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Thread: 9/11 - What convinced you?

  1. #381
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    Re: 9/11 - What convinced you?

    Quote Originally Posted by IlluminatusUIUC View Post
    You posted admitted rank speculation by a guy using data out of a newspaper article vs. an NTSB report using the actual radar and flight recorder data. The fact that you consider there to even be a dispute shows how off-base this whole discussion is.
    I posted a diagram of a flight path that is different in no relevant way from the one you wish to use. Fine, we'll use yours. IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE. The fact is that gameboy is claiming that all the pilot had to do was "aim" the plane at the Pentagon. But he didn't, he did a big descending turn when the easiest thing for him to do was point the nose of the plane at the Pentagon and fly straight in. There was NOTHING preventing him from doing so. The anomaly is not some question about whether he came in from the west or the north, the question is WHY did he make an unnecessary maneuver which could have risked his objective, ie. hitting the Pentagon?

    Capish?

    Quote Originally Posted by IlluminatusUIUC View Post
    They're the same flight path. One is the complete flightpath from origin to crash and the second is a zoom in on the final turn. There's no "choosing" here.
    We are talking about the final turn. So, as I said, irrelevant, unless you want to waste more time quibbling.

    Quote Originally Posted by IlluminatusUIUC View Post
    Well, looks like the jig is up. Colombo here figured it out.

    I sure wish I hadn't squandered all that money and power though.

    Let that be a lesson to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by IlluminatusUIUC View Post
    Which is?

    The 9/11 commission report.

    Quote Originally Posted by IlluminatusUIUC View Post
    BTW, I love how you completely ignored the second half of my post about the DNA evidence. The fact that I found information that you were so certain was classified in 20 minutes of googling and reading articles has to burn.
    I ignored it because it was also irrelevant.

    Of course the gov't will provide mouthpieces who "supervised" or were "part of a team" or were longtime CIO's (Chief Information Officer).

    "Oh, but shiva, you said something and according to my misinterpretation, you were wrong! You said the names of the people who processed the evidence were probably classified! But I googled and found names! Names shiva, names! So there!"

    So what? Are you going to go after my punctuation next? Jesus.
    boisterous hubris, arrogance, self deception, conspiracy, mud slinging mixed with a heavy dose of self righteousness.

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    Re: 9/11 - What convinced you?

    Quote Originally Posted by gameboy View Post
    You didn't need to spend the time. You could have just asked me, and I would have told you who did the analysis.

    There was a great deal of cooperation between the families, our union and the company over this issue. An immense amount of care and respect by the folks at the lab level to not only identify the victims, but also to separate those remains from the murderers. The technicians who did this are not anonymous.
    The family, your union and the company can NOT verify the incorruptibility of the evidence trail. If you think they can other than just because of who they are, then please enlighten me. However, until you can, the DNA "evidence" isn't proof of anything, it's just a claim.

    And that's not an opinion, it's a FACT.

    Quote Originally Posted by gameboy View Post
    Regarding the right turn and the speculation by the linked data, it can be explained quite easily. The link you provided has an Air Force navigator speculating. Why not just ask someone who doesn't have to speculate?

    In these cockpits, you cannot see whats under the other side. The turn was made to the right because that's where the murderer who was aiming it was seated. He would not be able to see what he was aiming at if he was turning left.
    Duh! Thank you Capt Obvious. Too bad whether he made a left or right turn is irrelevant. The question is why make a turn at all? Why not just, as you suggest, drop the nose and aim the plane straight at the building? It wasn't necessary and added needless complication putting his objective at risk.

    Quote Originally Posted by gameboy View Post
    Why was he in the right seat? Because there was a dead body and an awful amount of blood in the left seat.
    Nice touch, but also irrelevant. Bodies can be moved and I doubt that guys planning to commit mass murder would be squeamish about getting a little blood on their clothes. But the image is useful for loading the argument, isn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by gameboy View Post
    This quote from Spartacus sums up the entire issue, because he demonstrates complete ignorance.

    "And for the life of me I don't know how you "aim" at a stationary object on the ground while you're pulling several gees in a 270 degree descending turn..."

