Your Opinion of Marv change if?

[patmoran2006]

Since everybody on this board is Pro-Levy (to the best of my knowledge anyway), I have a question that I am very interested in hearing an objective and unbiased response too.

Hypothetically, what if the NFL draft next Saturday goes this way.. And dont tell me it can't go that way, because it VERY well can.
1- Houston- Reggie Bush
2- NO- Mario Williams
3- Tenn- Matt Leinart
4- NYJ- Brick
5- GB- AJ Hawk
6- SF- Vernon Davis
7- Oak- M. Huff (they like him alot)


IF that happens.. And with the 8th pick.. The Buffalo Bills select.. VINCE YOUNG.

1) What is your reaction going to be?
and
2) Are you still going to trust and believe in Marv Levy?


I want answers to the two questions.. NOt 100 reasons WHY it will never happen.. DOnt FOOL yourself into thinking it CANT Happen.. Marv owes JP 0%, he didnt draft him. Kelly Holcomb is FAR from expandable.. CRaig Nall signing doesnt affect Marv's big picture.

I am NOT SAYING Marv will draft Vince young.. I am saying it COULD happen.. Anyone who knows Marv knows how he feels about his leader of his football team being the Quarterback..

What is your opinion of Marv IF he selects Vince Young?

[Drive 4 Five]

IN MARV WE TRUST.

Still. I don't care what you say, it ain't happening.

[Drive 4 Five]

What I want to know, Pat, is when the Bills don't draft a QB, what YOUR reaction is going to be?

[OpIv37]

What is your opinion of Marv IF he selects Vince Young?


IMO this would be proof that Marv is not ready to be an NFL GM. He has done NOTHING in FA and seems intent on building through the draft (which is probably a good move0. Picking VY is NOT doing that- it's gambling on a QB who might be ready to help this team in two years rather than using a great pick to fill obvious OL and DL holes.

And no QB is going to be good for this team until we get a friggin OL. Getting yet another unproven QB with no OL to protect them while they learn is just beyond stupid.

If Marv picks anyone who cannot come in and contribute right away with the #8 pick, it's a true waste. One of the few consolations to having a miserable season is having a good draft pick. I can't stomach another first round pick that's gonna suck up millions of cap space and ride the pine for a year or two (think McGahee and Losman).

[Dr. Lecter]

I think most people here are willing to give Marv a chance. Is that Pro-Marv or merely being fair?

Regardless, I am not going to dump on the guy until I see what the team's record is. Anybody who wants to say he sucks before the Bills play game under his watch is foolish.

[Pinkerton Security]

Its gonna be tough to trust Marv is he does pick VY. As OP said, another unproven QB is only going to send us futher down the proverbial creek. We cannot afford to waste this golden opportunity to get an instant impact player, even though vince may one day be an all-pro. If marv were to select him, I would call for some medical tests to be done on him while i'm in the hospital from the heart attack i suffered.

[ublinkwescore]

This will not happen - I know and comprehend that you didn't want to hear that, but fact is, I would bet my freedom for the rest of my life, that this WILL NOT happen.

[djjimkelly]

i may become a casual fan only then vince young will only ever be a side show and ill know we arent about winning we are about publicity

[Pinkerton Security]

i may become a casual fan only then vince young will only ever be a side show and ill know we arent about winning we are about publicity

great point. he def would be a flashy pick. for that reason i feel like Al Davis may want him. if he doesnt and we pick him, i def. also think its about the publicity.

[Spiderweb]

Since everybody on this board is Pro-Levy (to the best of my knowledge anyway), I have a question that I am very interested in hearing an objective and unbiased response too.................... And with the 8th pick.. The Buffalo Bills select.. VINCE YOUNG.

1) What is your reaction going to be?
and
2) Are you still going to trust and believe in Marv Levy?..............What is your opinion of Marv IF he selects Vince Young?

That might be enough to save me the upcoming cost of the NFL Sunday ticket.

Young will never be a quality NFL QB, never. He's likely to be nothing but a poor man's Michael Vick.

[GvilleBills]

If Young were drafted, I would have less faith in GM Marv than I already do.

[patmoran2006]

What I want to know, Pat, is when the Bills don't draft a QB, what YOUR reaction is going to be?

