Bills could go for at least $1.1 billion

[WagonCircler]

I'm pretty sure that Fletch is either Spiked or Coastal.

A douchebag factor this high is hard to disguise.

[YardRat]

You people know that regardless of who buys the team, for how much, if/when a new stadium is built, an 'iron-clad' release is signed for eternity, etc, that some will never let the issue of moving the team not be an issue, right?

[Skooby]

You people know that regardless of who buys the team, for how much, if/when a new stadium is built, an 'iron-clad' release is signed for eternity, etc, that some will never let the issue of moving the team not be an issue, right?

Nothing lasts forever.

[Fletch]

You people know that regardless of who buys the team, for how much, if/when a new stadium is built, an 'iron-clad' release is signed for eternity, etc, that some will never let the issue of moving the team not be an issue, right?

Let's get to that "if/when" scenario first. It's that "if" part that has me concerned.

Right now you have all kinds of you guys lecturing us on things that would have to be contained in the trust details that apparently you know despite the info being stated as not having even been released yet.

So it's nice to have so many mindreaders here. In the meantime, please pardon those of us that want to actually hear what it says prior to stating for the record that we know for sure.

I realize that researched viewpoints aren't exactly the norm in sports forums, but can we at least give it the old college try on this one.

[Fletch]

The Bills went to the Super Bowl 4 times.............in a row.

When is the last time the Leafs played for the Stanley Cup 4 times in a row........or even once?

LOL

At least you didn't defer to the '65 AFL title as some would have in defending Wilson.

Denseness factor is high in this one though. Don't make me regret taking you off my ignore list now.

Bills haven't made the playoffs since '99, Leafs made the playoffs two seasons ago and five times otherwise during that same span. I'll take that.

Bills haven't wont a playoff game since '95, Leafs have won 7 series and two conference semi-finals during that same span. I'll take that.

The early '90s Bills are a distant and vague memory for many. That was also before Wilson had the genius to fire the man that put 'em there.

[YardRat]

Let's get to that "if/when" scenario first. It's that "if" part that has me concerned.

Right now you have all kinds of you guys lecturing us on things that would have to be contained in the trust details that apparently you know despite the info being stated as not having even been released yet.

So it's nice to have so many mindreaders here. In the meantime, please pardon those of us that want to actually hear what it says prior to stating for the record that we know for sure.

I realize that researched viewpoints aren't exactly the norm in sports forums, but can we at least give it the old college try on this one.

Your anxiety closet makes Michael Binkley's look like a playground.

[better days]

LOL

At least you didn't defer to the '65 AFL title as some would have in defending Wilson.

Denseness factor is high in this one though. Don't make me regret taking you off my ignore list now.

Bills haven't made the playoffs since '99, Leafs made the playoffs two seasons ago and five times otherwise during that same span. I'll take that.

Bills haven't wont a playoff game since '95, Leafs have won 7 series and two conference semi-finals during that same span. I'll take that.

The early '90s Bills are a distant and vague memory for many. That was also before Wilson had the genius to fire the man that put 'em there.

Well, Ralph is dead. the Bills could be as bad or even worse under the new owner than they were under Ralph.

In Buffalo or Toronto.

[Skooby]

Let's get to that "if/when" scenario first. It's that "if" part that has me concerned.

Right now you have all kinds of you guys lecturing us on things that would have to be contained in the trust details that apparently you know despite the info being stated as not having even been released yet.

So it's nice to have so many mindreaders here. In the meantime, please pardon those of us that want to actually hear what it says prior to stating for the record that we know for sure.

I realize that researched viewpoints aren't exactly the norm in sports forums, but can we at least give it the old college try on this one.

The Leafs ? WTH ? Hockey is off the board until ~Halloween man.

[trapezeus]

The assumptions you make are ridiculous.



That's been my point all along. But the difference between you and me is that I don't claim to know what's in the trust, whereas you do, like selling it to someone that wants to keep the team here.



That's idiotically ridiculous. That could very well be the case, the mandate of the trust is UNKNOWN. But of course you alone know what it is and you know that it's not to sell to the highest bidder. We get that.

