9/11 - What convinced you?

[Spartacus]

Another thing that has often crossed my mind, is that after the cold war was over, the MIC needed another enemy to keep all the cash flowing to them. So they teamed up with the neocons, filled the Supreme Court with their pawns in order to steal the 2000 election and instill Cheney and his hawks, made the muslims the enemy and bingo! A $700 Billion dollar defense budget and an enemy that will be around for a long long time, ensuring massive profits for the MIC. Nice!

You HAVE been paying attention!

[Spartacus]

Regarding American 77, the one that hit the Pentagon, they were friends of mine.
I can assure you they are dead, and I can assure you exactly where they died.

Really?

How can you assure us?

[Spartacus]

Bush sitting there like a dope when he was told, with no reaction, told me that he knew it was coming. something that major would cause a reaction IMMEDIATELY.

Yup.

[Spartacus]

Well that's convenient.

Convenience has nothing to do with it. It's the truth.

It has nothing to do with Americans. I think there are people from any country that are capable of killing their own. Some more than others. This isn't something that you can just approach anyone with. If you're the head of the CIA, you can't just walk up to a demolition expert and say, "Hey, do you want to help me blow up the WTC? Don't tell anyone though."

Literally every single person that you asked would have to agree to do it, otherwise one whistleblower could foil the whole thing.

Do you know how many people it would take to wire 250 floors with explosives? It takes a 12 man crew several months to wire up a 40 storey tower. And that's not even taking into consideration that they would have to operate under secrecy to not give away what they're doing. AND on top of that they would be using some mystery noiseless explosive.

Did you know that the WTC is full of asbestos? You CANNOT remove ANY drywall without shutting down the entire floor and sealing it off. I know, I did a lighting study on the courthouse downtown and I'm doing one at Queen's Park right now. All the facilities managers informed me I wasn't allowed to touch the ceiling tiles because of the asbestos. Doing ANY construction on the WTC would set off alarm bells to the facilities managers, security, floor managers, and even some tenants. Not to mention you said that you think they blew up the whole thing from the ground up. That's roughly 250 floors. That's tens of thousands of people that they would have to fool or that would have to be on board.

Just in the demolition alone they'd have to get a whole demolition team on board, the WTC security, the floor managers, and all the facility managers.

Do I think all of them are capable of killing their own?

Fck no.

In other words, you admit that there are people within the American power structure capable of ordering ordering 9/11, but since you can't figure out how it could be done, they couldn't have done it?

Is that a correct assessment of your position?

[JATMtheJATM]

Really?

How can you assure us?

they were friends of his, correct? do you really want him to relive something like that, just to make a point in a petty internet argument? just let this one go.

[Spartacus]

I never said that was the answer to the question, it was one piece of it. It's a huge question.

You said you answered my question. Now you admit you didn't. Thank you.

It absolutely was. Look at the question again:

You use "people" three different times in the same sentence to refer to three completely different groups. You use a phrase, "killing people", which lends itself to multiple interpretations. Were they actually going out and committing murders or were they just selling addictive cigarettes? Because both of those things have been described as "killing" but it would change my answer.

You are quibbling. Smokers, like drug addicts and the obese kill themselves. I am talking about people who make their livings in the business of actually killing, or aiding and abetting the killing of other human beings, whatever the stated motivation.

I'll say that the first 5 could maybe do that[/B]....

Neil Bush is Fredo, a nobody, but thank you for admitting the first five are capable of mass-murdering your citizens.

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/sho...=1#post3704485

Look, you have 65,000+ posts on the Range and 5000+ here. Let's not pretend that your time is too valuable to continue a thread you started.

I have no problem continuing the thread, but I doubt it will be to your liking. In fact, I'd be disappointed if it was.

And then in the next post:

That's what I've been getting at. You don't know what "definitively" happened and finally admitted as much. But the standard of proof you demand of the official story (proof beyond a reasonable doubt) is completely different from the standard you demand of the Bushco theory.

Just because I decline to say how it definitively happened, which is impossible to know at this point, does not mean I have different standards of proof just because you say so.

