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Thread: USS Carl Vinson Crew Did NOT Witness Osama's "Burial At Sea"

  1. #201
    CIA-MIC profiteer extraordinaire Muktar al-Portlandi's Avatar
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    Re: USS Carl Vinson Crew Did NOT Witness Osama's "Burial At Sea"

    Quote Originally Posted by Morpheus View Post
    And what might they be? Do tell.
    If you've ever been to Mecca, it's obvious.

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    Too sober for this... mysticsoto's Avatar
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    Re: USS Carl Vinson Crew Did NOT Witness Osama's "Burial At Sea"

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    Americans didn't focus on foreign affairs and terrorism because Obama ripped the issue out of the hands of Republicans with the "killing" of Bin Laden and Al Awlaki and the hyped drone attacks.

    Remember 4 years ago how McCain volunteered to follow Bin Laden to the gates of Hell to get him?

    Now Al Qaeda is so useless there only purpose is to add name recognition to bit players like Ansar al Sharia.

    Kudos to Obama for playing it perfectly.
    So by your definition of what you think Obama won the election for this time...shouldn't McCain have won 4 yrs ago ?

  3. #203
    Registered User Morpheus's Avatar
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    Re: USS Carl Vinson Crew Did NOT Witness Osama's "Burial At Sea"

    Quote Originally Posted by Berger-boy View Post
    If you've ever been to Mecca, it's obvious.
    I think I know the explanation already. I just want to read it first.

  4. #204
    CIA-MIC profiteer extraordinaire Muktar al-Portlandi's Avatar
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    Re: USS Carl Vinson Crew Did NOT Witness Osama's "Burial At Sea"

    Quote Originally Posted by Morpheus View Post
    I think I know the explanation already. I just want to read it first.
    Btw I said to Rick in the box "f you and anyone who looks like you"

  5. #205
    CIA-MIC profiteer extraordinaire Muktar al-Portlandi's Avatar
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    Re: USS Carl Vinson Crew Did NOT Witness Osama's "Burial At Sea"

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    Americans didn't focus on foreign affairs and terrorism because Obama ripped the issue out of the hands of Republicans with the "killing" of Bin Laden and Al Awlaki and the hyped drone attacks.

    Remember 4 years ago how McCain volunteered to follow Bin Laden to the gates of Hell to get him?

    Now Al Qaeda is so useless there only purpose is to add name recognition to bit players like Ansar al Sharia.

    Kudos to Obama for playing it perfectly.
    I have to say your ability to weave a tapestry of buh-shi has no equal. It's as if you're in touch with a special source of cosmic energy.

  6. #206
    Registered User IlluminatusUIUC's Avatar
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    Re: USS Carl Vinson Crew Did NOT Witness Osama's "Burial At Sea"

    Quote Originally Posted by Morpheus View Post
    So, let me ask you this. Is there anything regarding this event that you found "unusual" in the sense that it made you wonder "why did they do it that way"?
    The only thing I can recall at this moment is that I found it odd that there were stories about bin Laden's supposed porn collection. I read an article claiming it was a deliberate attempt to undermine him posthumously, but I found it a bizarre thing to be covered in such detail.
    "I love both Dan and Wendy. I love those guys. They work so hard. The center-quarterback relationship is a pretty special one. I've got my hands on their butts probably more than their wives, so it's a pretty unique trust and relationship you have."
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    Billszone 2013 Prediction Contest winner!

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    Re: USS Carl Vinson Crew Did NOT Witness Osama's "Burial At Sea"

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    Still waiting for the evidence that convinced you that doesn't convince me, and please, don't hide behind Matt Bissonette's book.
    Often, I have other things to do that preclude me from satisfying your schedule.

    The evidence is as follows:

    There was a very high risk mission launched into a foreign country to do this. It involved a specially selected group of very experienced Seals who trained extensively in North Carolina. If you wanted to stage a ruse, it would have been much easier to do, with far less consequences. The results of the extraction included losing an up to then unknown piece of stealth technology, a helicopter, and very nearly an entire Seal team.
    The mission risked a fair chance that the intruding strike force would have bee detected and killed.