    Of course you don't understand, but that is exactly how airplanes are flown, when they are being flown visually. That is exactly how bombs are dropped when there is no air defense. That is the easiest way to do things.
    Why do you assume I don't know how airplanes are flown, or are you just playing to the peanut gallery again? "Hmmm, gameboy is a pilot and shiva is just a film-maker so I guess if gameboy says shiva doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to airplanes, he must be telling the truth!" Sorry, but if I tell you movie film is made from cream cheese and you say it isn't, am I right because I worked in the business and you're wrong because you're an ignorant pilot? Please...

    Quote Originally Posted by gameboy View Post
    270 degrees is a meaningless number. It could have been any degree of turn. Would 360 impress you more? 180 less?
    "Gees," is not a word. G's is how it is termed, and I doubt it was "several," it was probably about 1.5.
    More irrelevant quibbling.

    Quote Originally Posted by gameboy View Post
    By the way. You don't seem to understand the speed variance in this event. It wasn't going that fast until he jammed the thrust levers to the stops in the last portion of this ram job.
    That's why he hit the ground first. He was simply unable to control the pitch of the airplane at the speed he was travelling.
    Really? How fast is "that fast"?

    And when you say "hit the ground first", what are you saying?

    2 feet, 20 feet, 200 feet, 2000 feet?

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    Re: 9/11 - What convinced you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    I posted a diagram of a flight path that is different in no relevant way from the one you wish to use. Fine, we'll use yours. IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE. The fact is that gameboy is claiming that all the pilot had to do was "aim" the plane at the Pentagon. But he didn't, he did a big descending turn when the easiest thing for him to do was point the nose of the plane at the Pentagon and fly straight in. There was NOTHING preventing him from doing so. The anomaly is not some question about whether he came in from the west or the north, the question is WHY did he make an unnecessary maneuver which could have risked his objective, ie. hitting the Pentagon?

    Capish?
    We are talking about the final turn. So, as I said, irrelevant, unless you want to waste more time
    What I like about these threads is that the more you post, the more you get completely exposed.

    The more detail that is revealed, the more you reveal your ignorance.

    Specifically, in your quoted post, you bring up argument that questions why an unnecessary turn was completed.
    The reason is that the nut who was flying it didn't have the experience to hit a building without, first, finding it visually. Someone who is trying to hit a target would never submit himself to extra time against potential defenses.

    If it was me, or someone else who actually knew what he was doing, that turn would have never occurred. You attack targets straight on, with minimum exposure.

    The very turn that you seem so enamored with is bold faced evidence that whoever did it didn't know what he was doing.
    The fact that he hit the ground prior, is proof that he didn't have the skill to handle that 757.

    By the way. There is no reason to remove a body from the left seat. So, they didn't.
    Last edited by gameboy; 11-10-2012 at 03:17 PM.

  4. #384
    Registered User IlluminatusUIUC's Avatar
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    Re: 9/11 - What convinced you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    I posted a diagram of a flight path that is different in no relevant way from the one you wish to use. Fine, we'll use yours. IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE. The fact is that gameboy is claiming that all the pilot had to do was "aim" the plane at the Pentagon. But he didn't, he did a big descending turn when the easiest thing for him to do was point the nose of the plane at the Pentagon and fly straight in. There was NOTHING preventing him from doing so. The anomaly is not some question about whether he came in from the west or the north, the question is WHY did he make an unnecessary maneuver which could have risked his objective, ie. hitting the Pentagon?
    Because he was 8000 feet up and trying to acquire his target visually. If he had just nosed straight over he could easily have overshot the building. I still don't see how it's relevant. And I notice that you are using the "Why didn't they just do this more sensible, obvious thing?" argument that you never accepted when I applied it to the supposed conspirators. Again, convenient.

    FWIW, I haven't seen anything proving that the Pentagon was his main choice. For all I've seen, he could have been looking for the White House and decided on the Pentagon because it's so enormous and easily recognizable from the air.

