Moulds, Adams.

what a great source you have...ICE...LMAO.

What I am to understand was these vertans didn't like the way that Losman was given the job...and that is understandable. I would like to see ONE credible source that says these guys didn't like JP. What they didn't like was the situation.

[Iehoshua]

Worst thread in Zone history...

[THATHURMANATOR]

Ryan Leaf might have been a good QB if he had the talent JP Losman had around him his 1st year. Losman was in alot better situation then what Leaf was. And Leaf was on a 4-12 team the prevouis year compared to Losman who's team was 9-7 and 1 win away from the playoffs the prevouis year.

QB Losman
RB McGahee
WR Evans
WR Moulds

QB Leaf
RB Means
WR Charlie Jones
WR Bryan Still
WR Mikheal Ricks

That's what I don't get about when people want to compare Losman to other QBs. Losman had alot more talent around him then other QBs that were Busts.

People want to compare Losman to Elway, well Elway his first year didn't have the talent around him that Losman had.

QB Elway
RB by committee: Sammy Winder, Dave Preston, Gerald Willhite, Nathan Poole
WR: Rick Upchurch
WR: Steve Watson
WR: Zack Thomas

And OMG, People want to compare Losman to Favre and Mannings first year. Their first year numbers will be better then anything JP does in his entire career.

So in conclusion, JP had talent around him to succeed. But yet he dropped the ball.
EE see what happens when we are away.... :ill:

[OpIv37]

Guys, don't bother arguing with TD on this. He hates Losman, end of story.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Agreed OP! I think I will go have a couple beers!

[OpIv37]

Agreed OP! I think I will go have a couple beers!

there's an idea- wish I could join you but I have to shower then finally get to work on this damn paper...

[Bill Cody]

IMO Marv did quietly make some calls on JP- and found out he was worth almost nothing in trade. If a 1st day pick had been offered- and God knows if anyone had even vague interest in Lossman they would have inquired after all the trade rumors- Lossman would be out of WNY. After the fact of course Marv's not stupid enough to admit he was shopping him.

The funny thing is for three years the problem was Bledsoe and now the problem is the OL. Lossman blows.

[jmb1099]

Oh brother...
TD...you need new material. Until you're willing to give Losman the credit he deserves (Kansas city) you have no credibility in this issue.

[The_Philster]

Give Leaf the talent around him Losman had and Leaf wouldn't look half as bad.
no matter how much talent, he had around him, Leaf will always look like a POS..he's like T.O. without the ability to shut his mouth for even the short times that T.O. has

[OpIv37]

no matter how much talent, he had around him, Leaf will always look like a POS..he's like T.O. without the ability to shut his mouth for even the short times that T.O. has

Phil, you're wasting your time. If TD makes a Losman thread, just don't bother opening it. He won't cut Losman any slack until he wins a SB, and even that may not cut it.

[The_Philster]

Phil, you're wasting your time. If TD makes a Losman thread, just don't bother opening it. He won't cut Losman any slack until he wins a SB, and even that may not cut it.
Oh I know it's pointless...I just get a kick out of watching him make a fool of himself trying to counter my posts :snicker:

[OpIv37]

Oh I know it's pointless...I just get a kick out of watching him make a fool of himself trying to counter my posts :snicker:

well as long as you're enjoying it, it's all good.

[The_Philster]

I'd stick him on ignore if he were irritating...cause it's not like I'd miss anything :idunno:

[YardRat]

If Marv believed Losman was the answer at QB, he wouldn't have signed Nall and told him he was going to get a chance to be the starter. 'Nuff said.

[Dr. Lecter]

I hope he at least gives him a chance.

Don't you?

[Kerr]

If Marv believed Losman was the answer at QB, he wouldn't have signed Nall and told him he was going to get a chance to be the starter. 'Nuff said.

How else did you expect Marv to get nall over here? By promising first dibs for 3rd string(which I think he'll end up). Marv always believed a good competition brings out the best in some players so you're going to see who has a better grasp of the new system and who's the better fit for the offense. Even Jim Kelly, said he had to bust his ass every season because reich wasn't far behind him. Competition isn't always a bad thing.

[TacklingDummy]

Oh brother...
TD...you need new material. Until you're willing to give Losman the credit he deserves (Kansas city) you have no credibility in this issue.

Credit? Credit? For what? Having 7 out of 9 drives 5 plays or less? The defense won that game. End of story.

[OpIv37]

If Marv believed Losman was the answer at QB, he wouldn't have signed Nall and told him he was going to get a chance to be the starter. 'Nuff said.

I think it all could be BS- one of the big problems with Losman and the vets last year was a lack of a camp competition.

This could just be Marv trying to appease them when he really knows JP's the guy.

If Marv DOESN'T think that JP's the answer, I would hope he could come up with something better than Craig ****ing Nall. It annoys me how the Bills constantly take other team's rejects and benchwarmers to be starters.

[TacklingDummy]

no matter how much talent, he had around him, Leaf will always look like a POS..he's like T.O. without the ability to shut his mouth for even the short times that T.O. has


No, Leaf was sit up to fail. He had no talent around him. Just like Alex Smith. Losman had talent around him and failed. Big difference.

[The_Philster]

I think it all could be BS- one of the big problems with Losman and the vets last year was a lack of a camp competition.and let's face it, Holcomb's not good enough to compete :ill:

[YardRat]

I hope he at least gives him a chance.

Don't you?

