Gators and Trojans lost...

[cookie G]

One call from the refs (which they did blow) is hardly needing them to win the game, that's a ridiculous comment. I mean we overcame two redzone turnovers to win the game.

Eh, don't be daft. Down by 14 in the 4th, they're handed 7 points. I've seen less obvious calls in the WWE.

Mark, what the hell happened on that play?

[DraftBoy]

Eh, don't be daft. Down by 14 in the 4th, they're handed 7 points. I've seen less obvious calls in the WWE.

Mark, what the hell happened on that play?

Im not, but don't be ridiculous. Yes the call extended the drive, but you can't tell me it won the game for the team. You have a redshirt freshman who threw a INT inside our the 10 on the next drive and a star RB (I use the term star loosely) who fumbles on the goalline. Both of which were ND's demons last year that they were never able to overcome, but this year this team is different. This wasn't a call like the Seattle/Green Bay game where the refs gave Seattle a TD, this was a bad call but it didn't cost Pitt the game by any means.

- - - Updated - - -

And I miss Mangino.

[cookie G]

Im not, but don't be ridiculous. Yes the call extended the drive, but you can't tell me it won the game for the team. You have a redshirt freshman who threw a INT inside our the 10 on the next drive and a star RB (I use the term star loosely) who fumbles on the goalline. Both of which were ND's demons last year that they were never able to overcome, but this year this team is different. This wasn't a call like the Seattle/Green Bay game where the refs gave Seattle a TD, this was a bad call but it didn't cost Pitt the game by any means.

They needed help to win. They got it. Game was over if the penalty wasn't called.

Accept it.

And I miss Mangino.

His wife has cancer, one of the reasons he isn't coaching. He's been hanging around Stoops periodically over the last few years.

[DraftBoy]

They needed help to win. They got it. Game was over if the penalty wasn't called.

Accept it.

That's a poor argument and you know it, you could say that about any call that extends any drive in any game that the winning team got. ND won the game straight up, to argue otherwise is ridiculous. I can deal with people not liking ND or taking shots because they can't put away or even lead crappy teams (BYU, Pitt) but to say they won because of a call is too far beyond reality given what else happened in that game.

His wife has cancer, one of the reasons he isn't coaching. He's been hanging around Stoops periodically over the last few years.

I had read that before, I do wish her the best. He did more with Kansas than Weiss will ever accomplish though next year they'll have a real QB.

[cookie G]

That's a poor argument and you know it, you could say that about any call that extends any drive in any game that the winning team got.

Yeah, yeah, hear that all the time a homer call is made;

One play doesn't make a game;
Its a 60 minute game.

Etc, etc.

ND won the game straight up, to argue otherwise is ridiculous.

Of course they did. Luck of the Irish.

I can deal with people not liking ND or taking shots because they can't put away or even lead crappy teams (BYU, Pitt) but to say they won because of a call is too far beyond reality given what else happened in that game.

This is a serious question...why do ND fans think there is some inherent hatred of ND? I first saw it a few weeks ago, when I questioned them being in the top 5. OP came back with something like "your bias is showing". I noticed a few weeks later that you said something like "The irrational hatred of ND will come out this week".

But what really topped it off was reading a Yahoo article on one of their games a few weeks ago. I started browsing the comments, and I bet the first dozen or so comments were to the effect of "eh, people just hate ND"..."they're jealous", etc. etc.

Is there a persecution complex going on? Or some..."they hate us because of our freedoms" deal?

Honestly, I rarely gave them much of a thought in recent years, any more than I'd give ....Marshall a thought. I never really cared that they had their own network, if anything, it freed up networks to show Top 10 games.

As far as the call, hell, I was flipping channels at the time, I saw ND was down by 2 TD's and they were driving the ball. I decided to keep it on for the rest of the drive. It was clear they were in deep trouble if they didn't score. When they missed, and then the flag came out, I actually laughed out loud. I could just say, "guys, could you be a little more subtle in giving a team a break?"

I had read that before, I do wish her the best. He did more with Kansas than Weiss will ever accomplish though next year they'll have a real QB.

There was an article about him last month locally. She's just finished treatments, and told him to go out and get a coaching job. I can see why she wants him out of the house, he's really not the most pleasant guy to be around.

Weis is more damage control than anything. It was obvious that Mangino's ouster was orchestrated by then GM Lew Perkins, who ended up resigning over the ticket selling scandal. It was no secret that they hated each other, and I'm sure Perkins didn't like Mangino stealing attention away from the basketball program.

But there really were people here who thought Turner Gill was going to be a better coach...seriously.

There was no football program before Mangino. He was literally going around campus, looking for guys to fill the roster on his football team. The weight training facilities were high school grade.

But...people thought he wasn't good enough.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

There was no football program before Mangino. He was literally going around campus, looking for guys to fill the roster on his football team. The weight training facilities were high school grade.

But...people thought he wasn't good enough.

I'm skeptical that the facilities were that bad at a school that is a perennial basketball powerhouse, but he did work wonders with that program.

[DraftBoy]

This is a serious question...why do ND fans think there is some inherent hatred of ND? I first saw it a few weeks ago, when I questioned them being in the top 5. OP came back with something like "your bias is showing". I noticed a few weeks later that you said something like "The irrational hatred of ND will come out this week".

But what really topped it off was reading a Yahoo article on one of their games a few weeks ago. I started browsing the comments, and I bet the first dozen or so comments were to the effect of "eh, people just hate ND"..."they're jealous", etc. etc.

Is there a persecution complex going on? Or some..."they hate us because of our freedoms" deal?

Honestly, I rarely gave them much of a thought in recent years, any more than I'd give ....Marshall a thought. I never really cared that they had their own network, if anything, it freed up networks to show Top 10 games.

As far as the call, hell, I was flipping channels at the time, I saw ND was down by 2 TD's and they were driving the ball. I decided to keep it on for the rest of the drive. It was clear they were in deep trouble if they didn't score. When they missed, and then the flag came out, I actually laughed out loud. I could just say, "guys, could you be a little more subtle in giving a team a break?"

A couple of things to clear up;
1-Its not a persecution complex, its what you deal with when you have a nationally recognized program that has gone to **** but that the media refuses to let rebuild. Every year it seemed the university found new ways to promote itself (hiring first black coach, hiring darling of Pats offense, etc.) and every year the team still wasn't good enough. Every year we see the "ND is really back this time guys" article and every year prior they found a way to lose to Navy. Over that time people have grown an irrational hatred toward the program. "Why are they on TV every week?", "Why does ESPN spend any time on them?", and on and on and on with stupid questions based on fans that have a 5 second attention span. Its just resentment for the most part, for example. On Sunday College Football News (part of the Fox Sports/Scout network) did quick reactions to the ND victory over Pitt. One of their lead writers said this game left little doubt in his mind that ND would get stomped by at least four SEC teams. Four?! Ill give you LSU and Alabama, but you're going to tell me UGA who gives up 200+ rushing yards to Buffalo, or Florida who can't move the ball on Missouri's ****ty defense is going to stomp ND? Please. Would it be a good game? Absolutely and Im not even saying ND would without a doubt win. But explain to me how that works? How does a team that went into Norman and soundly beat Oklahoma still get no respect? I can cite countless other examples to like Finebaum or other national pundits. Maybe you didn't care, but you can't tell me nationally ND doesn't have to do more to get respect and that's deserved by their past performances, but its still real.

2-We don't have our own network, we are not BYU, Texas, the Pac 12 or the Big 10. NBC shows games from ND, Ivy League, and CAA. We also play games on ESPN and ABC.

3-Ive already said it was the wrong call, at least twice, I don't what more you want. But the call didn't result in a TD being unfairly given, your view literally robs the players of the performance it took to come back and make not just that drive happen but the one after and the ones in OT. Yes they got a call given to them and a play (or two, I honestly can't recall exactly) ND scored to begin the comeback, but the call was just one of many made and missed. I hate the argument that a singular refs call effected the outcome of any game that much, I do not agree no matter the teams or situation.