I use the same standards of proof for everything.

I would say it's you, as an American, that is more likely to be biased on the subject.

Unless, of course, you think I hate America more than you love it.

[Spartacus]

they were friends of his, correct? do you really want him to relive something like that, just to make a point in a petty internet argument? just let this one go.

We've talked about this before...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Burlingame

So, since GB would need to run the DNA from the crash site himself to be sure his friend died in the crash, did he do that?

Or is there another reason he can "assure" us?

[Spartacus]

What convinced me? Simple, Frederick Augustus Voigt's expose in the Manchester Guardian on December 3 and December 6, 1926 regarding Germany's very illegal military partnership program with the Soviet Union. Oh hell, Voigt pointed it out, the German parliament SDs complained, and nobody did anything to stop it even though they knew full well what was going on. The Americans ignored it because it was over there, England had to focus on the problems of empire, not to mention a very strong pacifist movement, and France had gotten what it wanted out of Locarno. Bottom line is just because you know something is happening or is going to happen doesn't mean that you do anything about it. Sometimes its just because you lack imagination. LIHOP is the maximum conspiracy our government is guilty of, I think looking back at similar events in history that it could also very well be let it happen because of red tape and lack of imagination.

You didn't answer my question gibby.

The Winter war. What started it?

[YardRat]

Dude, no ones saying he had to "panic"! A true leader would not have panicked. A true leader would have calmly got up and excused himself, saying he had important business he had to attend to and left.

To be told the country is under attack and to keep sitting there just don't jibe. He's the leader of the country for christ sake , he had no idea (supposedly) at that point exactly what was going down, it could have been a nuclear attack for all he knew at that point!!!

Sorry dude, but if someone came up to me at work (or wherever) and told me my wife or child was just in a very serious accident, or had been shot, or whatever, I would not just keep sitting there. Maybe you would, I don't know.

To me the look on his face said "Oh ****! It's going down"!

Whether you agree with it or not, priority #1 for those in the immediate area is the safety and security of the POTUS, and that takes a couple of minutes to verify before being able to bug out. I see nothing unusual at all with this specific incident, and never have.

[denverboz]

Whether you agree with it or not, priority #1 for those in the immediate area is the safety and security of the POTUS, and that takes a couple of minutes to verify before being able to bug out. I see nothing unusual at all with this specific incident, and never have.

Perhaps. And I would probably give a lot less credence to any 9/11 conspiracy theories if it wasn't for the way Bush assumed office, which I firmly believe was a right wing coup of our govt, my main reason for such a belief stemming from the Supreme Courts little footnote in their decision in Bush v Gore stating that their decision could not be used as precedent!!!! It was like WTF! Seriously?? That's what you do!! Make decisions that establish precedent. First time the SCOTUS ever did that!! Had never been done before!!!!

There are other reasons for my suspicions, but that was the icing on the cake.

I'm still hoping for some karma for them (Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld) like seeing them try to go to a number of European countries that have explicitly stated they would be arrested and charged with war crimes if they came over there. That would be sweet!!!

[IlluminatusUIUC]

You said you answered my question. Now you admit you didn't. Thank you.

This is the sort of dishonest drivel I've come to expect of you. In any post, did I say that my list from the first page was a complete answer? No, because it isn't. It's 6 bulletpoints, 5 of which you ignored and the 6th you deliberately misinterpreted.

You are quibbling. Smokers, like drug addicts and the obese kill themselves. I am talking about people who make their livings in the business of actually killing, or aiding and abetting the killing of other human beings, whatever the stated motivation.

This is the sort of clarity that should have been in the initial question.

Neil Bush is Fredo, a nobody, but thank you for admitting the first five are capable of mass-murdering your citizens.

Neil Bush may indeed be a nobody, but he would still have to be just as morally bankrupt as the rest of the conspirators to go along with their scheme. Indeed, if you're sticking behind the whole 'Neil Bush allowed demolition crews to pre-wire the towers' theory then he's an integral part of the plan.

Just because I decline to say how it definitively happened, which is impossible to know at this point, does not mean I have different standards of proof just because you say so.