Yes, I do. But the fact remains...We have a serviceable, some think starter material, veteran in Holcomb and a young physical speciman with 'all the tools' already on the roster. Why bring in another QB to compete for the job unless you're not confident the guy you already have is going to be able to lead the team?

[Dr. Lecter]

No, Leaf was sit up to fail. He had no talent around him. Just like Alex Smith. Losman had talent around him and failed. Big difference.

Gandy-Anderson-Teague-Villarriall-Williams/Peters.

Losman played 8 games. Not enough to evaluate.

[The_Philster]

No, Leaf was sit up to fail. He had no talent around him. Just like Alex Smith. Losman had talent around him and failed. Big difference.
Funny thing was, Losman and Smith didn't blast fans, media, and teammates the way that loser :loser: Leaf did

[YardRat]

How else did you expect Marv to get nall over here? By promising first dibs for 3rd string(which I think he'll end up). Marv always believed a good competition brings out the best in some players so you're going to see who has a better grasp of the new system and who's the better fit for the offense. Even Jim Kelly, said he had to bust his ass every season because reich wasn't far behind him. Competition isn't always a bad thing.

Nobody, and I repeat NOBODY, was ever brought into Buffalo to compete for Jim Kelly's job. Even when Kelly was hurt, the team was winning with Reich, and a certain faction of fans believed Frank should continue to be the starter, Marv Levy made it clear that Jim Kelly was the starting QB for that team, period.

[Kerr]

Nobody, and I repeat NOBODY, was ever brought into Buffalo to compete for Jim Kelly's job. Even when Kelly was hurt, the team was winning with Reich, and a certain faction of fans believed Frank should continue to be the starter, Marv Levy made it clear that Jim Kelly was the starting QB for that team, period.

I get you, but this is a different situation here. We're talking about two unproven qb's and a fringe veteran qb. Losman has the most talent, but he can't just be handed the job. Look at the commotion it caused. Yeah, qbs shouldn't lose their jobs because of injuries, if they are winning that is. Lucky for JK, he did just that.

[realdealryan]

Gets a bit slow during the offseason, huh?

[Philagape]

If Marv believed Losman was the answer at QB, he wouldn't have signed Nall and told him he was going to get a chance to be the starter. 'Nuff said.

Nobody knows if JP is the answer or not. No one can determine that in 8 games.

We needed a third QB anyway.

[Throne Logic]

1...I really couldn't care less what ICE says
2...3 players doesn't equal everyone by any means

heh, "means", funny . . . :D:

[evol4276]

First of all, Losman hasn't been compared to any of those QBs...their names are brought up as a history lesson for those who aren't bright enough to remember that first-year QBs almost never produce that first year.
Secondly, Leaf was a head case...made enemies with everyone on the team as well as the fans...Losman's nothing like that.

i love how you can tell that after all the games the guy played. it was his first playing year, he didnt even play the whole damn year. what do you expect from the guy after how many games he started. hmm, didn't eli have as good if not better core than jp in 2004? toomer(decent) shockey, tiki.. yet look, bad numbers. it's good to want to see better out of a person who is learning the professional style, but expecting the guy to be like a tom brady or roethelisburger after a few games is just plain rediculous. come on now. leaf sucked plain and simple.. i'll watch him for another year before i cast those judgements

[Throne Logic]

The approach Marv and Dick are taking is absolutely what they have to do. Given what happened last year, the best way to wipe the slate clean and re-establish the starting QB for this team is an open competition. If JP is the most talented of the three, he will rise to the top and "earn" the starting job.

Now, here is where things will be different. Whomever wins that starting job (which I am expecting JP to do), there will be no 4 game hook this year. He will be the starter and this staff and management will support him as the guy, just like they did with Jim Kelly. There will be no wishy washy crap this season.

[THATHURMANATOR]

No, Leaf was sit up to fail. He had no talent around him. Just like Alex Smith. Losman had talent around him and failed. Big difference.
nope you are wrong....

[Pinkerton Security]

If Marv believed Losman was the answer at QB, he wouldn't have signed Nall and told him he was going to get a chance to be the starter. 'Nuff said.

Hey Craig, you should come sit behind a 25 year old hotshot and a 33-year old washup, just in case you didnt have enough of sitting behind possibly the best Qb in the history of the league......We'll give you a shot tho....



fellas Nall is a backup brought in to motivate Losman, just as others have said, even if Levy is getting senile, hes not that dumb...if they bet the farm on Craig F'in nall and/or Kelly "Im Greying Like a MF'er" Holcomb, than we should get his rear end out of that position cuz its suicide

[Joe Fo Sho]

Brett Farve....18 td's....13 int's...3227 yds

If you take into account the fact that losman played 8 games, and multiply his stats by 2...

JP......16 td's.....16 int's....2744 yds

Also take into account the fact that JP's O-line was awful, the turmoil within the organization, losman is COMPARABLE. He's no Ryan Leaf...that's kind of a bold billy statement.

And try to compare Mularkey to Holmgren....

Correct me if i'm wrong, but i believe green bay had an all star coaching staff including gruden, mariucci, and andy reid

Way to early to make that statement TD....

[Pinkerton Security]

Brett Farve....18 td's....13 int's...3227 yds

If you take into account the fact that losman played 8 games, and multiply his stats by 2...

JP......16 td's.....16 int's....2744 yds

Also take into account the fact that JP's O-line was awful, the turmoil within the organization, losman is COMPARABLE. He's no Ryan Leaf...that's kind of a bold billy statement.

