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Thread: 9/11 - What convinced you?

  1. #121
    Jimmy Crack Corn Spartacus's Avatar
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    Re: 9/11 - What convinced you?

    Quote Originally Posted by jdaltroy5 View Post
    "But once again, if you ditch the defense attorney routine and ask again, you may find I'll be happy to discuss possible alternative scenarios."

    "Ok then, can we at least start with the agreement that two planes hit the twin towers?


    1) Who was flying the planes that hit the twin towers?
    2) What caused the North and South towers to collapse? What caused Tower 7 to collapse?
    3) What struck the Pentagon? If it was Flight 77, who was flying it? If it wasn't, where did Flight 77 go?
    4) What happened in Shanksville, PA? Was it Flight 93? If not, what was it? And if not, where did Flight 93 go?"

    "You just can't help yourself, can you counsellor? When did I agree to let you put me on the witness stand?"



    Let me guess, his questions were too attorney-like and are therefore irrelevant?
    His questions have been discussed dozens of times.

    Like I said to Illum, let's see you answer some questions.

    Do you think right-wing Americans are too stupid or too moral and upstanding to pull off 9/11?
    Last edited by Spartacus; 10-31-2012 at 10:43 PM.
    boisterous hubris, arrogance, self deception, conspiracy, mud slinging mixed with a heavy dose of self righteousness.

  2. #122
    Registered User MST3KBillsfan's Avatar
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    Re: 9/11 - What convinced you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    This thread is expressly for me to ask YOU questions. If you can do that sincerely, I'll answer yours.

    Answer this...

    Do you think people who make their fortunes killing people would shrink from killing people to ensure and increase those fortunes?
    Would it not be cheaper to know that some crazed psycho named Osama bin Laden hired 19 dupes to kill themselves so that you could make a fortune without having to spend a fortune?

  3. #123
    Registered User IlluminatusUIUC's Avatar
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    Re: 9/11 - What convinced you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    This thread is expressly for me to ask YOU questions. If you can do that sincerely, I'll answer yours.
    It was and I did. You asked what facts led me to believe the Al Qaeda theory of 9/11, so I picked out one part of the story and gave you some of them. Aside from an utterly irrelevant tangent about what constitutes "tracking" a plane, you ignored my answer. When gameboy posted his explanation, you refused to discuss that either.

    Given that you refused to have any meaningful discussion on the facts we presented, why should I follow you down your rabbit hole of loaded, abstract questions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    His questions have been discussed dozens of times.
    And you refused to answer them. Then and now. Months and months we've been at this, with this constant pathetic whine that "I can't discuss this because you're not SINCERE enough."

    http://www.buffalorange.com/showthre...=1#post3205866
    Because I decline to defend, I have nothing to share?

    Why should I share with someone that only wants me to present material he can force me to defend?
    That's the crux of it. You can't defend your conclusions, because you don't have any. After months, I finally thought I had a decent idea about what you thought happened that day. And then you disclaim all of it. When I ask for even the basic outline, I get more whining, more deflecting, more insults. There's nothing there and never has been.
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  4. #124
    Registered User jdaltroy5's Avatar
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    Re: 9/11 - What convinced you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    His questions have been discussed dozens of times.
    Not really. I've never actually read what you think definitively happened. You've given inane hypotheses that are easily challenged to which you keep your Criss Angel retort in your back pocket for.

    Like I said to Illum, let's see you answer some questions.
    I've answered every question that's ever been asked of me on this. I've been on this merry go round with you too many times. You ask a plethora of questions, then question my intent or ability (but rarely the content). Everything that discredits your theory (whatever it is that day) is because the person or independent agency is being dishonest. To top it all of you maintain your steadfast smugness of not answering questions because the person is either insincere or you don't have to explain how Criss Angel makes the elephant disappear.

    Do you think right-wing Americans are too stupid or too moral and upstanding to pull off 9/11?
    I think people like Bush and Cheney COULD do it. However, I don't know them, I've never met them, and I have no idea what they're like in real life.

    You say there's really no difference in allowing it to happen and planning it right? There's a HUGE difference. Not necessarily in the morality, but in the amount of people involved.

    If they allow it to happen, then how many people have to know about it? I don't know military protocol, but it would probably be a handful of people. They could even play it off and say that they didn't think the intelligence was solid enough to take action.

    If they plan it, there would have to be THOUSANDS of people involved that are ALL ok with killing thousands of Americans. Multiple people in the TSA, the CIA, department of homeland security, the Army, Air Force, demolition teams, WTC security, dozens of banks, cell phone companies, NIST, the pentagon, the list goes on and on.