I dont expect Marv to draft Young.

I HOPE he drafts Vernon Davis..
I EXPECT him to draft Michael Huff.
I SUSPECT we will trade down and draft Bunkley.

Would it shock me if he drafted Young? Given the INSECURITY at QB regardless who is the starting in week one.. Absolutely not it wouldn't shock me.

[Philagape]

First, I'm not pro-Marv. I'm entirely neutral right now and will judge him based on how the team does, an evaluation that may take years.

If we take Vince Young, I'll sigh and sulk in resignation knowing that our QB controversy will get 10 times worse and we'll be set back 2 years at the position; at least one major need will go unaddressed; and whatever hope of being respectable this season will be lost (I'm not convinced we're doomed in any case; if we score in the draft and upgrade the lines, we have a chance.)
I'll also fear that we've drafted the QB who, IMO, has the highest bust risk among the big 3 QBs.

[patmoran2006]

First, I'm not pro-Marv. I'm entirely neutral right now and will judge him based on how the team does, an evaluation that may take years.

If we take Vince Young, I'll sigh and sulk in resignation knowing that our QB controversy will get 10 times worse and we'll be set back 2 years at the position; at least one major need will go unaddressed; and whatever hope of being respectable this season will be lost (I'm not convinced we're doomed in any case; if we score in the draft and upgrade the lines, we have a chance.)
I'll also fear that we've drafted the QB who, IMO, has the highest bust risk among the big 3 QBs.

IMO, Young has the highest chance of being a good QB of the three big names.. Then again, that's all hearsay until they all get on the field.

I disagree about the controversy.. WHat I see as of right now is lets say JP starts and the Bills start 0-2 and JP doesnt look good. Fans will waste LITTLE time calling for Holcomb.. Or will it be Nall? HOw long before JP should get another chance? Why did we sign Nall if he's not playing? Why is Holcomb out there when we already know what kind of QB he is?

Etc etc.. To me, that's the controversy just WAITING to happen.. I think the opposite of you on this particular topic.. We take Vince Young, there isn't a SHADOW of doubt in a single person's mind in that locker room who the leader and the starter is, whether we win one game in 2006 or 16 games... You cant say the same for any of the current QB's. Maybe when it comes to our first draft pick this year, I think beyond just 2006.. Personally, I think we're going to suck record-wise in 06 no matter how good our draft is this year. THe key to being better in the FUTURE hinges on this draft.. I think we're too lacking of talent to be a real contender in 2006 and that wont change IMO whether its Huff, Davis, Young, Bush, whomever.. The future however, is a different story.

Does DRafting Young mean that Levy has given up on JP? Absolutely it does.. At the same token, he owes NOTHING TO JP.. He had nothing to do with him being here. DO I think its fair? Not necessarily. He probably does deserve a fair shake.. But it is POSSIBLE (nobody here knows) if Marv has seen enough of JP to know he's seen enough (if you know what Im saying)..

None of us know that.. And if you buy into Marv as the GM, then you should understand IF he takes young its because he wants his QB to be the undisputed leader of his football team.

[patmoran2006]

And lasty, anyone who just assumes that Young will be a bust and use past bums like Leaf, Smith, Couch etc as your ONLY evidence, doesnt know **** about football.

Go back and watch the Vince YOung films from Texas and I'd love for somebody to tell me WHY he has bust written all over him.

And if you do nothing more besides throw out past names, I'll do the same and use your logic to cite while Brick, Bush, Mario Williams and every other player in this draft will be a bust as well.

[Mr. Pink]

And lasty, anyone who just assumes that Young will be a bust and use past bums like Leaf, Smith, Couch etc as your ONLY evidence, doesnt know **** about football.

Go back and watch the Vince YOung films from Texas and I'd love for somebody to tell me WHY he has bust written all over him.

And if you do nothing more besides throw out past names, I'll do the same and use your logic to cite while Brick, Bush, Mario Williams and every other player in this draft will be a bust as well.


The best comparison that you can draw with Vince Young to an NFL QB is Daunte Culpepper. They play similiar styles, have awkward mechanics, and are both absolutely huge etc....
Daunte has done pretty well during his NFL career besides last year.