    Left behind at the scene was not only a significant of evidence, but a dead courier known to be Bin Laden's contact, two of his wives, one injured, and his children.
    After very brief questioning by strike team members, these were in custody of the Pakistani government, who had a lot of motivation to claim it wasn't Bin Laden. Nothing has ever come out placing any doubt on the people turned over to that gov.
    Further, the Pakistani gov has harassed individuals thought to have been a part of the US determining his whereabouts, and confirming the likelihood he was in that compound.
    The CIA had months and months of direct observation of the individual they eventually concluded was Bin Laden. In fact, the chief caseworker claimed 100% certainty.
    The handling of his remains was the best option. In spite of erroneous claims, officers in the Vinson task Force have authored items that claim what happened is what happened. There is no evidence of any prohibition of viewing the burial. There would simply be no reason to make it a ship "event." A great number of helicopters land on carriers at various times. Their contents are not known to most of the crew, or even viewed as interesting.
    Groups sympathetic to Bin Laden have, in essence, confirmed his death, and did so in a very specific time frame.

    Nobody who participated in the mission has had anything to say doubting the book you refer to. These guys are not hidden, and after this amount of time, if there was any significant disagreement, it would leak. If it was a gov publication, the excoriation of Biden would not have been included, which it was.

    I'm not sure where the pictures are, but there are plenty, just as there is a bunch of dna material. The Pentagon is not the organization that would be in custody of this, the CIA would. This was a CIA mission, and the Pentagon is not the ultimate repository of evidence. That's not what it does.

    Anyway, from notification of the mission, through training, through a very detailed description of the event, through the extraction and delivery of the body to the CIA, all of this is in the book you arbitrarily want to remove from consideration.

    I'm only going to do this once, with maybe some follow up if you suggest something really unusual. In other words, I'm not going to watch you do something similar to what you have done regarding 9-11, which is a decade long treatise which states that you cannot understand the components of such a thing, and therefor conclude it is a scam. I'm way beyond having any interest in what you think.

  8. #208
    Jimmy Crack Corn Spartacus's Avatar
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    Re: USS Carl Vinson Crew Did NOT Witness Osama's "Burial At Sea"

    Quote Originally Posted by gameboy View Post
    Often, I have other things to do that preclude me from satisfying your schedule.
    You did okay. Now let's parse what you have to say...

    Quote Originally Posted by gameboy View Post
    The evidence is as follows:
    Ahem... YOUR evidence. Whether it's THE evidence is to be determined...

    Quote Originally Posted by gameboy View Post
    There was a very high risk mission launched into a foreign country to do this.
    What's high risk about it if the Pakistanis are on board, or are we in gameboy's fantasyland where no one ever says one thing while they do another?

    Quote Originally Posted by gameboy View Post
    It involved a specially selected group of very experienced Seals who trained extensively in North Carolina.
    Of course it would. I'm sure each and every one of them thought it was a real mission.

    Quote Originally Posted by gameboy View Post
    If you wanted to stage a ruse, it would have been much easier to do, with far less consequences.
    This way seems to have done just fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by gameboy View Post
    The results of the extraction included losing an up to then unknown piece of stealth technology, a helicopter, and very nearly an entire Seal team.
    Yes on the helicopter, but big deal and the Seals were only in danger of their own ****ups.

    Quote Originally Posted by gameboy View Post
    The mission risked a fair chance that the intruding strike force would have bee detected and killed.
    Baloney. The Paks stuck the Bin Laden double right under their noses to ensure no one would interfere.

    Quote Originally Posted by gameboy View Post
    Left behind at the scene was not only a significant of evidence....
    Set dressing and props worked up by the art department...

    ,
    Quote Originally Posted by gameboy View Post
    but a dead courier known to be Bin Laden's contact, two of his wives, one injured, and his children.
    Patsies. Have we seen hide or hair of these wives and children?

    Quote Originally Posted by gameboy View Post
    After very brief questioning by strike team members, these were in custody of the Pakistani government, who had a lot of motivation to claim it wasn't Bin Laden.
    Once again, you are assuming the Paks weren't aware of what was going on. Of course they knew. They aren't stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by gameboy View Post
    Nothing has ever come out placing any doubt on the people turned over to that gov.
    So what? Were any of them investigated or was a statement of their involvement the last thing we heard about them?

    Quote Originally Posted by gameboy View Post
    Further, the Pakistani gov has harassed individuals thought to have been a part of the US determining his whereabouts, and confirming the likelihood he was in that compound.
    As far as I know it's individual singular and who knows what sort of deal he's worked out? You DO realize that the Pakistanis need some plausible deniability for the home audience, don't you think? And you must admit, the Pakis have suffered no significant downside to their supposed harboring of Bin Laden. The Pakis and Saudis went along with this plan willingly, if not happily.

    Quote Originally Posted by gameboy View Post
    The CIA had months and months of direct observation of the individual they eventually concluded was Bin Laden.
    This is one of the chief stupidities. Once they found him, if it was really him, do you think they'd wait months to get him? They don't know his plans. He could disappear overnight. The fact they weren't worried he'd abscond suggests strongly they KNEW he wasn't going anywhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by gameboy View Post
    In fact, the chief caseworker claimed 100% certainty.
    Oh, gee, who would EVER doubt the CHIEF CIA CASEWORKER! WTF was I thinking?

    Quote Originally Posted by gameboy View Post
    The handling of his remains was the best option. In spite of erroneous claims, officers in the Vinson task Force have authored items that claim what happened is what happened.
    So, what to believe? PR statements by officers covered by the official secrets act(s) or private e-mails no one expected to be read? Hmmmm....

    Quote Originally Posted by gameboy View Post
    There is no evidence of any prohibition of viewing the burial. There would simply be no reason to make it a ship "event." A great number of helicopters land on carriers at various times. Their contents are not known to most of the crew, or even viewed as interesting.
    Once again, private emails or agenda driven PR?

    Quote Originally Posted by gameboy View Post
    Groups sympathetic to Bin Laden have, in essence, confirmed his death, and did so in a very specific time frame.
    Right. Shadowy groups of bull****ters confirm bull****. Who WOULDN'T believe it?

    Quote Originally Posted by gameboy View Post
    Nobody who participated in the mission has had anything to say doubting the book you refer to. These guys are not hidden...
    Really? Who are they and why aren't they worried about OBL's jihadist pals popping a cap in their asses? They would be cavalier about their own safety only if they knew it wasn't an issue.

    ,
    Quote Originally Posted by gameboy View Post
    and after this amount of time, if there was any significant disagreement, it would leak.
    Or they are merely doing what they've been told. You know, following orders? Isn't that what the military does?

    Quote Originally Posted by gameboy View Post
    If it was a gov publication, the excoriation of Biden would not have been included, which it was.
    You have no reason to state this. Biden took one (a flea bite) for the team. Remember, plausible deniability.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plausible_deniability

    Plausible deniability
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Jump to: navigation, search

    Plausible deniability is a term coined by the CIA during the Kennedy administration to describe the withholding of information from senior officials in order to protect them from repercussions in the event that illegal or unpopular activities by the CIA became public knowledge.

    The term most often refers to the denial of blame in (formal or informal) chains of command, where senior figures assign responsibility to the lower ranks, and records of instructions given do not exist or are inaccessible, meaning independent confirmation of responsibility for the action is nearly impossible. In the case that illegal or otherwise disreputable and unpopular activities become public, high-ranking officials may deny any awareness of such act or any connection to the agents used to carry out such acts. The lack of evidence to the contrary ostensibly makes the denial plausible, that is, credible. The term typically implies forethought, such as intentionally setting up the conditions to plausibly avoid responsibility for one's (future) actions or knowledge.

    In politics and espionage, deniability refers to the ability of a "powerful player" or intelligence agency to avoid "blowback" by secretly arranging for an action to be taken on their behalf by a third party ostensibly unconnected with the major player. In political campaigns, plausible deniability enables candidates to stay "clean" and denounce third-party advertisements that use unethical approaches or potentially libellous innuendo.

    Quote Originally Posted by gameboy View Post
    I'm not sure where the pictures are, but there are plenty, just as there is a bunch of dna material.
    You don't know where it is but there are plenty. Right. And a bunch of DNA material. Sure. If you say so.

    Quote Originally Posted by gameboy View Post
    The Pentagon is not the organization that would be in custody of this, the CIA would. This was a CIA mission, and the Pentagon is not the ultimate repository of evidence. That's not what it does.
    Not a Pentagon mission? Uh, I didn't think there were CIA Seals and CIA Stealth helicopters and CIA destroyers.

