Mark Cambell is awesome!!!

[don137]

Thanks Jd for the feedback...One thing to remember about Jenkins. He was signed by TD before the draft so they didn't know that they would get Coy Wire and that he would develop into a starter so quickly. In hindsight yes he was a bad signing but if for a minute the Bills knew they would get Wire in the draft and he would of developed so quickly they would of never signed Jenkins. I also am not sure if they had enough money to sign Farrior if you take out Jenkins and Robinson's contract. Plus whose to say Farrior would want to come here last year. Given the Bills salary cap and assuming Price will not be here and take Campbell and Posey out of the equation who do you think the Bills should get to fill the backup TE, weak and strong side linebacker, DT, possibly a DE and leave enough money for a couple depth positions, kicker and the draft.

Wys, I assume you are referring to Denney as a bust and not Reed when you mentioned our second round pick. I think many people were disappointed in Denney. They lost there 3rd and 4th round pick for Denney. Picked up Wire with the comepensetory pick in round 3, the jury is still out on Bannan, their 5th round pick, but early on he looks like nothing more than a journeyman, Thomas is round 6. Too early to tell on the players picked up in round 7 but right now Wright is a bust and Pucillo looks like a project player. Overall besides Denney I was thrilled with the job they did in the middle rounds.

[WG]

Right, Denney. LOL You know I'm very high on Reed.

On Denney, what surprised me is if I remember correctly, he wasn't on a single draft list higher than the 5th round and then only on some. There wasn't another analyst/team who said it was a good pick. There was only seeming bewilderment.

Ie., seems to me even if we were interested in Denney, that we could have used the late 2nd for someone else and still grabbed Denney in the 4th or so if the staff was so high on him.

Just shows that even the scouts are often wrong.

Thomas was a GREAT pick in round 6. I really think that Thomas is gonna be our best pure cover guy this year. He doesn't seem to be able to play the run nearly as hard as AW or NC, but at least for the games he played last season, he was on his man like glue which was a coverage ability that we didn't have prior to that. Even AW and NC aren't that good in coverage.

Once we fix our DL, everything will shake out. It'll "flow downhill" so-to-speak. That's assuming we actually get a DT like Thornton, who would be perfect for this team. A very good run stuffer who can rush the passer too. He's not great at either, but well above average in both. Plays the run better. I had my eye on him last year once my Titans bud told me that he was not going to be with the Titans this upcoming season. He was right, Thornton's a very good player. What I like about him is that he's just entering his prime. Those are the types of players that we should pick up. They're less expensive, they're solid and only expected to improve as they enter and reach their primes, and their underrated given all that.

[WG]

BTW, how and where would you rate our 2002 offseason?

Here was our draft:

1 4 Mike Williams OT Texas
2 36 Josh Reed WR LSU
2 61 Ryan Denney DE Brigham Young
3 97 Coy Wire S Stanford
5 139 Justin Bannan DT Colorado
6 176 Kevin Thomas CB UNLV
7 215 Mike Pucillo OG Auburn
7 250 Rodney Wright WR Fresno St.
7 252 Jarrett Ferguson FB Virginia Tech
7 260 Dominique Stevenson OLB Tennessee

Here were our FA pickups or other acquired:

Ahanotu
Bledsoe
Fletcher
Hollis
Huntley
Jenkins
Johnson
Moore
M. Price
Robinson
Rogers

[WG]

In hindsight, I'd rate our draft a B+ only b/c after Reed at 36, only 2 of 8 players drafted seem to be headed to amounting to anything. Wire and Thomas and neither are givens yet either.

Williams at #4 overall was a no brainer especially given our obvious need for an OT first and foremost, and so was Reed at #36 overall since no one had taken him and he was the most prolific, or one of the 2/3 most prolific WRs in the draft last year w/ exceptional SEC credentials and accolades.

Our free-agency/trade success was largely defined by the Bledsoe deal. I still think that N.E. would have given him to us outright if we had waited a little longer. TD could have played better poker then. He could have signed Blake for vet min or very near it and then outwaited N.E. to where we wouldn't have had to give up our pick. Anyway, Bledsoe's signing really defined our offseason since he was such a marquee player.

After that, I'll create four categories:

Good/very good moves, Moves that helped us but weren't stellar, Average take it or leave it moves, and Busts or Ho-Hum moves.

Good/very good moves: Bledsoe, Price (depth only however and wasn't a huge factor)

Moves that helped us but weren't stellar: Fletcher, Hollis, Moore

Average take it or leave it moves: Ahanotu, Rogers

Busts or Ho-Hum moves that either didn't help us or were awful: Huntley, Jenkins, Johnson, Robinson

Not saying those players aren't OK, just that they didn't do anything for us. Robinson was one of the worst signings in Bills' history IMO.

[justasportsfan]

Not great but good. I will base this on how the team went from 3-13 to 8-8 . 1 game away from playoffs. From being the joke of the AFCE to being a respectable team and team to watch all in 2 years time.


Hopefully , we will be a ligit contender instead of pretender via the FA. The FA's we got last year were simply plug and play. Keep what worked and get rid of what didn't. (Robinson)

[casdhf]

Must be something in the water in Virginia.