Of course it does. You've claimed a conspiracy that stretches back three decades based on little more than "Cui bono?" and challenge the official story by playing games about what constitutes "tracking" an aircraft, among others. Gameboy says he lost a colleague on Flight 77 and you want DNA evidence? Do you have any direct evidence of the things you say?

I would say it's you, as an American, that is more likely to be biased on the subject.

Unless, of course, you think I hate America more than you love it.

I think that's been clearly shown in this very thread. I admit that America has a lot of blood on its hands in the middle east, and many of the terrorists indeed have a legitimate grievance with us. You come back with the claim that Americans are racist dumbasses. Whose bias is showing again?

[JATMtheJATM]

We've talked about this before...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Burlingame

So, since GB would need to run the DNA from the crash site himself to be sure his friend died in the crash, did he do that?

Or is there another reason he can "assure" us?

so basically, because his friend was obliterated and thus no proof of his death could be found (body parts, ect) it must not have happened?

fact is, your obsession with 9-11 isnt on a personal level, but it is to someone here. your pursuit of truth doesnt trump human decency. let this one go.

[coastal]

so basically, because his friend was obliterated and thus no proof of his death could be found (body parts, ect) it must not have happened?

fact is, your obsession with 9-11 isnt on a personal level, but it is to someone here. your pursuit of truth doesnt trump human decency. let this one go.

**** that ****.

i remember when I called Seau selfish for offing himself and some douchebag showed up claiming to be his relative... all in an attempt to emotionally blackmail me into shutting up.

Typical American melodramatic crap.

[JATMtheJATM]

**** that ****.

i remember when I called Seau selfish for offing himself and some douchebag showed up claiming to be his relative... all in an attempt to emotionally blackmail me into shutting up.

Typical American melodramatic crap.

i dont agree with that at all. if someone here really did lose friends in this event, i think its best to let that one go. shiva lacks empathy and this is just another case. when it comes to asking someone to prove their friends died, i think its best to let that one go.

[MST3KBillsfan]

You didn't answer my question gibby.

The Winter war. What started it?

The Soviet desire to spread the revolution across Europe and follow up the stunning diplomatic victory they got with the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact that gave them part of Rumania, half of Poland, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithunia, and a desire to protect Leningrad, to gain natural resources, and to solidify their foothold on the Baltic.

[gameboy]

"Nuclear DNA testing (along with dental records and fingerprints) of the remains from the victims aboard American Airline (AA) Flight 77 and within the Pentagon was useful for identifying 178 of the 183 victims. Five missing individuals (four within the Pentagon and one aboard the airplane) could not be identified due to lack of biological material from the crash. Five remaining nuclear STR profiles were obtained from the crash site that did not match any references for the victims. These profiles were thought to represent the terrorists aboard the flight. The 40 victims aboard the United Airline (UA) Flight 93 that crashed near Shanksville, PA, were also identified by nuclear DNA testing, dental records, and fingerprinting. Four nonmatching nuclear DNA profiles were also obtained from the crash site and again tentatively ascribed to the terrorists.
The DNA results strengthened the hypothesis that two of the terrorists were brothers, as indicated by other
evidence. Two of the terrorist STR profiles aboard the AA Flight 77 gave a sibling index greater than 500. To further test the hypothesis of maternal relatedness, AFDIL sequenced the HVI and HVII regions of mtDNA for these individuals. The sequences generated did match in HVI and HVII, which is consistent with a maternal relationship between the two men."

http://911myths.com/index.php/Hijackers_DNA_profiles

As I said, the victims were identified.

I flew that trip for two years, 99 and 2000. AA 77 to LA and AA 76 back to Dulles, until I got so bored I took a job as a check captain. I ran into those folks quite a bit then as well. I knew the flight attendants very well and I had flown quite a few times with the copilot, who was killed in the cabin when he went back to investigate the trouble. That is the point that they entered the cockpit and killed Burlingame, who was the captain.

Their DNA was found at the Pentagon. Their families submitted samples.
I can assure you they are dead.

