anyone think this is an endorsement for the OL we have?

[Tatonka]

Just wondering if the lack of oline picks is an endorsement for Reyes, Gibson, Giesinger, Preston, and McFarland?

maybe they feel like they have some good young players, so they didnt feel the need to force the picks?

[patmoran2006]

I dont think its an endorsement for the OL as much as I think that the defense was ranked 29th in the NFL last year, 31st versus the run and dead last in stopping teams in the Red Zone.

You can only work on so much during one draft.. Marv decided he can live with Gandy and Villarial for another year and made defense priority 1 (and 2, 3 and 4 so far)

[Jersey1031]

Marv decided he can live with Gandy and Villarial for another year and made defense priority 1 (and 2, 3 and 4 so far)

And maybe pick 5 if Wright is still there...

[OpIv37]

Reyes and Fowler will improve the OL somewhat.

Gibson is a shot in the dark. I could see him being a complete bust, I could also see him being a contributor (maybe only for depth). I just don't know with him.

Geisinger has done nothing and Preston looked below average last year, so I don't know what the staff sees in them to make them so confident.

I think the line looks a little better than last year, but it still scares me because our line was supposed to be fine last year too and it was anything but.

[LifetimeBillsFan]

I dont think its an endorsement for the OL as much as I think that the defense was ranked 29th in the NFL last year, 31st versus the run and dead last in stopping teams in the Red Zone.

You can only work on so much during one draft.. Marv decided he can live with Gandy and Villarial for another year and made defense priority 1 (and 2, 3 and 4 so far)

Once again, I think you are right on this Pat. I also think that, being "Old School", Marv chose to go with defense because of the old adage that "defense wins championships". Marv knows that a good defense will keep a bad offense in games, a bad defense can lose games for a good offense.

With the way that some of the offensive linemen have been falling in this draft, there are still some offensive linemen that we would have been happy to see the Bills draft much higher a couple of days ago that we still might be able to draft in the remaining rounds.

OP, the thing about Gibson is that he has always been considered a "boom-or-bust" guy depending on his conditioning. If he is in shape--and that has always been a HUGE IF--he's a first round talent with experience and, supposedly, he is in the best shape of his life. If that is true and he can maintain that conditioning, the Bills have an average or better starting RT with OG experience as a back-up in Gibson. No question it is an "iffy" proposition, but, if the coaches like his conditioning, they may feel that they don't need another expendable guy to push him because they have that in McFarland.

I agree with you about Geissinger having done nothing so far, but, like McFarland, he was considered a "project" when he was drafted--it was going to take those two guys 2-3 years to give the team anything to begin with--and he has changed position from tackle in college to guard and now center. Even though he hasn't done anything, they may feel that he has shown enough progress that they think he may finally be ready to contribute. I think both Geissinger and McFarland are both "on the hot seat" and will have to show that they can play this year, but they weren't expected to do anything in the first place until this year. I think it is interesting, in Geissinger's case, that Preston was drafted as a center, but has been thrown into the LG mix and Geissinger is now the # 2 guy at center. There are two ways that you can interpret that and one of them is that Geissinger is looking like a better center prospect than Preston at this point.

[Drive 4 Five]

An endorsement or a theory of which unit was in worst shape? This team is o.k. at most of the offensive skill position, and while the offensive line is of great importance, obviously this regime felt as if the defense was in more critical need and based on the number of changes there, it is hard to disagree with the decision to get defensive so to speak.

[realdealryan]

Yeah, the OL is just the lesser of two evils.

[Drive 4 Five]

I dont think its an endorsement for the OL as much as I think that the defense was ranked 29th in the NFL last year, 31st versus the run and dead last in stopping teams in the Red Zone.

You can only work on so much during one draft.. Marv decided he can live with Gandy and Villarial for another year and made defense priority 1 (and 2, 3 and 4 so far)

I am guilty of not reading all the posts before posting. I agree with this 100%, expecially the thinking that that one can only do so much during one draft. Besides, we will have a slew of undrafted players to pick from and there will be more veterans cut in the enar future.

Our defense may be shaping out pretty nicely and we may actaully be preparing for more departure amongst this unit with the uncertainty of Clement's future and the aging Vincent who may be soon departed.

[ICE74129]

Marv decided he can live with Gandy and Villarial for another year and made defense priority 1 (and 2, 3 and 4 so far)

And it will bite us hard this year. When Willis can't run, and JP or Nall or Butthead have no time to pass...

But hey, Marv knows what he's doing right...

[LABillsFan]

Personally, I have never been a fan of starting or relying on a rookie OL man. Sure there is always 1 or 2 in each draft that are gems, but going against seasoned DL lineman with inexperience makes a long day for your offense. Even if a team drafts that special player there are 4 other players on the line that you can rely on. The Oline players on the Bills have a year under their belts. While not a dominant line they should be improved.

The D was sucking wind all year and could never get off the field. That side needed young fast players and now they have them.

[patmoran2006]

And it will bite us hard this year. When Willis can't run, and JP or Nall or Butthead have no time to pass...

But hey, Marv knows what he's doing right...
That may be true, but if we dont improve on a putrid defense, JP wont have to worry about throwing or willis about running.. Because they'll barely ever be in the field.

[ICE74129]

That may be true, but if we dont improve on a putrid defense, JP wont have to worry about throwing or willis about running.. Because they'll barely ever be in the field.
Well since we are going 100% Defense then there should be no excuses right? We kept those that fit the system, drafted those that fit the system. We should be a top 5 Defense this year.

In the mean time they will set JP's development back further by not addressing LT when they had a chance. So we go LT next year...and lose a full year of development. I figure at this rate the new owner and his new staff will be reaping the fruits of this offseason.

[Drive 4 Five]

Yeah, the OL is just the lesser of two evils.

Which means we are in for a long season huh? At least our defense should be solid again and I don't know about the rest of you but I absolutley love good defense.

[Drive 4 Five]

And it will bite us hard this year. When Willis can't run, and JP or Nall or Butthead have no time to pass...

But hey, Marv knows what he's doing right...

Ok and if he addressed the line with the GREAT Winston Justice and others as YOU had hoped, then when our defense is getting creamed all season you and others like you would then be complianing about how they didn't give enough attention to the defense.

[Cntrygal]

I don't know about the rest of you but I absolutley love good defense.

So do I.

[ICE74129]

Ok and if he addressed the line with the GREAT Winston Justice and others as YOU had hoped, then when our defense is getting creamed all season you and others like you would then be complianing about how they didn't give enough attention to the defense.

How do you figure? I said Bunkley in round 1 then Justice...you know like philly did. We could still address safety etc in later rounds. Come to find out our CB taken in round 3 and the top TRUE safety we took in 4 would have been there.

[ICE74129]

Which means we are in for a long season huh? At least our defense should be solid again and I don't know about the rest of you but I absolutley love good defense.

D4F....name for me how many times in the last 7 years we had a top defense. Now name for me how many times we made the playoffs.

Nuff said.

[Drive 4 Five]

Well since we are going 100% Defense then there should be no excuses right? We kept those that fit the system, drafted those that fit the system. We should be a top 5 Defense this year.

In the mean time they will set JP's development back further by not addressing LT when they had a chance. So we go LT next year...and lose a full year of development. I figure at this rate the new owner and his new staff will be reaping the fruits of this offseason.

Losman is an exceptional athlete and if he can get his head straight then we wouldn't be so reliant on a stalwart line in the first place. His development continues and we address the needs later. I completely disagree that even if our line sucks yet again that his development is hindered. What the hell does that have to do with how well Losman does or doesn't understand the offense and how to command it. Besides, we have alot of young linemen on our roster whose contributions remain to be seen.

[ICE74129]

Losman is an exceptional athlete and if he can get his head straight then we wouldn't be so reliant on a stalwart line in the first place. His development continues and we address the needs later. I completely disagree that even if our line sucks yet again that his development is hindered. What the hell does that have to do with how well Losman does or doesn't understand the offense and how to command it. Besides, we have alot of young linemen on our roster whose contributions remain to be seen.