    Don't be ridiculous. The CIA found Bin Laden but I'm sure they don't tell the Navy how to do their jobs.

    Quote Originally Posted by gameboy View Post
    Anyway, from notification of the mission, through training, through a very detailed description of the event, through the extraction and delivery of the body to the CIA, all of this is in the book you arbitrarily want to remove from consideration.
    This was the other completely stupid part. Bin Laden is found, the big brains spend months batting around different extraction scenarios while the Seals practice getting in and out of helicopters, and after all that, they finally decide to....FLY IN, KILL BIN LADEN, THROW HIS BODY IN THE CHOPPER AND FLY OUT!" Man, they sure have some big brains in the CIA and Pentagon. And all through this, no one ever says, "Hey guys, why don't we go get him right away? He might ESCAPE!" LOL! And Americans buy this crap.

    Quote Originally Posted by gameboy View Post
    I'm only going to do this once, with maybe some follow up if you suggest something really unusual. In other words, I'm not going to watch you do something similar to what you have done regarding 9-11, which is a decade long treatise which states that you cannot understand the components of such a thing, and therefor conclude it is a scam. I'm way beyond having any interest in what you think.
    Once was all I needed to prove my point. You've got nothing. Nada. Bupkis.

    Just what you've been told, like I said.
    Last edited by Spartacus; 11-30-2012 at 02:44 PM.
    boisterous hubris, arrogance, self deception, conspiracy, mud slinging mixed with a heavy dose of self righteousness.

  9. Post thanked by:

    Morpheus (11-30-2012)

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    Jimmy Crack Corn Spartacus's Avatar
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    Re: USS Carl Vinson Crew Did NOT Witness Osama's "Burial At Sea"

    Quote Originally Posted by Berger-boy View Post
    I have to say your ability to weave a tapestry of buh-shi has no equal. It's as if you're in touch with a special source of cosmic energy.
    You should make an alliance with draftboy.

    He hates imagination as well. Says it's not "real" thinking.

  11. #210
    Jimmy Crack Corn Spartacus's Avatar
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    Re: USS Carl Vinson Crew Did NOT Witness Osama's "Burial At Sea"

    Quote Originally Posted by mysticsoto View Post
    So by your definition of what you think Obama won the election for this time...shouldn't McCain have won 4 yrs ago ?
    No.

    Different circumstances.

  12. #211
    CIA-MIC profiteer extraordinaire Muktar al-Portlandi's Avatar
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    Re: USS Carl Vinson Crew Did NOT Witness Osama's "Burial At Sea"

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    You should make an alliance with draftboy.

    He hates imagination as well. Says it's not "real" thinking.
    Why would I hate imagination? I wouldn't whore myself to it.

  13. #212
    Jimmy Crack Corn Spartacus's Avatar
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    Re: USS Carl Vinson Crew Did NOT Witness Osama's "Burial At Sea"

    Quote Originally Posted by Berger-boy View Post
    Why would I hate imagination?
    Plenty of reasons.

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    Registered User Morpheus's Avatar
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    Re: USS Carl Vinson Crew Did NOT Witness Osama's "Burial At Sea"

    Quote Originally Posted by Berger-boy View Post
    Btw I said to Rick in the box "f you and anyone who looks like you"
    Good for you. That man is an uber douche. I'm surprised that he can even spoon feed himself.

  15. #214
    CIA-MIC profiteer extraordinaire Muktar al-Portlandi's Avatar
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    Re: USS Carl Vinson Crew Did NOT Witness Osama's "Burial At Sea"

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    Plenty of reasons.
    The

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    Re: USS Carl Vinson Crew Did NOT Witness Osama's "Burial At Sea"

    You know Sparty, long ago I lost interest in trying to discuss some of your views that I find particularly uninformed, so I'm not going to engage you in this thread. There are a few things that scream out for assistance though, and I would be neglecting my duty to not comment on them.

    The most grossly ill informed view that you seem to have is that the Pakistanis knew this was coming.

    You need to go back and reread the data from Clinton's response to the African Embassy attacks. They told the Pakistanis this was coming because of overflight considerations. The ISI, by all accounts a grossly unreliable intel partner, informed whomever would havebeen damaged, and a total waste of a lot of money ensued.

    Now, and I really need you to be objective about this, do you think the US was ever going to inform the Pakistani government of a strike involving scores of US military personnel conducted in one of their cities?
    We aren't talking cruise missiles or drone strikes here, which they don;t tell them anymore anyway, we are talking about risking scores of the best Special Services folks the US has.
    You would have to be absolutely out of your mind to think they would ever tell them about this.

    Regarding the surveillance of Bin Laden, the "Pacer," as he was called was indeed being watched for months, and there still was no surety of his identity until he was tits up with a hole in his head.

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    Jimmy Crack Corn Spartacus's Avatar
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    Re: USS Carl Vinson Crew Did NOT Witness Osama's "Burial At Sea"

    Quote Originally Posted by gameboy View Post
    You know Sparty, long ago I lost interest in trying to discuss some of your views that I find particularly uninformed, so I'm not going to engage you in this thread. There are a few things that scream out for assistance though, and I would be neglecting my duty to not comment on them.
    Heavens! I would never dream of stopping you from doing your duty! Fire away!

    Quote Originally Posted by gameboy View Post
    The most grossly ill informed view that you seem to have is that the Pakistanis knew this was coming.
    Really? Because you say so?

    Quote Originally Posted by gameboy View Post
    You need to go back and reread the data from Clinton's response to the African Embassy attacks. They told the Pakistanis this was coming because of overflight considerations. The ISI, by all accounts a grossly unreliable intel partner, informed whomever would havebeen damaged, and a total waste of a lot of money ensued.
    Huh? Are you kidding me? You dredge up an example from the 90's (no link to the story BTW, but I'm sure it's right-wing gospel) and use it to claim the Pakistanis weren't in on it? Get with the times pal. Different millenium, different players, different motives, different incentives. Don't be ridiculous.

    Quote Originally Posted by gameboy View Post
    Now, and I really need you to be objective about this, do you think the US was ever going to inform the Pakistani government of a strike involving scores of US military personnel conducted in one of their cities?
    Why not? It's the best way to have it go off without a hitch. It's in the Pakistani's interests to do Obama a favor. After all, have there been ANY repercussions against Pakistan for supposedly "harboring" OBL? Of course not. Just some mild tsk tsks. The Pakistanis don't mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by gameboy View Post
    We aren't talking cruise missiles or drone strikes here, which they don;t tell them anymore anyway, we are talking about risking scores of the best Special Services folks the US has.
    If you do it with the Pak's approval, it reduces the risk significantly. Is that so hard to understand?

    Quote Originally Posted by gameboy View Post
    You would have to be absolutely out of your mind to think they would ever tell them about this.
    You have to be a fool if you think they didn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by gameboy View Post
    Regarding the surveillance of Bin Laden, the "Pacer," as he was called was indeed being watched for months, and there still was no surety of his identity until he was tits up with a hole in his head.
    Oooh, the "Pacer". An irrelevant detail but it provides operational cred, huh?

    And you're trying to tell me that the CIA can watch a guy for months but it's only AFTER they shot his face off that they were sure it was OBL?

    Seriously?



    You DO realize Pakistan is a free country, don't you? Even Obama spent time wandering around there in the 80s with no problem.

    So, even IF it was the real OBL and he was spotted in this house in Pakistan, it would take no more than 24 hours to confirm his identity and another 24 hours to snatch him.

    At the most.

    This months of surveillance and months of training to fly in and fly out is UTTERLY ABSURD, but if you want to pimp the absurd, it sure won't be the first time.

    Face it pal, you're in over your head and no amount of bluster, insults and fist banging can save you.

    My assertion still stands.

    THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT OBL WAS THE GUY THEY KILLED AND TOSSED IN THE OCEAN, OTHER THAN THE WORD OF THE US GOV'T.

    And I'm sure you can guess what I think that's worth.