And try to compare Mularkey to Holmgren....

Correct me if i'm wrong, but i believe green bay had an all star coaching staff including gruden, mariucci, and andy reid

Way to early to make that statement TD....




Great post, every fact is right on, that coaching staff is possibly one of the most star-studded staffs ever. Losman is definitely comparable with those projections. I still can not compare JP to that sort of Qb, but there is no way you can gauge a Qb by 8 starts in the NFL, most greats are given a solid shot, which is hopefully what the Bills will give JP this year.

[Jan Reimers]

Threads like this, with so much bias and so little logic, make it very difficult not to attack the thread starter.

So all I will say is this: TD should really seek some professional help for his unhealthy obsession with JP.

[SquishDaFish]

We need a thread....Why TacklingIDIOT needs to be banned or IGNORED by every member so he will go away! WORTHLESS!

[jmb1099]

Credit? Credit? For what? Having 7 out of 9 drives 5 plays or less? The defense won that game. End of story.
See this is exactly the point, so which qb should be credited with the win holcomb or Losman? Before you began furiously typing on your keyboard let me remind you of a stastic from that game that for most normal people would be a clear indicator

Out of the 14 points that the Bills scored, how many of those did Kelly Kolcomb have anything to do with? Go ahead...take a minute....I know this can be hard....the answer of course is non, 0, zip, nada. It is a fact that Losman tossed both tds which equal exactly all of the points scored by the Bills that day.

Soooo which QB should get the credit for the win and it will be right here that you continue to lose credibility because it will be here that you concoct some hair brained rationale for why Holcomb should be given the win while scoring axactly 0 points and sitting on the sidelines.

And as far as the " The defense won that game. End of story." stuff...they played a decent game that day but also were responsible for scoring 0 points. It was only the "end of story" because you wanted it to be, but the issue is not as cut and dry is you keep trying to make it. Personally I think the real issue here is that you have found the one issue that will get you the attention you seem to crave so badly. Its border line obbsessive. We heard your opinion of JP the first 72000 times, we all know you hate him we get it move on.

[X-Era]

Ryan Leaf might have been a good QB if he had the talent JP Losman had around him his 1st year. Losman was in alot better situation then what Leaf was. And Leaf was on a 4-12 team the prevouis year compared to Losman who's team was 9-7 and 1 win away from the playoffs the prevouis year.

QB Losman
RB McGahee
WR Evans
WR Moulds

QB Leaf
RB Means
WR Charlie Jones
WR Bryan Still
WR Mikheal Ricks

That's what I don't get about when people want to compare Losman to other QBs. Losman had alot more talent around him then other QBs that were Busts.

People want to compare Losman to Elway, well Elway his first year didn't have the talent around him that Losman had.

QB Elway
RB by committee: Sammy Winder, Dave Preston, Gerald Willhite, Nathan Poole
WR: Rick Upchurch
WR: Steve Watson
WR: Zack Thomas

And OMG, People want to compare Losman to Favre and Mannings first year. Their first year numbers will be better then anything JP does in his entire career.

So in conclusion, JP had talent around him to succeed. But yet he dropped the ball.

Lo comes after Le in the alphabet. Thats the ONLY way Losman is worse

[The_Philster]

Manning 26 TDs 28 INTs 3739 yards. That's great for a 1st year starter.

Favre: 18 TDs 13 INts 3227 yards. Not bad for 1st year starting. And only having 1 weapon his 1st year (Sharp), not 3 like Losman had.

All you listed was a bunch of excuses. Losman defenders have many of those.

Fact is Losman had alot of talent around him to succeed more then most QBs.
If you actually think having stocked rosters weren't keys to the success of Marino and Big Ben, you need to stop watching football cause it's obvious you don't understand that it's the ultimate team game...there's not a player, no matter the position, in the history of the league that's ever won a game on his own

[patmoran2006]

We need a thread....Why TacklingIDIOT needs to be banned or IGNORED by every member so he will go away! WORTHLESS!

Grow up...

Whether he likes JP Losman or hates him, he has a right to whatever opinion he wants to take.. If you dont like it dont read it. He needs to be banned or ignored so he will go away? Real mature.

For the record, its ridiculous to compare JP Losman to Ryan Leaf. Leaf was a basket-case and a much more expensive one at that.

[The_Philster]

I agree with pat...we can't ban TDummy just because his posts are pure nonsense and stupidity...if he irritates you that much, stick him on ignore. I had him on ignore then I realized I missed having his posts to laugh at :idunno:

[patmoran2006]

I agree with pat...we can't ban TDummy just because his posts are pure nonsense and stupidity...if he irritates you that much, stick him on ignore. I had him on ignore then I realized I missed having his posts to laugh at :idunno:

That exactly how I feel about Ice's posts.. the MODS have Ice on MANDATORY ignore for me.. Maybe that' a good thing though.

[theBlackBear]

We need a thread....Why TacklingIDIOT needs to be banned or IGNORED by every member so he will go away! WORTHLESS!

You are too hard on the TD. He is really a great guy!

[TacklingDummy]

We need a thread....Why TacklingIDIOT needs to be banned or IGNORED by every member so he will go away! WORTHLESS!


Will the Mods please do something about name calling?

Calling me names and my posts worthless only back up my posts as being true. You go with name calling cause you can't debate the opinion based facts.

It's true Leaf had less talent around him then what JP had. JP should of played much better then what he did with the talent he had around him.

[feelthepain]

Manning 26 TDs 28 INTs 3739 yards. That's great for a 1st year starter.

Favre: 18 TDs 13 INts 3227 yards. Not bad for 1st year starting. And only having 1 weapon his 1st year (Sharp), not 3 like Losman had.

All you listed was a bunch of excuses. Losman defenders have many of those.

Fact is Losman had alot of talent around him to succeed more then most QBs.

It was Losmans second year and while he didn't play because of injury his first year he had two years to study the system, so he knew what to do, why didn't he produce???

[feelthepain]

Will the Mods please do something about name calling?

Calling me names and my posts worthless only back up my posts as being true. You go with name calling cause you can't debate the opinion based facts.

It's true Leaf had less talent around him then what JP had. JP should of played much better then what he did with the talent he had around him.

There are quite a few fans here that refuse to keep it about football and if you don't write what they want you to write they attack people....it's very immature and happens quite a bit. Just ignore the poster and only respond to the people old enough to to be here without adult supervision.

[patmoran2006]

It was Losmans second year and while he didn't play because of injury his first year he had two years to study the system, so he knew what to do, why didn't he produce???

You could say the same thing for about 45 other people on the roster last year that "didnt produce", JP doesnt deserve to be signaled out.

I dont blame his "youth" for playing that bad.. I blame the horrible coaching staff we had last year.

That being said, Losman has a LONG way to go. While his long ball was PROVEN to be among the league's prettiest last year, his decisions in the pocket and oft-inaccurate throws need a TON of work.

Love him or hate him, I think he's starting this year. Holcomb is what Holcomb is, and that's a backup who can step in when needed. I refuse to buy into Craig Nall starting. Since we arent going to take a QB, IMO that leaves Losman to start.

[TacklingDummy]

See this is exactly the point, so which qb should be credited with the win holcomb or Losman?

As unfair as it is, the win will goto Holcomb. They keep track of how QBs did as starters. And when you look it up or when the announcers talk about it next year it will go like this, Bills were 4-4 when Holcomb started and 1-7 when JP did.

It's unfair but that's the way it will work.

[Philagape]

I don't care if you have Tomlinson, Owens, Moss and Gates as your weapons; if you don't have a line, you're going to get killed.

[The_Philster]

As unfair as it is, the win will goto Holcomb. They keep track of how QBs did as starters. And when you look it up or when the announcers talk about it next year it will go like this, Bills were 4-4 when Holcomb started and 1-7 when JP did.

It's unfair but that's the way it will work.
Who's "they?" Wins-losses isn't a QB stat...nor should it be...it's a team game

[Philagape]

As unfair as it is, the win will goto Holcomb. They keep track of how QBs did as starters. And when you look it up or when the announcers talk about it next year it will go like this, Bills were 4-4 when Holcomb started and 1-7 when JP did.

What possible reason can there be to bring up this irrelevant and meaningless point other than personal bias?

(btw, I have the poster on ignore and read this only after it was quoted. Further reinforcement of why he belongs on ignore. Hatred is not intelligence.)

[TacklingDummy]

I don't care if you have Tomlinson, Owens, Moss and Gates as your weapons; if you don't have a line, you're going to get killed.

Now that's what I don't get.


Alot of people say that Holcomb is a bum with a weak arm. Yet he played with the same O-line and the offense looked 10 times better.

If JP is so much more talented then Holcomb, shouldn't he of played better then Holcomb?

Im tired of the O-line excuse. It's a Johnson a excuse.

When Bledsoe was here, Bledsoe took the heat. Now it's the O-line's fault.

[TacklingDummy]

Who's "they?" Wins-losses isn't a QB stat...nor should it be...it's a team game

You know as well as I know that they keep track of Win/Loss stats. for QBs.

And JP is 1-7.

[The_Philster]

You know as well as I know that they keep track of Win/Loss stats. for QBs.

And JP is 1-7.
:link: I repeat Who's "they?" :liar2:

[Philagape]

Did he just reply to me AFTER I said I had him on ignore? :crazy:

[The_Philster]

Did he just reply to me AFTER I said I had him on ignore? :crazy:
no...it was to me...he was completely avoiding my question

[TacklingDummy]

nope you are wrong....

Im wrong that Losman had more talent to work with then Leaf his 1st year as starter?

QB Leaf
RB Means
WR Charlie Jones
WR Bryan Still
WR Mikheal Ricks

Losman
Evans
Moulds
McGahee

No, im not wrong.

[Philagape]

no...it was to me...he was completely avoiding my question

:whew: That would have been funny

[TacklingDummy]

:link: I repeat Who's "they?" :liar2:

I don't know who "they" are.

Who's the announcers for the Bills first game this year?

[TacklingDummy]

:link: I repeat Who's "they?" :liar2:

So I guess you have never heard people say Brett Favre record is....Jim Kelly...Marino....etc...

[TacklingDummy]

:whew: That would have been funny

What's funny is, he has me on ignore but yet are in my thread.:spade:

[The_Philster]

I don't know who "they" are.

Who's the announcers for the Bills first game this year?
I wasn't aware that TV announcers decide what official NFL stats were :rolleyes: Name me 1 player, QB or otherwise, that ever won a game on his own..I'm willing to bet you can't because in a team game, it's impossible

[The_Philster]

So I guess you have never heard people say Brett Favre record is....Jim Kelly...Marino....etc...
I've heard people say a lot of things..but I didn't win Most Gullible or Most Easily Made to look Foolish in high school

[feelthepain]

You could say the same thing for about 45 other people on the roster last year that "didnt produce", JP doesnt deserve to be signaled out.

I dont blame his "youth" for playing that bad.. I blame the horrible coaching staff we had last year.

That being said, Losman has a LONG way to go. While his long ball was PROVEN to be among the league's prettiest last year, his decisions in the pocket and oft-inaccurate throws need a TON of work.

Love him or hate him, I think he's starting this year. Holcomb is what Holcomb is, and that's a backup who can step in when needed. I refuse to buy into Craig Nall starting. Since we arent going to take a QB, IMO that leaves Losman to start.

You had the same coaching staff the year before and had a long winning streak and just missed the playoffs, the difference was you had more talent to work with in 04 then in 05.

[TacklingDummy]

You had the same coaching staff the year before and had a long winning streak and just missed the playoffs, the difference was you had more talent to work with in 04 then in 05.

And a better QB, no injuries, Pat Williams.

[TacklingDummy]

I've heard people say a lot of things..but I didn't win Most Gullible or Most Easily Made to look Foolish in high school


No, you were the guy peeking from behind a tree in the background of the picture of your High School Cheerleaders year book photo.


:) just kidding

[bledslow]

there was a lot of great points made in the opening post of this thread(and in the sig). now maybe the ppl who want to have losmans baby will see the light.

[jmb1099]

As unfair as it is, the win will goto Holcomb. They keep track of how QBs did as starters. And when you look it up or when the announcers talk about it next year it will go like this, Bills were 4-4 when Holcomb started and 1-7 when JP did.

It's unfair but that's the way it will work.
Be that as it may, the fact, the actuality of the this is that Holcomb did nothing, contrinuted nothing to the winning of that game. You can label anything anyway you want to it doesn't change the reality of the situation. Besides, I could care less how the announcers slant things one way or another, this is about a thread and topic you consistently beat to death, I'll know when your ready to really discuss the issue when you're ready to seriously discuss the issue. No disrespect intended, but until then you're just looking for attention any way you can get it and trying to sell your story to any would be buyers. You want good discussion you need to hold up your end of it. Losman gets credit for the points scored in the KC game. Here's my olive branch...if he doesn't show improvement this year than we need to consider going a different direction.

[TigerJ]

You've become the Zone's own Mr. Irrelevant, TD. The circumstances surrounding the two players, Leaf and Losman are completely different, beginning with the fact that Leaf had a lot more time under center before he proved himself to be a bust. Coaching was different. How 'bout their respective lines? You can't just take a handful of skill position players and start making comparisons.

We all know Warren G. Harding was a great president and Abraham Lincon was a bum because Lincoln led us into a terrible war while Harding kept the peace. Makes about as much sense.

[TacklingDummy]

You've become the Zone's own Mr. Irrelevant, TD. The circumstances surrounding the two players, Leaf and Losman are completely different, beginning with the fact that Leaf had a lot more time under center before he proved himself to be a bust. Coaching was different. How 'bout their respective lines? You can't just take a handful of skill position players and start making comparisons.



You're right, Leaf had a 4-12 team the prevouis year to work with, Losman had a 9-7 team, 1 win away from the playoffs to work with, the prevouis year.

Losman was in a hell of alot better situation his 1st year starting then Leaf was. No matter what way you look at it.

Leaf had Kevin Gilbride as OC. So theres not much of a difference.

[TigerJ]

Gilbride has had some successful tenures as an OC, but you ignored my main point. Leaf had ample time to prove he was no good. Plenty of QBs who started out struggling (more so and for longer than Losman) have gone on to successful NFL careers. I can't predict that Losman will be successful, but you have no ability or quallifications to predict he won't be based on the few games he has had the opportunity to play.

[feelthepain]

Gilbride has had some successful tenures as an OC, but you ignored my main point. Leaf had ample time to prove he was no good. Plenty of QBs who started out struggling (more so and for longer than Losman) have gone on to successful NFL careers. I can't predict that Losman will be successful, but you have no ability or quallifications to predict he won't be based on the few games he has had the opportunity to play.


I'm glad to see you aren't as harsh on your QB's as you are on rival teams QB's. I'm sure your patience wouldn't exist if JP were a Fin, no he would be labled a bust at this point especially given how bad he played last year. I'm not saying JP can't pull himself out of this, but you Bill fans sure know how to look at this situation with a different light when the QB is yours.

I give td credit, he's not making excuses , but looking at things as they stand at this point. Given the fact that TD drafted JP and used future picks to move up to get JP he has more to live up to. TD IMO did not have a good draft for the Bills the last couple of years and JP could very well be another one of his bad picks, at least it's a distinct possibility right now. Why do you Bill fans get upset with anyone "fan or rival" who doesn't love every player?? I think it's good that people speak how they feel about a teams talent what good is lying to yourself?? If you don't agree with another fans opinion just make that point and leave it at that.

[jmb1099]

I'm glad to see you aren't as harsh on your QB's as you are on rival teams QB's. I'm sure your patience wouldn't exist if JP were a Fin, no he would be labled a bust at this point especially given how bad he played last year. I'm not saying JP can't pull himself out of this, but you Bill fans sure know how to look at this situation with a different light when the QB is yours.