[Devin]

I would be dissapointed, but since Marv knows more about Football then anyone here, I would assume he made the choice for a reason.

Simple as that.

[patmoran2006]

I agree.. YOung plays a HECK of a lot more like a Culpepper than a Michael Vick, which is what 90% of the people are radically unjustly comparing him too. As a matter of fact except for being Black and fast, he's NOTHING like Vick.

He's a lot bigger and taller than Vick. Vick has a cannon arm with little accuracy while Young is much more accurate but with less of a "rocket" arm. Vick also forces too many plays while Young is a TRILLION times more patient.

If anyone actually has the ability to read a good article NON-objectively about Young.. This is a GREAT column.
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/5395466

[Philagape]

We take Vince Young, there isn't a SHADOW of doubt in a single person's mind in that locker room who the leader and the starter is, whether we win one game in 2006 or 16 games...

I have doubts about there being no doubt. Young has to earn his place as a leader, like every other QB. I think that will take a long time, if ever.
The pattern when it comes to bust QBs is they didn't get the pro game mentally. They could have all the physical tools in the world and/or college success, but in the NFL they start from scratch, and many are just too overwhelmed. From everything I've read about Young, he could be very prone to this weakness. I'm not talking about book smarts; I mean reading defenses. He will have a huge learning curve and won't be an effective starter for at least a season and maybe two of field experience, if at all. I'm not assuming he'll be a bust, but he'll have to prove my skepticism wrong.

[patmoran2006]

I have doubts about there being no doubt. Young has to earn his place as a leader, like every other QB. I think that will take a long time, if ever.
The pattern when it comes to bust QBs is they didn't get the pro game mentally. They could have all the physical tools in the world and/or college success, but in the NFL they start from scratch, and many are just too overwhelmed. From everything I've read about Young, he could be very prone to this weakness. I'm not talking about book smarts; I mean reading defenses. He will have a huge learning curve and won't be an effective starter for at least a season and maybe two of field experience, if at all. I'm not assuming he'll be a bust, but he'll have to prove my skepticism wrong.
Fair enough.. Very fair

Nobody knows for sure about any player til they actually play.. I just feel a lot better about a guy that pissed all over a top ranked team in the sports biggest stage, and did the same to OSU earlier that year (a team that includes as many as FOUR First-rounders on defense this year: Hawk, Carpenter, Youboty and Whitner) not to mention what he did to a great Michigan team in the 2005 Rose Bowl.

I understand that being great in college doesnt mean you'll be a great pro, especially at QB. There's just something about him that makes me think he'll be special.

There's a 95% chance its a moot point anyway as I'd be more shocked if he was on the board at 8 than you guys would be if we drafted him there.

[Bert102176]

I would welcome him with the Bills, but I just don't see them drafting a QB in the 1st round actual in the 1st 4 rounds if at all

[LifetimeBillsFan]

OK, Pat, I'll play along.....since I'm probably one of the most "pro-Levy" guys on this board.

First let me answer your two questions:

1.) IF Marv selects Vince Young with the # 8 pick and does not subsequently trade him for players or later draft picks--and that is IMHO a HUGE IF--I would be shocked. I will explain my reasons for this below.

2.) After questioning Marv's sanity for several hours, I would begin to question if there isn't something going on behind the scenes at One Bills Drive that we fans have not been privy to that prompted the team to select Young. I would try to find out as much as I possibly could about why Marv, contrary to everything that he has written, chose to take that gamble. Then, depending on what I could learn about that, I may or may not become concerned about Marv's trustworthiness and motives and the state of the team.

But I do NOT believe that that will happen because:

In his book, Marv outlines his view of how a team is successfully built and discusses his experiences in Kansas City--where the GM thought that the solution to the team's problems was to draft a QB in the first round--in detail. In that discussion, Marv states that it is his opinion that there is more to building a team than just bringing in a young, talented QB and expresses a very low opinion of what a young, inexperienced QB is able to accomplish at the beginning of his career. Marv explains in detail how, when he arrived in KC, he felt that the team would be better off going with a less talented, experienced QB like Mike Livingston rather than drafting a QB in the first round and how, in fact, the team got three good defensive players in his first draft there. Marv also discussed the "musical chairs" situation that he had with Livingston, first round pick Steve Fuller and the more productive, lower round pick Bill Kenney and the problems that he, as the coach, had with the expectations that were placed on Fuller because he was the team's first round pick. If you read what Marv wrote about the situation, it is very clear that he was not at all happy about that situation and, in particular, having the GM use his first round draft pick on a QB when the team obviously had many other needs.

