Vanek right back to his old self

[gebobs]

Re: Vanek right back to his old self

I wouldn't say he makes far fewer than anyone on the team.

No. Who is this paragon of hockey skills? Let's start with passing. Who on this team is a better passer? Other than Pominville and Hodgson, no one comes close.

Offensive zone penalties are stupid no matter what.

You seem to not understand what it takes to gain and maintain zone pressure. Once you have it, you try to do whatever you can to do to keep it short of taking that penalty. But that line between forcing a defensive turnover which leads to a goal and making that mistake that leads to an offensive penalty is thin and razor thin at the professional level.

LOL But by all means, park your butt in that Barcalounger and bark out that snap count though it's now Tuesday. Hypercritical, 100% hindsight.

Vanek is the best player on the Sabres now. Don't like it? Pound salt.

[PTI]

Re: Vanek right back to his old self

Have you ever noticed the pounding he takes in front of the net? The guy is asked to be the man in the muck every game and he takes that task without hesitation. He pays the price for it too.

Besides being OK at faceoffs, that was the only Gausted was good for, take some PK time away from Vanek getting cross checked for about a minute and change and shoved around in front of the net.

[OpIv37]

Re: Vanek right back to his old self

No. Who is this paragon of hockey skills? Let's start with passing. Who on this team is a better passer? Other than Pominville and Hodgson, no one comes close.


You seem to not understand what it takes to gain and maintain zone pressure. Once you have it, you try to do whatever you can to do to keep it short of taking that penalty. But that line between forcing a defensive turnover which leads to a goal and making that mistake that leads to an offensive penalty is thin and razor thin at the professional level.

LOL But by all means, park your butt in that Barcalounger and bark out that snap count though it's now Tuesday. Hypercritical, 100% hindsight.

Vanek is the best player on the Sabres now. Don't like it? Pound salt.

If the line is so razor thin, then explain to me why there aren't more offensive zone penalties. I see maybe two a game between both teams. Seems like a lot of guys who you claim make more mistakes than Vanek don't seem to have a problem staying on the right side of that line.

And it's not being hypercritical. It's you making up excuses to defend dumb penalties by a guy you like.

WTF is wrong with people here? Yesterday I had someone telling me that it was ok for Stevie to take a delay of game for kicking the ball because it shows passion, and now I have you telling me its ok for Vanek to take offensive zone penalties. Why can't people just admit that our top guys make dumb mistakes far more than top guys should?

[gebobs]

Re: Vanek right back to his old self

If the line is so razor thin, then explain to me why there aren't more offensive zone penalties. I see maybe two a game between both teams. Seems like a lot of guys who you claim make more mistakes than Vanek don't seem to have a problem staying on the right side of that line.

First of all, unless you have some objective stats, I'm going to suspect there might be some confirmation bias going on here.

Secondly, who on the Sabres is getting all this offensive zone pressure and generating plays that result in goals more than Vanek? Vanek has nearly 7 points per 100 minutes of ice time. Hodgson is a distant second at 4.4. Ennis has 3.7. No one else has even half Vanek's scoring rate.

And it's not being hypercritical. It's you making up excuses to defend dumb penalties by a guy you like.

It is being hypercritical when you conjure up horsecrap like "he makes more stupid mistakes than anyone" without even a shred of evidence to back it up.

WTF is wrong with people here? Yesterday I had someone telling me that it was ok for Stevie to take a delay of game for kicking the ball because it shows passion, and now I have you telling me its ok for Vanek to take offensive zone penalties.

Once again, the problem may be with you. I have never once said that it's ok to take offensive zone penalties. All I've said is that it's not realistic to think that guys like Vanek aren't going to take them from time to time and that I think there's a bit of confirmation bias when you say that other top players don't.

Why can't people just admit that our top guys make dumb mistakes far more than top guys should?

I admit it freely and have never said otherwise. Obviously, the Sabres top guys aren't doing enough. But the lion's share of the problems are not Vanek as you have complained about for pages and pages of this thread.

Pominville has had scoring droughts this season that would embarrass even Vanek and regularly makes the PP an opponent's odd man rush. Hodgson has been a defensive liability all season. Miller has had games that would make Enroth look like real NHL goalie if he didn't completely blow this season. Ennis couldn't win a faceoff if his mother's life depended on it. Gerbe, other than the last week, looks lost. Stafford is invisible. Myers, Ehrhoff, and Regehr have been abysmal. I have to wonder at what the coaches are drilling when I see the Sabres constantly throw the puck along the boards only to have the opposition winger waiting for the puck or the point man pinching. Generally, the passing is atrocious. The only player whose passes are reliably tape-to-tape is Vanek.

[PTI]

Re: Vanek right back to his old self

Besides being OK at faceoffs, that was the only Gausted was good for, take some PK time away from Vanek getting cross checked for about a minute and change and shoved around in front of the net.

Meant to say Power Play in front of the net

[OpIv37]

Re: Vanek right back to his old self

For the record, I never said "Vanek makes more mistakes than anyone." Someone said that Vanek makes fewer mistakes than anyone on the team and I disagreed. I don't think he makes the most but be certainly doesn't make the least.

And I never said that other guys don't take offensive zone penalties. I just said they don't do it as frequently as Vanek. You want stats? The only Sabres fwd's that have more PIM's than Vanek are the ones that have been in fights: Foligno, Kaleta Ott and Scott.

http://sabres.nhl.com/club/stats.htm?gameType=2&season=20122013&srt=pim

[Skooby]

Re: Vanek right back to his old self

Players make mistakes but Vanek has produced much more than he has failed for our team, it shows on the stat sheets & the ice. There's also other factors that he does by setting up a play but doesn't get on the score sheet, remember that goal the other night after he shot & the rebound got pumped right back in ??

http://espn.go.com/nhl/recap?gameId=400442766

He didn't hit the sheet but he shot it to get the play started, things like that get missed by layman. I played hockey at a very high level as a kid, Niagara Scenics & above. Vanek sets plays all the time, he's a constant threat to help us score if he gets the puck. We have almost no one like that on our team besides him that has played like that, you're crazy to think he's a problem in any way shape or fashion.