After 11 years of reading nothing but BS from conspiracy folks, some interesting, most absolutely crazy, and watching them dismiss evidence, you would think that they would be able to come up with something. That has never happened.

By the way-I want to add this.
There is a vein in this thread about Bush "knowing" and letting this happen.
As I said, there were two separate warnings that were issued that something may be up, but both mentioned Europe as the location.
People here lay this on Bush. I want you to know that similar warnings came out during the Clinton Administration. This was nothing new, and it was no different on these occasions.

[MST3KBillsfan]

Answer the question please. Yes or no.

And while you're at it, as a student of Russian history, why don`t you tell us all how Russia justified invading Finland during WW2.

Why would Stalin have to justify anything? No opponents at home, they're dead and his spin doctors can say whatever the **** they want. As for foreign policy, well ****, he got the Non Agression Pact with Germany and England and France were too busy fighting Hitler and preparing to fight Hitler to care about Stalin. Why would Stalin have to justify anything to anyone? He didn't. In the late 1930s Stalin's foreign policy was like that of a honey badger, he does whatever he wants.

[MST3KBillsfan]

"Nuclear DNA testing (along with dental records and fingerprints) of the remains from the victims aboard American Airline (AA) Flight 77 and within the Pentagon was useful for identifying 178 of the 183 victims. Five missing individuals (four within the Pentagon and one aboard the airplane) could not be identified due to lack of biological material from the crash. Five remaining nuclear STR profiles were obtained from the crash site that did not match any references for the victims. These profiles were thought to represent the terrorists aboard the flight. The 40 victims aboard the United Airline (UA) Flight 93 that crashed near Shanksville, PA, were also identified by nuclear DNA testing, dental records, and fingerprinting. Four nonmatching nuclear DNA profiles were also obtained from the crash site and again tentatively ascribed to the terrorists.
The DNA results strengthened the hypothesis that two of the terrorists were brothers, as indicated by other
evidence. Two of the terrorist STR profiles aboard the AA Flight 77 gave a sibling index greater than 500. To further test the hypothesis of maternal relatedness, AFDIL sequenced the HVI and HVII regions of mtDNA for these individuals. The sequences generated did match in HVI and HVII, which is consistent with a maternal relationship between the two men."

http://911myths.com/index.php/Hijackers_DNA_profiles

As I said, the victims were identified.

I flew that trip for two years, 99 and 2000. AA 77 to LA and AA 76 back to Dulles, until I got so bored I took a job as a check captain. I ran into those folks quite a bit then as well. I knew the flight attendants very well and I had flown quite a few times with the copilot, who was killed in the cabin when he went back to investigate the trouble. That is the point that they entered the cockpit and killed Burlingame, who was the captain.

Their DNA was found at the Pentagon. Their families submitted samples.
I can assure you they are dead.

After 11 years of reading nothing but BS from conspiracy folks, some interesting, most absolutely crazy, and watching them dismiss evidence, you would think that they would be able to come up with something. That has never happened.

By the way-I want to add this.
There is a vein in this thread about Bush "knowing" and letting this happen.
As I said, there were two separate warnings that were issued that something may be up, but both mentioned Europe as the location.
People here lay this on Bush. I want you to know that similar warnings came out during the Clinton Administration. This was nothing new, and it was no different on these occasions.

I dunno man, I honestly always liked Shivy's portrayal of Cheney and Bush as Dr. Blofeld and the US Government as SPECTRE. Its great science fiction, although it does show derangement on his part.

[Spartacus]

Why would Stalin have to justify anything? No opponents at home, they're dead and his spin doctors can say whatever the **** they want. As for foreign policy, well ****, he got the Non Agression Pact with Germany and England and France were too busy fighting Hitler and preparing to fight Hitler to care about Stalin. Why would Stalin have to justify anything to anyone? He didn't. In the late 1930s Stalin's foreign policy was like that of a honey badger, he does whatever he wants.

Why are you dancing? You know very well what I'm talking about.

[Spartacus]

Their DNA was found at the Pentagon.

Really? How do YOU know that?