I give td credit, he's not making excuses , but looking at things as they stand at this point. Given the fact that TD drafted JP and used future picks to move up to get JP he has more to live up to. TD IMO did not have a good draft for the Bills the last couple of years and JP could very well be another one of his bad picks, at least it's a distinct possibility right now. Why do you Bill fans get upset with anyone "fan or rival" who doesn't love every player?? I think it's good that people speak how they feel about a teams talent what good is lying to yourself?? If you don't agree with another fans opinion just make that point and leave it at that.
This is actually a pretty good post. Tackling Dummy is not just not making excuses, he is activley choosing to ignore relevant information and until he stops doing that he gets no respect. Now I will grant you that there is a possibility that JP will never play any better than he did last year, but eight games experience with an inept coaching staff is not a good basis in which to make such a decision. Now I know you received quite a ribbing for the whole Feely thing and for the part I played in that I am truly sorry (I know don't fall off your chair I'm serious). You saw something in him that you thought could be developed and I can respect that. The problem I personally have with threads like this is that TD doesn't have the guts to paint an accurate picture. It would be one thing to say I think Losman sucks and then construct a decent well rounded argument, but to say He sucks and leave out factors like the o-line, it was his first year with any real playing time, the coaching staff was nuts, and such is not presenting an accurate argument. An accurate argument would be to say, I;m not happy with JP's performance last year, here are his numbers, now I realize he had xyz against him, but he still needs to step it up this year in order for me to be happy. It could very well be that he ends up being a bust, but based on everything we know right now there is no way to know that yet.

[TigerJ]

I'm glad to see you aren't as harsh on your QB's as you are on rival teams QB's. I'm sure your patience wouldn't exist if JP were a Fin, no he would be labled a bust at this point especially given how bad he played last year. I'm not saying JP can't pull himself out of this, but you Bill fans sure know how to look at this situation with a different light when the QB is yours.

I give td credit, he's not making excuses , but looking at things as they stand at this point. Given the fact that TD drafted JP and used future picks to move up to get JP he has more to live up to. TD IMO did not have a good draft for the Bills the last couple of years and JP could very well be another one of his bad picks, at least it's a distinct possibility right now. Why do you Bill fans get upset with anyone "fan or rival" who doesn't love every player?? I think it's good that people speak how they feel about a teams talent what good is lying to yourself?? If you don't agree with another fans opinion just make that point and leave it at that.

Is there a point here? If you're speaking of Bills fans in general, of course they're like fans of any other team. We like to pick on other teams, especially rivals. Miami fans are different? I sincerely doubt it. For the record, I doubt you can go into my history and find I've done many attack posts at all on other teams' players. I'd be surprised if you can find any at all where I initiated an unprovoked attack on anyone, especially a young player who really hasn't had a chance to demonstrate what he's capable of. Yeah, I did pile on when Ricky Williams was having his drug troubles, but I think that was a case where he had ample opportunity to earn disrespect around the league.

If you're sticking up for Tackling Dummy, I simply responded to his response. It's nothing personal. In a debate that's how it works. He started a thread that makes a claim. I think that claim is ridiculous and I said so. He came back with a counter that didn't address my main point and I called him on it. If you'll read my post carefully, I don't call JP the savior of the Bills or anything close to it. I'm simply saying it's too soon to call. I think in general fans are way too quick to label players "boom" or "bust." I'd love for JP to be a huge success, but I can't say he's going to be based on his career so far. He might well be a bust, but I simply don't think we've seen enough to make that determination.

[justasportsfan]

I'm glad to see you aren't as harsh on your QB's as you are on rival teams QB's. I'm sure your patience wouldn't exist if JP were a Fin, no he would be labled a bust at this point especially given how bad he played last year. I'm not saying JP can't pull himself out of this, but you Bill fans sure know how to look at this situation with a different light when the QB is yours.

I give td credit, he's not making excuses , but looking at things as they stand at this point. Given the fact that TD drafted JP and used future picks to move up to get JP he has more to live up to. TD IMO did not have a good draft for the Bills the last couple of years and JP could very well be another one of his bad picks, at least it's a distinct possibility right now. Why do you Bill fans get upset with anyone "fan or rival" who doesn't love every player?? I think it's good that people speak how they feel about a teams talent what good is lying to yourself?? If you don't agree with another fans opinion just make that point and leave it at that.
Oh shush. It's worse over at FH. Try talking football over there and finfans get their panties all tied up in a bunch.

If it's so bad here, leave. It's that simple.

[Mr. Pink]

This is actually a pretty good post. Tackling Dummy is not just not making excuses, he is activley choosing to ignore relevant information and until he stops doing that he gets no respect. Now I will grant you that there is a possibility that JP will never play any better than he did last year, but eight games experience with an inept coaching staff is not a good basis in which to make such a decision. Now I know you received quite a ribbing for the whole Feely thing and for the part I played in that I am truly sorry (I know don't fall off your chair I'm serious). You saw something in him that you thought could be developed and I can respect that. The problem I personally have with threads like this is that TD doesn't have the guts to paint an accurate picture. It would be one thing to say I think Losman sucks and then construct a decent well rounded argument, but to say He sucks and leave out factors like the o-line, it was his first year with any real playing time, the coaching staff was nuts, and such is not presenting an accurate argument. An accurate argument would be to say, I;m not happy with JP's performance last year, here are his numbers, now I realize he had xyz against him, but he still needs to step it up this year in order for me to be happy. It could very well be that he ends up being a bust, but based on everything we know right now there is no way to know that yet.