For the record, previous years you might have a chance at an argument but not this year thus far. If he's healthy & playing, he's been a constant threat. How many shootouts have you watched lately where he's went first & scored ?? That puts huge pressure on our opponents, notice the SO loss to the Rangers ?? Vanek was missing, that didn't help at all.

[OpIv37]

Re: Vanek right back to his old self

This year? Vanek was awesome. For about 12 games. Then he went right back to how he was in previous years. Pointless in 6 of the last 8 before getting hurt. And it's been forever since he's had an even strength goal.

You say I might have won that argument in previous years but Vanek has been the exac same player he was in previous years for roughly 40% of the season so far.

[Skooby]

Re: Vanek right back to his old self

This year? Vanek was awesome. For about 12 games. Then he went right back to how he was in previous years. Pointless in 6 of the last 8 before getting hurt. And it's been forever since he's had an even strength goal.

You say I might have won that argument in previous years but Vanek has been the exac same player he was in previous years for roughly 40% of the season so far.

I can't remember him leading the league in scoring nearly halfway through a season or at anypoint in his career but maybe you can.

[gebobs]

Re: Vanek right back to his old self

For the record, I never said "Vanek makes more mistakes than anyone." Someone said that Vanek makes fewer mistakes than anyone on the team and I disagreed. I don't think he makes the most but be certainly doesn't make the least.

Who makes fewer? I'd like to know. And forget about a few penalties. Let's talk about the little things like passing and shooting. Who misses fewer passes? I've been watching every game and it's almost a surprise when Ennis, Gerbe, Stafford or Hecht can actually get the puck to the intended target. Heck, most of the team hardly even takes a look before throwing the puck blindly up the ice only to turn it over and get the Sabres back on their heels again.

But Vanek always looks to make a pass. But when you have hands and talent coming out the wazoo, you can be reasonably sure you can hold onto the puck before someone takes it from you. Those other guys don't have that talent or the confidence. Unfortunately, passing stats are not kept AFAIK so it's just my opinion at this point. But if assists are any indication, Vanek leads the team with 15 and some of them have been beauties.

As for shooting, Vanek again leads the team (min. 20 shots) with a 16.5% shooting percent. Only five other players with 20 or more shots have >10% accuracy. And when you lead the team in shots too, that translates to a boat load of goals. Stafford's shooting percentage is 3.4%, Foligno is 3.1%, Hecht is 2.7%. So if not burying the puck is a mistake, then these guys make a lot more mistakes than Vanek.

And I never said that other guys don't take offensive zone penalties. I just said they don't do it as frequently as Vanek.

And as I said, that comes with the territory when you are an aggressive forward. Vanek makes things happen and the other team pays. Vanek does that way more - WAY WAY MORE - than any other player on the team. If the price of that is a penalty every third game, I'm good with it.

[OpIv37]

Re: Vanek right back to his old self

Well, first, he hasn't lead the league in scoring in quite some time. Considering we are just at the halfway point now, it's disingenuous to say he led the league in scoring for nearly half the season.

Second, it's an abbreviated season. So, in reality he led the league in scoring for less than a quarter of a regular season.

I'm wondering if the hot start is due to the fact that he played overseas while most of the league didn't. He was in mid-season form while they were in preseason form. Now that the playing field is more even, he's coming back down to reality. I'll admit that's just conjecture on my part though- even if its correct there is no real way to prove it.

[gebobs]

Re: Vanek right back to his old self

OK...we get it. You think Vanek is overrated. It's your opinion. You have every right to it and seemingly nothing will dissuade you. On the other hand, I'm not going to be convinced by things like "he makes too many stupid mistakes" or "he takes too many offensive penalties". I've said it's Monday morning quarterbacking but another idiom comes to mind: throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[OpIv37]

Re: Vanek right back to his old self

OK...we get it. You think Vanek is overrated. It's your opinion. You have every right to it and seemingly nothing will dissuade you. On the other hand, I'm not going to be convinced by things like "he makes too many stupid mistakes" or "he takes too many offensive penalties". I've said it's Monday morning quarterbacking but another idiom comes to mind: throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

It's not Monday morning quarterbacking- it's the reality. You dismiss it as such because you don't want to hear that our best player makes too many mistakes. You just respond with "those are aggressive mistakes so they're ok." It's utter nonsense.

[Skooby]

Re: Vanek right back to his old self

It's not Monday morning quarterbacking- it's the reality. You dismiss it as such because you don't want to hear that our best player makes too many mistakes. You just respond with "those are aggressive mistakes so they're ok." It's utter nonsense.

Statistically speaking & after watching the games over, you're wrong on all accounts.

[OpIv37]

Re: Vanek right back to his old self

Statistically speaking & after watching the games over, you're wrong on all accounts.

No, I'm not. I've seen Vanek take multiple bad offensive zone penalties. I've seen him botch breakaways and fan when he had half the net open and fail to clear the zone. And I'm not talking about ones where he didnt really have a chance- I'm talking about plays that he should have been able to make.

The stat sheets you are referring to dont track that stuff.

And like I said, as far as PIM's he's got more of them than any fwd except the ones who fight, despite playing fewer games than many of them. So, that stat supports my assertion.

Somehow you have a misconception that if a guy had a hot streak, it means he didn't make mistakes. That's simply not true.