    We are talking about the final turn. So, as I said, irrelevant, unless you want to waste more time quibbling.
    Of course it's relevant. You post up complete speculative crap that, once debunked, is now suddenly irrelevant? The fact is, you couldn't be bothered to take 30 seconds and think about where Flight 77 was coming from and why it would be so implausible for it to be approaching from the north. You based your whole claim on how supposedly difficult it would be to make a high-speed turn into the wall of the building, without the slightest scrap of knowledge about aviation. That's what makes these threads so ridiculous and circular.
    The 9/11 commission report.
    You wanna be more specific? It's a 500 page document.

    I ignored it because it was also irrelevant.

    Of course the gov't will provide mouthpieces who "supervised" or were "part of a team" or were longtime CIO's (Chief Information Officer).

    "Oh, but shiva, you said something and according to my misinterpretation, you were wrong! You said the names of the people who processed the evidence were probably classified! But I googled and found names! Names shiva, names! So there!"

    So what? Are you going to go after my punctuation next? Jesus.
    This entire thread is you throwing up one false, misleading, or BS claim after another, getting proven wrong, and then moving on to something else and claiming the previous thing was irrelevant.

    You claimed the technicians were not "unimpeachable," that their status as government employees gave them motive to lie about a mass murder, and that their identities were probably classified. Well, their identities are clearly not classified, as I found in <30 minutes a fact you apparently haven't discovered in your 11 years of research. And then I went the extra mile and posted up their contact information.

    So how's about it, Shiva? You've been accusing and sniping at a faceless conspiracy for 11 years. I provided you with an actual means to speak to people you claim are potential conspirators in one of the worst crimes in history. Do you have the integrity to level these accusations directly? I think you don't, and the fact that you're trying to change the subject is reinforcing that with each post.
    Billszone 2013 Prediction Contest winner!

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    Re: 9/11 - What convinced you?

    Quote Originally Posted by gameboy View Post
    Specifically, in your quoted post, you bring up argument that questions why an unnecessary turn was completed.
    The reason is that the nut who was flying it didn't have the experience to hit a building without, first, finding it visually. Someone who is trying to hit a target would never submit himself to extra time against potential defense.
    So why take the time to make a big looping turn when, as you claim, he wasn't going very fast?

    Especially when the Pentagon, THE WORLD'S LARGEST OFFICE BUILDING" isn't that hard to spot?

    You see it, adjust your heading, push the nose down and boom.

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    Re: 9/11 - What convinced you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    So why take the time to make a big looping turn when, as you claim, he wasn't going very fast?

    Especially when the Pentagon, THE WORLD'S LARGEST OFFICE BUILDING" isn't that hard to spot?

    You see it, adjust your heading, push the nose down and boom.
    Is this a breakthrough?

    Is your question an acknowledgement that you are going to comprehend reality?

    In that vein, I'll answer it.

    The airplane was going pretty fast. Not nearly as fast as when it hit, but pretty fast.

    Given the altitude it was at, you would see the Pentagon, regardless of how big it is, for a few minutes at best, if you knew what you were doing.

    He didn't.

    So, he flew over the area, having spotted the Pentagon, and then pointed at it,turning off the autopilot at the time he figured he needed.

    If this was a conspiracy, that would not have happened.
    It would have been attacked straight on.
    Easy to do if you know the area.

    These were goofs flying these things, and there is no way that a gov conspiracy would have done it this way.

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    Re: 9/11 - What convinced you?

    Quote Originally Posted by IlluminatusUIUC View Post
    Because he was 8000 feet up and trying to acquire his target visually. If he had just nosed straight over he could easily have overshot the building.
    You're arguing "ease"? Please. It would be much easier to **** up doing what he did rather than just aiming the plane at the building as gameboy said. It would also be faster, since he would be worried about being intercepted. Unless he wasn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by IlluminatusUIUC View Post
    FWIW, I haven't seen anything proving that the Pentagon was his main choice. For all I've seen, he could have been looking for the White House and decided on the Pentagon because it's so enormous and easily recognizable from the air.
    Indeed. So what?

    Quote Originally Posted by IlluminatusUIUC View Post
    Of course it's relevant. You post up complete speculative crap that, once debunked, is now suddenly irrelevant? The fact is, you couldn't be bothered to take 30 seconds and think about where Flight 77 was coming from and why it would be so implausible for it to be approaching from the north. You based your whole claim on how supposedly difficult it would be to make a high-speed turn into the wall of the building, without the slightest scrap of knowledge about aviation. That's what makes these threads so ridiculous and circular.
    We were talking about the turn, not the approach direction, which is irrelevant.