[WG]

Yeah, well as much as many don't want to admit it, our schedule had a lot to do with our being .500 last year.

We beat a 2-14 team, a 3-13 team, two 4-12 teams, a 6-10 team, and then only an 8-8 team and Miami in two games in which they were at their worst all season injury wise.

So I'm not puttin' too much credence in our record.

We can put a 12-4 team on the field as long as we address our DL issues and sign decent LB who can play both the run and pass. But if we end up stuck w/ Price and sign only a bunch of "Poseys", then that won't happen and we can expect another .500 season. Especially in our division which should improve again all the way around.

[don137]

I'd say a B+ is a very accurate grade. It would of been an A if Denney showed us something. He really hurt the draft grade. To give up a 3rd and 4th rounder was a disappointement considering he was 25 years old and he did not contribute much. Picking up Reed made Price expendable and TD had the vision ahead of time to see this. That was a A+ management move.

Considering the dollars they had to spend on Fletcher and Bledsoe there was not a lot of money to spend on the other positions. I believe TD realized the Bills are in rebuilding mode and realized players all those signings like Robinson, Ahonotu, Johnson, Huntley and Jenkins were fillers. Not a lot of money was shelled out for those players and I didn't see a lot of other players they could of signed to similar salaries. Many people are are very critical of the Jenkins signing but he was signed before the draft and TD didn't know he would be able to draft Wire no one expected Wire to be as contribute so fast.
I really liked the Moore signing but I did not like the Rogers trade. I thought Rogers sucked as a return man.
Considering the money TD had to work with due to the salary cap and the difficulty of attracting FA players to Buffalo (remember Drew did not become a Bill before we were a month and a half into FA) I would give his 2002 off-season grade a B.
This year is the real test for TD and Modrak. They have the money to sign some players and Buffalo appears to be an up and coming team so it should be more marketable players.

[WG]

Nicely summed up 137!!!

On Denney, what made that move really bad was that we could have easily used one of the traded picks to get him instead.

On Rogers and Jenkins, I wasn't speculating as to why those players didn't help much, just that when it all shook out, they were what they were.

Rogers helped us since we had absolutely no return man prior. He wasn't great, but he wasn't a bust either. He was at or near average. A tad below IMO. Jenkins I questioned when it was made. I would have done something different or planned on drafting a rookie S.

I strongly agree that this year's FAcy plan will determine how good TD is. He has both cap space and quite a few options.

Don't forget however, that even last year we sorely needed a DT, our second greatest need actually, even then. We were told that there wasn't enough money to get one and that it would have to wait until this year. Well, here it is. So does money talk, or B.S. walk on this issue?

That remains to be seen...

[Tatonka]

not that i think denny is a good pick at all.. but wys, pittsburg was about to draft him, that is why td moved up to get him.. just a fyi

[Stewie]

"On Denney, what made that move really bad was that we could have easily used one of the traded picks to get him instead."

Umm sorry dude but Pittsburgh went on the record saying they were going to draft Denney with the very next pick after we got him.


I strongly agree that this year's FAcy plan will determine how good TD is. He has both cap space and quite a few options.

[jdbillsfan]

Well, I have calmed down a little bit since you last heard from me. I have returned to wait and see mode, instead of bitter and angry.

I still stand by everything I said though and still not enamored with TD. I think B+ is a high grade for the last draft considering we had the 4th pick in the 1st two rounds. Thomas might be good and that would be great and I hope Wire learns how to tackle, but other than that not much.

Wasn't really happy with the FA picks last year, except flecther and Bledsoe was a good move, even though we were basically the only team after him besides the Bengals. Still thought we coulda signed another good player like Farrior or Fisk instead of the 12 other scrubs we signed and the foreman trade hurt us, but I will be patient this year.

I think Noble just signed for almost the same as we payed for Posey and I have a feeling that TD is gonna pass on Thorton as well. The only players who seem to be on our radar screen are Sam Adams and Takeo Spikes which would definitely limit what more we could do this year in FA. Spikes would be a good pickup, but S. Adams sucks.

Guess we just have to wait and see. Not sure if it is something in the water or not, but I think guys from Virginia just know more about football.


JUST KIDDING!!!

[justasportsfan]

Originally posted by jdbillsfan
but I think guys from Virginia just know more about football

Yup, it's the water :drinker:

[WG]

Thanks T, PaulB,

I wasn't aware of Pittsburgh's intentions. Still, he wasn't listed on many draft boards in the first 3 or 4 rounds. I couldn't find him on any of the main 3 or 4 that I was using I remember.


jd,

I think Upshaw's the one who signed for about what Posey signed for. I couldnt' find $ info on Noble, but if he only signed for ~ $2M/yr., then we'd have had to have been cracked to not insist he come here for an interview if we didn't.

On Thornton it's funny, we pick up all kinds of junk from Pittsburgh and Tennessee, and then when it comes to a player who's available and who we need, we don't even budge.



Not exactly marks of genious.

[don137]

Wys, I believe I saw Noble signed a 4 year 7 million dollar contract. I thought that was a great price for him.