badly warped == different from notty.Quote:
Originally Posted by notacon
badly warped == different from notty.Quote:
Originally Posted by notacon
That is how our guys see it too. Put the ball in Allen's hands and he will make some super human play that wins us the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by jamze132
He does it about 1/2 the time everyone bases their 'elite' status on his 1/2 successes.
But what about the failures? Look the other way.
Then send the field-goal team onto the field when you need a TD.
That certainly is putting the ball in his hands ....
Then go have some coffee because they have time they don't really need to plan and organize Uber Allen has it covered.
Nevermind you can see when the pressure is on the team pretty much always doesn't know what the **** to do.
Don't say "YOU" because I would be working it very differently.
Josh Allen probably is just as successful in KC as Mahomes has been and Mahomes is just as successful as Allen has been in Buffalo. I will admit my bias, I firmly believe Josh is the better qb. The problem is the Chiefs are the better built and above all coached team.Quote:
Originally Posted by TacklingDummy
you most definitely have never played the game and if you did you were not very good because you no nothing, Mahomes came into a perfect situation on a playoff caliber team and sat his whole 1st year under a head coach who was in his 2nd stint as a heade coach that made it to a superbowl but failed.Quote:
Originally Posted by notacon
Allen came into a team with absolutely not 1 starter on the offense that was there in year 2 and was thrown into the fire..with a head coach that has never been a head coach anywhere.
no one has a clue as to how many superbowls KC would have if Allen went there and did exactly what Mahomes did, he might have won 4 he might have won zero, I do know if Patrick would have became a Bill we still would be right where were at, they are 2 entirely different system KCs vs, Buff's. KC runs a west coast offense where the Bills run a offense that Daboll installed that rely's on the QB's ability to score with his legs, Mahomes isn't even close to Allens caliber when it comes to running with the football, Allen had 15 tds on 534 yards rushing the football on 111 attempts, if Mahomes ran that much he would be on injured reserve's..Mahomes had 389 yards rushing on 79 rush's with 0 tds.. Mahomes runs when he has to, Allens ability is installed in the system.
KC runs many screen plays, Buffalo runs maybe 2 wr screens that look pretty gruesome,,
plus KC won a superbowl this year wasn't because Mahomes was out of site with his play, they won because they played complimentary football. yes Mahomes came thruogh when needed in the playoffs but so did the defense, our defense has never came through, we score 35 point but give up 42 . thats not on Allen, Allen has played more than good enough to take A TEAM to win a Superbowl, the team he has been on has yet to play a playoff game when the team played complimentary Football...
This really is true. It’s insane.Quote:
Originally Posted by Novacane
But one thing about both Love and Rodgers: GB sat them on the bench and made them watch elite QB’s for several years before making them starters. That had to help. But most teams aren’t willing to do that anymore because a) if you’re drafting a potential elite QB, it’s probably because you had a bad season due to not having any QB options and b) QB contracts are becoming so high that you almost have to win a title on a QB’s rookie deal. After he gets paid, there’s no cap to put a team around him.
The economics of the game speaker it hard to sit a top QB prospect for 2 years.
Green Bay got lucky (assuming Love is the real deal). Three different regimes (potentially) hit on QBs.
ya'll are too young to remember when green bay struggled from 1968 to 1995 they won 1 division title... Farve was traded to GB in 1992... but it does show you the right way to keep a good QB on a team, you don't wait till you need a QB yet now with the CAP situation its hard to draft a QB early and sit him for 2 or 3 years with no production.Quote:
Originally Posted by OpIv37
I think a team should bring in a young QB every year weather by draft free agent what ever, if he develops you trade him and do it again.
I think Josh is Elite, but if people think it is the coaching staff that is the difference between the results the Bills have had over the past several years versus what the Chiefs have accomplished then I think that is a slam dunk case for the Bills needing to find new coaches. Particularly since it is so hard to find an elite quarterback.
Ownership needs to do everything in its power to maximize championship opportunities and upgrading coaching seems like the low hanging fruit.
:rofl: :rofl: Jesus. I guess you know more than current NFL coaches, GM's scouts and other professionals. Whatever. Keep your head in the sand if you like.Quote:
Originally Posted by cas22
Really interesting (and long) video podcast on Go Long, with Gerald "Smoke" Dixon who was employed by the Bills as a scout when they drafted Josh Allen. He was IN THE ROOM, while these evaluations were going on before the draft, on the day of the draft and afterwards.
He talks about how he evaluated ALL the QB's in the 2018 draft, and the interesting fact that Lamar Jackson was never considered by the Bills, and the mindset going into that draft was to PICK A QB, one of the four, Mayfield, Darnold, Allen or Rosen.
He stated the major issues (and why they had less a chance of becoming true "elite" QB's) with Mayfiled, Darnold and Rosen, (and recounts some of the discussions he had directly with Brandon Beane) while recognizing the rawness of Allen. Although THE biggest traits he saw from Josh was his extraordinary arm where he recounted that he "can still hear the fastball "whistle" off his throws", and even more importantly, Allen "mettle" in the pocket.