What did you expect, the team to be on the auction block as Wilson's casket was being lowered into its grave? These things take time, this isn't a franchise of Horton's being bought.

The difference between you and me is that I recognize that Mary Wilson doesn't live in Buffalo, has openly expressed that she won't care about the team or its business after her husband dies, and then I draw the link between that and the notion that money's likely more important to her than the welfare of the team which she has never even expressed a fleeting interest in.

You on the other hand seem to think that all of a sudden she cares about things that she's already said she doesn't care about, things that she's never publicly stated she cares about, and that things that other people typically value, like wealth in this case, is insignificant to her otherwise. Does that sound wise or logical to you?

I think some of you still can't get over the fact that Wilson lied to you when he said that he's done all that he could do to keep the team here. That's a proven lie now. He could have sold the team prior to his passing but chose not to. So he didn't do all that he could. He lied.



Wrong! Everyone's pitching this as if he did this just before he died and that was the best he could get. The truth of the matter is that he did this four years ago. It was a 10-year stipulation. He didn't know when he was going to kick.

If he had lived another two years we'd be on the cusp of that buyout year of 2019 given how much time it takes to build a stadium.

Everyone's giving him credit for the circumstances that exist after his passing, but they existed prior to his passing and the whole "6 years" thing is only 6 years because he happened to die this year. If he had died three years from now it would have been 3 years. How would everyone have felt then? Would everyone be saying what a great guy he was because he's committed the team to be here for one more bumbling coaching cycle? I very much doubt it. I think we'd be hearing a lot more complaints.

Or worse yet, if he had lived four or five more years and he would have failed to get a new stadium, as I think would have been likely given the state of things now, then the team would be poised to move almost immediately.

So in essence we're giving Wilson credit for dying now, this year, instead of a year or two down the road, and then crediting him with the circumstances that only exist because of the arbitrary timing of his death.

Seriously, some of you really need to get a grip on reality.

All i am claiming is that mary wilson doesn't present herself as someone who doesn't want to honor her husband's wishes. there are a number of reports which you systematically refuse to acknowledge that ralph wanted the team to be in buffalo. Jim Kelly himself had said that he was confident that the team would stay. you have state officials who are close to the subject suggesting that the team has a good chance of staying. no one has hit the panic button yet.

i don't know what ralph put in it, but as of the early 90's there was talk that ralph had a specific AR (after ralph) plan. and what we've seen so far from the lease, the owners approvals, and the toronto group being forced to say they won't move the team, that there is consideration about intent.

Furthermore, the richest guy in the battle is tied to the community, seemingly took on a bad sabres organization and has made it part of his larger plan of revitalizing the city. he's also liquidated $1.75BN. So it seems like he's very much in the thick of things, if not in the lead.

buffalo is continuously in the news for having some of the most stable real estate sales right now where the rest of the country is having housing volatility. it is getting good press for doing the right things in early stage revitalizations. to think the buffalo of today is the buffalo of 5-10 years is short sighted.

I give you that the region at 6 years may show that it can't support the team and the nfl will want out for London or some other stupid idea. but i also think the league knows from the LA experiments and from the expansion with Jax, that some of the data on regional growth doesn't always translate into support.


my point is that you just simply avoid what doesn't fit your narrative. your narrative is that buffalo is dying and that the owners and mary wilson are jonesing to screw over this city. i think it's more complicated than that and that we have a better chance of keeping the team than if this happened 5-8 years ago.

[Fletch]

Your anxiety closet makes Michael Binkley's look like a playground.

LOL

Good one. No anxiety though brother, just looking at the facts.

It's pretty easy. You take what really happens, look at it using all of NFL history, take the statements made by team officials like Whaley and Marrone, and then ask yourself does it all make sense or are they more like politicians just promising things because they know that there's no ramifications for talking big without any justification.

What I'm looking for is to have a FO and coaching staff that finally starts making some real sense.

[Fletch]

Well, Ralph is dead. the Bills could be as bad or even worse under the new owner than they were under Ralph.

In Buffalo or Toronto.

Right, which is why I care more about the new owner's philosophy of running the team than keeping a loser around in Buffalo until the next owner dies.

I realize that others here care more about simply being able to go see the games of a sihtty team, and maybe having lived through the Polian era I'm spoiled, but I won't settle for less than a winner. I realize that's not a popular sentiment here because most of everyone here doesn't seem to mind losing as long as "we have a team."

- - - Updated - - -

The Leafs ? WTH ? Hockey is off the board until ~Halloween man.

I didn't bring hockey up. I hate pro hockey.

[Fletch]

All i am claiming is that mary wilson doesn't present herself as someone who doesn't want to honor her husband's wishes. there are a number of reports which you systematically refuse to acknowledge that ralph wanted the team to be in buffalo. Jim Kelly himself had said that he was confident that the team would stay. you have state officials who are close to the subject suggesting that the team has a good chance of staying. no one has hit the panic button yet.

LOL

And what was Wilson's wish?

To keep the team in Buffalo? You think so? Then why didn't he see to that 100%, ... OK, 99%, by selling the team to Golisano or Pegula while he was alive.

There are a number of reports that claim that Ralph wanted the team to remain in Buffalo, but again, what Ralph wants now, if it isn't written into the trust that was set up, won't make a difference, especially if that trust has a fiduciary duty to sell to the highest bidder.

What aren't you getting here? It's not complicated trapezeus, it really isn't.

Jim Kelly's "confidence" is also meaningless. It's been verified now that he's not part of any buying group, as everyone has been suggesting all along, and as if someone with a few million or even tens of millions of dollars has much clout when it comes to the disposition of an NFL team.

As to your state offiicials, the team has an outstanding chance of staying, for several years anyway. At this point I don't think that too many people are concerned that the team will be playing elsewhere in 2016, but many are concerned that in 2020 they will be. That's immaterial though.

You continually leap-frog the fact that a trust has been set up. If you knew how trusts work, then you wouldn't be saying the things that you are saying. It's all in writing now. Ralph's not around any longer to ask. His widow cannot speak or act on his behalf other than what is contained in the trust. Just because Mary Wilson thinks she wants to sell the team to Danny Wegman for the same $25K that Ralph paid does not mean that she can do it, even if it were Ralph's wishes to keep the team in Buffalo and Wegman were the only one willing to do that.

The trust is run by a board, and that much has been fully reported, so even if you did not understand trusts, you should have picked up from reading that it's now more than just Mary Wilson who's making decisions. If Ralph didn't put it in writing, just like any will or trust, it doesn't exist.

Here's what bothers me, for years all anyone talked about was how Ralph did all he could to keep the team in Buffalo, right? We can agree on that.

But "all he could" would have been to sell the team to an owner willing to do that, right? Leaving it to chance after his death is hardly "all he could do." We can agree on that.

Did he do that? No, he did not. That's a fact that needs no agreement.

So simple logic would dictate that he did not do all that he could.

As to the current situation, everyone's talking as if he set up this 6-year (2019/2020) hitch just before he died. This was set-up as part of the stadium renovation deal four years ago, and to get the renovation money to renovate the stadium bearing Ralph's name, as if he had no personal interest in that. But everyone's talking as if he just set it up to be a poison pill for the new owner, which again, obviously is not the case.

I'll put it another way, Ralph didn't do it for you, the fan, he did it so that the stadium could be renovated. So let's quit talking about this as if it was some great gift by Ralph with his last dying breath as Goodell was sitting bedside and Ralph just managed to talk Goodell into this. It was business through and through. Had he not agreed to that, the stadium would not have been renovated.

Why did they need that stipulation? Ralph wasn't about to move the team.

It was because Ralph was as old as the hills and they knew that he likely would not outlive that ten years. But hey, if Ralph was going to do "all that he could to keep the team in Buffalo," then that would also have been unnecessary, don't you think.

So who benefits by this lease provision locking the team into playing at the Ralph through 2019? Sure, the fans do, but the team wasn't likely to leave through most of that anyway. Who benefits the most is the county with whom the lease is IINM.

