Katrina vs. Sandy

[dannyek71]

Critics have complained that the National Guard’s talents are being wasted. Instead of providing security against looters and directing traffic, they say, it’s been ordered to do little more than give out food and blankets.
Sources said the Guard’s role has been a source of contention between Mayor Bloomberg, who believes police have the situation under control, and Gov. Cuomo, who wants to blanket the area with the citizen soldiers.
“This thing goes back to the beginning of the storm,” said a source working with city and state officials.
“The mayor downplayed it, and so he needs to keep maintaining the optics that it’s not as bad by downplaying it. Bringing in the National Guard says that it’s a major disaster because it is. It’s bad. It’s really bad. And Cuomo knows it.”


Councilman James Sanders (D-Queens) griped, “You’ve got several people who have had their houses totally robbed. The police were hopelessly overwhelmed in the first few days.”

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/q...maGYS967gz5YcJ

[DraftBoy]

I have a feeling you disagree about something I wrote. Is it the death toll? Is it the stark differences in bipartisan cooperation among local, state, and federal government? Is it the even more stark contrast in the professional qualifications and conduct of the FEMA directors? What is it?

Enough with your casual hand waving. What did I get wrong exactly? Apparently, you think I got it ALL wrong since you question "any of these assumptions".

Disagree? No, question yes. Are you working directly with any of the bipartisan coorperation you referenced? Are you working with FEMA and aware of their current efforts/objectives in specific areas?

Im not saying you got anything wrong, I just wonder how much you actually know v. how much you're basing off the nightly news. That doesn't make you wrong and it doesn't make you right because there is no wrong or right answer. Well to be truthful there is no "answer" right now so any statements being cast off as final facts are meaningless. We have another storm 48 hours away that is going to batter the area and produce another surge (though less than Sandy), the relief efforts will have to restart again in a few days. More lives will be lost as hypothermia and medical issues begin to become more problematic as the temps drop.

[DraftBoy]

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/q...maGYS967gz5YcJ

Sadly crime always occurs in these situations, not sure the National Guard is equipped to stop it much more than the police are. The issue still is trying to get people in and out and committing the National Guard to an area requires a lot of resources that one could argue could be used for the citizens in need.

[gebobs]

I mean what is the point exactly, there is no end game

Sure there is. I don't hope to convince any right wingers about much. They can believe until the cows come home that the earth was created in six literal days 6000 years go. They can believe that humans have souls from the point of conception. They can wax poetic about the "sanctity of human life" on one hand and wantonly disregard it on the other. They can believe that evolution, AGW, ozone depletion, and stem cell science are conspiracies. And liberals can have their time with homeopathy, vaccines, and their pet nonsense.

All I can hope for is to convince those that have not taken sides or at least have leg on the fence.

None of this has anything to do with the current thread. Katrina was a cluster****. The Obama administration has the benefit of learning from the Bush administrations mistakes. But some of the mistakes, like putting that idiot Michael Brown in charge, were so grievous that one would hope that it wouldn't need learning.

[DraftBoy]

None of this has anything to do with the current thread. Katrina was a cluster****. The Obama administration has the benefit of learning from the Bush administrations mistakes. But some of the mistakes, like putting that idiot Michael Brown in charge, were so grievous that one would hope that it wouldn't need learning.

Agreed, but we know very little of what the relief effort is an isn't accomplishing and where the kinks (if there are any) are. Let's not forget the FEMA screw up in New Orleans was bad, but Governor Blanco was as much to blame if not more so for her response. This isn't necessairly about what Obama is doing, or what Christie is, or what Bloomberg isn't, because we just don't know anything yet. We will in the coming months but as of now we just don't know.

[denverboz]

Paul Krugman writes an excellent op ed this morning, with exactly this title, "Sandy vs Katrina". Well he put Sandy first. :)

Here's just a bit, the whole thing is definitely worth the read, but just beware if you're fact averse.

I could do a point-by-point — and it’s definitely worth it, if you’re curious, to revisit the 2005 Katrina timeline to get a sense of just how bad the response really was. But for me the difference is summed up in two images. One is the nightmare at the New Orleans convention center, where thousands were stranded for days amid inconceivable squalor, an outrage that all of America watched live on TV, but to which top officials seemed oblivious. The other is the scene in flooded Hoboken, with the National Guard moving in the day after the storm struck to deliver food and water and rescue stranded residents. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/05/op...atrina.html?hp

[gebobs]

Disagree? No, question yes. Are you working directly with any of the bipartisan coorperation you referenced? Are you working with FEMA and aware of their current efforts/objectives in specific areas?

Im not saying you got anything wrong, I just wonder how much you actually know v. how much you're basing off the nightly news. That doesn't make you wrong and it doesn't make you right because there is no wrong or right answer. Well to be truthful there is no "answer" right now so any statements being cast off as final facts are meaningless. We have another storm 48 hours away that is going to batter the area and produce another surge (though less than Sandy), the relief efforts will have to restart again in a few days. More lives will be lost as hypothermia and medical issues begin to become more problematic as the temps drop.

Michael Brown was an incompetant boob who had zero relevant experience in disaster management and relief. That is a fact. Craig Fugate is a competent emergency management specialist with a quarter century of relevant experience in a state (Florida) which gets pounded regularly with hurricanes.

I don't need to be with the boots on the ground to know that. Those are facts. They are not disputed by anyone not named Michael Brown or George Bush.

[DraftBoy]

Paul Krugman writes an excellent op ed this morning, with exactly this title, "Sandy vs Katrina". Well he put Sandy first. :)

Here's just a bit, the whole thing is definitely worth the read, but just beware if you're fact averse.

Is he writing about economic impact or is he really trying to speculate on disaster relief? I haven't read it yet, though I intend to later today.

[gebobs]

Agreed, but we know very little of what the relief effort is an isn't accomplishing and where the kinks (if there are any) are.

Good thing I didn't stray from what we do know other than the death toll for Sandy which I never claimed was final. It probably won't be over a few hundred and it certainly won't be anywhere near 1800.

[DraftBoy]

Michael Brown was an incompetant boob who had zero relevant experience in disaster management and relief. That is a fact. Craig Fugate is a competent emergency management specialist with a quarter century of relevant experience in a state (Florida) which gets pounded regularly with hurricanes.

I don't need to be with the boots on the ground to know that. Those are facts. They are not disputed by anyone not named Michael Brown or George Bush.

Brown was a boob, sure, but Fugate has never dealt with a storm like this, nobody has. I thought Fugate was a good appointment but this isn't a gulf based storm and the response has to be different. Nobody is/was prepared for this. This isn't a knock on Fugate at all.

- - - Updated - - -

Good thing I didn't stray from what we do know other than the death toll for Sandy which I never claimed was final. It probably won't be over a few hundred and it certainly won't be anywhere near 1800.

We shall see, I hate speculating on Death Tolls, that has to be one of the most depressing things.

[gebobs]

Brown was a boob, sure, but Fugate has never dealt with a storm like this, nobody has. I thought Fugate was a good appointment but this isn't a gulf based storm and the response has to be different. Nobody is/was prepared for this. This isn't a knock on Fugate at all.

Sounds good. I'll take the guy who was on the ground with Andrew in 1992 (another Bush clusterfark) as the Alachua County Emergency Manager over the horse trader any day of the week and twice when a climate-fueled superstorm hits. I assume you agree.

[denverboz]

Agreed, but we know very little of what the relief effort is an isn't accomplishing and where the kinks (if there are any) are. Let's not forget the FEMA screw up in New Orleans was bad, but Governor Blanco was as much to blame if not more so for her response. This isn't necessairly about what Obama is doing, or what Christie is, or what Bloomberg isn't, because we just don't know anything yet. We will in the coming months but as of now we just don't know.

Hey, dont take this personally, but that is complete BS! We know a hell of a lot, it's been unfolding before our eyes just like Katrina did. And the response of the govt this time has been exemplary compared to Katrina. Brownie recently said Obama screwed up by taking action before it actually hit, and not waiting till after!! WTF These people really believe that crap. Can you imagine how many more deaths there would have been had Brownie still been in there? These people hate govt and are doing everything they can to weaken it and drown it in a bathtub! In other words they want to destroy it!