Josh's mindset in the pocket is rare indeed (and what Mayfield, Darnold and Rosen badly lacked). He just did not care and was never afraid of huge defensive players ready to pound on him. Josh is tough as nails.
He described it at (paraphrasing) "how a QB reacts when a cinder block is hurled into his face, and the ability to wait until it's inches away, move a little to the side and deliver the ball".
Yeah...Josh had those rare qualities that had several of the scouts "standing up on the tables and pounding their feet" to draft him.
BUT, he was undisciplined and raw, raw, raw. Josh thought he (and to some extent still does) could get out of any situation with his athleticism, which led him to poor decisions. Poor decisions that he STILL MAKES, albeit less and less (according the Dixon watching film).
Worse yet, Dixon describes Josh as "not living in the film room early in his career" as he did not take the mental part of the game seriously, again, thinking he could use his "backyard style" to be successful.
THAT is one of the reasons it took Josh several year to develop into an elite QB. And THAT is why Mahomes almost instantly WAS considered an "elite" QB, by REAL NFL PROFESSIONALS from as soon as he became starter.
The analysis from REAL NFL PROFESSIONALS was based on how the innate qualities the QB showed not the system he was in.
I already posted how the REAL NFL PROFESSIONALS ranked Mahomes (as compared to Josh) in Tiers. Here it is again since you obviously are ignoring what the REAL experts say.
2023 had Mahomes getting ALL 50 votes placing him in Tier 1.
2022 he got 49 Tier 1 votes and one Tier 2.
2021 he got ALL 50 votes for Tier 1.
2020 he got ALL 50 votes for Tier 1.
2019 he got 48 votes for Tier 1 and 7 votes for Tier 2.
So, in all the FIVE season Patrick Mahomes was the starting QB for KC, he got 247 votes out of a possible 255 for Tier 1. A whopping 96.8%.
Josh Allen on the other hand, took three years to climb into Tier 1 territory.
2023 – JA got 44 Tier 1 votes and 6 Tier 2.
2022 – JA’s first year obtaining Tier 1 status his voting average was 1.22 for Tier 1 (they do not give vote totals every year)
2021 – JA got 20 Tier 1 votes and 30 Tier 2. He was deemed a “Tier 2” that year.
2020 – JA got 4 Tier 2 votes, 40 Tier 3 and 6 Tier 4. He was deemed a “Tier 3” QB.
2019 – JA received 18 Tier 3 votes, 36 Tier 4 and 1 Tier 5. He was deemed a “Tier 4” QB.
So, NFL professionals with all their expertise and experience, have made it crystal clear that Mahomes has been an ELITE TIER 1 QB since the day he became starter.
Josh Allen has steadily improved and now is consider a Tier 1 QB, but STILL behind Mahomes.
What NFL team have you ever played for????? What NFL team have you ever been a GM for....what NFL team have you ever been a coach, or scout for?!?!?
Please....just stop with the lame "you most definitely have never played the game and if you did you were not very good because you no nothing" bullcrap. I listen to the people that not only have "played the game" but are at the PINNACLE of the NFL Profession
These people have forgotten more about football than you will ever know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OpIv37
"Green Bay got lucky"?!?!? It sure does not look that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goobylal
As Opi points out "The economics of the game speaker [sic] it hard to sit a top QB prospect for 2 years" but Green Bay has not done it once, but TWICE.
Both times when they had a proven elite QB starting. Both times, they used a late first round pick that royally pissed off the incumbent superstar, not only bucking the usual use of a high 1st round pick either "because you had a bad season due to not having any QB options" or trading up (spending precious future draft capital).
Green Bay, after finishing 10-6 in 2004, with Farve ranked #5 in passing yards, drafted Rodgers at #24 in 2005.
Green Bay, after finishing 13-3 in 2019, with Rodgers ranking #11 in passing yards, but throwing for 26 TD, and only FOUR INT's, drafted Love at #26.
Buffalo, on the other hand, gave a MASTER CLASS in how to TOTALLY **** UP a draft AND drafting a QB in 2004, that had them looking like FOOLS when GB stealing Rodgers in 2005.
To remind everyone...
Bills had the #13 pick in 2004, and picked Lee Evans. The BEST QB CLASS in recent memory, where a SMART GM would have sold the house to move up to bag Rothlisberger, by moving ahead of them at #11 (to be fair we don't know how much they tried, or if it would have been possible....but, come on...if they had any kind of balls (which I strongly suspect of because of Ralph Wilson, who was a terrible owner), they could have gotten it done).
So, missing their chance, and settling for a pretty good WR, they COMPOUND the ****up and incredibility stupidly TRADE AWAY THEIR 2005 first round pick (along with their 2004 second round and fifth round picks) to move up to get JP Losman?!?!?!
The 2005 pick that Buffalo traded away for the bust Losman turned out to be #20....PRIME position to draft the sliding Aaron Rodgers.
Yeah....one team shows smarts with forward thinking, the other has their collective heads up their asses.
"Luck" had little to do with it.