Alright well here's a fact to somewhat dispute the o-line being absolute garbage and that's the reason why JP was terrible. Holcomb and Losman had about the same number of pass attempts, was within 5 to 10. Losman was sacked 26 times to Holcombs 17.

Now unless you want to argue that the line played better while Holcomb was there, which opens another can of worms that the line for whatever reason doesn't like Losman, there are times when Losman simply held the ball for too long. Didn't hit his checkdown target fast enough.....etc.

And no I'm not saying Losman is worse than Leaf, BTW. He is no different than Kyle Boller though in my opinion.

[Philagape]

The main reason why JP struggled is inexperience.

[jmb1099]

Alright well here's a fact to somewhat dispute the o-line being absolute garbage and that's the reason why JP was terrible. Holcomb and Losman had about the same number of pass attempts, was within 5 to 10. Losman was sacked 26 times to Holcombs 17.

Now unless you want to argue that the line played better while Holcomb was there, which opens another can of worms that the line for whatever reason doesn't like Losman, there are times when Losman simply held the ball for too long. Didn't hit his checkdown target fast enough.....etc.

And no I'm not saying Losman is worse than Leaf, BTW. He is no different than Kyle Boller though in my opinion.
So are you saying then that our o-line was good? Are you saying that you'd play wiht the same line this year that we had last? Please tell me you're not saying that. Last years line was barely serviceable and that assessment may be generous. The poor line allowed Holcomb to do what he does best, throw dump off passes. Losman was, as has been pointed out numerous times, inexperienced and just learning how to play pro ball. On top of that, Losman does not have the dump ball mentality that Holcomb has. Even in the last mini camp report, when speaking of Holcomb, it mentioned that he was throwing mainly dump of type passes...who the heck was pressuring him in mini camp??? As I have said Losman needs to be better, must play better, but at least he has the potential to do so. What we had with Holcomb last year is as good as it gets.

[patmoran2006]

It is totally ******ED to label a QB a "bust" after starting all of 8 games.. How stupid can you get? Seriously. Good thing you dont remember Aikman, Manning, etc's first year as starters.. THey'd have been out of the league, after 16 games.

Calling a QB with 8 starts a "bust" carries as much credibility as Ice calling a QB (V Young) who's never played a NFL down yet, a "bust". Then again, I'm not surprised when I think of whom that's coming from.

To say he's sucked to this point, COULD be accurate.. TO compare him to Ryan Leaf is moronic.. Though you have a right to your opinion the same as everyone else.

[Mr. Pink]

It is totally ******ED to label a QB a "bust" after starting all of 8 games.. How stupid can you get? Seriously. Good thing you dont remember Aikman, Manning, etc's first year as starters.. THey'd have been out of the league, after 16 games.

Calling a QB with 8 starts a "bust" carries as much credibility as Ice calling a QB (V Young) who's never played a NFL down yet, a "bust". Then again, I'm not surprised when I think of whom that's coming from.

To say he's sucked to this point, COULD be accurate.. TO compare him to Ryan Leaf is moronic.. Though you have a right to your opinion the same as everyone else.

Actually Patrick it took Peyton about 5 games to "figure" out the pro game. He threw 11 INTs to 4 TDs in his first 4 starts.....his last 12? 23 TDs to 17 INTs. I love just proving you wrong and busting your chops. :rofl:

[patmoran2006]

He was 3-13, that's the most important stat.

[patmoran2006]

I think.. and Im too lazy to look it up

[Mr. Pink]

So are you saying then that our o-line was good? Are you saying that you'd play wiht the same line this year that we had last? Please tell me you're not saying that. Last years line was barely serviceable and that assessment may be generous. The poor line allowed Holcomb to do what he does best, throw dump off passes. Losman was, as has been pointed out numerous times, inexperienced and just learning how to play pro ball. On top of that, Losman does not have the dump ball mentality that Holcomb has. Even in the last mini camp report, when speaking of Holcomb, it mentioned that he was throwing mainly dump of type passes...who the heck was pressuring him in mini camp??? As I have said Losman needs to be better, must play better, but at least he has the potential to do so. What we had with Holcomb last year is as good as it gets.


Not saying that the offensive line that's in place now is good let alone last years attempt at one was good. But, good QBs can make average offensive lines look good and really good offensive lines can make average QBs look good.

Losman knew how "barely adequate" the line was, so he had to know that he had to get rid of the ball faster. The whole thing about him progressing during the year, I never noticed. He never seemed to hit his checkdowns any faster or better as the year progressed or dump offs. Maybe another year of playing will help him with this and he'll learn he can't make all the plays on his own. Which yes was a knock on him coming out of college....everyone in the NFL has athletic ability, unlike when he was at college and he could take over games on his own just because he was that much better than everyone else on the field. Especially when he was playing in one of the weaker NCAA football conferences.

The other reason why me and other posters wanted the brass to bring in a top of the line offensive lineman in from FA is that they tend to make the players around them better. We all label Mike Williams as a bust, sadly he was the best lineman we had, watch as he goes to another team has good players around him and shows why we spent the 4th overall pick to get him. Problem is another team reaps the benefits of our misfortunes.

[Mr. Pink]

He was 3-13, that's the most important stat.


By that logic Kyle Orton is one hell of an NFL QB as well.