In other sections of Marv's book, he discusses his attitude about the value of young, lesser known player who have a couple of years of experience and are about to blossom--Diron Talbert and Steve Tasker being two of the most prominent that he talks about--to the building of a winning football team. This is important to the discussion of whether Marv would draft Vince Young with the # 8 pick in this draft because, since taking over as the Bills' GM, the moves that Marv has made thus far in free agency are all consistent with the philosophy that he expressed in his book with regard to these players. All of the players that the Bills have signed thus far, with the possible exception of P.Price and L.Tripplett, fit the Talbert/Tasker type mold.

What that says to me is that Levy is applying as the Bills' GM the philosophy that he expressed in his book. If he is consistent in doing so in the draft, as he has been thus far in free agency, there is simply NO WAY that he will draft Vince Young with the # 8 pick in this draft. Why? Because not only would it be antithetical to his philosophy, but it would not help the Bills any more than drafting Fuller helped the Chiefs when Levy was coaching there and would run counter to the statements that Marv has made about the pressure that he feels that JP Losman was under because he was a first round draft pick. If Marv felt that it was wrong for KC to draft Fuller and is being honest in his comments about JP being under too much scrutiny because of his status as a first round draft pick, why on Earth would Marv create a similar or even worse situation by drafting Young? Marv may be old, but I do not believe that he is stupid and, unless there is something going on behind the scenes that we don't know about, that move would make Marv look very stupid, which is not something that I believe he would undertake lightly.

If the first round of the draft plays out according to the scenario that you have painted, I believe that Marv will do his utmost to trade down with a team that is interested in drafting Vince Young--so long as he does not have to trade down too far in order to do so. I could envision some scenarios where the Bills would draft Young with their pick and trade him, but I seriously doubt that Marv would draft Young with the intention of keeping him. I believe that Marv and Dick Jauron would rather see what they can get out of Losman, Nall and Holcomb--playing "musical chairs" with the three of them--than draft a QB in the first round of this draft (if they really hate what they have seen of those three QBs, I could see them drafting a QB later on the first day, but not with their first pick).

So, in that sense, I believe that it is a moot point. Yes, it is possible that Young will still be on the board when the Bills pick. But, no, I don't believe that Marv will take him to be the Bills' QB. If he does, then there must be a reason big enough to cause Marv to go against everything that he has said on the subject of a rebuilding team using a first round draft pick on a QB.

[DraftBoy]

We take Young #1, my reaction will be wait and see, and by that I mean, I want to wait and see who the next 3 picks are after him. If we get Vince Young, Andrew Whitworth, Charles Spencer, and Pat Watkins, I dont think Im going to see anybody here complaining. IF we take Young but yet make a strong commitment to two early picks for OL. I will be happy bc I think it solves the QB controversy and we are going to give a QB an OL for the first time since Jimbo. Just my personal preference. Im am 100% NOT against drafting Vince Young. And Im certainly not going to say it wont happen like many have said before me.

[justasportsfan]

Regardless of who Marv drafts, you judge him by what goes on the field. TD took players like Milloy, Drew, Fletcher , Spikes, Adams, etc. and some called him a god for doing so. None of those hires resulted in success on the field. It's all about the wins and not the players.

[jmb1099]

Marv has forgotten more about football than most of us will ever know. If he chooses Young than I will assume he knows what he's doing until proven otherwise, which Justa has already pointed out, happenes on the field.

[Philagape]

If Vince Young can help us stop the run, I'll be fine with it. :D

[DraftBoy]

If Vince Young can help us stop the run, I'll be fine with it. :D


Indirectly, bc he'll keep drives alive longer and keep their D on the field and their O off of it. I know a reach but Im tired of hearing so much whining about the D, at 8 you take the BPA who fills a need. Its Huff no question, but if we take Young, Davis, or Bunkley Ill be happy.

[Philagape]

Indirectly, bc he'll keep drives alive longer and keep their D on the field and their O off of it.