Even so, the league has made it beyond abundantly clear that the team will not remain in Buffalo without a new stadium. I don't ever recall reading about "unless the new owner disagrees."

You guys all put so many emotional elements into this, like Mary Wilson's opinions, the disproven notion that Kelly's part of of any buying group or otherwise knows anything or has any influence beyond marketing value, or that Mary is now in a position to posthumously express Ralph's opinions for him, which is never the case when it comes to legal matters and wills or trusts, that's why those things are set up, to put in writing what the will of the person was so as to remove any doubt or ambiguity.

At some point we're going to find out what's written in that trust. I have a very difficult time believing that the NFL would be wasting the time of multi-billionaires if they were ineligible to make a purchase by sending them the related items anyway. Doing so would be highly disingenuous and could even result in lawsuits to recover expenses for owners that were deemed to be ineligible but originally told that they were eligible.

So many people here believe the most unlikely and unverfiable things, it's absurd.

Like I said, we're eventually going to find out what's in that trust, and I sorely doubt that there's a provision in there preventing any owner that might eventually move the team from bidding on it. And this of course all assumes that a stadium will be built in Buffalo, for which you say that all indicators are that it will, but that clearly isn't the case. Cuomo has essentially said that the state won't help. If it does it likely won't be by much or nearly enough to make the singular difference. They're not going to put into it what they did to Yankee stadium, sorry, just ain't happening. The county's broke. So any such purchase will fall upon the new owner. Pegula or Golisano might do it. But if they get outbid, then they won't have the opportunity. Will they spend hundreds millions more than a team with an option to move it to say a city like Toronto where it can be much more profitable? We don't know that either, any such insinuation is pure speculation at the moment despite many fans putting words in both Pegula's and Golisano's mouths.

Again, like I said, there was one and only one sure way to sell the team to someone with full intentions of keeping it in Buffalo, and Wilson chose not to do that.

Everyone acts like Mary Wilson, who has expressed zero interest in the team long ago, is sitting on some throne and is allowed to posthumously speak for her husband. But that is not the case. She's one member of the board and the board is going to do exactly what the trust mandates. It's highly unlikely that there's a lot of lattitude in that trust, and if there is, it will be the board that decides, not Mary alone. She will not be allowed to arbitrarily speak for her late husband without him being able to speak for himself.

So, if you think that it's written in the trust that any owner that buys the team cannot relocate the team, I don't know what to say. Who would even buy the team under such circumstances since it would obligate the owner to pay for any future stadiums by himself. Why would a state or county pitch in if they didn't have to. What's in the lease, not the trust, but the lease, is the stipulation that based on prior renovation that the team must be here through 2019. The money that gets ponied up if the team moves prior to that doesn't even go to the team, it would go to the county if I understand that correctly. Either way, the recipient is immaterial here.

I think, based on the logic of the situation, that the only hitch to staying in Buffalo is the balance of this 10-year hook in the lease and that's it.

After that, just as with all pro sports teams, the economics and marketing viability of the region is going to determine the team's new home. I hope that it's here, but I just wouldn't put my money on it.

[better days]

LOL

And what was Wilson's wish?

To keep the team in Buffalo? You think so? Then why didn't he see to that 100%, ... OK, 99%, by selling the team to Golisano or Pegula while he was alive.

There are a number of reports that claim that Ralph wanted the team to remain in Buffalo, but again, what Ralph wants now, if it isn't written into the trust that was set up, won't make a difference, especially if that trust has a fiduciary duty to sell to the highest bidder.

What aren't you getting here? It's not complicated trapezeus, it really isn't.

Jim Kelly's "confidence" is also meaningless. It's been verified now that he's not part of any buying group, as everyone has been suggesting all along, and as if someone with a few million or even tens of millions of dollars has much clout when it comes to the disposition of an NFL team.

As to your state offiicials, the team has an outstanding chance of staying, for several years anyway. At this point I don't think that too many people are concerned that the team will be playing elsewhere in 2016, but many are concerned that in 2020 they will be. That's immaterial though.