[patmoran2006]

By that logic Kyle Orton is one hell of an NFL QB as well.

I dont know if he's one hell of a QB, but he's definitely one hell of a partier and a drinker. I gotta find it on deadspin.com, but that dude has some photos of some massive partying.

The way I see it, this message board is now less than a week away from ERRUPTING when we make our first draft pick.

[jmb1099]

Not saying that the offensive line that's in place now is good let alone last years attempt at one was good. But, good QBs can make average offensive lines look good and really good offensive lines can make average QBs look good.

Losman knew how "barely adequate" the line was, so he had to know that he had to get rid of the ball faster. The whole thing about him progressing during the year, I never noticed. He never seemed to hit his checkdowns any faster or better as the year progressed or dump offs. Maybe another year of playing will help him with this and he'll learn he can't make all the plays on his own. Which yes was a knock on him coming out of college....everyone in the NFL has athletic ability, unlike when he was at college and he could take over games on his own just because he was that much better than everyone else on the field. Especially when he was playing in one of the weaker NCAA football conferences.

The other reason why me and other posters wanted the brass to bring in a top of the line offensive lineman in from FA is that they tend to make the players around them better. We all label Mike Williams as a bust, sadly he was the best lineman we had, watch as he goes to another team has good players around him and shows why we spent the 4th overall pick to get him. Problem is another team reaps the benefits of our misfortunes.
No qb, no matter how good, no matter how much experience, will be successful behind a poor line. You mentioned giving him another year which is the only way we will know. As far as gradual improvement, he threw 3 td passes in the Miami game before poor coaching on both sides of the ball killed the game.

[Mr. Pink]

No qb, no matter how good, no matter how much experience, will be successful behind a poor line. You mentioned giving him another year which is the only way we will know. As far as gradual improvement, he threw 3 td passes in the Miami game before poor coaching on both sides of the ball killed the game.

True, he played a good half in that game. Then had his worst game of the season vs the Patriots before he sustained an "alleged" injury that had him on the bench the rest of the season.

Before you go well it's the Pats, that's to be expected. Teams after Rodney Harrison went down to injury threw all over the Pats defense.

While yes I do agree he may need another season before we can tell how good he is going to be, he showed little to no sustained progress over the course of the season. Sustained being the keyword. He did show flashes but would revert back to being outright terrible. Like I've said previously, he played about 5 good quarters out of the 34 he played during the year. Does this automatically make him a bust? No. Does it make me question how dedicated he is to the job and making himself better? Yes. Factor everything in, I'm not too comfortable with him being the signal caller for another year, at least at this time.

[jmb1099]

True, he played a good half in that game. Then had his worst game of the season vs the Patriots before he sustained an "alleged" injury that had him on the bench the rest of the season.

Before you go well it's the Pats, that's to be expected. Teams after Rodney Harrison went down to injury threw all over the Pats defense.

While yes I do agree he may need another season before we can tell how good he is going to be, he showed little to no sustained progress over the course of the season. Sustained being the keyword. He did show flashes but would revert back to being outright terrible. Like I've said previously, he played about 5 good quarters out of the 34 he played during the year. Does this automatically make him a bust? No. Does it make me question how dedicated he is to the job and making himself better? Yes. Factor everything in, I'm not too comfortable with him being the signal caller for another year, at least at this time.
Like I said, I don't think there is anyone here who believes his game play last year will be good enough this year. I'm not debating this to say he is wonderful and our football savior, nothing like that at all. What I am saying, and will continue to say is that there were some real crirtical issues last year that contributed to his poor gameplay including poor coaching, inexperience, poor oline peformance, bad chemistry between him and the #1 receiver and so on. Had the coaching not blown the Miami game to hell, I think we would have seen a sustained improvement over the rest of the season. But instead, they put him in a place to have his confidence shattered once again. Anyway, the only way to know about jp is to know and the only way to do that is to give him another crack at it. FTP migh be right about him being a poor Donahoe pick, but we will have to wait and see.

[TacklingDummy]

Alright well here's a fact to somewhat dispute the o-line being absolute garbage and that's the reason why JP was terrible. Holcomb and Losman had about the same number of pass attempts, was within 5 to 10. Losman was sacked 26 times to Holcombs 17.




People don't want to hear facts.

Like less sacks, more rushing yards when Holcomb was QB, better time of possession, more passing yards a game, the offense was just better in every area with the weaker arm Holcomb.

[TacklingDummy]

He was 3-13, that's the most important stat.


And Losman was 1-7 starting.

According to Philster they don't keep stats. for QBs W/L record though.

[TigerJ]

TD doesn't want to hear facts.

JP Losman was for all practical purposes a rookie last year. Typically rookie QBs don't perform well as rookies (ie. inexperienced players) yet they need to play to have a chance to get better.

More sacks than Holcomb? To be expected. To inexperienced QBs the game seems to move a lot faster because they tend not to see the field and make decisions as quickly. How do they get the experience to be able to see the the field more quickly and make quicker decisions? What do you know, they have to play!

The problem with Holcomb, is that even though the offence was better than with Losman, it still wasn't good enough. Holcomb has little or now upside. He's learned most of what he's going to learn from experience, but he's never going to become more athletic. He's never going to have a stronger arm. He's always going to have the tendency to move off his primary receiver quickly and opt for the dump off pass. Sometimes that's the right decision. Sometimes it can cost you a game. At least Losman has the potential upside to be gained from experience and learning from his mistakes.