[cookie G]

I'm skeptical that the facilities were that bad at a school that is a perennial basketball powerhouse, but he did work wonders with that program.

They were that bad.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sport...69969700_x.htm

Lots of the stuff at KU is still pretty old and outdated. Kansas State got a new basketball arena and football stadium in the late 80's early 90's but KU never did.

Memorial Stadium is really a dump, not much better than the old Rockpile in Buffalo.

the hallowed Allen Fieldhouse (which I hope they never change), is nowhere near a luxury facility. It is basically a limestone barn with wooden benches throughout. No seat backs, just planks. They must have 20-30 coats of paint on them. The only real amenity is the HD scoreboard.

What makes the place look pretty is the Big 6, Big 8, Big 12 and NCAA regional/Final Four and NC banners that cover every inch of the ceiling. When you go there, you understand how the Celtics fans felt about the Garden.

[DraftBoy]

They were that bad.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sport...69969700_x.htm

Lots of the stuff at KU is still pretty old and outdated. Kansas State got a new basketball arena and football stadium in the late 80's early 90's but KU never did.

Memorial Stadium is really a dump, not much better than the old Rockpile in Buffalo.

the hallowed Allen Fieldhouse (which I hope they never change), is nowhere near a luxury facility. It is basically a limestone barn with wooden benches throughout. No seat backs, just planks. They must have 20-30 coats of paint on them. The only real amenity is the HD scoreboard.

What makes the place look pretty is the Big 6, Big 8, Big 12 and NCAA regional/Final Four and NC banners that cover every inch of the ceiling. When you go there, you understand how the Celtics fans felt about the Garden.

They can never change Allen Fieldhouse.

[cookie G]

A couple of things to clear up;
1-Its not a persecution complex, its what you deal with when you have a nationally recognized program that has gone to **** but that the media refuses to let rebuild. Every year it seemed the university found new ways to promote itself (hiring first black coach, hiring darling of Pats offense, etc.) and every year the team still wasn't good enough. Every year we see the "ND is really back this time guys" article and every year prior they found a way to lose to Navy. Over that time people have grown an irrational hatred toward the program. "Why are they on TV every week?", "Why does ESPN spend any time on them?", and on and on and on with stupid questions based on fans that have a 5 second attention span. Its just resentment for the most part, for example. On Sunday College Football News (part of the Fox Sports/Scout network) did quick reactions to the ND victory over Pitt. One of their lead writers said this game left little doubt in his mind that ND would get stomped by at least four SEC teams. Four?! Ill give you LSU and Alabama, but you're going to tell me UGA who gives up 200+ rushing yards to Buffalo, or Florida who can't move the ball on Missouri's ****ty defense is going to stomp ND? Please. Would it be a good game? Absolutely and Im not even saying ND would without a doubt win. But explain to me how that works? How does a team that went into Norman and soundly beat Oklahoma still get no respect? I can cite countless other examples to like Finebaum or other national pundits. Maybe you didn't care, but you can't tell me nationally ND doesn't have to do more to get respect and that's deserved by their past performances, but its still real.

2-We don't have our own network, we are not BYU, Texas, the Pac 12 or the Big 10. NBC shows games from ND, Ivy League, and CAA. We also play games on ESPN and ABC.

3-Ive already said it was the wrong call, at least twice, I don't what more you want. But the call didn't result in a TD being unfairly given, your view literally robs the players of the performance it took to come back and make not just that drive happen but the one after and the ones in OT. Yes they got a call given to them and a play (or two, I honestly can't recall exactly) ND scored to begin the comeback, but the call was just one of many made and missed. I hate the argument that a singular refs call effected the outcome of any game that much, I do not agree no matter the teams or situation.

Respect isn't an entitlement.

Ask Boise St.

For people to be leery of a team that's had a recently mixed record against the Military Academies is...natural.

Oregon's schedule has been questioned all year.

Hell, even Alabama's schedule has been questioned.

Last year Arkansas trashed every team it played, except the 2 best teams in the country. They were probably the third best team in the country. They beat 3 Top 20 teams and trashed everyone else they faced in the toughest conference in football.

They were ranked 6th. They were PASSED OVER for a BCS bowl game in favor of a crappy Michigan team and a VT team that was 0-2 against top 20 teams.

THAT'S disrespect.

[k-oneputt]

Respect isn't an entitlement.

Ask Boise St.

For people to be leery of a team that's had a recently mixed record against the Military Academies is...natural.

Oregon's schedule has been questioned all year.

Hell, even Alabama's schedule has been questioned.

Last year Arkansas trashed every team it played, except the 2 best teams in the country. They were probably the third best team in the country. They beat 3 Top 20 teams and trashed everyone else they faced in the toughest conference in football.

They were ranked 6th. They were PASSED OVER for a BCS bowl game in favor of a crappy Michigan team and a VT team that was 0-2 against top 20 teams.

THAT'S disrespect.

You can say your breath. They just don't understand or comprehend what it is like to play every week in a conference like the SEC. Some here actually believe teams like Boise, Houston, TCU, Utah, and West Virgina should have played in the NC game in years past because they win one tough game a year.

[DraftBoy]

Respect isn't an entitlement.

Ask Boise St.

For people to be leery of a team that's had a recently mixed record against the Military Academies is...natural.

Oregon's schedule has been questioned all year.

Hell, even Alabama's schedule has been questioned.

Last year Arkansas trashed every team it played, except the 2 best teams in the country. They were probably the third best team in the country. They beat 3 Top 20 teams and trashed everyone else they faced in the toughest conference in football.

They were ranked 6th. They were PASSED OVER for a BCS bowl game in favor of a crappy Michigan team and a VT team that was 0-2 against top 20 teams.

THAT'S disrespect.

Im glad you brought up Arkansas. Much like them Notre Dame has beaten three Top 20 teams, and they have won their toughest games, but yet they continue to get disrespected. I like this angle, its much easier for us to agree.

[cookie G]

Im glad you brought up Arkansas. Much like them Notre Dame has beaten three Top 20 teams, and they have won their toughest games, but yet they continue to get disrespected. I like this angle, its much easier for us to agree.

Legit top 20 teams, DB, legit ones. Michigan and Michigan st. don't count.

ND's schedule isn't close to what Ark had last year.

[DraftBoy]

Legit top 20 teams, DB, legit ones. Michigan and Michigan st. don't count.

ND's schedule isn't close to what Ark had last year.

Now we're picking and choosing? How about Stanford? They were ranked 17 when we beat them. Is USC going to bother to count in a couple of weeks or are we just going to assume ND played only one game all year?

However for Arkansas victories over a 7-6 Texas A&M, and an 8-5 Auburn get held up as vaunted? You're setting a ridiculous standard based on conference rep and not on the quality of opponents. You want to give Arkansas credit for beating two mediocre teams that were ranked at the time but not give ND credit for doing the exact same thing.

[cookie G]

Now we're picking and choosing? How about Stanford? They were ranked 17 when we beat them. Is USC going to bother to count in a couple of weeks or are we just going to assume ND played only one game all year?

However for Arkansas victories over a 7-6 Texas A&M, and an 8-5 Auburn get held up as vaunted? You're setting a ridiculous standard based on conference rep and not on the quality of opponents. You want to give Arkansas credit for beating two mediocre teams that were ranked at the time but not give ND credit for doing the exact same thing.

Sorry, but a schedule with 3 Big 10 teams, 2 Big East teams 1 5-4 BYU team and 1 Military academy team in 7 of your first 9 games doesn't compare with Arkansas' 2011 schedule.

Not in this universe anyway.

[DraftBoy]

Sorry, but a schedule with 3 Big 10 teams, 2 Big East teams 1 5-4 BYU team and 1 Military academy team in 7 of your first 9 games doesn't compare with Arkansas' 2011 schedule.

Not in this universe anyway.

Yes because a combined 15-11 is really something to write home about. Conference strength arguments are weak and you know that. Is the SEC the best conference? Yes, but that doesn't automatically mean that beating teams that barely get over .500 is suddenly some kind of heroic accomplishment.

[cookie G]

Yes because a combined 15-11 is really something to write home about. Conference strength arguments are weak and you know that. Is the SEC the best conference? Yes, but that doesn't automatically mean that beating teams that barely get over .500 is suddenly some kind of heroic accomplishment.

Its a weak argument if you live in some type of fantasy land where all conferences are created equal, or play equally.

6 straight national championships says otherwise. As do ESPN conference rankings, which only confirms what most already have figured out. There are stronger conferences, there are weaker conferences.

Of those 11 losses you point out, how many of those losses were against LSU and Bama? Each one of Ark's 2011
SEC opponents played at least one of them.

[DraftBoy]

Its a weak argument if you live in some type of fantasy land where all conferences are created equal, or play equally.

6 straight national championships says otherwise. As do ESPN conference rankings, which only confirms what most already have figured out. There are stronger conferences, there are weaker conferences.

Of those 11 losses you point out, how many of those losses were against LSU and Bama? Each one of Ark's 2011
SEC opponents played at least one of them.

Who has argued any differently? Has anybody ever said in this thread the SEC is not the creme of the crop? You're arguing a point nobody is making.

You claimed Arkansas on the backs of beating three ranked teams last year was the 3rd best team in the country, yet you do not grant ND the same courtesy despite winning games v. 4 ranked teams because you perceive the combined strength of A&M and Auburn's 15-11 to be better than that of Michigan State and Michigan's combined 11-8. Are we really have this discussion? They are having an almost identical season.

And let's not forget Arkansas's big wins v. Missouri State, Troy, and New Mexico last year. They play in the SEC and they get credit for that, but let's not act like the team ran the gauntlet of Bama, Georgia, LSU, South Carolina, and Florida last year. They played a relatively easy SECE slate, beating a good South Carolina team and otherwise had SECE competition that went a combined 11-14 and had a grand total of 3 conference wins combined (Vandy, and Tennessee).

Sorry just saw your question about how many of the combined 11 losses were to LSU or Bama, and the answer is 2.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Last year Arkansas trashed every team it played, except the 2 best teams in the country. They were probably the third best team in the country. They beat 3 Top 20 teams and trashed everyone else they faced in the toughest conference in football.

They were ranked 6th. They were PASSED OVER for a BCS bowl game in favor of a crappy Michigan team and a VT team that was 0-2 against top 20 teams.

THAT'S disrespect.

Legit top 20 teams, DB, legit ones. Michigan and Michigan st. don't count.

ND's schedule isn't close to what Ark had last year.

Sorry, but a schedule with 3 Big 10 teams, 2 Big East teams 1 5-4 BYU team and 1 Military academy team in 7 of your first 9 games doesn't compare with Arkansas' 2011 schedule.

Not in this universe anyway.

You're all over the place with this argument. Are you going by a team's ranking when they played or where they finished? Because Arkansas beat Auburn and TAMU when they were ranked, but by the time the end of the season rolled around, both of those teams were in the "Also receiving votes" box. The only ranked teams Arky beat that stayed ranked were KState and South Carolina.

So you're counting #15 Auburn as a Top 20 win even though they didn't finish there, but slamming #10 Michigan State because they didn't either?

And Oklahoma State was better than Arkansas last year. Come on now. If you're going to start claiming that SEC teams now deserve a full 1.5 game lead on non-SEC teams then it's getting silly.

[YardRat]

Walt Patulski, Tony Hunter, Jeff Burris...yeah, I hate ND and it's not unwarranted.