Ronnie Brown not looking too good.

[JoeMama]

Re: Ronnie Brown not looking too good.

Miami's been in a rut over the past 10 years regarding first round draft picks.

1997: Yatil Green - Tore ACL twice in training camp, never played.

1998: John Avery - Selected over Randy Moss. Imagine Dan Marino hooking up with Moss to end his career. Scary thought; I'm glad it didn't happen.

1999: No Draft Pick

2000: No Draft Pick

2001: Jamar Fletcher - Selected over Drew Brees, whom most analysts assumed was the Dolphins original target. Also, I can't even remember the amount of Fish fans that actually argued he would be better than Nate Clements.

2002: No Draft Pick

2003: No Draft Pick

2004: Vernon Carey - Pretty solid after a very slow start to his career. If I remember correctly, I think he went from a backup, to right guard, then to right tackle. We'll see how he does at left tackle this season.

2005: Ronnie Brown - Not bad but hasn't lived up to number two overall status in the draft.

2006: Jason Allen - Rough start to his career and it looks like he'll be the fourth cornerback this season. Too early to write him off, but I never liked the pick.

2007: Ted Ginn Jr - I thought it was an odd choice at number nine overall in the draft. We'll see though.

[duhbilz]

Re: Ronnie Brown not looking too good.

Unfortunately, you haven't read the detailed posts that I've made on this subject addressing both lines specifically. I will try to find them and post it here shortly. Your post is uninformed.

I'll be glad to read it, but don't waste my time if the post is loaded with bias views.Fans have a way of spinning things to suit there hope. I would rather read something that's honest and not sugar coated. Based on everything I know about the two lines, I'd be willing to bet you painted a favorable light on one line while doing just the oposite to the other. We'll see.

[FinFaninBuffalo]

Re: Ronnie Brown not looking too good.

Sometimes stats don't tell the whole story. We had a significant amt of sacks last year early in the season. After our bye week in mid year, significant changes were made and afterward, the sack average dropped quite a bit. Unfortunately, the total numbers are skewed on the 1st half of the season.

The Fins gave up 21 sacks in the first 4 games and 20 sacks after that, so exactly the same argument can be made for the Fins. In 2005, the Fins only allowed 26 sacks. Their OL coach seems to be able to teach the OL to pass block. Ronnie Brown has also averaged 4.3 YPC over the last two seasons.

However, does that really matter? The Bills have made significant changes such that more than half the line might be new starters (RG is still up in the air on who will win that position).

The Fins may have all five as new starters.

The left side was already pretty strong and with Dockery there, it has gotten that much stronger!

They should be solid on the left side.

Langston Walker may not scare you, but he's got more experience than Pennington did who was a rookie last year trying to quickly adjust to the NFL game - so he's still a step up - not to mention that he will be an ummovable mountain and your only chance is to run around him b'cse running through him is not an option!

Walker gave up 10.5 sacks last year. Enough said. Oakland's line was ranked worse than the Bills. They gave up 72 sacks. From what I have read, both Dockery and Walker are poor pass blockers.

Lastly, we have more experienced depth than we did last year with all the rookies we had on the team. I wouldn't write our new Oline off as casually as you have done. The FO has given them a great deal of attention (unlike in Miami) and I think the results will show this year.

You need to read up more on the Fins before you make statements. The Fins are likely to have 2 or 3 new starters on the line and all 5 players in new positions. How is that not giving the OL attention? They main difference is that Miami has been trying to rebuild the line via the draft. Depending on whether Alabi or Shelton starts at RT, the Fins OL may consist entirely of players drafted by the Fins (Carey, Mormino, Satele, Hadnot, Alabi).

[mysticsoto]

Re: Ronnie Brown not looking too good.

The Fins gave up 21 sacks in the first 4 games and 20 sacks after that, so exactly the same argument can be made for the Fins. In 2005, the Fins only allowed 26 sacks. Their OL coach seems to be able to teach the OL to pass block. Ronnie Brown has also averaged 4.3 YPC over the last two seasons.

Uhhh...yeah, but who had a 0.0 pass rating? I know for the sake of this argument, you'd like to pin that all on Harrington, but truth of the matter is, his Oline had alot to do with his apparent ineptness!!! Having to run for your life and/or throw the ball away (or make hurried bad passes) also falls on the side of the Oline!

The Fins may have all five as new starters.

