What is Clements worth

[Barrett]

I have a real hard time figuring out trade value of players, for example I while I understand that Abraham is more valuable than Moulds, the difference in their value doesn't strike me as first rounder vs. basically meaningless. That being said, the general sentiment seems to be that Clements would be worth a late first rounder. If that is the case, I think we have enough ammo with our 11 picks to trade up into the middle, maybe our late first rounder and a 3rd and fifth for a mid-first. If this is the case, I say "bye bye Nate!" That would make our draft incredible, giving us 2 impact players and probably 3 maybe 4 new starters. Obviously this is all hypothetical, but if Marv could pull this off, then I say definetely go for Davis, he's an unbelievable talent and would immediately make life as a Bills fan alot easier and more fun, and then still take Justice or Bunkley or Ngata in the mid first round, and more linemen in the second and thirds. I realize that I'm just rambling, but everyone else is doing their mock drafts, and this would be my fantasy draft. Trade Clements, draft Davis and Bunkley/Justice in the first round, then fill more line and safety/cornerback issues in later rounds. This would be absolutely incredible! In Marv we trust.

[OpIv37]

I don't know what Clements is worth, but it's not nearly as much as he thinks he is, and that's a big sticking point for a trade.

Plus, as much as I agree that Clements is asking for too much, he is an above average corner and if he goes it will be another whole to fill (of course, with 2 first rounders and 11 overall picks, I don't know why that would be a problem).

[Kenny]

here's the thing though...

If you're a team looking for a CB in the first round (and Huff is gone of course), wouldnt you be willing to give up a first rounder? Even Cromartie (probably the #1 ranked CB) is a big question mark with past injuries and lack of starts.

Seattle, Pitts, NYG, Cinci, NE, KC, & SD all have late first rounders, and all of them (IMO) have CB as a major need.

Hypothetical Situation....

We trade Nate for a late first rounder pick #20-30?
How does our draft look like?

Do we draft Huff with #8, and then trade our late first and one of our 3rds or maybe our 2nd to move back down in the first to try and get Bunkley or Ngata?

Or Huff @ #8, and then take the best OT available later in the first?

Or take Bunkley @#8, and then the best defensive back later in the first (Hill, Cromartie, etc...) or take the best OT available and then the best CB available in the 2nd? etc....

Regardless, unless Clements decides to really play this year, and join minicamp, etc... I think our best option is to trade him if there's a willing team.

[eeyyeeddoogg]

The only problem with trading Clements is how much cash he will want from the new team. You don't think a team like Pitt or N. Eng. wouldn't give up their 1st rd. pick for him. The problem is both those teams are tight with the salary buck. Either way I'm for keeping him and signing him to a long term contract.

[Kenny]

To be honest, I think Clements is going to be like Moulds. Either we overpay for him, or he wants to walk and go to another team that he believes can contend.

I cant honestly believe, that after the season he had last year, he actually still thinks he's the best CB in the league.

[OpIv37]

I cant honestly believe, that after the season he had last year, he actually still thinks he's the best CB in the league.


that's what pisses me off about the situation. I wouldn't mind keeping him, but he wants to get paid the same as guys that are way better than him.

It's not worth it.

[eeyyeeddoogg]

He young, makes plays, and is a big corner, with his best years coming, he will get paid. I hope it's by the Bills.

[OpIv37]

He young, makes plays, and is a big corner, with his best years coming, he will get paid. I hope it's by the Bills.

his worst year was his most recent so I don't see why so many people are convinced that his best years are ahead of him.

He makes big plays when they get him on Sportscenter. Remember the 04 Jax game when he went for the INT on 4th down instead of knocking the ball away? he does that, and we're 10-6 and in the playoffs.

The reason he got toasted by Chris Chambers was because he didn't want to give up the big play so he played too far off of him- he plays to make himself look good and not help the team. If he played to help the team, he'd be worth what he thinks he's worth.

