So by this logic Montana, Brady and others are bad passers because of draft position?Originally Posted by kishoph
So by this logic Montana, Brady and others are bad passers because of draft position?
pmoon6 (06-21-2014)
I don't think it's impossible Tuel wins the backup QB job, there's sort of no telling what any of them can or can't do a year later, including Dennis Dixon. Lewis, Tuel, or Dixon could suddenly click, step up and there you go.
It's not arm. They all have plenty of arm. Lewis and Dixon are more mobile, Tuel strikes me as classic pocket passer material, looked terrible when he had to move. Dixon backing up in Pittsburgh had improv options, like Roethlisberger is not mobile but moves, I dunno Tuel can't learn that.
Lewis looked unpolished but robust after taking stupid hits. Had an enthusiasm I liked, wasn't terrible, anyone has to admit he did better than anyone expected a practice squad UDFA Thad Lewis class of 2010 to do. I was kind of impressed by Thad Lewis for being Thad Lewis.
You sort of want a QB coach who polishes QB's, doesn't unpolish them : http://coachingroots.com/football/coaches/todd-downing
Not sure I see the magic there. Why would I or I'd be working in the NFL ? Hey, I could work in the NFL and be as bad as any coach who has ever had a career there easily.
Anyway, Manuel, Tuel, Lewis and Dixon are already unpolished so I really don't know where it's all going but suspect the worst just from habit. It's a crapshoot we'll soon find out about.
Famous Amos (06-24-2014)
checkmate
pmoon6 (06-22-2014)
Not really. It's about average, which is part of the problem. He has nothing that stands out that we can build upon.
And then what? He can be as good as Dan Orlovsky?He just needs to learn to read defenses.
Yes, on a day where every other player had a good to great day, he wouldn't have screwed it all up if he hadn't done that one thing where he screwed it all up.He would have won the Chiefs game if not for one BAD play.
You can't give every single player two seasons worth of reps to decide if they are any good, and certainly not every single UDFA who comes through the door. We signed 8 of them this year. It'd be a safe bet that all of them will be cut without even making the opening day roster. Tuel has already gotten far more of a chance to prove himself then Aaron Corp or Kenny Guitton, you can't possibly say the Bills owe him another full year.
And? He racked the vast majority up against Indy's third stringers in a single pre-season game (and still got strip-sacked in the process).
Tuel may make the roster and may even take the 2nd string job. But that doesn't mean he's any good, all it means is that the Bills didn't bring in any meaningful competition at QB.
Billszone 2013 Prediction Contest winner!
No. Now wait a minute. Especially for all you folks that defend Marrone. IF he makes this roster, you can't say "he sucked." The coaching staff liked what they saw in him TWICE - once in 2013, giving him the 2nd/3rd string spot, and again in 2014. So all you claiming that "he sucks" think you're smarter than all the coaches that made the decision twice?
The same coaching staff tht let Travaris Jackson go? I don't think so.
pmoon6 (06-22-2014)
So, again, if he makes the roster then the coaches felt that he deserved to. The Bills had every opportunity to draft most any rookie QB they wanted. They didn't. And no player is "owed" a year ever. It's produce or get out.You can't give every single player two seasons worth of reps to decide if they are any good, and certainly not every single UDFA who comes through the door. We signed 8 of them this year. It'd be a safe bet that all of them will be cut without even making the opening day roster. Tuel has already gotten far more of a chance to prove himself then Aaron Corp or Kenny Guitton, you can't possibly say the Bills owe him another full year.
Tuel only made the roster in 2013 because both the #1 and #2 QBs got injured in training camp, one of which so severely that it forced him into retirement, and the #3 QB was traded for at the very last minute. If Kolb survived TC in 2013, it's very likely that Tuel does not. And I'm not sure what Jackson has to do with anything. He's not much better than Kolb, but at least he stays healthier.
That's what I said. Tuel making the roster doesn't prove he is good, it proves we brought in no other options. Unless you consider Dennis Dixon a viable backup (spoiler alert: He is not)
Tuel didn't produce.And no player is "owed" a year ever. It's produce or get out.
The pseudo coaches and GM's are a constant source of amusement. It may even be a new psychological malady. May explain the popularity of the Madden video games where you can be your own GM. Deluded souls who think they can do a job by sitting behind a computer and judging others performance when they only see a fraction of their overall body of work.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.” ~ Theodore Roosevelt
Not true. If Kolb was healthy the Bills would not have gone out and gotten Thad Lewis. At the very least Tuel was going to the practice squad. The coaches said over and over how much they liked him. He displayed accuracy and touch last year in the preseason - the best of any active QB on the team at that time.
People seem to forget that he beat out Matt Flynn too. If he "sucked", as you claim, the Bills could have easily kept Flynn. And I don't have to remind you how much both the Seahawks and Raiders gave up to get that guy. And what he did in his brief look in Green Bay. So Tuel, who you say "sucks", has proven he's better than Travaris Jackson, Matt Flynn, Dennis Dixon in one season AND now we're reading articles about how he may take the 2nd string spot in 2014. Ok. You must be right in the face of ALL the Bills coaches that see him up close every day.That's what I said. Tuel making the roster doesn't prove he is good, it proves we brought in no other options. Unless you consider Dennis Dixon a viable backup (spoiler alert: He is not)
And I think I just killed your "no other options" argument.