They've mostly shuffled people around. LJ Shelton? Please. He has sucked everywhere he's gone.

They should be solid on the left side.

Yes, we will. And if you saw some of the games last year, you saw that we were already pretty solid last year and McGahee got all his yards from the left side. That will be even moreso solid this year!!!

Walker gave up 10.5 sacks last year. Enough said. Oakland's line was ranked worse than the Bills. They gave up 72 sacks. From what I have read, both Dockery and Walker are poor pass blockers.

Yep, they are poor pass blockers but great run blockers. I guess they opted for a balance between the two. And 10.5 sacks in 16 games is < 1 per game. That's not terrible for a tackle position - though it certain can be improved with better personnel and coaching around you.

You need to read up more on the Fins before you make statements. The Fins are likely to have 2 or 3 new starters on the line and all 5 players in new positions. How is that not giving the OL attention? They main difference is that Miami has been trying to rebuild the line via the draft. Depending on whether Alabi or Shelton starts at RT, the Fins OL may consist entirely of players drafted by the Fins (Carey, Mormino, Satele, Hadnot, Alabi).

The fins have done what we did in the TD era...shuffle people around and bring in has-beens and bums who can't block for sh**. I don't really expect much of your Oline and think your QB will suffer b'cse of it. I like Trent, but I won't feel bad for him each time he gets hit.

Here are some relevant quotes:

Cameron, looking for a consistent protector of his quarterback's blind side, believes Carey has the ability to fill the role.
''He and I've talked about it,'' Cameron said. ``. . . He's excited about that opportunity, and this young man has a lot of ability, and I came in with an open mind. In my view we've got a guy who can develop into the kind of left tackle we're looking for.''
That is asking a lot of a player who only a year ago was a question mark at his familiar right tackle spot, a player who was a left guard and right tackle in college, a player who had a short experiment at left tackle his rookie year.
An experiment that failed.
But the Dolphins will nonetheless be mixing Carey and other players in the lab the next few days trying to conjure a starting offensive line.
L.J. Shelton, who has played left tackle most of his career, came to the Dolphins last season to fill that position. But in starting there the first five games, he was the lowest-graded starter along the line in three of those.
So the Dolphins moved him to right guard, where he played well enough to start the final 11 games of the season. Shelton was still at right guard during last month's minicamp but now will go to right tackle, a spot he has played only one of his eight NFL seasons, in 2004 with Arizona.

'In an ideal sense we don't want guys 330, 340, 350 pounds playing guard,'' Cameron said. ``We want guys that can think, and can move and are mobile. We'd like our bigger guys to be at tackle. Obviously they need to be athletic. L.J. has had a ton of time in this league playing tackle.'' But Shelton has never really found a home during that time.
The Cardinals, a team needing talent on the offensive line, released him in 2005. The Browns, also needing talent there, let Shelton leave in free agency after one season.
Other players might also get a chance at the tackle spots if the Shelton and Carey experiments explode in coaches' faces. Joe Toledo, at 6-5 and 330 pounds, might get a chance at tackle and, in fact, is listed as a tackle on roster. He played mostly guard during the 2006 preseason.
Anthony Alabi, who manned the left tackle spot in the last minicamp, might get a chance to compete at either tackle spot once he recovers from arthroscopic knee surgery.
All this while the interior of the line is also in flux.

http://origin.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/sports/17175200.htm

[Mudflap1]

Re: Ronnie Brown not looking too good.

Blah Blah Blah... Ryan Denney... 3 sacks versus Vernon Carey in 1/2 a game (Miami's supposed best offensive linemen that is being ballyhooed). That's all the evidence I need.

The point of the conversation wasn't whose line is better either, it's that Miami's line sucks until proven otherwise.

We'll see what the players prove on the field.

Jon

[FinFaninBuffalo]

Re: Ronnie Brown not looking too good.

Uhhh...yeah, but who had a 0.0 pass rating? I know for the sake of this argument, you'd like to pin that all on Harrington, but truth of the matter is, his Oline had alot to do with his apparent ineptness!!! Having to run for your life and/or throw the ball away (or make hurried bad passes) also falls on the side of the Oline!

Why do Bills fans keep ignoring the facts? Your OL gave up more sacks and was a worse run blocking line than the Fins last season. Period. End of discussion.

They've mostly shuffled people around. LJ Shelton? Please. He has sucked everywhere he's gone.