[gebobs]

Is he writing about economic impact or is he really trying to speculate on disaster relief? I haven't read it yet, though I intend to later today.

It's basically about the cycle of FEMA dismantling under Republicans vs. FEMA rebuilding under Democrats. It's fundamental to both party's raison d'etre. Republicans want to gut government at all cost regardless of peril. Democrats disagree.

So let the Republican party control spending for all those bloated departments that actually don't help people and really put a dent in the wallet...like defense. Let the Democrats control FEMA, NASA, etc.

[dannyek71]

It's basically about the cycle of FEMA dismantling under Republicans vs. FEMA rebuilding under Democrats. It's fundamental to both party's raison d'etre. Republicans want to gut government at all cost regardless of peril. Democrats disagree.

So let the Republican party control spending for all those bloated departments that actually don't help people and really put a dent in the wallet...like defense. Let the Democrats control FEMA, NASA, etc.

Unbiased opinion.

[DraftBoy]

Hey, dont take this personally, but that is complete BS! We know a hell of a lot, it's been unfolding before our eyes just like Katrina did. And the response of the govt this time has been exemplary compared to Katrina. Brownie recently said Obama screwed up by taking action before it actually hit, and not waiting till after!! WTF These people really believe that crap. Can you imagine how many more deaths there would have been had Brownie still been in there? These people hate govt and are doing everything they can to weaken it and drown it in a bathtub! In other words they want to destroy it!

None taken, but you don't know hardly anything compared to what is actually happening. That's not to say I do, because I know very little myself but I do know what's being reported is not even close to what the full response or effort is.

[DraftBoy]

It's basically about the cycle of FEMA dismantling under Republicans vs. FEMA rebuilding under Democrats. It's fundamental to both party's raison d'etre. Republicans want to gut government at all cost regardless of peril. Democrats disagree.

So let the Republican party control spending for all those bloated departments that actually don't help people and really put a dent in the wallet...like defense. Let the Democrats control FEMA, NASA, etc.

Bit of a radical concept but should make for an entertaining read at the very least. Thanks!

[gebobs]

None taken, but you don't know hardly anything compared to what is actually happening. That's not to say I do, because I know very little myself but I do know what's being reported is not even close to what the full response or effort is.

Of course we rely on reporters to give us an abbreviated version of even. I think we have a pretty good idea about what the response is and how effective it is. There is far more reporting on it compared to Katrina since New Orleans was basically a dead zone.

[gebobs]

Unbiased opinion.

No...objective fact.

FEMA director under Bush I, Wallace Stinckney, was a bureacratic hack and Republican apparatchik for Reagan and Sununu. His principle focus was nuclear survivability. Before Hurricane Andrew, a Congressional Report said this of FEMA:

FEMA is widely viewed as a political dumping ground, a turkey farm, if you will, where large numbers of positions exist that can be conveniently and quietly filled by political appointment.

Clinton appointed James Lee Witt who was the Emergency Director in Arkansas under Clinton. Within 3 years, he had turned FEMA around. An Atlanta Journal-Constitution article from 1996:

FEMA has developed a sterling reputation for delivering disaster-relief services, a far cry from its abysmal standing before James Lee Witt took its helm in 1993. How did Witt turn FEMA around so quickly? Well, he is the first director of the agency to have emergency-management experience. He stopped the staffing of the agency by political patronage. He removed layers of bureaucracy. Most important, he instilled in the agency a spirit of preparedness, of service to the customer, of willingness to listen to ideas of local and state officials to make the system work better.

Bush II then appointed Joe Allbaugh and, most infamously, Brownie. Both were crony appointments, plain and simple.

Obama appointed Craig Fugate whose resume in emergency response and disaster relief is without par.

[DraftBoy]

Of course we rely on reporters to give us an abbreviated version of even. I think we have a pretty good idea about what the response is and how effective it is. There is far more reporting on it compared to Katrina since New Orleans was basically a dead zone.

More does not equal better, not to mention how far the bar for journalism has fallen in general.

[dannyek71]

More does not equal better, not to mention how far the bar for journalism has fallen in general.

I remember hundreds dying inside the superdome.