Oh BS. Average QB + Good line = Great offense. Great QB + Crap line = Losses and an injured QB.

We added the weakest link on Carolinas OL and a Center. We still have crap for the most important position on the line and at RG

[Drive 4 Five]

How do you figure? I said Bunkley in round 1 then Justice...you know like philly did. We could still address safety etc in later rounds. Come to find out our CB taken in round 3 and the top TRUE safety we took in 4 would have been there.

Were you or were you not making a case to draft OT Winston justice with the first pick just two weeks ago? I know you later changed your mind and wanted Bunkley like the rest of us (it would have been the sexier pick which would have appeased the nation's draft experts) but we didn't. Instead we recognized that we are in even bigger need at the safety position and whether or not the rest of the football world agrees, we did something about it.

[ICE74129]

Were you or were you not making a case to draft OT Winston justice with the first pick just two weeks ago? I know you later changed your mind and wanted Bunkley like the rest of us (it would have been the sexier pick which would have appeased the nation's draft experts) but we didn't. Instead we recognized that we are in even bigger need at the safety position and whether or not the rest of the football world agrees, we did something about it.

The Football world agrees? Says who? All I have seen or read is how we screwed the pooch by NOT going with those two picks. Had moved 3 spots down we still get bunkley. We could have had justice at #8 in round 2 and a safety and CB in round 3.

There is no way around this, marv is willing to settle at LT with below average to maybe average talent all the time talking about how making the D better helps the QB. a good line is what helps your QB.

But whats done is done. We have worthless gandy protecting our QB's blindside.

BTW the football world said DT and LT were our biggest needs going into the draft, they were right

[Drive 4 Five]

Oh BS. Average QB + Good line = Great offense. Great QB + Crap line = Losses and an injured QB.

We added the weakest link on Carolinas OL and a Center. We still have crap for the most important position on the line and at RG

Alot of the line's potential also has to do with scheme ICE. How many times last year did we complain about the play calling? Despite an unstable line still struggling to find any continuity, and a young QB, there was Mike Mularkey slinging the ball all over the place. Passing when he should have ran, trying to be sexy with the stupid gadget plays, I can go on and on. Where were the max protect schemes to bring some stability? Where was the great defense we knew we would have to heavily rely upon? The truth of the matter is that we don't really know what exactly we have on offense. We do know we have some players with potential. We do know we have given alot of attention solely to that side of the ball in recent drafts and MAYBE some of those picks will pan out. Then again maybe not. We'll have to wait and see but what we can be absolutley certain of is that we have a defense that is in crtical condition and we're trying to do something about that.

[Drive 4 Five]

The Football world agrees? Says who? All I have seen or read is how we screwed the pooch by NOT going with those two picks. Had moved 3 spots down we still get bunkley. We could have had justice at #8 in round 2 and a safety and CB in round 3.

There is no way around this, marv is willing to settle at LT with below average to maybe average talent all the time talking about how making the D better helps the QB. a good line is what helps your QB.

But whats done is done. We have worthless gandy protecting our QB's blindside.

BTW the football world said DT and LT were our biggest needs going into the draft, they were right

Jesus man. I said that whether or not the football world agreed, I didn't say that they did. You're so worked up you can't even see straight. Calm down brother. Goodness.

[Cntrygal]

Everyone had better stay relaxed and on target. :tap:

[ICE74129]

Alot of the line's potential also has to do with scheme ICE. How many times last year did we complain about the play calling? Despite an unstable line still struggling to find any continuity, and a young QB, there was Mike Mularkey slinging the ball all over the place. Passing when he should have ran, trying to be sexy with the stupid gadget plays, I can go on and on. Where were the max protect schemes to bring some stability? Where was the great defense we knew we would have to heavily rely upon? The truth of the matter is that we don't really know what exactly we have on offense. We do know we have some players with potential. We do know we have given alot of attention solely to that side of the ball in recent drafts and MAYBE some of those picks will pan out. Then again maybe not. We'll have to wait and see but what we can be absolutley certain of is that we have a defense that is in crtical condition and we're trying to do something about that.

Ok to use your arguement, was it the talent on D or the system and the predictable coaching? Maybe Marv is reaching and putting too much into a percieved lack of talent?

Gray was predictable as hell the last 2 years. Teams knew what was coming, from where and who was coming with it. he misused the talent we had here.

Addressing both DT's is fine, but the OL talent has been crap since before he left and he flat ignored as big a need as DT....LEFT TACKLE. I want to know when old ralph will finally figure out we have sucked greatly there since we got screwed on the Wolford deal?

My point being, there were tackles in this draft that could have stepped in and performed well at LT. The Texans took a couple of them I believe. We could have had our pick pretty much from round 2 on.

[Cntrygal]

Jesus man. I said that whether or not the football world agreed, I didn't say that they did. You're so worked up you can't even see straight. Calm down brother. Goodness.

I went back and highlighted it for ya. :biggrin:

[ICE74129]

Jesus man. I said that whether or not the football world agreed, I didn't say that they did. You're so worked up you can't even see straight. Calm down brother. Goodness.

I have sat here and watched pure and absolute SH@! for an OL since 1993. I am sick of it. The talent was there and Marv leads us to believe it wasn't when it is known McNally followed Winston everywhere at the combine and we had other guys we checked out. There WAS the talent there and we passed again.

Marv had better hope his new talent and Fewell can keep teams to 10 points or less this year.

[Drive 4 Five]

Ok to use your arguement, was it the talent on D or the system and the predictable coaching? Maybe Marv is reaching and putting too much into a percieved lack of talent?

Gray was predictable as hell the last 2 years. Teams knew what was coming, from where and who was coming with it. he misused the talent we had here.

Addressing both DT's is fine, but the OL talent has been crap since before he left and he flat ignored as big a need as DT....LEFT TACKLE. I want to know when old ralph will finally figure out we have sucked greatly there since we got screwed on the Wolford deal?

My point being, there were tackles in this draft that could have stepped in and performed well at LT. The Texans took a couple of them I believe. We could have had our pick pretty much from round 2 on.

Man that is a tough tough question bro. I'm going to take the easy route and say that it was a combination of all those things. I agree with you about some of the players we passed up on but you have to understand that there is only so much we can do this year. Like I said, it is obviosu that the defense is in far worse condition based on the draft we have had so far, we just drafted an OT, and there will be plenty more options as the season progresses.

I will say this bro. Our defense had damn well better be in the top 15 of all defensive categories.

[TedMock]

Left tackle is absolutely NOT our biggest need. People who don't watch the Bills see that we gave up a bunch of sacks, etc, and just assume it's the LT. 100% false. Gandy is no stud, but he is adequate enough to give us another year. Our biggest need on offense was easily left guard. We addressed that in free agency. Reyes is a decent player who looked a lot better last year than he did the year before, so he's decent and improving. What people have to realize is that we're running new systems on both sides of the ball. The coaches have an idea as to who/what they need to fit the system. We're still going to have a tough year because of 1. Adapting to a new system, 2. Youth. The team is now very young, and it will take time to mature. However, we brought in some VERY GOOD defensive players. Sit back, and watch the development. That part will be fun. We still have 2 picks, and there are still a good handful of guys out there who all the experts had as late first day, early second day. Some of you have already rattled off a few names. This is quietly a very good draft. Our defensive backfield is going to be awesome for years to come.

[Drive 4 Five]

I went back and highlighted it for ya. :biggrin:

Why thank you darlin'

I understand everyone's frustration with the offensive line but like I have said over and over, there has been so much shuffling going on, and there is going to be more this year. Until we have a a group of players together for more than one season, we just do not know how good they can be.

[dplus47]

maybe it's an endorsement of the OL coach? don't you guys have a great one, supposedly? the great ones can get a lot out of limited talent. sometimes it takes a while to develop continuity. i have seen a LOT of expressions of confidence in the OL coach on this forum in the past, and maybe he can get the current group to play better if these comments have any basis in reality.