Maybe two years from now, if ever. Until then, he'd more often get our D on the field faster by throwing INTs.

[Jaybird]

Im gonna play this situation on the other side, if young is on he board and we dont draft im or trade with someone that wants him thjen i see a problem. How can you pass on a guy with that much talent. I know its the pro game but what he did in college was not normal(btw i am a JP fan).

[evol4276]

i'm sure one way or another I'll end up rolling my eyes at that pick.. but Marv's a smart guy and he knows what he's doing apparently, so I still can't not trust him

[Throne Logic]

Since everybody on this board is Pro-Levy (to the best of my knowledge anyway), I have a question that I am very interested in hearing an objective and unbiased response too.

Hypothetically, what if the NFL draft next Saturday goes this way.. And dont tell me it can't go that way, because it VERY well can.
1- Houston- Reggie Bush
2- NO- Mario Williams
3- Tenn- Matt Leinart
4- NYJ- Brick
5- GB- AJ Hawk
6- SF- Vernon Davis
7- Oak- M. Huff (they like him alot)


IF that happens.. And with the 8th pick.. The Buffalo Bills select.. VINCE YOUNG.

1) What is your reaction going to be?
and
2) Are you still going to trust and believe in Marv Levy?


I want answers to the two questions.. NOt 100 reasons WHY it will never happen.. DOnt FOOL yourself into thinking it CANT Happen.. Marv owes JP 0%, he didnt draft him. Kelly Holcomb is FAR from expandable.. CRaig Nall signing doesnt affect Marv's big picture.

I am NOT SAYING Marv will draft Vince young.. I am saying it COULD happen.. Anyone who knows Marv knows how he feels about his leader of his football team being the Quarterback..

What is your opinion of Marv IF he selects Vince Young?

First off, I don't have an opinion of Marv as GM yet. How could I? He will have his fair amount of time to determine if the moves he's making are going to pan out. So far, I'm leaning toward the positive side based completely on how he handles himself in press conferences. He's very diplomatic.

Now, if we draft Young, I'd certainly be unhappy about the pick. But I'm here in my kitchen typing away while Marv and company are researching and studying and rehashing all sorts of facts and details that we fans will never see. I will take the same approach to judging Marv. Wait and see how it pans out.

[YardRat]

1. I'll be pissed. Royally.

2. I've been wrong before about Marv and personnel decisions, so I'll just hope this is another similar case and root like hell for Young to become the player Marv thinks he can be.

3. Overall, it doesn't matter. I'll still have to go back to work Monday morning.



Go back and watch the Vince YOung films from Texas and I'd love for somebody to tell me WHY he has bust written all over him.


He has poor mechanics, he played with a remedial passing offense at Texas, and he's dumber than a stump.

[Michael82]

:ill:

[Jan Reimers]

Unless I have really misjudged both his basic intelligence and football knowledge, Marv will take neither Vince Young nor Vernon Davis. We desperately need O linemen, DTs and at least one Safety, and he will act accordingly.

Marv will take one of the following: Huff, Ngata, Bunkley, or Justice.

[LtBillsFan66]

I love Marv and always will.

I'm going to judge his performance on how the team does in the next few years. I'm not going to speculate.

[Jauron733]

I am a JP believer.

That being said I would absolutely love it. You could not pass up the shot at drafting a guy like Young. He could be an absolute superstar at the most important position on the field and he's a winner. If the situation unfolds like that, the rest of the first day should go to the lines though.

[dplus47]

first, let me say that i like vince young and i think he will be a good pro. people are saying he could be a bust because:

1. "uncle rico" throwing motion. probably will have to be corrected. he's not getting the most behind his throws with that motion, and you must have all the zip you can muster in the NFL.

2. gimmick college offense. not a pro-style offense at all: he didn't have to go through a lot of reads; he was always in the shotgun (ala alex smith, for example). these things (reading defenses, reading defenses while dropping back) will take time to learn.

3. he was a run-first QB in college. in that respect, he's not like culpepper, who is a dropback passer first and a runner second.

i think he'll overcome these things, if only because of the great will to win he displayed at texas. it's just going to take time, and there are risks involved. i think he has the highest possible ceiling of the 3 top QB's, but he's also the least ready for the NFL game, IMO.