    BESIDES the actual scientific facts, this ONE fact pretty much makes your whole argument moot.

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  6. #125
    Jimmy Crack Corn Spartacus's Avatar
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    Re: 9/11 - What convinced you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibby View Post
    Would it not be cheaper to know that some crazed psycho named Osama bin Laden hired 19 dupes to kill themselves so that you could make a fortune without having to spend a fortune?
    Answer the question please. Yes or no.

    And while you're at it, as a student of Russian history, why don`t you tell us all how Russia justified invading Finland during WW2.

  7. #126
    Jimmy Crack Corn Spartacus's Avatar
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    Re: 9/11 - What convinced you?

    Quote Originally Posted by IlluminatusUIUC View Post
    It was and I did. You asked what facts led me to believe the Al Qaeda theory of 9/11, so I picked out one part of the story and gave you some of them.
    You told me the planes were tracked. That`s it. BFD. If you think that`s an answer to the question, then you`re deluded. But I don`t think you`re deluded, just an insincere American willing to be stupid for his team.

    Quote Originally Posted by IlluminatusUIUC View Post
    Given that you refused to have any meaningful discussion on the facts we presented, why should I follow you down your rabbit hole of loaded, abstract questions?
    Not loaded or abstract at all. It goes directly to motive. If you think Bushco, along with all other Americans would find the idea of consciously killing their own citizens for power and profit utterly repugnant, then please say so.

    However, if you feel they are and were morally capable of doing it, but you just don`t think they could do it technically and so they didn`t, then say that. I`d like to know what you think the members of your tribe are capable of.

    Quote Originally Posted by IlluminatusUIUC View Post
    And you refused to answer them. Then and now. Months and months we've been at this, with this constant pathetic whine that "I can't discuss this because you're not SINCERE enough."
    As I said, I`ve answered them dozens of times before. And I never said I CAN`T discuss it because you`re not sincere. I said I won`t. And you`re still insincere, as the tone of your responses illustrates.

    Quote Originally Posted by IlluminatusUIUC View Post
    Uh, you forgot the rest of that post

    `Waste of time.

    Look, I could care less what you want to believe. I have no desire to convince you of anything. If I got upset with every person that wants to be a dumbass on this board, I'd be a wreck in under a day.

    So, if all you want to do is attack while I defend, find yourself another patsie.

    Homie don't play that.`


    I stand by it.

    Quote Originally Posted by IlluminatusUIUC View Post
    That's the crux of it. You can't defend your conclusions, because you don't have any.
    Not true at all. You just have to ask nicely.

    Quote Originally Posted by IlluminatusUIUC View Post
    After months, I finally thought I had a decent idea about what you thought happened that day. And then you disclaim all of it.
    I have no idea what you`re referring to. Please tell me about my so-called disclaimer.

    Quote Originally Posted by IlluminatusUIUC View Post
    When I ask for even the basic outline, I get more whining, more deflecting, more insults. There's nothing there and never has been.
    I won`t waste my time explaining something to someone who has zero desire to honestly entertain what I have to say. Life`s too short. Sorry.

  8. #127
    Jimmy Crack Corn Spartacus's Avatar
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    Re: 9/11 - What convinced you?

    Quote Originally Posted by jdaltroy5 View Post
    Not really. I've never actually read what you think definitively happened.
    Of course. It would be silly of me to declare what definitively happened, just as it would be silly of me to declare definitively how Criss Angell made the elephant disappear, because I JUST DON`T KNOW. Doesn`t mean I have to believe it`s magic though. I don`t know why you guys find this so hard to understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by jdaltroy5 View Post
    I think people like Bush and Cheney COULD do it. However, I don't know them, I've never met them, and I have no idea what they're like in real life.

    You say there's really no difference in allowing it to happen and planning it right? There's a HUGE difference. Not necessarily in the morality, but in the amount of people involved.
    So, you think SOME Americans would be morally capable of pulling this atrocity, just not technically capable.

    Thank you

  9. #128
    Registered User IlluminatusUIUC's Avatar
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    Re: 9/11 - What convinced you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    You told me the planes were tracked. That`s it. BFD. If you think that`s an answer to the question, then you`re deluded.
    I never said that was the answer to the question, it was one piece of it. It's a huge question.