[LifetimeBillsFan]

Well since we are going 100% Defense then there should be no excuses right? We kept those that fit the system, drafted those that fit the system. We should be a top 5 Defense this year.

In the mean time they will set JP's development back further by not addressing LT when they had a chance. So we go LT next year...and lose a full year of development. I figure at this rate the new owner and his new staff will be reaping the fruits of this offseason.

Like it or not, ICE, this is a two year rebuilding process and this year the defense is getting rebuilt. Does that mean that the Bills' offense will struggle again this year? Yes. It should be a little better because of the addition of Reyes--who should be an improvement over B.Anderson and because Peters and Gandy should continue to improve some. But, the foundation for the future is being built.

You know that this was going to be a two year process. Now it appears that you are upset because the team is not being rebuilt the way that you want it to be rebuilt. But, you are not the GM of the team. If you want to be the GM so bad, write to R.Wilson, give him your bonafides, and, if Marv screws up as you predict, maybe he'll hire you. Good luck with the job interview!

[Drive 4 Five]

Like it or not, ICE, this is a two year rebuilding process and this year the defense is getting rebuilt. Does that mean that the Bills' offense will struggle again this year? Yes. It should be a little better because of the addition of Reyes--who should be an improvement over B.Anderson and because Peters and Gandy should continue to improve some. But, the foundation for the future is being built.

You know that this was going to be a two year process. Now it appears that you are upset because the team is not being rebuilt the way that you want it to be rebuilt. But, you are not the GM of the team. If you want to be the GM so bad, write to R.Wilson, give him your bonafides, and, if Marv screws up as you predict, maybe he'll hire you. Good luck with the job interview!

Well put LTBF.

[TedMock]

Ice, you're the one who has given Marv & Co. the most support throughout. All along you maintained that you have faith in the new regime, and you specifially stated several times that this is a "two offseason process." I agree with that. I think they've done a good job so far in the current offseason, and I think that with a lot of cap room, and more experience, next offseason will prove to be just as good, and we will be a team to worry about in 2007. The team is young, and we can't fill every need, but if they can continue to improve over the course of the season, we're in good shape. I'm staying with the plan, and looking forward to watching these kids grow.

[ublinkwescore]

Ice, are you bipolar?

Because, you know they make meds for that right?

[Dozerdog]

It is confusing , Ice.

You support the Free Agency moves to date- which are a lot easier to judge in the short term because you know exactly what you are getting.


Yet with the draft not even complete, you exert zero patience or understanding. Give me at #8 an OT not taken until the mid 2nd by Philly....blah..blah.. and so on. Most of the league bypassed OL early- and once McCargo was off the books- they bypassed DTs for a while too.


Is everybody wrong in judging the talent? Or just the Bills?

[patmoran2006]

AFter McCargo the next DT wasnt picked until 32 slots later (Claude Wroten to the Rams).

After Brick the next OT wasn't picked until 35 picks later when Winston Justice went to Philly in round two at pick 39.

The depth for OT and DT dicated what the Bills were going to do.

As far as safety, it's out now that Huff and Whitner were the top two.. They were also 6 safeties taken AFTER Whitner between pick 16 and the end of Round two. That suggests Marv knew safeties were going to go early, he clearly wanted a safety and with this many players thought he needed to take Whitner early.

[Michael82]

AFter McCargo the next DT wasnt picked until 32 slots later (Claude Wroten to the Rams).

After Brick the next OT wasn't picked until 35 picks later when Winston Justice went to Philly in round two at pick 39.

The depth for OT and DT dicated what the Bills were going to do.

As far as safety, it's out now that Huff and Whitner were the top two.. They were also 6 safeties taken AFTER Whitner between pick 16 and the end of Round two. That suggests Marv knew safeties were going to go early, he clearly wanted a safety and with this many players thought he needed to take Whitner early.
Good point! I don't mind the reaches. I was first pissed, but hey at least the Bills got their guys. :up:

[Kerr]

I think understand why marv went mostly defense. It's funny how the defense went once from being #2 to the bottom of the barrel.