[eeyyeeddoogg]

What happens when you get rid of him ? McGee becomes the one ? Please. If they let him walk they better be drafting two corners and then hope they can play at an NFL level.
Lets face the facts, part of the reason he had a down year was because the whole defense sucked with no pass rush. And of course he got beat sometimes, tell me a corner that doesn't. Everyone say's Bailey is the best and I've seen him lit up plenty of times.

[Pinkerton Security]

If you're a team looking for a CB in the first round (and Huff is gone of course), wouldnt you be willing to give up a first rounder? Even Cromartie (probably the #1 ranked CB) is a big question mark with past injuries and lack of starts.

.

If we could get a late first rounder for clements, i would definitely explore the possibilities. however, i'd be very surprised if his value was that high. as everyone has mentioned, his performances over the past year or 2 are subpar. other teams DO know that, and nowadays, teams are very unwilling to give up first rounders. look at what the vikes got for culpepper....a late 2nd rounder. Im not saying that culpepper is good, im just saying clements is not that much more valuable, maybe even less. if you were a team drafting late, would you rather have a guy like Johnathan Joseph or Cromartie (or Jimmy Williams if hes there), or a guy like clements, who has disappointed as of late. i would love a first rounder for him, but i dont see it happening.

[LifetimeBillsFan]

What happens when you get rid of him ? McGee becomes the one ? Please. If they let him walk they better be drafting two corners and then hope they can play at an NFL level.
Lets face the facts, part of the reason he had a down year was because the whole defense sucked with no pass rush. And of course he got beat sometimes, tell me a corner that doesn't. Everyone say's Bailey is the best and I've seen him lit up plenty of times.

If you trade Clements for a late-first round draft pick--if you could get that much for him--you'd better use that pick on a CB to replace him because there's no one on the roster or available in free agency that can replace him. And, how good of a CB are you going to be able to get late in the first round of this draft to replace him? And how soon will that guy be ready to play even average ball? At least a year.

Look at the CBs that were drafted last year: as bad as Clements played at times, how many of them played even up to that level? One of the two CBs that Oakland drafted was OK, the other stunk. Justin Miller was a good return man for the Jets, but didn't play much until the last half of the season and got toasted. The kid from LSU that everyone wanted the Bills to draft who played for the Giants couldn't even beat out Curtis DeLoatch and was horrible most of the season. The reality is that most CBs, even the ones who turn out to be pretty good, struggle their first year or two. So, you can't expect a CB that you draft to step in and become a # 1 shutdown CB or even a proficient starting Cover 2 CB as a rookie.

That means that McGee would be the Bills' # 1 CB and, if they are lucky, the rookie would be their # 2 CB and get picked on all season long. If the kid were to struggle, Eric King would be their other starter--in which case, things could get really ugly.... As bad as Clements played at times last season, he would still be able to do better than that. Compared to a lot of CBs in the league, Clements is not as bad as some people think: all CBs, even the best, get toasted at times and have bad seasons--Clements had a bad season last year and tends to play for himself more than the team, but has shown that, over the course of a season, he is capable of having more good games than bad and, right now, the Bills don't have a CB other than McGee that you can honestly say that about.

Now, is Clements worth the money that he wants? Probably not. Do I like his attitude? No. But, I would argue that this is not the time to let Clements go. This is supposed to be a deep draft at CB, with a lot of speedy CBs available. If it appears that some accomodation with Clements can't be reached, draft a CB in Round 3 or 4 (when McGee was drafted--when the raw, but talented Danieal Manning is projected to be drafted) and let him understudy for a year behind Clements, working his way into the lineup as the nickleback, so that he is ready to step in as a quality starter next season.

[alohabillsfan]

We are rebuilding for the future not the next season I would rather trade him and start a rook this season than to let Nate walk and draft a CB to start 2007. may as well do it now!