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    Re: USS Carl Vinson Crew Did NOT Witness Osama's "Burial At Sea"

    Quote Originally Posted by gameboy View Post

    Nobody who participated in the mission has had anything to say doubting the book you refer to. These guys are not hidden, and after this amount of time, if there was any significant disagreement, it would leak.
    I guess you missed this...

    http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slate...team_six_.html

    E-Book Claims Navy SEAL Wrote OBL Book After Slight

    By Josh Voorhees
    Posted Monday, Sept. 3, 2012



    No Easy Day, the Navy SEAL-authored account of the Osama Bin Laden raid, is set to go on sale tomorrow.

    The book has already garnered large doses of media attention for a variety of reasons, including the Pentagon's threat of legal action against the author, the fact that its version of events reportedly differs from the Obama administration's official account, and because of Fox News' controversial decision to ID author Matt Bissonnette, the SEAL Team Six member who wrote the book under the pseudonym Mark Owen.

    But, thanks to the new era of instant-publishing offered by the world of e-books, a group of other Special Ops veterans have managed to get out in front of the much-hyped released with their own account—of what they say is the "politics" behind the book—that claims that Bissonnette is breaking "the code of silence" honored by most commandos because of "bad blood" with his former unit.

    ...more...

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    Re: USS Carl Vinson Crew Did NOT Witness Osama's "Burial At Sea"

    You seem to be having a difficult time understanding what has occurred, and an even more difficult time using facts to make a valid point.

    I have no doubt that the publication of this book irritated a lot of people. It did me.

    "Breaking the code of silence," while really, really undesirable, in no way refutes what is in the book.
    Heretofore undisputed facts are, so far anyway, undisputed, regardless of the lack of judgement indicated by publishing them.

    I wish it wasn't published. I think it was a bad idea. I also know that there isn't much out there to refute it, anything I've seen, so I don't see how "irritated people," makes any point you may have.

    You seem to miss the point that the US would never tell the Pakistani gov of a mission like this, with great risk, involving many US lives, and if things went bad, many, many more Pakistani lives.

    By the way. Your most recent post in this thread, the one in response to me, indicates a gross ignorance in how something like this would be done, and beyond that, your claims are in conflict with the details.

    I'll leave those errors for you to figure out, but you really are getting more and more pedestrian, actually juvenile, in your responses.
    You are trending very badly, and I suspect that most are like me-it used to be interesting to post conflict with you.
    It really isn't, anymore. It is like discussing things with a high schooler.
    Last edited by gameboy; 12-01-2012 at 11:14 PM.

  20. #219
    Jimmy Crack Corn Spartacus's Avatar
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    Re: USS Carl Vinson Crew Did NOT Witness Osama's "Burial At Sea"

    Quote Originally Posted by gameboy View Post
    You seem to be having a difficult time understanding what has occurred, and an even more difficult time using facts to make a valid point.

    I have no doubt that the publication of this book irritated a lot of people. It did me.

    "Breaking the code of silence," while really, really undesirable, in no way refutes what is in the book.
    And it doesn't verify it either. So what? All the Tom Clancy derring-do described so breathlessly still doesn't dispute the FACT that there is NO PROOF that the guy that was killed was Bin Laden. Whether you are irritated or not. But if you want to believe it on the word of some guy who betrayed his country, his colleagues and his commander in chief for admittedly political reasons, then all I can do is shake my head at your credulity.

    Quote Originally Posted by gameboy View Post
    Heretofore undisputed facts are, so far anyway, undisputed, regardless of the lack of judgement indicated by publishing them.
    Disputing any of it would require revealing what really happened. The fact that people haven't been willing to reveal supposedly classified material to prove MB wrong in NO WAY implies what he has written is 100% gospel. You're begging the question again.

    Quote Originally Posted by gameboy View Post
    You seem to miss the point that the US would never tell the Pakistani gov of a mission like this, with great risk, involving many US lives, and if things went bad, many, many more Pakistani lives.
    This is completely idiotic which is, I presume, the reason you're neglecting to explain WHY the US and Pakistan, long term ALLIES, would have a problem working together on this. Explain yourself or be revealed as the dumbass bull****ter you really are...

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    Re: USS Carl Vinson Crew Did NOT Witness Osama's "Burial At Sea"

    You clearly have not read the book, so your comments are completely dis interesting to me, and these "dissection," posts you habitually write about matters you don't seem to know anything about are also a waste of time.

    I have completely lost interest in your views.

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