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Thread: The entire moral landscape has changed

  1. #61
    Registered User Bellowing4DaBills's Avatar
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    Re: The entire moral landscape has changed

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeInRoch View Post
    "Share" does not equal "force upon".
    Correct. That is why I said to "... share and convince their society to institute them legislatively"

    I would not consider a belief that has been accepted into law through a country's accepted democratic/legislative process as "force upon".

    Would you?
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    Registered User Bellowing4DaBills's Avatar
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    Re: The entire moral landscape has changed

    Quote Originally Posted by Tagir View Post
    Why can't we all just live by our own beliefs and let everyone else live by their's? I don't see why in America anyone thinks they can have religious beliefs that are true and are allowed to try and make other people see the truths or try and make them laws. America is founded on the exact opposite of that thought.
    Yes, America was founded as a secular democracy.

    But a secular democracy does not prohibit ideas and beliefs whether they were borne from religious teachings or not to enter the arena of public discourse and influence its laws.


    For example, the establishment clause in the separation of church and state amendment does not apply to the following … Christians think Abortion is immoral. They work together and influence politicians to enact a new law that prohibits partial-birth abortions.

    Whether you agree or not with the Christian belief regarding abortion, they have the right and I think correctly so to bring those beliefs to public and work within the democratic process to make changes that better reflects those beliefs.

  3. #63
    CIA-MIC profiteer extraordinaire Muktar al-Portlandi's Avatar
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    Re: The entire moral landscape has changed

    Quote Originally Posted by Bellowing4DaBills View Post


    Yes, America was founded as a secular democracy.

    But a secular democracy does not prohibit ideas and beliefs whether they were borne from religious teachings or not to enter the arena of public discourse and influence its laws.


    For example, the establishment clause in the separation of church and state amendment does not apply to the following … Christians think Abortion is immoral. They work together and influence politicians to enact a new law that prohibits partial-birth abortions.

    Whether you agree or not with the Christian belief regarding abortion, they have the right and I think correctly so to bring those beliefs to public and work within the democratic process to make changes that better reflects those beliefs.
    I understand your point completely. The constitution intends to protect individual liberty, not determine morality. The founders were well aware of the problems of the latter. You may recall that the pilgrims left Christian countries for religious freedom. It's not that they weren't aware of the downside of individual sovereignty. They were too well aware of the downside of theocratic monarchies. The US has one supreme law: the constitution. There's no God in there.

  4. #64
    Registered User MikeInRoch's Avatar
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    Re: The entire moral landscape has changed

    Quote Originally Posted by Bellowing4DaBills View Post
    Correct. That is why I said to "... share and convince their society to institute them legislatively"

    I would not consider a belief that has been accepted into law through a country's accepted democratic/legislative process as "force upon".

    Would you?
    It absolutely can be. The majority of the population can force almost anything on the minority.
    "'Clean up your room.', 'Stand up straight.', 'Pick up your feet.', 'Take it like a man.', 'Be nice to your sister.', 'Don't mix beer and wine, ever.'. Oh yeah, 'Don't drive on the railroad track.'"

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  5. #65
    Too sober for this... mysticsoto's Avatar
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    Re: The entire moral landscape has changed

    Quote Originally Posted by IlluminatusUIUC View Post
    Also, homosexuals can procreate, just not with each other.
    Not so fast. Read an article that said within the possibly near future, scientists will be able to extract gene information from one's cells and insert them into another in a way that would theoretically allow gays to procreate.

  6. #66
    Registered User Bellowing4DaBills's Avatar
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    Re: The entire moral landscape has changed

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeInRoch View Post
    It absolutely can be. The majority of the population can force almost anything on the minority.
    Good thing you live in a democratic Republic. If there is another form of government you wish the country be ruled by to completely avoid the tyranny of the majority than let us hear it.

  7. #67
    Registered User DraftBoy's Avatar
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    Re: The entire moral landscape has changed

    Quote Originally Posted by imbondz View Post
    it'll always go back to this point, all forms of legislation, is legislating one's belief. all legislation that has ever been passed is someone's belief forced on you and me.
    Belief yes, moral conviction no. Massive difference.
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  8. #68
    One Bills Drive, Georgia - 871 miles south of Orchard Park gebobs's Avatar
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    Re: The entire moral landscape has changed

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeMama View Post
    Thank you for bringing up electricity.

    A secular American by the name of Benjamin Franklin only invented it.
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeInRoch View Post
    Invented it? Because there was never any lightning before he did?
    Electrical phenomena have been studied for thousands of years. Franklin's famous experiment with the kite discovered the electrical nature of lightning and he was not the first to perform the experiment that he designed.

    Franklin also came up with the principle of conservation of charge and invented the lightning rod.
    Gailey's history. He just doesn't know it yet.

  9. #69
    Too sober for this... mysticsoto's Avatar
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    Re: The entire moral landscape has changed

    Quote Originally Posted by Bellowing4DaBills View Post
    Good thing you live in a democratic Republic. If there is another form of government you wish the country be ruled by to completely avoid the tyranny of the majority than let us hear it.
    How about a gov't that allows for freedom for all instead of shoving one particular groups' religious beliefs down your throat? You know? The very reason many fleed Europe's religious persecution to begin with - to have that freedom that our founding fathers realized would make this the best country!

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    Registered User IlluminatusUIUC's Avatar
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    Re: The entire moral landscape has changed

    Quote Originally Posted by Bellowing4DaBills View Post
    Good thing you live in a democratic Republic. If there is another form of government you wish the country be ruled by to completely avoid the tyranny of the majority than let us hear it.
    There is no form of government that can permanently avoid tyranny of the majority. Because they're the majority. But the one we have is set up to do so as best it can, with the caveat that a true supermajority can edit the Constitution to say whatever they like.
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  12. #71
    Registered User Bellowing4DaBills's Avatar
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    Re: The entire moral landscape has changed

    Quote Originally Posted by mysticsoto View Post
    How about a gov't that allows for freedom for all instead of shoving one particular groups' religious beliefs down your throat? You know? The very reason many fleed Europe's religious persecution to begin with - to have that freedom that our founding fathers realized would make this the best country!
    I believe your constitution has detailed your freedoms/inalienable rights for you. Which ones are they missing?

    Also, I am not aware of any laws that has been enacted for some time that persecutes your religion. Care to fill us in?

  13. #72
    Registered User Bellowing4DaBills's Avatar
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    Re: The entire moral landscape has changed

    Quote Originally Posted by Berger-boy View Post
    I understand your point completely. The constitution intends to protect individual liberty, not determine morality. The founders were well aware of the problems of the latter. You may recall that the pilgrims left Christian countries for religious freedom. It's not that they weren't aware of the downside of individual sovereignty. They were too well aware of the downside of theocratic monarchies. The US has one supreme law: the constitution. There's no God in there.
    Agreed. Your constitution is not a set of commands from a God.

    But I would also add it has greatly been influenced by the morality of a non-homogenous society whose morality was founded not only by tradition and rational human nature but also by religion.

    A good example of this influence is with the great role the Quaker anti-slavery movement had with the establishment of the thirteenth amendment.
    Last edited by Bellowing4DaBills; 11-12-2012 at 10:52 AM.

  14. #73
    Registered User MikeInRoch's Avatar
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    Re: The entire moral landscape has changed

    Quote Originally Posted by gebobs View Post
    Electrical phenomena have been studied for thousands of years. Franklin's famous experiment with the kite discovered the electrical nature of lightning and he was not the first to perform the experiment that he designed.

    Franklin also came up with the principle of conservation of charge and invented the lightning rod.
    Which is not "inventing electricity".

  15. #74
    One Bills Drive, Georgia - 871 miles south of Orchard Park gebobs's Avatar
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    Re: The entire moral landscape has changed

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeInRoch View Post
    Which is not "inventing electricity".
    That is correct. But I wanted to emphasize that he didn't discover electricity either. Both are common misunderstandings of Franklin's contribution to the study of electricity. Your post, though clear on the first, wasn't so clear on the second.

  16. #75
    Too sober for this... mysticsoto's Avatar
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    Re: The entire moral landscape has changed

    Quote Originally Posted by Bellowing4DaBills View Post
    I believe your constitution has detailed your freedoms/inalienable rights for you. Which ones are they missing?

    Also, I am not aware of any laws that has been enacted for some time that persecutes your religion. Care to fill us in?
    It's not what's been done...it's what many Conservatives WANT to do...the 'prevent abortion' legislation, the 'prevent gay marriage' legislation...the constitution is general enough that it in and of itself cannot stop such laws from becoming one if they get enacted. Nevertheless, they would limit the freedoms and personal beliefs of many - and it would be based solely on the idea that a select religiuos group wants to force their personal and religious beliefs down everyone else's throats.

  17. #76
    Registered User Bellowing4DaBills's Avatar
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    Re: The entire moral landscape has changed

    Quote Originally Posted by mysticsoto View Post
    It's not what's been done...it's what many Conservatives WANT to do...the 'prevent abortion' legislation, the 'prevent gay marriage' legislation...the constitution is general enough that it in and of itself cannot stop such laws from becoming one if they get enacted. Nevertheless, they would limit the freedoms and personal beliefs of many - and it would be based solely on the idea that a select religiuos group wants to force their personal and religious beliefs down everyone else's throats.
    Great. So what's been done (legislated) up to now you are cool with.

    So let us continue with this great system of government set up by your forefathers that allows freedom of speech and freedom of assembly even for those whose morality and beliefs you disagree with to continue to participate in your great democracy. Trust that it will continue to have the power of the people and the voice of truth win out as it has through your history.

  18. #77
    Too sober for this... mysticsoto's Avatar
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    Re: The entire moral landscape has changed

    Quote Originally Posted by Bellowing4DaBills View Post
    Great. So what's been done (legislated) up to now you are cool with.

    So let us continue with this great system of government set up by your forefathers that allows freedom of speech and freedom of assembly even for those whose morality and beliefs you disagree with to continue to participate in your great democracy. Trust that it will continue to have the power of the people and the voice of truth win out as it has through your history.
    This is what I want...I'm not advocating any change. I'm advocating remaining aware of those that want to change it. Or perhaps you haven't been paying attn to the close to 1000 abortion or abortion related bills that have been introduced and that Republicans have attempted to pass - this while claiming that jobs & the economy is supposedly their #1 issue.

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    Registered User chernobylwraiths's Avatar
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    Re: The entire moral landscape has changed

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeMama View Post
    Thank you for bringing up electricity.

    A secular American by the name of Benjamin Franklin only invented it.
    I believe he "discovered" it. It has been around for millenia.

  20. #79
    Registered User Bellowing4DaBills's Avatar
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    Re: The entire moral landscape has changed

    Quote Originally Posted by mysticsoto View Post
    This is what I want...I'm not advocating any change. I'm advocating remaining aware of those that want to change it. Or perhaps you haven't been paying attn to the close to 1000 abortion or abortion related bills that have been introduced and that Republicans have attempted to pass - this while claiming that jobs & the economy is supposedly their #1 issue.
    My bad then. Your "how about a government... " post did not sound like you were just advocating awareness but expressing disdain for a government that allows all to raise their voice and be heard.

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  22. #80
    Democrats are people too imbondz's Avatar
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    Re: The entire moral landscape has changed

    Quote Originally Posted by DraftBoy View Post
    Belief yes, moral conviction no. Massive difference.
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