    Not loaded or abstract at all.
    It absolutely was. Look at the question again:

    Do you think people who make their fortunes killing people would shrink from killing people to ensure and increase those fortunes?
    You use "people" three different times in the same sentence to refer to three completely different groups. You use a phrase, "killing people", which lends itself to multiple interpretations. Were they actually going out and committing murders or were they just selling addictive cigarettes? Because both of those things have been described as "killing" but it would change my answer.

    It goes directly to motive. If you think Bushco, along with all other Americans would find the idea of consciously killing their own citizens for power and profit utterly repugnant, then please say so.

    However, if you feel they are and were morally capable of doing it, but you just don`t think they could do it technically and so they didn`t, then say that. I`d like to know what you think the members of your tribe are capable of.
    "Bushco" is a word you made up to describe the conspiracy of indeterminate size and membership. That I can recall, you've only named 6 Americans: Bush Sr., Bush Jr., Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, and Neil Bush. Now, considering how cavalier they were about getting us into Iraq the second time, I'll say that the first 5 could maybe do that. I've never heard Neil Bush speak and couldn't pick him out of a line-up, so I have no idea about his moral compass. But obviously there would have to be a lot of other conspirators to accomplish what you claim, and I can't even speculate about them. Are there other Americans capable of that? Sure, I can believe that, I read The Valachi Papers. But are they part of the conspiracy? Do they have the necessary skills to accomplish these things? Who can say?




    I have no idea what you`re referring to. Please tell me about my so-called disclaimer.
    http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/sho...=1#post3704485

    I won`t waste my time explaining something to someone who has zero desire to honestly entertain what I have to say. Life`s too short. Sorry.
    Look, you have 65,000+ posts on the Range and 5000+ here. Let's not pretend that your time is too valuable to continue a thread you started.

    As I said, I`ve answered them dozens of times before.
    And then in the next post:
    It would be silly of me to declare what definitively happened, just as it would be silly of me to declare definitively how Criss Angell made the elephant disappear, because I JUST DON`T KNOW.
    That's what I've been getting at. You don't know what "definitively" happened and finally admitted as much. But the standard of proof you demand of the official story (proof beyond a reasonable doubt) is completely different from the standard you demand of the Bushco theory.

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  11. #129
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    Re: 9/11 - What convinced you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    Of course. It would be silly of me to declare what definitively happened, just as it would be silly of me to declare definitively how Criss Angell made the elephant disappear, because I JUST DON`T KNOW. Doesn`t mean I have to believe it`s magic though. I don`t know why you guys find this so hard to understand.
    Well that's convenient.



    So, you think SOME Americans would be morally capable of pulling this atrocity, just not technically capable.

    Thank you
    It has nothing to do with Americans. I think there are people from any country that are capable of killing their own. Some more than others. This isn't something that you can just approach anyone with. If you're the head of the CIA, you can't just walk up to a demolition expert and say, "Hey, do you want to help me blow up the WTC? Don't tell anyone though."

    Literally every single person that you asked would have to agree to do it, otherwise one whistleblower could foil the whole thing.

    Do you know how many people it would take to wire 250 floors with explosives? It takes a 12 man crew several months to wire up a 40 storey tower. And that's not even taking into consideration that they would have to operate under secrecy to not give away what they're doing. AND on top of that they would be using some mystery noiseless explosive.

    Did you know that the WTC is full of asbestos? You CANNOT remove ANY drywall without shutting down the entire floor and sealing it off. I know, I did a lighting study on the courthouse downtown and I'm doing one at Queen's Park right now. All the facilities managers informed me I wasn't allowed to touch the ceiling tiles because of the asbestos. Doing ANY construction on the WTC would set off alarm bells to the facilities managers, security, floor managers, and even some tenants. Not to mention you said that you think they blew up the whole thing from the ground up. That's roughly 250 floors. That's tens of thousands of people that they would have to fool or that would have to be on board.

    Just in the demolition alone they'd have to get a whole demolition team on board, the WTC security, the floor managers, and all the facility managers.

    Do I think all of them are capable of killing their own?

    *** no.
    Last edited by jdaltroy5; 11-02-2012 at 09:03 AM.

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    Re: 9/11 - What convinced you?

    I just don't bother getting involved in discussions regarding 9/11 anymore.

    If you don't believe the official story of what happened you're thought of as bat shiz crazy.

    I'm sure people in 1963 who didn't think Oswald shot Kennedy were bat shiz crazy too.

    For those of you who think government couldn't possibly pull off a coverup that kills it's own civilians to advance its own political agenda research Reichstag Fire. It's been done in the past and it most assuredly will be done again in the future.

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    Re: 9/11 - What convinced you?

    Quote Originally Posted by FunTimesYaY! View Post
    I just don't bother getting involved in discussions regarding 9/11 anymore.

    If you don't believe the official story of what happened you're thought of as bat shiz crazy.

    I'm sure people in 1963 who didn't think Oswald shot Kennedy were bat shiz crazy too.

    For those of you who think government couldn't possibly pull off a coverup that kills it's own civilians to advance its own political agenda research Reichstag Fire. It's been done in the past and it most assuredly will be done again in the future.
    Getting involved in discussions requires theories or facts that can be legitimately claimed. Simply saying some entity is capable of something isn't a discussion.

    I specifically remember you claiming that United 93 landed in Cleveland. I remember responding to that by linking to a story hat explained that some reporter in Ohio admitted to reporting that error, and linking you to the front page of the Cleveland Plain Dealer of 12 Sep that showed the actual 767 that landed in Cleveland, and it was a Delta flight.

    It is those kinds of claims that come up and are blatantly false. To discuss something, you have to have a case.
    That case has never been successfully pursued, because it doesn't exist.
    Capability does not cause an event, and events, especially massive events, leave an awful lot of evidence.

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    Re: 9/11 - What convinced you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    As I've stated before, at it's heart, Sept 11/01 was a mass homicide.

    There are two main theories about who the perpetrators were and their motives.

    The official American conspiracy theory states that 19 Arabs under the direction and leadership of Osama Bin Laden were responsible and their motive was they hate America for it's freedoms.

    The un-official anti-American conspiracy theory, although there are many permutations, states that 9/11 was an American/British/Israeli/Pakistani intelligence operation with the motive being money and political power.

    So, since we've spent countless hours and written tens of thousands of words discussing the anti-American conspiracy theory, then why don't we approach it from the other side for a change?

    In that case, I'd like to ask all of you that have chimed in on the implausibility of conspiracy theorists and conspiracy theories in general to tell me why you support the official conspiracy theory and what pieces of evidence convinced you beyond a reasonable doubt that OBL and Al Qaeda and ONLY OBL and Al Qaeda were responsible.

    Now, I will warn you that I've asked this question before a number of times and have yet to have ANYONE give me a sensible answer.

    But maybe this time it will be different, although by Einstein's measure I'd be crazy to expect anything different.

    You never know.
    Bush sitting there like a dope when he was told, with no reaction, told me that he knew it was coming. something that major would cause a reaction IMMEDIATELY.
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    Re: 9/11 - What convinced you?

    Quote Originally Posted by SABURZFAN View Post
    Bush sitting there like a dope when he was told, with no reaction, told me that he knew it was coming. something that major would cause a reaction IMMEDIATELY.
    I couldn't agree with ya more man!! To keep sitting there after being told "America is under attack" is unbelievable, unless he expected it, imho! I guess there's always the possibility that since Bush is so weak minded maybe he really was just paralyzed, but honestly I doubt it.

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    Re: 9/11 - What convinced you?

    Quote Originally Posted by gameboy View Post
    Getting involved in discussions requires theories or facts that can be legitimately claimed. Simply saying some entity is capable of something isn't a discussion.

    I specifically remember you claiming that United 93 landed in Cleveland. I remember responding to that by linking to a story hat explained that some reporter in Ohio admitted to reporting that error, and linking you to the front page of the Cleveland Plain Dealer of 12 Sep that showed the actual 767 that landed in Cleveland, and it was a Delta flight.

    It is those kinds of claims that come up and are blatantly false. To discuss something, you have to have a case.
    That case has never been successfully pursued, because it doesn't exist.
    Capability does not cause an event, and events, especially massive events, leave an awful lot of evidence.
    The problem is it was reported on 9/11 that UA 93 landed in Cleveland. It was reported that the plane(s) that landed in Hopkins that day landed on different runways. People were taken to different locations for interviews. There were eyewitnesses that saw both happen.

    Now you're right, it could have been erroneous reporting the day it occurred. But instead of anyone ever refuting any of what occurred in Cleveland, it's just been brushed to the side like it doesn't matter.

    I mean seriously, you're talking witnesses who saw two different things. A mayor that reported two different things. Airport people who reported two different things. And the AP who straight out reported UA 93 landed there after allegedly speaking with United.

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    Re: 9/11 - What convinced you?

    This Cleveland thing goes nowhere, and there are no witnesses who saw anything different than what happened.

    A Delta 767 landed at Hopkins. It's picture was printed on the top fold of the Cleveland Plain Dealer the day after.

    Nobody was taken anywhere to be "interviewed," in any manner that related to terrorism.

    Landing on different runways is a meaningless canard.

    It was erroneous, and the woman who reported it admitted she was either wrong or mis-quoted.
    There is nothing there. United 93 crashed in PA. I's voice recorder and data recorder were recovered. There are scores of witnesses.
    You can't sneak a 767 into Cleveland, nor hide it's crew/passengers.

    But....That is just part of this ridiculous conspiracy nonsense. It never ends, but there isn't a single bit of evidence that offers any support.

    Regarding American 77, the one that hit the Pentagon, they were friends of mine.
    I can assure you they are dead, and I can assure you exactly where they died.
    Last edited by gameboy; 11-03-2012 at 02:38 PM.

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    It's soooo embarrassing YardRat's Avatar
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    Re: 9/11 - What convinced you?

    Quote Originally Posted by SABURZFAN View Post
    Bush sitting there like a dope when he was told, with no reaction, told me that he knew it was coming. something that major would cause a reaction IMMEDIATELY.
    Quote Originally Posted by denverboz View Post
    I couldn't agree with ya more man!! To keep sitting there after being told "America is under attack" is unbelievable, unless he expected it, imho! I guess there's always the possibility that since Bush is so weak minded maybe he really was just paralyzed, but honestly I doubt it.
    Yes because panicking in an elementary school classroom with the press present while the immediate area and 'escape' route are secured by the secret service would be a much more appropriate reaction.

    Long you live and high you fly And smiles you'll give and tears you'll cry And all you touch and all you see Is all your life will ever be.

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    Re: 9/11 - What convinced you?

    Quote Originally Posted by YardRat View Post
    Yes because panicking in an elementary school classroom with the press present while the immediate area and 'escape' route are secured by the secret service would be a much more appropriate reaction.
    Dude, no ones saying he had to "panic"! A true leader would not have panicked. A true leader would have calmly got up and excused himself, saying he had important business he had to attend to and left.

    To be told the country is under attack and to keep sitting there just don't jibe. He's the leader of the country for christ sake , he had no idea (supposedly) at that point exactly what was going down, it could have been a nuclear attack for all he knew at that point!!!

    Sorry dude, but if someone came up to me at work (or wherever) and told me my wife or child was just in a very serious accident, or had been shot, or whatever, I would not just keep sitting there. Maybe you would, I don't know.

    To me the look on his face said "Oh ****! It's going down"!

  22. Post thanked by:

    mysticsoto (11-05-2012)

  23. #138
    Registered User MST3KBillsfan's Avatar
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    Re: 9/11 - What convinced you?

    What convinced me? Simple, Frederick Augustus Voigt's expose in the Manchester Guardian on December 3 and December 6, 1926 regarding Germany's very illegal military partnership program with the Soviet Union. Oh hell, Voigt pointed it out, the German parliament SDs complained, and nobody did anything to stop it even though they knew full well what was going on. The Americans ignored it because it was over there, England had to focus on the problems of empire, not to mention a very strong pacifist movement, and France had gotten what it wanted out of Locarno. Bottom line is just because you know something is happening or is going to happen doesn't mean that you do anything about it. Sometimes its just because you lack imagination. LIHOP is the maximum conspiracy our government is guilty of, I think looking back at similar events in history that it could also very well be let it happen because of red tape and lack of imagination.

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    Re: 9/11 - What convinced you?

    Another thing that has often crossed my mind, is that after the cold war was over, the MIC needed another enemy to keep all the cash flowing to them. So they teamed up with the neocons, filled the Supreme Court with their pawns in order to steal the 2000 election and instill Cheney and his hawks, made the muslims the enemy and bingo! A $700 Billion dollar defense budget and an enemy that will be around for a long long time, ensuring massive profits for the MIC. Nice!

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    Spartacus (11-03-2012)

  26. #140
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    Re: 9/11 - What convinced you?

    Quote Originally Posted by SABURZFAN View Post
    Bush sitting there like a dope when he was told, with no reaction, told me that he knew it was coming. something that major would cause a reaction IMMEDIATELY.
    he knew something was coming. he was told attacks were being planned and he botched it. i dont think BUSHCO is responsible, but i think they knew and they fumbled. that said, i think its POSSIBLE it was an inside job, but i dont believe it was.

  27. Post thanked by:

    MST3KBillsfan (11-03-2012)

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