You continually leap-frog the fact that a trust has been set up. If you knew how trusts work, then you wouldn't be saying the things that you are saying. It's all in writing now. Ralph's not around any longer to ask. His widow cannot speak or act on his behalf other than what is contained in the trust. Just because Mary Wilson thinks she wants to sell the team to Danny Wegman for the same $25K that Ralph paid does not mean that she can do it, even if it were Ralph's wishes to keep the team in Buffalo and Wegman were the only one willing to do that.

The trust is run by a board, and that much has been fully reported, so even if you did not understand trusts, you should have picked up from reading that it's now more than just Mary Wilson who's making decisions. If Ralph didn't put it in writing, just like any will or trust, it doesn't exist.

Here's what bothers me, for years all anyone talked about was how Ralph did all he could to keep the team in Buffalo, right? We can agree on that.

But "all he could" would have been to sell the team to an owner willing to do that, right? Leaving it to chance after his death is hardly "all he could do." We can agree on that.

Did he do that? No, he did not. That's a fact that needs no agreement.

So simple logic would dictate that he did not do all that he could.

As to the current situation, everyone's talking as if he set up this 6-year (2019/2020) hitch just before he died. This was set-up as part of the stadium renovation deal four years ago, and to get the renovation money to renovate the stadium bearing Ralph's name, as if he had no personal interest in that. But everyone's talking as if he just set it up to be a poison pill for the new owner, which again, obviously is not the case.

I'll put it another way, Ralph didn't do it for you, the fan, he did it so that the stadium could be renovated. So let's quit talking about this as if it was some great gift by Ralph with his last dying breath as Goodell was sitting bedside and Ralph just managed to talk Goodell into this. It was business through and through. Had he not agreed to that, the stadium would not have been renovated.

Why did they need that stipulation? Ralph wasn't about to move the team.

It was because Ralph was as old as the hills and they knew that he likely would not outlive that ten years. But hey, if Ralph was going to do "all that he could to keep the team in Buffalo," then that would also have been unnecessary, don't you think.

So who benefits by this lease provision locking the team into playing at the Ralph through 2019? Sure, the fans do, but the team wasn't likely to leave through most of that anyway. Who benefits the most is the county with whom the lease is IINM.

Even so, the league has made it beyond abundantly clear that the team will not remain in Buffalo without a new stadium. I don't ever recall reading about "unless the new owner disagrees."

You guys all put so many emotional elements into this, like Mary Wilson's opinions, the disproven notion that Kelly's part of of any buying group or otherwise knows anything or has any influence beyond marketing value, or that Mary is now in a position to posthumously express Ralph's opinions for him, which is never the case when it comes to legal matters and wills or trusts, that's why those things are set up, to put in writing what the will of the person was so as to remove any doubt or ambiguity.

At some point we're going to find out what's written in that trust. I have a very difficult time believing that the NFL would be wasting the time of multi-billionaires if they were ineligible to make a purchase by sending them the related items anyway. Doing so would be highly disingenuous and could even result in lawsuits to recover expenses for owners that were deemed to be ineligible but originally told that they were eligible.

So many people here believe the most unlikely and unverfiable things, it's absurd.

Like I said, we're eventually going to find out what's in that trust, and I sorely doubt that there's a provision in there preventing any owner that might eventually move the team from bidding on it. And this of course all assumes that a stadium will be built in Buffalo, for which you say that all indicators are that it will, but that clearly isn't the case. Cuomo has essentially said that the state won't help. If it does it likely won't be by much or nearly enough to make the singular difference. They're not going to put into it what they did to Yankee stadium, sorry, just ain't happening. The county's broke. So any such purchase will fall upon the new owner. Pegula or Golisano might do it. But if they get outbid, then they won't have the opportunity. Will they spend hundreds millions more than a team with an option to move it to say a city like Toronto where it can be much more profitable? We don't know that either, any such insinuation is pure speculation at the moment despite many fans putting words in both Pegula's and Golisano's mouths.

Again, like I said, there was one and only one sure way to sell the team to someone with full intentions of keeping it in Buffalo, and Wilson chose not to do that.

Everyone acts like Mary Wilson, who has expressed zero interest in the team long ago, is sitting on some throne and is allowed to posthumously speak for her husband. But that is not the case. She's one member of the board and the board is going to do exactly what the trust mandates. It's highly unlikely that there's a lot of lattitude in that trust, and if there is, it will be the board that decides, not Mary alone. She will not be allowed to arbitrarily speak for her late husband without him being able to speak for himself.

So, if you think that it's written in the trust that any owner that buys the team cannot relocate the team, I don't know what to say. Who would even buy the team under such circumstances since it would obligate the owner to pay for any future stadiums by himself. Why would a state or county pitch in if they didn't have to. What's in the lease, not the trust, but the lease, is the stipulation that based on prior renovation that the team must be here through 2019. The money that gets ponied up if the team moves prior to that doesn't even go to the team, it would go to the county if I understand that correctly. Either way, the recipient is immaterial here.

I think, based on the logic of the situation, that the only hitch to staying in Buffalo is the balance of this 10-year hook in the lease and that's it.

After that, just as with all pro sports teams, the economics and marketing viability of the region is going to determine the team's new home. I hope that it's here, but I just wouldn't put my money on it.

Question, how many people read the above in its entirety?

[Fletch]

I've been straight, I'm more concerned about who our next GM and head coach will be than what happens 6 seasons from now.

We may move we may not. If we do then like most fans here I won't follow the team any longer.

In the meantime, wouldn't it be nice to make the playoffs at some point and have a team like the one we had in the '90s where on any given Sunday we had a legitimate, not merely a paper, chance of winning the game, and even a likelihood of doing so? I know that I would like that.

But Whaley and his Vegas approach to managing, while making ignorant quotes about the team that he supposedly formerly helped build, clearly isn't the answer. So we'll once again have to clear the hurdle of yet another horrid Brandon decision to get to that point.

Yeah yeah, we're going to be 9-7 or 10-6 this season, I get all that. But at the end of the season when we're 5-11 (or worse) again, let's pick up where we left off and at least agree that Whaley will need to go and take Marrone & Co. right along with him. Would Brandon do that? Not a chance in a million after this season. So our hope is in a new owner that will.

[Fletch]

Question, how many people read the above in its entirety?

And we wonder why there are so many completely ignorant opinions in this forum.

Feel free to take a break from slurping down your liquid nourishment to nourish your brain for a moment and take what, the three minutes required to read that.

If not, at least go google trusts and how they work. People here are glaringly ignorant as to how a simple trust or will works.

I guess that's what makes posting here fun. If everyone were educated on the topics that they claim to be experts in, then there wouldn't be much dissenting discussion, and dissent after all is where the fun lies.

Besides, it was directed at trapezeus. Despite our disagreements at least he reads the opinions of those that argue with him unlike other people here.

[better days]

And we wonder why there are so many completely ignorant opinions in this forum.

Feel free to take a break from slurping down your liquid nourishment to nourish your brain for a moment and take what, the three minutes required to read that.

If not, at least go google trusts and how they work. People here are glaringly ignorant as to how a simple trust or will works.

I guess that's what makes posting here fun. If everyone were educated on the topics that they claim to be experts in, then there wouldn't be much dissenting discussion, and dissent after all is where the fun lies.

Besides, it was directed at trapezeus. Despite our disagreements at least he reads the opinions of those that argue with him unlike other people here.

As has been pointed out to you before by others, NOBODY is going to waste their time reading your long winded diatribes.

Anyone with a point to make can do so in a much more concise manner.

[cookie G]

people have repeatedly said that the way the trust works, is you follow the wishes of the deceased. they can be as specific as they want. if the heirs have issues with following through, it becomes a big court deal. so far, knowing none of the details, one thing is consistent. a fast sale. so that suggests they will follow what the trust has set forth.

Be nice...he's just getting a handle on the basics of what a trust is.

Baby steps.