Pont/Counterpoint: Tag Peerless Price?? You Decide

[Ebenezer]

Please take a read of our latest Point/Counterpoint article then come back here and vote as to what the Bills should do.

thanks.

http://www.billszone.com/YourSite/global/templates/view.php?action=YourSite_content&month=2&state=news&nid=4031

[don137]

Question. Is Clumps thought to tag him and trade him or tag him and keep him...

[clumping platelets]

I maintain that tagging him gives Tom Donahoe the best opportunity for either. Can't trade him if no tag and not likely to re-sign if he hits the market!

[The_Philster]

You both made valid arguments but I still have to side with Eb on this. I think Josh can do the job as a #2 guy and we can pick up a speed WR for half the price it would cost to franchise Price.

[Ingtar33]

I'll side with Eb on this one... Sign him before the 28th to a reasonable contract or let him go, so we can jump right in with our full pocketbook and work on the D.

Clump, I think your solution to the Price situation is elegant, and might work... the problem is NFL teams (or more correctly GMs) are loath to trade either players or draft picks for anything... let alone a player who is not even under contract (since there is no guarantee that they will be able to meet an agreement about the salary demands). The fact of the mater is other NFL teams will content themselves to try to out wait the Bills in an attempt to drive down Price's value, knowing that the longer we hold him and his imaginary (inflated franchise/transition) cap figure on our roster the more we will be unable to address in FA. In essence the moment we put out feelers to trade Price, his value will fall.

Furthermore, I'm not sure if what you propose is even do-able under the current CBA, since upon the Bills trading Price's rights, wouldn't he become a FA free for anyone to swoop by and pick up? (That is not a rhetorical question, because I honestly don't know the answer).

[Halbert]

You have a pont.

[Voltron]

I also side with Eb and I have to say I was leaning a little towards Clumps side but ingtar's comments have cemented it for me. Let him go. Good luck all that BS and let's get our hands dirty building a Defense.

[lordofgun]

I think Clump's point was that a trade would have to be worked out with a team PRIOR to tagging price. That way the team would not have competition for Price's services AND the Bills would get something for him.

If that's doable, I side with Clump.

[clumping platelets]

Rams did exactly what I proposed prior to the 2001 draft. They tagged DE Kevin Carter and then after signing him to the 1 yr tender, traded him to the Titans for their #1 pick in the 2001 draft a few days before the draft. Titans then signed him to a long-term deal after July 15th.

The CBA extension from last off-season now allows a team the first 2 weeks to reach a long-term deal and retain the franchise tag for future yrs.

[TypicalBill]

Originally posted by lordofgun
I think Clump's point was that a trade would have to be worked out with a team PRIOR to tagging price. That way the team would not have competition for Price's services AND the Bills would get something for him.

If that's doable, I side with Clump.


same here.

[Ingtar33]

CP,
I'm not entirely familiar with the Rams situation, but if I remember correctly, didn't the Rams actually sign Carter to a true, full fledged NFL contract (one negotiated by the Titans), which meant that the Rams absorbed a cap hit upon trading him (something in the range of 3 or so mil)? I'm almost positive that this is true, and would love someone to fill me in... Because if this is the case, than what you suggest CP is simply not an attractive option.

Additionally, wasn’t the reason that the Rams pulled the Carter trade because Carter refused to play for them anymore, and resented the franchise tag, feeling he had the right to seek the best deal for him. I don’t think that this was some grand scheme by the Rams to get something for Carter, but a saving face move once it became obvious he wouldn't sign with St. Louis for any money.

[Dozerdog]

Originally posted by clumping platelets
Rams did exactly what I proposed prior to the 2001 draft. They tagged DE Kevin Carter and then after signing him to the 1 yr tender, traded him to the Titans for their #1 pick in the 2001 draft a few days before the draft. Titans then signed him to a long-term deal after July 15th.

The CBA extension from last off-season now allows a team the first 2 weeks to reach a long-term deal and retain the franchise tag for future yrs.

If the Titans had the choice to do it over again, I think they would have passed.

[clumping platelets]

I would doubt the Rams would sign him to a long-term deal and then absorb the bonus acceleration.

[Ingtar33]

But they did... I just looked it up (all be it they were online sources). Carter signed a two tiered signing bonus 6 year contract with the Rams (negotiated by the Titans), and was then traded... the articles made it sound like this was a necessary step for the Rams to trade him.

here's a link...
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/don_banks/news/2001/03/28/banks_insider/

Here are a few quotes...
As the Rams' franchise player, Carter could not have been signed away by another team without that team giving up two first-round picks. But by signing Carter to a new deal, one negotiated by the Titans, before they shipped him to Tennessee, the Rams are settling for just half that price tag...

And the most significant line...
...After working out the terms of the contract and the compensation involved in the trade, all that remains for Tennessee is to free up the $1 million or so of cap room to fit Carter in...

*For a two tiered bonus contract with a 6mil avg. annual salary, for the Titans to have to absorb only 1 mil in the first season heavily implies that the first bonus was penalized against the St. Louis cap.

[clumping platelets]

Rams absorbed $3 million. However, the total signing bonus was actually $10 million with the Titans picking up the second tiered bonus. Rams still had to sign him to the 1 yr tender then "restructure". Otherwise, they may not have had the franchise tag available for OT Pace

[clumping platelets]

Also, that was a condition of the trade between the 2 teams, not due to a provision in the CBA

[clumping platelets]

I also believe that the Rams saved cap space because the tag was definitely more than $3 million

[Ingtar33]

That’s fine... I think my point was that the only time that this was carried out, the team trading the player had to sign him to a legit contract first... how much will that cost the Bills with Price?

Furthermore, you have to admit part of the reason that the Titans even gave up a first rounder was because they were getting him cheep the first year (due to the Rams absorbing the cap hit)... doesn't that imply that in order to get good value for Price we will also have to sweeten the deal by taking some sort of a cap hit for the team getting him?

Just some thoughts...

[clumping platelets]

Well, if the tag is $5.01 million and the Bills had to absorb say $2 million in order to get something for him, they still get $3 million in cap space back AND also, I suppose, the acquiring teams #1 this season that can be used to help the defense.

Again, Rams absorbing the $3 million was not required by the CBA, the originating team just needs to sign him to the 1 yr tender and then trade the player.

[Ingtar33]

Originally posted by clumping platelets
I also believe that the Rams saved cap space because the tag was definitely more than $3 million

That is true...
The franchise value that year for a DE was about 6mil and while they "saved" 3mil by trading him, they still had 3mil of dead cap space they would not have had; had they simply not tagged Carter.

What about Price? The franchise tag is about 5mil for a WR... will we have to eat 2mil or 3mil in cap space just because we want to trade him? What about the theoretical additional cost a any additional players or draft picks we get from such a deal? How serious will this effect our FA prospects this off-season?

This is just too large a can of worms to open.

[Ingtar33]

lol... sorry CP, didn't see that last post... funny when two minds cross the same point like that

[clumping platelets]

:snicker:

[Ebenezer]

IMO, $2 mil for the ablility to have a 1st round pick and then more to actually sign that player is not what I see in the Bills best wishes.

[clumping platelets]

I would rather get something for him.

I don't believe there was too many teams beating down the Rams door to get Carter. I believe it's different with Peerless. Boston's off-field problems, recent injury history,a dn the fact that the Cards are likely to franchise him, potentially makes Peerless THE berst available WR on the market. Many teams will be interested, thus the demand is there. Bills could try to work something out before the deadline on the 20th, if nothing then a team like Atlanta will likely be outbid for him and be left with little opportunity to upgrade their WR corp. Trading for him insures his acquisition while allowing him to hit the open market will not and just drive up the "price" :snicker:

[Ebenezer]

Then they better trade his rights before next week...that is the only way I can see this getting done. Although TD has surprised us before.

[Ingtar33]

Actually EB, if something like that were to happen I'd be all for the Bills to do it, as I don't see keeping Price for 5mil per season as an option, and I'd love to be able to draft someone in the first round.

My main complaint with this scheme (if you go back to the first post) was that it was unlikely the Bills would be able to make a swift deal, and as a result we might just end up holding the bag as the prized FA are snatched up. Personally, if teams like Atlanta, Washington or Tennessee showed up on my front door tomorrow, and offered me their 1st round pick for Price, and all I had to do was take a 2mil cap hit, I'd jump on it faster than you could say "done deal."

I just don't think the team is out there to do this in a timely fashion, which would result in us holding the bag and missing out on some FA as we screw around with trying to find a suitor. Remember, unlike St. Louis, Philly couldn't find a single team to trade for Trotter (and in my book he is worth way more than Price or Carter), and were forced to cut him after being idle for most of FA with that huge cap hog on their roster.

[clumping platelets]

Eb: Can't trade until after 2/28 :ontome: