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Thread: Why Antarctic sea ice grows as Arctic melts

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    Registered User MidnightVoice's Avatar
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    Why Antarctic sea ice grows as Arctic melts

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...arctic-sea-ice

    The mystery of the expansion of sea ice around Antarctica, at the same time as global warming is melting swaths of Arctic sea ice, has been solved using data from US military satellites.

    Two decades of measurements show that changing wind patterns around Antarctica have caused a small increase in sea ice, the result of cold winds off the continent blowing ice away from the coastline.

    "Until now these changes in ice drift were only speculated upon using computer models," said Paul Holland at the British Antarctic Survey. "Our study of direct satellite observations shows the complexity of climate change.

    "The Arctic is losing sea ice five times faster than the Antarctic is gaining it, so, on average, the Earth is losing sea ice very quickly. There is no inconsistency between our results and global warming."
    What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof ~ Christopher Hitchens

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    Go Sabres!! Gilly's Avatar
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    Re: Why Antarctic sea ice grows as Arctic melts

    , however you can justify it I guess...
    If you like your health care plan, you will be able to keep your health care plan. Period. No one will take it away. No matter what.
    President Obama July/ 2009,

    ...

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    One Bills Drive, Georgia - 871 miles south of Orchard Park gebobs's Avatar
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    Re: Why Antarctic sea ice grows as Arctic melts

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    , however you can justify it I guess...
    Scientist say explain. Ignoramuses say justify.
    Gailey's history. He just doesn't know it yet.

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    Re: Why Antarctic sea ice grows as Arctic melts

    I don't see how you can have an informed opinion about something if you can't read it. The link to the article states you can rent it for $4 or buy the journal article for $32.

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    Registered User MST3KBillsfan's Avatar
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    Re: Why Antarctic sea ice grows as Arctic melts

    Quote Originally Posted by Tagir View Post
    I don't see how you can have an informed opinion about something if you can't read it. The link to the article states you can rent it for $4 or buy the journal article for $32.
    I can read it, and I haven't had a subscription to the Guardian since their digital archives were taken down in late July. That being said, the link works at least for me. However, I'll be a sport and post some more of the article:

    The rest of the article: Starting where the OP's coverage left off:

    The extent of sea ice is of global importance because the bright ice reflects sunlight far more than the ocean that melting uncovers, meaning temperature rises still further.
    This summer saw a record low in Arctic sea ice since satellite measurements began 30 years ago. Holland said the changing pattern of sea ice at both poles would also affect global ocean circulation, with unknown effects. He noted that while Antarctic sea ice was growing, the Antarctic ice cap the glacier and snow pack on the continent was losing mass, with the fresh water flowing into the ocean.
    The research on Antarctic sea ice, published in Nature Geoscience, revealed large regional variations. In places where warm winds blowing from the tropics towards Antarctica had become stronger, sea ice was being lost rapidly. "In some areas, such as the Bellingshausen Sea, the sea ice is being lost as fast as in the Arctic," said Holland.
    But in other areas, sea ice was being added as sea water left behind ice being blown away from the coast froze. The net effect is that there has been an extra 17,000 sq km of sea ice each year since 1978 about a tenth of a percent of the maximum sea ice cover.
    Antarctica is a continent surrounded by an ocean, whereas the Arctic is an ocean surrounded by a continent. For that reason, said Holland, sea ice was not able to expand by the same mechanism in the Arctic as at the southern pole, because if winds pushed the ice away from the pole it quickly hit land.
    Holland did the research with Ron Kwok at Nasa's jet propulsion laboratory in California, where maps of sea ice movements were created from more than 5m individual daily measurements collected over 19 years. The maps showed, for the first time, the long-term changes in sea ice drift around Antarctica.
    Kwok said: "The Antarctic sea ice cover interacts with the global climate system very differently than that of the Arctic, and these results highlight the sensitivity of the Antarctic ice coverage to changes in the strength of the winds around the continent."
    Last edited by MST3KBillsfan; 11-13-2012 at 07:23 AM.

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    Dances With Buffaloes Ingtar33's Avatar
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    Re: Why Antarctic sea ice grows as Arctic melts

    I don't think any rational person can debate the earth has been in a general warming trend since the early 17th century... as to what's causing it... the science on CO2 remains the weakest point in the man caused global warming argument. That's not to say man caused global warming isn't true, just that i've seen too much convincing research that leads me to question it.
    Predicted Bills Record 5-11
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    You know what really sucks? We're now approaching a level of sustained craptitude not seen in the NFL since the pre-Plumber Cardinals or pre-Sanders Lions. Yeah... being a Bills fan really sucks right now.

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    Registered User sukie's Avatar
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    Re: Why Antarctic sea ice grows as Arctic melts

    it's water vapor increased by the .004% of the atmosphere that is man made CO2 ... where have you been?

    - - - Updated - - -

    it's water vapor increased by the .004% of the atmosphere that is man made CO2 ... where have you been?

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    Registered User MidnightVoice's Avatar
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    Re: Why Antarctic sea ice grows as Arctic melts

    Quote Originally Posted by Ingtar33 View Post
    That's not to say man caused global warming isn't true, just that i've seen too much convincing research that leads me to question it.
    That is strange, as I have seen close to zero convincing research that questions it!

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    i appear missing JoeMama's Avatar
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    Re: Why Antarctic sea ice grows as Arctic melts

    Quote Originally Posted by gebobs View Post
    Scientist say explain. Ignoramuses say justify.
    I love how right wingers hate science ON AN INTERNET FORUM.

    The miracle of science built computers, created the internet, and the air conditioned abode their fat asses are sitting in, but they don't like the parts of science that make them uncomfortable about idiotic beliefs.

    The irony is too thick. I can't wade through it.

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    Dances With Buffaloes Ingtar33's Avatar
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    Re: Why Antarctic sea ice grows as Arctic melts

    Quote Originally Posted by MidnightVoice View Post
    That is strange, as I have seen close to zero convincing research that questions it!
    the science on CO2 has long been the weakest link in the argument. The problem is there is no actual historical correlation between increased CO2 causing rising temps. There is plenty historical data that shows increased global temps CAUSE increased atmospheric CO2 (most of the world's CO2 is trapped in ice, so naturally as temps warm and ice melts, the levels of CO2 in the atmosphere increase).

    CO2 makes up so little of the atmosphere it's influence on global temps is miniscule, i remember one physicist who pointed out that statistically speaking, according to it's "greenhouse" properties and concentration in the atmosphere, CO2's effect on global temps is statistically similar to an adult man spitting into the face of a category 5 hurricane.

    The problem is, the connection between CO2 and temps was incorrectly identified 30 years ago. Scientific research into sea ice was in it's early stages at the time, and they found an apparent correlation between temps and CO2 concentration. At the time the science seemed to indicate that there was a direct correlation. However, as technology and techniques have been refined that initial correlation has been largely discredited, as it's now clear CO2 levels have tailed global temperature increases by an average of 50 years... in short CO2 increase in the atmosphere wasn't the cause of past warming trends but the result of it.

    However, that initial correlation (as false as it was) lead to further research which has reveled CO2 does have greenhouse gas properties. Which leads to the crux of the situation, for the first time (according to ice cores) CO2 is now at an unnaturally high concentration in the atmosphere, higher then the global temperature alone can explain. And because CO2 has greenhouse properties the question remains how much of an effect on global temperatures can it have?

    The math and current science seems to indicate "a lot" to "not much" to "nothing"... because that science is so fractured with no clear answer, CO2 remains the weakest link in the "man made" global warming argument at this time.

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    Hall of Fame Zoner coastal's Avatar
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    Re: Why Antarctic sea ice grows as Arctic melts

    Is it me or are the chicks on the weather channel getting hotter?

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    Registered User sukie's Avatar
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    Re: Why Antarctic sea ice grows as Arctic melts

    Oh jeez... Here we go.

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    i appear missing JoeMama's Avatar
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    Re: Why Antarctic sea ice grows as Arctic melts

    Quote Originally Posted by coastal View Post
    Is it me or are the chicks on the weather channel getting hotter?
    It's evolution, baby.

    Chicks are always getting hotter.

    Frankly, I'm mad at my mother for giving birth to me in the 80s.

    I want to be born now, assuming chicks will become even hotter in the future than they are now.

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    coastal (11-14-2012)

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    One Bills Drive, Georgia - 871 miles south of Orchard Park gebobs's Avatar
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    Re: Why Antarctic sea ice grows as Arctic melts

    Quote Originally Posted by Ingtar33 View Post
    the science on CO2 has long been the weakest link in the argument. The problem is there is no actual historical correlation between increased CO2 causing rising temps.
    This is one reason why the current phenomenon is called anthropogenic climate change.

    There is plenty historical data that shows increased global temps CAUSE increased atmospheric CO2 (most of the world's CO2 is trapped in ice, so naturally as temps warm and ice melts, the levels of CO2 in the atmosphere increase).
    Yes. This is a new phenomenon.

    And though CO2 may not have caused historical warming periods, it did amplify the warming.

    CO2 makes up so little of the atmosphere it's influence on global temps is miniscule
    Argument from personal incredulity noted. This is wrong on so many levels that I'll just point out a few. CO2 is not the only atmospheric component contribution to warming. There's also nitrous oxide, methane, PFCs, HFCs, sulfur hexafluoride. Each has different IR reflectivity. Methane is among the worst and is being released by the gigatonnes as tundra melts and decomposes.

    And it doesn't matter that these are trace gases. What matters is the relative increase in their concentration. In the last 50 years, CO2 in the atmosphere has gone up 26% to nearly 400 ppm. In 30 years, atmospheric methane has risen by over 30% to about 1800 ppb, more than the double the pre-industrial baseline of 750 ppb.

    And small things can have big effects e.g. without atmospheric ozone, at just 2-8 ppm, we'd all be crispy critters.

    i remember one physicist who pointed out that statistically speaking, according to it's "greenhouse" properties and concentration in the atmosphere, CO2's effect on global temps is statistically similar to an adult man spitting into the face of a category 5 hurricane.
    You don't say. Gee, was his name Tim Ball?
    Last edited by gebobs; 11-13-2012 at 02:22 PM.

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    coastal (11-14-2012)

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    Registered User MidnightVoice's Avatar
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    Re: Why Antarctic sea ice grows as Arctic melts

    Quote Originally Posted by Ingtar33 View Post

    CO2 makes up so little of the atmosphere it's influence on global temps is miniscule,
    This belief is my hope for the acceptance of climate change in the US. The wingnuts and Republicans who believe this will think that a few micrograms of a drug can't possibly solve their problems as it is just a drop in the ocean compared to their body weight, so will take 100 times too much and kill themselves

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    Registered User sukie's Avatar
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    Re: Why Antarctic sea ice grows as Arctic melts

    Quote Originally Posted by MidnightVoice View Post
    This belief is my hope for the acceptance of climate change in the US. The wingnuts and Republicans who believe this will think that a few micrograms of a drug can't possibly solve their problems as it is just a drop in the ocean compared to their body weight, so will take 100 times too much and kill themselves
    What is the CO2 concentration in the atmosphere? .04 percent? what percentage of that number is man contributed CO2? 3-4 % of total CO2?

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    One Bills Drive, Georgia - 871 miles south of Orchard Park gebobs's Avatar
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    Re: Why Antarctic sea ice grows as Arctic melts

    Quote Originally Posted by sukie View Post
    What is the CO2 concentration in the atmosphere? .04 percent? what percentage of that number is man contributed CO2? 3-4 % of total CO2?
    Jesus, I thought you were some smart guy with your cancer treatments. This is so pathetically ignorant that I suggest you delete the post. You're making the same mistake that Ingtar made.

    If you have a bank account that has $100 and you get a 4% return, that's peanuts right? But add 4% per year over 20 years and and you've doubled your money.

    Just so with CO2. The pre-industrial baseline is 260-280 ppm. After 200 years of accelerating human activity and GHG emissions, the concentration is now nearly 400 ppm.

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    Registered User sukie's Avatar
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    Re: Why Antarctic sea ice grows as Arctic melts

    Quote Originally Posted by gebobs View Post
    Jesus, I thought you were some smart guy with your cancer treatments. This is so pathetically ignorant that I suggest you delete the post. You're making the same mistake that Ingtar made.

    If you have a bank account that has $100 and you get a 4% return, that's peanuts right? But add 4% per year over 20 years and and you've doubled your money.

    Just so with CO2. The pre-industrial baseline is 260-280 ppm. After 200 years of accelerating human activity and GHG emissions, the concentration is now nearly 400 ppm.
    100 dollars getting .04 % but only 3% of that .04 % is added... You make it sound as if CO2 will become 10-15% of the atmosphere quickly which is innaccurate

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    Too sober for this... mysticsoto's Avatar
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    Re: Why Antarctic sea ice grows as Arctic melts

    Quote Originally Posted by sukie View Post
    100 dollars getting .04 % but only 3% of that .04 % is added... You make it sound as if CO2 will become 10-15% of the atmosphere quickly which is innaccurate
    Does it matter if the compounding effect is enough to affect our weather and future temperatures along with a host of other issues (water level rise, food chain effects, etc) ?

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    Registered User sukie's Avatar
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    Re: Why Antarctic sea ice grows as Arctic melts

    you cannot stop or even reverse this miniscule addition of CO2... you can halve it but it is still a net increase.

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