[patmoran2006]

first, let me say that i like vince young and i think he will be a good pro. people are saying he could be a bust because:

1. "uncle rico" throwing motion. probably will have to be corrected. he's not getting the most behind his throws with that motion, and you must have all the zip you can muster in the NFL.

2. gimmick college offense. not a pro-style offense at all: he didn't have to go through a lot of reads; he was always in the shotgun (ala alex smith, for example). these things (reading defenses, reading defenses while dropping back) will take time to learn.

3. he was a run-first QB in college. in that respect, he's not like culpepper, who is a dropback passer first and a runner second.

i think he'll overcome these things, if only because of the great will to win he displayed at texas. it's just going to take time, and there are risks involved. i think he has the highest possible ceiling of the 3 top QB's, but he's also the least ready for the NFL game, IMO.
Hard to argue a lot of those points..

[G. Host]

What is your opinion of Marv IF he selects Vince Young?

Not every one on the board is pro-Marv, just most of the intellegent ones and some of the non-intellegent ones. If Marv and front office think Young is the guy then I am assuming that
1. They have a market for one of the other QBs or are able to sign and trade Young
2. They know what they are doing and are convinced he will have as much as an effect on Bills as Jim Kelly did.

Of course I could be a flip-flopping waffle and say I no longer trust Marv but that is not in my nature.

[X-Era]

Since everybody on this board is Pro-Levy (to the best of my knowledge anyway), I have a question that I am very interested in hearing an objective and unbiased response too.

Hypothetically, what if the NFL draft next Saturday goes this way.. And dont tell me it can't go that way, because it VERY well can.
1- Houston- Reggie Bush
2- NO- Mario Williams
3- Tenn- Matt Leinart
4- NYJ- Brick
5- GB- AJ Hawk
6- SF- Vernon Davis
7- Oak- M. Huff (they like him alot)


IF that happens.. And with the 8th pick.. The Buffalo Bills select.. VINCE YOUNG.

1) What is your reaction going to be?
and
2) Are you still going to trust and believe in Marv Levy?


I want answers to the two questions.. NOt 100 reasons WHY it will never happen.. DOnt FOOL yourself into thinking it CANT Happen.. Marv owes JP 0%, he didnt draft him. Kelly Holcomb is FAR from expandable.. CRaig Nall signing doesnt affect Marv's big picture.

I am NOT SAYING Marv will draft Vince young.. I am saying it COULD happen.. Anyone who knows Marv knows how he feels about his leader of his football team being the Quarterback..

What is your opinion of Marv IF he selects Vince Young?

I would applaud him!

Its a crapshoot anyways for ANY of these players to pan out.

We could use a impact player at just about every position.

If Levy thinks Young can be special and he turns out to be, great.

I, for one, do WAY to much thinking about the draft. But it occured to me the other day....Does anyone remember Philly fans BOOING McNabb? They booed him because they wanted Ricky Williams.

If THAT doesnt make the point that its TRULY a crapshoot and we shouldnt care so much, I dont know what does.

[X-Era]

first, let me say that i like vince young and i think he will be a good pro. people are saying he could be a bust because:

1. "uncle rico" throwing motion. probably will have to be corrected. he's not getting the most behind his throws with that motion, and you must have all the zip you can muster in the NFL.

2. gimmick college offense. not a pro-style offense at all: he didn't have to go through a lot of reads; he was always in the shotgun (ala alex smith, for example). these things (reading defenses, reading defenses while dropping back) will take time to learn.

3. he was a run-first QB in college. in that respect, he's not like culpepper, who is a dropback passer first and a runner second.

i think he'll overcome these things, if only because of the great will to win he displayed at texas. it's just going to take time, and there are risks involved. i think he has the highest possible ceiling of the 3 top QB's, but he's also the least ready for the NFL game, IMO.

Cant argue those points. To me he looks a helluva lot like McNair. I agree the throwing motion sucks.

But you just never know. He could become great.

[PromoTheRobot]

What I want to know, Pat, is when the Bills don't draft a QB, what YOUR reaction is going to be?
Besides having a tantrum and writing a scathing article on the incompetance of the Bills management?

PTR