LOL! It was total luck. All 3 QBs were taken by different GM/HC combos 13+ years apart. Do you think Ron Wolf/Mike Holmgren left their "how to draft/develop a QB" manual in the Green Bay HQ?Quote:
Originally Posted by notacon
And if it were as easy as drafting a QB, having him sit behind a HOF'er and becoming a HOF'er himself, Jimmy G would be one. But let's wait to see where Love goes from here first.
I agree but it's easier said than done. If McDermott fails to get the Bills to the SB in the next couple years, and certainly if they miss the playoffs, they'll have to find someone else.Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS
LOL! No it was NOT "total luck"Quote:
Originally Posted by Goobylal
Just like the Bills drafting and developing Josh Allen was NOT "total luck" .
How silly.
This is just dumb. Getting a franchise QB is luck. Just look at how many QBs bust. Getting 2 consecutively is even greater luck. How many teams have done that? And 3 is unprecedented. Especially when Rodgers and Love were taken at the end of round 1, meaning almost every team passed on them. There's no magic formula Green Bay has.Quote:
Originally Posted by notacon
Ehhhhh....it can partially be luck. I mean, how you finish the year before kind of determines what position you sit in on draft day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goobylal
It's hard to measure what a guy has in his heart.
Rodgers and Love had the benefit of being able to sit and learn, while the Darnolds and the Mayfields were thrown to the wolves.
I think of the Allen drafting.
Everyone wanted a bigger name, from a bigger school, with better stats.
Clearly the Bills did their homework on Allen, despite their detractors saying that his accuracy was bad and couldn't be coached out of him.
I think a lot of work goes into it, and to dismiss it as "luck" is a bit too simplistic.
Right on!Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goobylal
You are too close minded to see reality.
"How many teams have done that?" in getting two consecutive franchise QB's in a row actually proves the point that it's not all "luck" for Green Bay.
In fact, the way the Packers did it, both times, selecting a QB late in the first round while having a franchise QB still active and on the roster, shows institutional expertise.
Contra the Bills, who's mostly (broken p only by Jim Kelly...who they did everything to **** that up by letting him play in the USFL instead of the Bills after they drafted him...besides the fact that they did not even use their first 1st round pick on him that year) to have institutional FAILURE when it comes to QB's....UNTIL RALPH WILSON NO LONGER OWNER THE TEAM.
Another example of a team's institutional failure with QB's is Chicago.
No, what is "luck" is selecting Tom Brady with the 199th pick and Brock Purdy with the last pick. THAT is "luck"
Yep. As I pointed pout, the Packers went WELL OUTSIDE of the usual custom of a team having a ****ty QB after a ****ty year, that gave them a high enough draft position to go after one of the best prospects.Quote:
Originally Posted by Historian
GB was coming off very good years (record wise) WINNING THEIR DIVISION with a future HOF QB (Farve) and a probable future HOF QB (Rodgers) on the roster and still, more or less, in their prime....and spent that 1st round pick, pissing off their franchise QB, which allowed them time to develop that QB at a pace that was beneficial to both the team AND the QB.
I've heard Ryan Leaf talk about this many times on GMFB. One of the main reasons he was a bust was being drafted so high, being seen as the teams' savior, and thrown to the wolves when he was not even close to ready.
Josh was also thrown to the wolves on one of the worst offenses I've ever seen the Bills field. He was the 3rd QB taken and I'd say that the Bills landing him was "partial luck" because even though they made a concerted effort to move up to take him, they still had to sweat-out picks 1-6 since he was being talked about as the 1st overall pick and there were 4 teams in need of QBs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Historian
Getting a franchise QB period is luck, even if you have the first overall, much less hitting on QBs at the end of first round like Green Bay did. Just look at last year. I mean, did anyone see CJ Stroud being a stud? He came from one of the worst major college programs for NFL QB success and he bombed the S2, considered the best test for QB success in the NFL. Would you say he had "heart" before he was drafted? Would you say Rodgers did? How do you measure it?
Now if the same regime in Green Bay had drafted all 3 QBs, I'd say it was less less luck and more a blueprint. But they didn't have a single person remaining (meaning front office/GM, coaches or scouts) from the time when Favre was traded for or when Rodgers was drafted because over a dozen years had passed in both instances. And again Rodgers and Love were drafted at spots 24 and 26 overall respectively, allowing for almost any team to take them before Green Bay did, with several teams looking for QBs those years.
Having a QB sit for a few years isn't a guarantee of anything and in this day and age, it's not feasible. Back some 20 years ago when you could take years to develop a QB it made more sense, but again, it rarely happened that a franchise QB was succeeded by another one, much less another one after that.
So it's "institutional success"? All that's needed is the Green Bay name and voila, they automatically draft franchise QBs from now on? LOL!Quote:
Originally Posted by notacon
Allen has elite skills and maybe even intangibles, but his mental grasp of the game is borderline average, being generous. Plus he has anxiety issues he needs to overcome.
Burrows isn't anywhere in Josh's league physically, but he is slightly better in intangibles and a light year above mentally. That's why he's beaten a better team on the road, won a conference championship and competed for a Super Bowl.
I wouldn't trade Josh for any other QB in the league, bar none, but if I had to bet money I would take Burrows getting to another SB before Josh does.