[X-Era]

I have a real hard time figuring out trade value of players, for example I while I understand that Abraham is more valuable than Moulds, the difference in their value doesn't strike me as first rounder vs. basically meaningless. That being said, the general sentiment seems to be that Clements would be worth a late first rounder. If that is the case, I think we have enough ammo with our 11 picks to trade up into the middle, maybe our late first rounder and a 3rd and fifth for a mid-first. If this is the case, I say "bye bye Nate!" That would make our draft incredible, giving us 2 impact players and probably 3 maybe 4 new starters. Obviously this is all hypothetical, but if Marv could pull this off, then I say definetely go for Davis, he's an unbelievable talent and would immediately make life as a Bills fan alot easier and more fun, and then still take Justice or Bunkley or Ngata in the mid first round, and more linemen in the second and thirds. I realize that I'm just rambling, but everyone else is doing their mock drafts, and this would be my fantasy draft. Trade Clements, draft Davis and Bunkley/Justice in the first round, then fill more line and safety/cornerback issues in later rounds. This would be absolutely incredible! In Marv we trust.

Dumb question, is it possible to trade a franchised but unsigned player without the new team first signing him?

It would seem that they can trade him, but then why all the crap about signing the traded player and THEN working out trade details like Moulds, Henry

[OpIv37]

What happens when you get rid of him ? McGee becomes the one ? Please. If they let him walk they better be drafting two corners and then hope they can play at an NFL level.
Lets face the facts, part of the reason he had a down year was because the whole defense sucked with no pass rush. And of course he got beat sometimes, tell me a corner that doesn't. Everyone say's Bailey is the best and I've seen him lit up plenty of times.


he got beat LOTS of times in 05- he was terrible.

And the "whole defense sucked" argument doesn't hold water. In 03 and 04 when Clements was "playing" well, we had a great pass rush and really good linebacker play. How do you know Clements isn't really that good and was just benefitting from the rest of his job being easier?

The fact that we currently don't have another corner does not make Clements worth $7 million.

If you go to a car dealer with $50,000 to buy a Mercedes, but all they have left are Corollas and they're selling them for the same price, do you pay $50k for the Corolla? I don't think so

[Kenny]

If you trade Clements for a late-first round draft pick--if you could get that much for him--you'd better use that pick on a CB to replace him because there's no one on the roster or available in free agency that can replace him. And, how good of a CB are you going to be able to get late in the first round of this draft to replace him? And how soon will that guy be ready to play even average ball? At least a year.

Look at the CBs that were drafted last year: as bad as Clements played at times, how many of them played even up to that level? One of the two CBs that Oakland drafted was OK, the other stunk. Justin Miller was a good return man for the Jets, but didn't play much until the last half of the season and got toasted. The kid from LSU that everyone wanted the Bills to draft who played for the Giants couldn't even beat out Curtis DeLoatch and was horrible most of the season. The reality is that most CBs, even the ones who turn out to be pretty good, struggle their first year or two. So, you can't expect a CB that you draft to step in and become a # 1 shutdown CB or even a proficient starting Cover 2 CB as a rookie.

That means that McGee would be the Bills' # 1 CB and, if they are lucky, the rookie would be their # 2 CB and get picked on all season long. If the kid were to struggle, Eric King would be their other starter--in which case, things could get really ugly.... As bad as Clements played at times last season, he would still be able to do better than that. Compared to a lot of CBs in the league, Clements is not as bad as some people think: all CBs, even the best, get toasted at times and have bad seasons--Clements had a bad season last year and tends to play for himself more than the team, but has shown that, over the course of a season, he is capable of having more good games than bad and, right now, the Bills don't have a CB other than McGee that you can honestly say that about.

Now, is Clements worth the money that he wants? Probably not. Do I like his attitude? No. But, I would argue that this is not the time to let Clements go. This is supposed to be a deep draft at CB, with a lot of speedy CBs available. If it appears that some accomodation with Clements can't be reached, draft a CB in Round 3 or 4 (when McGee was drafted--when the raw, but talented Danieal Manning is projected to be drafted) and let him understudy for a year behind Clements, working his way into the lineup as the nickleback, so that he is ready to step in as a quality starter next season.

:bow:

Great points. I really do hope we resign Clements, because there is absolutely no one in this draft that will be able to replace him.
To be honest, I dont dont think there's been a corner taken in the past 2 maybe 3 drafts that I'd trade Clements for.

[OpIv37]

So all you guys are in favor of having cap problems over a guy who doesn't play up to his value?

This is called the Washington Redskins model. It doesn't work.

[eyedog]

Last I knew this team has plenty of cap room. You use your cap to sign your young pro bowl players, especially when they play an important position.
And if you need some more cap then you can get rid of Bennie, Vincent, and Posey this summer also.

[OpIv37]

Last I knew this team has plenty of cap room. You use your cap to sign your young pro bowl players, especially when they play an important position.
And if you need some more cap then you can get rid of Bennie, Vincent, and Posey this summer also.
we have cap room, but we need to sign the #8 overall pick, McGahee's contract will be out soon and his dirtbag agent is going to jack us.... I don't know the contract situation regarding Evans and Losman but I would imagine they'll be up for renewal sometime soon.

Marv seems intent on building through the draft but this team has too many holes.... eventually we're going to need to grab an FA or two. Tying up too much money in a player like Clements is just stupid. I'm not against keeping him because I think he's above average, but he's not elite and we shouldn't pay him as elite.

[justasportsfan]

we have cap room, but we need to sign the #8 overall pick, McGahee's contract will be out soon and his dirtbag agent is going to jack us.... I don't know the contract situation regarding Evans and Losman but I would imagine they'll be up for renewal sometime soon.

Marv seems intent on building through the draft but this team has too many holes.... eventually we're going to need to grab an FA or two. Tying up too much money in a player like Clements is just stupid. I'm not against keeping him because I think he's above average, but he's not elite and we shouldn't pay him as elite.
If we play our cards right, Rosena$$ may not have any leverage. What I mean is, we fix the OL like the Broncos do, we may have a great running game with a less talented rb. The league right now is loaded with good rbs having to compete with great rbs. Guys like Travis Henry who did very well for us are now considered back-ups in this league.

I don't think keeping Clements for a year is gonna break the bank. Keep him and if a teams no.1 cb goes down to injury during camp, Clements' value may go up just like when we traded Henry for a 3rd. when Chris Brown went down at Titans camp.

[OpIv37]

If we play our cards right, Rosena$$ may not have any leverage. What I mean is, we fix the OL like the Broncos do, we may have a great running game with a less talented rb. The league right now is loaded with good rbs having to compete with great rbs. Guys like Travis Henry who did very well for us are now considered back-ups in this league.

I don't think keeping Clements for a year is gonna break the bank. Keep him and if a teams no.1 cb goes down to injury during camp, Clements' value may go up just like when we traded Henry for a 3rd. when Chris Brown went down at Titans camp.

one year for $7 million won't kill us- that's true. If he stays for a year and plays poorly again, we might be able to keep him for less money.

But what if he holds out? As far as I know, he hasn't signed the contract tender yet. I'd rather trade him than give him some Champ Bailey-type contract.

[justasportsfan]

one year for $7 million won't kill us- that's true. If he stays for a year and plays poorly again, we might be able to keep him for less money.

But what if he holds out? As far as I know, he hasn't signed the contract tender yet. I'd rather trade him than give him some Champ Bailey-type contract.We'll cross the bridge when we get there. Right now there isn't a market for a player like him. He knows no one will give him the money he wants. He and his agent can pretend or we'll do what we did with Moulds and that is to have Clements try to seek a trade. This time we let him know we're not gonna give him up for as much as we gave up for Moulds. He'll find out no one will give him Champ Bailey money.

[EDS]

I don't think Clements deserves anything close to Champ Bailey money but corner back is a tough position. Even the best get abused at times. Clements is one of the better corners in the league and would be very difficult to replace. There is no guarantee that a draft pick would ever play close to his level.

[justasportsfan]

I don't think Clements deserves anything close to Champ Bailey money but corner back is a tough position. Even the best get abused at times. Clements is one of the better corners in the league and would be very difficult to replace. There is no guarantee that a draft pick would ever play close to his level.
I agree. A rookie cb does not even guarantee he's gonna be any better than Eric King.