At least 3, possibly 4 of the players will be new.

And 10.5 sacks in 16 games is < 1 per game. That's not terrible for a tackle position

The fins have done what we did in the TD era...shuffle people around and bring in has-beens and bums who can't block for sh**. I don't really expect much of your Oline and think your QB will suffer b'cse of it. I like Trent, but I won't feel bad for him each time he gets hit.

Dude, Tuten Reyes was brought in by Levy. He finished the season as the waterboy. Langston Walker sucks. The Bill are paying him a lot of money. How has anything changed?

Here are some relevant quotes:

Cameron, looking for a consistent protector of his quarterback's blind side, believes Carey has the ability to fill the role.
''He and I've talked about it,'' Cameron said. ``. . . He's excited about that opportunity, and this young man has a lot of ability, and I came in with an open mind. In my view we've got a guy who can develop into the kind of left tackle we're looking for.''
That is asking a lot of a player who only a year ago was a question mark at his familiar right tackle spot, a player who was a left guard and right tackle in college, a player who had a short experiment at left tackle his rookie year.
An experiment that failed.
But the Dolphins will nonetheless be mixing Carey and other players in the lab the next few days trying to conjure a starting offensive line.
L.J. Shelton, who has played left tackle most of his career, came to the Dolphins last season to fill that position. But in starting there the first five games, he was the lowest-graded starter along the line in three of those.
So the Dolphins moved him to right guard, where he played well enough to start the final 11 games of the season. Shelton was still at right guard during last month's minicamp but now will go to right tackle, a spot he has played only one of his eight NFL seasons, in 2004 with Arizona.

'In an ideal sense we don't want guys 330, 340, 350 pounds playing guard,'' Cameron said. ``We want guys that can think, and can move and are mobile. We'd like our bigger guys to be at tackle. Obviously they need to be athletic. L.J. has had a ton of time in this league playing tackle.'' But Shelton has never really found a home during that time.
The Cardinals, a team needing talent on the offensive line, released him in 2005. The Browns, also needing talent there, let Shelton leave in free agency after one season.
Other players might also get a chance at the tackle spots if the Shelton and Carey experiments explode in coaches' faces. Joe Toledo, at 6-5 and 330 pounds, might get a chance at tackle and, in fact, is listed as a tackle on roster. He played mostly guard during the 2006 preseason.
Anthony Alabi, who manned the left tackle spot in the last minicamp, might get a chance to compete at either tackle spot once he recovers from arthroscopic knee surgery.
All this while the interior of the line is also in flux.
http://origin.miami.com/mld/miamiher...s/17175200.htm

Those quotes were from May. The OL hadn't played a snap in pads yet.

[FinFaninBuffalo]

Re: Ronnie Brown not looking too good.

Blah Blah Blah... Ryan Denney... 3 sacks versus Vernon Carey in 1/2 a game (Miami's supposed best offensive linemen that is being ballyhooed). That's all the evidence I need.

The point of the conversation wasn't whose line is better either, it's that Miami's line sucks until proven otherwise.

We'll see what the players prove on the field.

Jon

And the Bills line sucks worse until proven otherwise.

Even a Bills fan should be able to determine which is better -

1. Giving up (a) 47 sacks or (b) 41 sacks
2. Averaging (a) 3.7 YPC or (b) 4.2 YPC

If the higher order math is stumping you, I'll give you a hint - the answer is (b).

Keep living in your fantasy world.

[Mudflap1]

Re: Ronnie Brown not looking too good.

And the Bills line sucks worse until proven otherwise.

Even a Bills fan should be able to determine which is better -

1. Giving up (a) 47 sacks or (b) 41 sacks
2. Averaging (a) 3.7 YPC or (b) 4.2 YPC

Keep living in your fantasy world.

Dude, there you go again. You're such a friggin' whiny little crybaby about this. I go and post something that is non-confrontational, and leave it with a good enough conclusion (let the players do the talking) and you have to come back with a condescending response that isn't the point of the argument. The argument is whether Miami's line sucks now. Not compared to Buffalo, although as it stands RIGHT NOW I don't see how you can win that argument. Buffalo's line wasn't that good last year, and some improvements have been made in the offseason. My argument wasn't whose line was better LAST year. However, what was your record last year? If your defense was so great (which they were good), then if you had a better offensive line (and Saint Nick at head coach) you'd think your record would have been better than Buffalo's last year. And Buffalo outscored Miami 37-6 last year too. And what did your coaches do with that stellar cast? They overhauled the offensive line.

I think Miami's line is one of the 5 worst in the league right now. I think Buffalo's improved. We'll see if that plays out though. Sorry, Vernon Carey (see above quotes about him and 3 sacks from Denney and 1 from Kelsay in one game last year) along with Monica Lewinski, Shelton, and co. don't impress me. Not at all. At least we have one or two guys on our line who are being talked about as possible Pro Bowl-caliber players. How do you not see this? I know, because you are delusional and spend your days trying to irritate Bills' fans on a Bills' message board with inflammatory comments when you cannot dispute Bills' fans' arguments.

You're the one in a fantasy world. Keep drinking the aqua Kool-Aid smartass. And go away too, Bills' fans aren't interested in listening to your insulting conjectures.

Jon

[duhbilz]

Re: Ronnie Brown not looking too good.

Dude, there you go again. You're such a friggin' whiny little crybaby about this.

Jon

Bottom line is you can find good and bad with both lines last year and neither line has played a game this year. So neither Dolphin fans or Bill fans can claim anything till they play.

[!Papacrunk!]

Re: Ronnie Brown not looking too good.

Bottom line is you can find good and bad with both lines last year and neither line has played a game this year. So neither Dolphin fans or Bill fans can claim anything till they play.

ding ding ding, we have a winner! And it only took two sentences. compared to other peeps' paragraphs

[Mudflap1]

Re: Ronnie Brown not looking too good.

Bottom line is you can find good and bad with both lines last year and neither line has played a game this year. So neither Dolphin fans or Bill fans can claim anything till they play.

This is an acceptable response.

Jon

[FinFaninBuffalo]

Re: Ronnie Brown not looking too good.

Dude, there you go again. You're such a friggin' whiny little crybaby about this. I go and post something that is non-confrontational, and leave it with a good enough conclusion (let the players do the talking) and you have to come back with a condescending response that isn't the point of the argument. The argument is whether Miami's line sucks now. Not compared to Buffalo, although as it stands RIGHT NOW I don't see how you can win that argument. Buffalo's line wasn't that good last year, and some improvements have been made in the offseason. My argument wasn't whose line was better LAST year. However, what was your record last year? If your defense was so great (which they were good), then if you had a better offensive line (and Saint Nick at head coach) you'd think your record would have been better than Buffalo's last year. And Buffalo outscored Miami 37-6 last year too. And what did your coaches do with that stellar cast? They overhauled the offensive line.

I think Miami's line is one of the 5 worst in the league right now. I think Buffalo's improved. We'll see if that plays out though. Sorry, Vernon Carey (see above quotes about him and 3 sacks from Denney and 1 from Kelsay in one game last year) along with Monica Lewinski, Shelton, and co. don't impress me. Not at all. At least we have one or two guys on our line who are being talked about as possible Pro Bowl-caliber players. How do you not see this? I know, because you are delusional and spend your days trying to irritate Bills' fans on a Bills' message board with inflammatory comments when you cannot dispute Bills' fans' arguments.

You're the one in a fantasy world. Keep drinking the aqua Kool-Aid smartass. And go away too, Bills' fans aren't interested in listening to your insulting conjectures.

Jon

You want to talk smack, prepare to get it back. A Bills fan has no room to talk about another team's OL. Don't like it? Too bad.

[Mudflap1]

Re: Ronnie Brown not looking too good.

You want to talk smack, prepare to get it back. A Bills fan has no room to talk about another team's OL. Don't like it? Too bad.

Yeah, but you're on our turf. Again, if this was on finheaven.com, I'd expect the same rabid response.

Don't like it? Too bad.

Jon

[FinFaninBuffalo]

Re: Ronnie Brown not looking too good.

ding ding ding, we have a winner! And it only took two sentences. compared to other peeps' paragraphs

The lengthy reponses were to the ridiculous smack talk of some of the Bills fans. This is from my third post in this thread:

The Fins are making an attempt also. There will be at least two new starters on the OL. All 5 positions will likely have different starters next season. Both teams have something to prove on the OL.

Reasonable posts get reasonable reponses.

[mikemac2001]

Re: Ronnie Brown not looking too good.

Ronnie Brown sucks