    And why do you presume I haven't "the slightest scrap of knowledge about aviation"? seems kind of hyperbolic, don't you think?

    After all, since you're obviously not trying to impress me and gameboy is already on board so no use trying to impress him, don't you think you should try to tone down the schoolyard taunts in an effort to impress the others that are on the fence? They're the jury and generally juries aren't impressed by bully-boy tactics.

    Quote Originally Posted by IlluminatusUIUC View Post
    You wanna be more specific? It's a 500 page document.
    All about 19 goofs talked into committing suicide in the service of Osama Bin Laden. Doesn't mean OBL wasn't acting in the service of someone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by IlluminatusUIUC View Post
    This entire thread is you throwing up one false, misleading, or BS claim after another, getting proven wrong, and then moving on to something else and claiming the previous thing was irrelevant.
    It IS interesting how, even though the thread title is asking YOU to prove your claims, you refuse to do so while. once again, demanding I play the "Give me evidence - that's not evidence!" game with you. It's exactly what I knew would happen though, because it happens EVERY TIME I ask people to tell me why they believe the OCT. They can't and so cover up their inability to make a reasonable case with bluster, insults and bull****. EVERY TIME.

    Quote Originally Posted by IlluminatusUIUC View Post
    You claimed the technicians were not "unimpeachable," that their status as government employees gave them motive to lie about a mass murder, and that their identities were probably classified. Well, their identities are clearly not classified, as I found in <30 minutes a fact you apparently haven't discovered in your 11 years of research. And then I went the extra mile and posted up their contact information.
    You didn't find the technicians, you found the mouthpieces. Nowhere does it say they were the technicians. Try again.

    Quote Originally Posted by IlluminatusUIUC View Post
    So how's about it, Shiva? You've been accusing and sniping at a faceless conspiracy for 11 years. I provided you with an actual means to speak to people you claim are potential conspirators in one of the worst crimes in history. Do you have the integrity to level these accusations directly? I think you don't, and the fact that you're trying to change the subject is reinforcing that with each post.
    Huh?

    I've NEVER refused to talk to anyone about the subject. Why would I? I'm the guy that egged Berger-boy into bringing JREF over, fully expecting to take them on single-handedly. So, if you, like gameboy, have people who want to contribute to the discussion, then bring them on. You know where to find me.

    Oh, and as for my integrity, I will gladly take my reputation over yours.

    I am well aware of who appreciates me and who doesn't.

    And why.

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    Re: 9/11 - What convinced you?

    Quote Originally Posted by gameboy View Post
    fast. Not nearly as fast as when it hit, but pretty fast.

    Given the altitude it was at, you would see the Pentagon, regardless of how big it is, for a few minutes at best, if you knew what you were doing.

    He didn't.

    So, he flew over the area, having spotted the Pentagon, and then pointed at it,turning off the autopilot at the time he figured he needed.
    Argue with Illum. This is the map he endorses...


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    Re: 9/11 - What convinced you?

    I'm in the Bill Maher camp with this issue.

    I'm obviously cynical where religion is concerned and I don't put it past a bunch of religious lunatics to blow **** up.

    And it's not an anti-Muslim thing. It's an anti-religion thing.

    After I read Jon Krakauer's book about Mormonism and it's history of violent faith, I was hell bent on seeing Mitt Romney get destroyed.

    I don't want those lunatics thinking their beliefs are valid. They're the fastest growing religion in the USA and it's all a horrible lie pulled off by a complete huckster less than 200 years ago.

    Joseph Smith was an evil con man.
    Last edited by JoeMama; 11-10-2012 at 04:25 PM.

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    Re: 9/11 - What convinced you?

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeMama View Post
    I'm in the Bill Maher camp with this issue.

    I'm obviously cynical where religion is concerned and I don't put it past a bunch of religious lunatics to blow **** up.

    And it's not an anti-Muslim thing. It's an anti-religion thing.
    Would you put it past one group of religious lunatics to try and frame another group of religious lunatics?

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    Re: 9/11 - What convinced you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    Would you put it past one group of religious lunatics to try and frame another group of religious lunatics?
    You know me, Sparty, it's all the same group of crazy in the end.

    If you believe in crazy invisible cloud people, why wouldn't you do insane things to validate your horrible beliefs?

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    Re: 9/11 - What convinced you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    Argue with Illum. This is the map he endorses...

    Can you make a point here?

    I sure don't get one, but if my suspicions are correct, you have demonstrated ignorance again.

    What is the point of this post?

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    Registered User IlluminatusUIUC's Avatar
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    Re: 9/11 - What convinced you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    You're arguing "ease"? Please. It would be much easier to **** up doing what he did rather than just aiming the plane at the building as gameboy said. It would also be faster, since he would be worried about being intercepted. Unless he wasn't.
    If you had read the NTSB report I linked, which you clearly haven't, you see that the entire maneuver from the start of the turn to the impact took less than four minutes. He'd already been flying the plane for over a half-hour, so taking the extra time to make sure he hit a high-value target seems perfectly plausible.

    Indeed. So what?
    It would explain the looping turn if he wanted to get low enough to spot a target and picked the Pentagon because, hey, there it is.

    We were talking about the turn, not the approach direction, which is irrelevant.
    It calls into question your sources, the weight you choose to give them, and the preconceptions you bring into these discussions.

    And why do you presume I haven't "the slightest scrap of knowledge about aviation"? seems kind of hyperbolic, don't you think?
    Because you haven't demonstrated any. You didn't know what constitutes "tracking" a plane, you suggested that it was plausible that these airliners dropped off radar and were replaced by another plane, you thought it was a difficult maneuver to do a wide descent turn, you suggested that the plane could be remote-controlled, and so on.
    After all, since you're obviously not trying to impress me and gameboy is already on board so no use trying to impress him, don't you think you should try to tone down the schoolyard taunts in an effort to impress the others that are on the fence? They're the jury and generally juries aren't impressed by bully-boy tactics.
    I'm well aware of your silly "contributions" to the subject on the Range.
    LOL! You didn't even read the thread, cuz if you did you would have read Berger-boy (JREF member and guy who invited his friends over) admit that I kicked their ass.

    They ran back to their odious site with their tails between their legs.
    Now, I realize that as a right-wing evangelical kook who believes in a Muslim conspiracy to install a world-wide caliphate,you would rather not say, but why not give it a try?
    Spineless centrist.
    You're such a bull****ter, but I can see where your contempt for your fellow citizens comes from.

    Alot of them ARE pretty stupid.
    Sorry, but I'm not gonna waste my time explaining why obvious bull**** is obvious bull**** for those that are either too stupid, or unwilling to understand.
    Why should I waste my time explaining why nonsense is nonsense for your benefit? Not even Jesus thinks we should cast our pearls before swine.
    And why do Americans swallow this crap? There's ONE BIG REASON. You're racists.
    But sure, let's all blame Muslims and go to WAR!

    Yeeee ha!
    Do you really think that intentional stupidity is some sort of moral high ground?
    I think that's enough. Shiva, spare what's left of your dignity and quit with the crying about insults. You give equally as well as you get.

    All about 19 goofs talked into committing suicide in the service of Osama Bin Laden. Doesn't mean OBL wasn't acting in the service of someone else.
    Right. So once again, you don't actually have any thing to point to. The 9/11 Commission failed to disprove every single conspiracy fantasy, and accordingly they must be plausible.

    It IS interesting how, even though the thread title is asking YOU to prove your claims, you refuse to do so while. once again, demanding I play the "Give me evidence - that's not evidence!" game with you. It's exactly what I knew would happen though, because it happens EVERY TIME I ask people to tell me why they believe the OCT. They can't and so cover up their inability to make a reasonable case with bluster, insults and bull****. EVERY TIME.
    Hint: All these things I'm posting are my evidence. The 9/11 commission could barely fit all their conclusions in a 500 page book, and you want me to write it all in a message board thread at once? Get real, guy. We can pick parts of it and talk about them, as we have, or you can keep crying that my answers are incomplete.

    You didn't find the technicians, you found the mouthpieces. Nowhere does it say they were the technicians. Try again.
    More failure to read the posted links: Again, http://www.cstl.nist.gov/div831/strb.../Edson2004.pdf
    Quote Originally Posted by Page 27/28
    During her tenure at AFDIL, she [Suni Edson] has also worked as a technician in the family reference group, an analyst in the mtDNA section, and participated in the DNA evidence collection team at Dover Air Force Base in response to the events of September 11, 2001.
    ...
    Throughout his [James Ross] career at the DNA registry, he has been actively involved in data management, specimen collection and the identification of remains from mass disasters, including...the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001 at the Pentagon and Shanksville, PA.
    ...
    She [Suzanne Barritt] has also participated in the collection and identification of remains from the attacks on the Pentagon and UA Flight 92 on September, 2001.
    Do you ever get tired of being proven wrong?

    Huh?

    I've NEVER refused to talk to anyone about the subject. Why would I? I'm the guy that egged Berger-boy into bringing JREF over, fully expecting to take them on single-handedly. So, if you, like gameboy, have people who want to contribute to the discussion, then bring them on. You know where to find me.
    What is one big difference between some poster at JREF and the technicians I linked?

    Hint: You are accusing the technicians of conspiring with or aiding mass murderers. It's a pretty damn serious claim, wouldn't you say? I mean, when Emile Zola accused his government, he actually did it on the front page of the newspaper with his name in big block letters. You're accusing people of much worse with less evidence on a football messageboard. So I gave you some contact info that you might get the answers you claim you need.

    Oh, and as for my integrity, I will gladly take my reputation over yours.

    I am well aware of who appreciates me and who doesn't.

    And why.
    Everybody <3's Shvia!

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    Would you put it past one group of religious lunatics to try and frame another group of religious lunatics?
    So after all this talk about how money and power are the concrete motives yadda yadda, now you're claiming BushCo are religious lunatics? Didn't you claim that it was an international conspiracy with the Saudi and Pakistani intelligence agencies?

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    Re: 9/11 - What convinced you?

    I love Shiva for his freedoms. <3

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    Re: 9/11 - What convinced you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    So why take the time to make a big looping turn when, as you claim, he wasn't going very fast?

    Especially when the Pentagon, THE WORLD'S LARGEST OFFICE BUILDING" isn't that hard to spot?

    You see it, adjust your heading, push the nose down and boom.
    Argument from how I think things happen.

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    Re: 9/11 - What convinced you?

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeMama View Post
    You know me, Sparty, it's all the same group of crazy in the end.

    If you believe in crazy invisible cloud people, why wouldn't you do insane things to validate your horrible beliefs?
    Exactly.

    Especially if you believe the invisible cloud guy wants you to be rich and rule the world before he raptures you up to heaven. Like gameboy, for example.

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    Re: 9/11 - What convinced you?

    Quote Originally Posted by gameboy View Post
    Can you make a point here?

    I sure don't get one, but if my suspicions are correct, you have demonstrated ignorance again.

    What is the point of this post?
    The point?

    Why the turn? As you pointed out, every second in the air increases the probability of being intercepted. Why not just push the nose down AIM directly at the building and take it on in?

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    Re: 9/11 - What convinced you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    The point?

    Why the turn? As you pointed out, every second in the air increases the probability of being intercepted. Why not just push the nose down AIM directly at the building and take it on in?
    Argument from hindsight is the same as foresight

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    Re: 9/11 - What convinced you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    The point?

    Why the turn? As you pointed out, every second in the air increases the probability of being intercepted. Why not just push the nose down AIM directly at the building and take it on in?
    Is there evidence that suggests to you that the resulting 'tactic' was the original intent? FWIW, though, I'm not a pilot by any means but in conversations with friends that are they have indicated that controlling a plane and hitting a target is much more difficult in a dive than a 'nose level', slow turn with descent.

    Long you live and high you fly And smiles you'll give and tears you'll cry And all you touch and all you see Is all your life will ever be.

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    Re: 9/11 - What convinced you?

    Quote Originally Posted by IlluminatusUIUC View Post
    If you had read the NTSB report I linked, which you clearly haven't, you see that the entire maneuver from the start of the turn to the impact took less than four minutes. He'd already been flying the plane for over a half-hour, so taking the extra time to make sure he hit a high-value target seems perfectly plausible.
    Seems highly implausible to me spending 4 minutes dicking around when he could have just pushed the nose down and aimed for the LARGEST OFFICE BUILDING IN THE WORLD! "High value target" indeed. LOL! You've been reading too many Tom Clancy novels.

    Quote Originally Posted by IlluminatusUIUC View Post
    It would explain the looping turn if he wanted to get low enough to spot a target and picked the Pentagon because, hey, there it is.
    Get low enough to spot the Pentagon? Are you serious?

    Quote Originally Posted by IlluminatusUIUC View Post
    It calls into question your sources, the weight you choose to give them, and the preconceptions you bring into these discussions.
    Bull**** does all that? I gotta try it sometime.

    Quote Originally Posted by IlluminatusUIUC View Post
    Because you haven't demonstrated any. You didn't know what constitutes "tracking" a plane, you suggested that it was plausible that these airliners dropped off radar and were replaced by another plane, you thought it was a difficult maneuver to do a wide descent turn, you suggested that the plane could be remote-controlled, and so on.
    Sorry, but I do know what constitutes tracking a plane and as I said, 77 wasn't tracked the whole way, so it is plausible that these airliners dropped off radar and were replaced by another plane. Also, the turn is a difficult maneuver and remote-control is absolutely possible. Those are facts, no matter how much you whine about me.

    Quote Originally Posted by IlluminatusUIUC View Post
    I think that's enough. Shiva, spare what's left of your dignity and quit with the crying about insults. You give equally as well as you get.
    So, you've decided to cry about me insulting you and then justify it by claiming I was crying about you insulting me? Cute.

    Quote Originally Posted by IlluminatusUIUC View Post
    Right. So once again, you don't actually have any thing to point to. The 9/11 Commission failed to disprove every single conspiracy fantasy, and accordingly they must be plausible.
    Don't be silly. Has the possibility Bin Laden is working for someone never occurred to you? Really? He worked for the CIA for ten years. His family had done business with Bushco from at least the mid 70's when guess who? was CIA director.

    Quote Originally Posted by IlluminatusUIUC View Post
    Hint: All these things I'm posting are my evidence. The 9/11 commission could barely fit all their conclusions in a 500 page book, and you want me to write it all in a message board thread at once? Get real, guy. We can pick parts of it and talk about them, as we have, or you can keep crying that my answers are incomplete.
    That's your evidence? A bunch of BS and a plea that there's just too much to mention? Could you be any lamer?

    Quote Originally Posted by IlluminatusUIUC View Post
    More failure to read the posted links: Again, http://www.cstl.nist.gov/div831/strb.../Edson2004.pdf
    Oh, I read, and unlike you, I comprehend. Surely you're smart enough to understand what, and what not, "participated" and "actively involved" mean?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word

    Quote Originally Posted by IlluminatusUIUC View Post
    Do you ever get tired of being proven wrong?
    Whenever it happens, I'll let you know.

    Quote Originally Posted by IlluminatusUIUC View Post
    What is one big difference between some poster at JREF and the technicians I linked?

    Hint: You are accusing the technicians of conspiring with or aiding mass murderers. It's a pretty damn serious claim, wouldn't you say?
    I am not accusing THEM of anything. What I am questioning is the EXTENT of their "participation" and "active involvement" and the possibility the evidence could be corrupted before they became involved. After all, people planting evidence is hardly unknown in the history of the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by IlluminatusUIUC View Post
    Everybody <3's Shvia!
    Not everyone, but that's okay.

    Quote Originally Posted by IlluminatusUIUC View Post
    So after all this talk about how money and power are the concrete motives yadda yadda, now you're claiming BushCo are religious lunatics? Didn't you claim that it was an international conspiracy with the Saudi and Pakistani intelligence agencies?
    You think religious lunatics are immune to power and money? Where have you been for the last 2000 years or so?

    But if you wish something a little more contemporary and America-centric...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominionism

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