MANUEL didn't produce. Tuel was an UDFA who was thrust into an unlikely role because of poor planning by Whaley & Nix. Again. IF you're going to criticize ANY QB it should squarely be EJ Manuel. He was the one that came in with all the lofty expectations and looked like a deer in the headlights.Tuel didn't produce.
Last edited by swiper; 06-22-2014 at 05:40 AM.
Yes, that's exactly what I meant.
He kind of reminds me of Joe Montana.
Well you did declare yourself a 49ers fan.
coastal (06-22-2014)
Presumably the contradictions inherent in your post were intentional.
Well certainly. Marrone can be criticized by many, and it sounds like maybe Illuminatus, for keeping Tuel and letting Jackson go. IIRC, They let go of Jackson when they had 4 healthy QBs around: he, Kolb, Manuel, and Tuel. This whole discussion again begs the question as to why they let Jackson go? He could throw the long ball and do it with accuracy better than Kolb, Manuel or Tuel. He was cheap. Tuel could have been stashed on the practice squad if the coaches wanted to keep him. They certainly could have, and should have found a roster spot for Jackson. He is >> Thad Lewis.
EDS (06-22-2014)
It's easy to dump on Tuel. Injury history, poor college record, supposedly pop-gun arm, undrafted, poor stats - yeah there is plenty to be cynical about.
But the Bills seem to like him, at least for now, and I think I can see why.
He might be the kind of guy who can be developed. Ability To progress at the next, and last, level (and some may say in his case beginning to progress) is probably the hardest thing to predict when picking players. Chris Brown might just be fluffing things up but if his reports are true, even if it's only OTA's that is pretty much exactly what you would want to hear as a fan. The kid has decent, if not prototypical size, and has enuf arm to play effectively IMO. Question is, does he have the brain of quarterback, which is also the principal question concerning EJ for that matter.
I wouldn't be placing a lot of chips on that square but it's certainly possible. Romo, Warner, Moon were all undrafted. Montana and Brady were not your fantastic physical specimens.
IMO there is maybe a 30% chance that EJ turns into a reliable, read consistent, NFL starting QB.
There's also a 30% chance that Tuel is starting because of EJ's poor play or injury before the year is out.
Many, many players can demonstrate touch and accuracy in a single game when they are playing against 3rd string defenses in the preseason. Fitzpatrick threw five TDs in preseason last year doing exactly that. So have lumaries like Matt Simms and Case Keenum.
He "beat out" Matt Flynn for the same reason he "beat out" Matt Leinart and Dennis Dixon. Tuel went through training camp and they didn't. Flynn and Dixon were an emergency mid-season replacement QBs when Lewis and Manuel were injured at the same time, and he was let go once they were healthy. What does how much Seattle and Oakland paid for him matter? Both of them thought he had starting potential, and both were wrong.People seem to forget that he beat out Matt Flynn too. If he "sucked", as you claim, the Bills could have easily kept Flynn. And I don't have to remind you how much both the Seahawks and Raiders gave up to get that guy. And what he did in his brief look in Green Bay.
So? Trent Edwards won TC battles with JP Losman, Brian Brohm, and Ryan Fitzpatrick. That's a first rounder and a second rounder right there. He must be good if he beat out talent like that, right? Beating bad players in TC doesn't automatically make you a good player, doubly so when you've had the benefit of extra months of practice time with that team. And if you're going to fluff Matt Flynn's one elite game from 2010 (And who was coaching the defense he scorched? d'oh!), then you can't turn around and say Tuel has "proven he's better." Because Tuel hasn't even come close to playing that well in any situation.So Tuel, who you say "sucks", has proven he's better than Travaris Jackson, Matt Flynn, Dennis Dixon in one season AND now we're reading articles about how he may take the 2nd string spot in 2014. Ok. You must be right in the face of ALL the Bills coaches that see him up close every day.
The "options" you talk about were mid-season replacements from last year and most have already been let go. The only QB the Bills have brought in in the last 8 months was Kenny Guitton, and every one including him recognized he was a rookie camp arm being signed as a favor so he could improve his coaching prospects. They already let him go too.And I think I just killed your "no other options" argument.
I do criticize Manuel. All the time. Criticizing Tuel doesn't mean I'm praising Manuel (or Thad Lewis for that matter). I've been saying that we should bring in some legitimate competition for his spot, let alone Tuel's.MANUEL didn't produce. Tuel was an UDFA who was thrust into an unlikely role because of poor planning by Whaley & Nix. Again. IF you're going to criticize ANY QB it should squarely be EJ Manuel. He was the one that came in with all the lofty expectations and looked like a deer in the headlights.
Jackson is not really better than Kolb, but he at least stays healthy. Kolb was an injury waiting to happen, and it happened.
I remember when numbers of folks here were chewing their nails and biting their knees over the prospect of losing Tuel if he were assigned to the practice squad...
Fiat justitia ruat caelum. Noli timere. Laus Deo.
Tuel time makes me want to throw up just like the idea of Manuel being the starting QB.
Big bad Thad also sucks. Every QB on the Bills' roster blows.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote