Watkins or Evans, ... just curious ...

[Woodman]

I'd jump over 5 Mike Evans's to draft Sammy Watkins and so would my team.

I'm sure both of us will be proven correct by a wide margin.

Was this a serious question ... just really have to ask?

[Fletch]

I don't know enough about either guy, but I have a hard time believing that the difference between Watkins and Evans will be worth next year's first round pick.

I should have included these, too many people are going to vote and comment without looking at the differences.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2014/profil...ins?id=2543457

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2013/profil...ans?id=2543468

Watkins:

Strengths

Exceptional football playing speed -- can flat out fly and take the top off a defense. Has world-class track speed. Extends outside his frame and plucks the ball. Outstanding body control and agility. Tracks the ball well over his shoulder and is a natural hands-catcher who can make an average quarterback look good. Consistently turns 2-yard gains into 15-yard chunks -- possesses big-time playmaking ability and is very effective creating in the open field on bubble screens and quick-hitting short/lateral tosses. Superb run-after-the-catch ability. Good burst out of his cuts to separate. Has game-breaking return ability and is a threat to score every time he touches the ball. Has a strong support structure (mother moved to Clemson following Wakins' 2012 drug arrest and he has steered clear of any trouble). Will be a 21-year-old rookie.

Weaknesses

Production results heavily from a gimmicky offense. Routes could use some more polish. Does not consistently work the middle of the field. Could improve field awareness. Is still immature and could require some time to acclimate to an NFL playbook. Could stand to improve ball security and do a better job fielding punts.

Draft Projection

Round 1 (top 10)

Bottom Line

A legitimate No. 1-caliber receiver who stepped onto the field as a true freshman and made an immediate, game-changing impact. Was slowed by injuries as a sophomore, but responded with a strong junior season and capped his career as one of the most impactful receivers in school history. Has rare speed, soft hands and the big-play ability to challenge NFL defensive backs as a rookie.

Evans:

Strengths

Outstanding size and length. Functionally strong to power through the jam. Boxes out defenders and is a big red-zone target. Hardwood background is evident -- outstanding leaper with "above-the-rim" skills to go over top of smaller DBs and highpoint throws. Creates late, subtle separation. Tracks and adjusts. Makes contested grabs -- attacks throws and outmuscles defenders in a crowd. Nearly unstoppable executing back-shoulder catches. Strong, reliable hands. Very strong after the catch -- slams into tacklers, is a load to bring down and leans for extra yardage. Productive playmaker -- averaged 20 yards per catch in 2013 and showed up in big games (18-566-5 vs. Alabama and Auburn). Good blocker. Physically dominant and tough. Will be a 21-year-old rookie.

Weaknesses

Monotone mover with pedestrian speed. Cannot separate vertically or pull away from the pack. Unsudden acceleration. Stiff hips. Will have to make a living in traffic at the next level. Will struggle to separate vs. quick-twitch NFL cornerbacks. Did not run a full route tree and could require patience learning the nuances of refined route running. Backyard element to his college success -- must become savvier instead of depending on superior size and improvisational production. Can be hotheaded and lose control of his emotions. Basketball was first love.

Draft Projection

Round 1 (top 15)

Bottom Line

A prep hoopster with shooting-guard size, Evans combined with Johnny Manziel to form one of the most dominant quarterback-receiver connections in the nation the last two seasons. He's a big, physical, strong-handed, West Coast possession receiver with playmaking ability who projects as a No. 2 in the pros, where he will make his money as a chain mover and red-zone target.

[Fletch]

I'd jump over 5 Mike Evans's to draft Sammy Watkins and so would my team.

I'm sure both of us will be proven correct by a wide margin.

Was this a serious question ... just really have to ask?

Doesn't sound like a very serious comment, neither player has even taken a snap. In your book we're all supposed to assume that he'll match the same hype that Reggie Bush had, but failed to live up to in a big way. I don't see much difference.

I'm not saying Watkins won't be good, I expect that he'll be just fine, but who knows if he'll ever become something that was worth not one, but two 1st-rounders and a 4th-rounder too.

Looking at the WRs taken at the top of the 1st round in drafts, few have put up the kind of numbers that would justify such a pick. Keyshawn Johnson comes to mind. They said even better things about him.

Remember Desmond Howard? He was maybe faster than Watkins and he was supposed to tear the NFL a new one. The scenario on him was almost identical. The Skins traded two 1st's to trade up to the 4th spot to grab Howard. The legendary Joe Gibbs was the coach at the time, not some schmucks like we have at both GM and head coach.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/199...desmond-howard

So yes, the question was serious. Your response was same as most typical juvenile responses here.

[Fletch]

I disagree that Mike Evans is the better prospect.

He was in a prolific offense with one of the NCAA's all-time greats at quarterback throwing him the ball. Making it a possibility his draft value was inflated. Watkins did it at Clemson with Tajh Boyd at the helm.

I don't know how the perceived "value" of the trade will play out, but I like Watkins over Evans if we're strictly evaluating talent. He has more upside to be a game breaker. His speed, elusiveness, route running, and freakish ability to move after the catch give him the edge.

I didn't say that Evans was a better prospect, you falsely read into that if you're suggesting that I did.

I'm saying that I'd rather have him and another 1st next year instead of Watkins.

I also think that he'll post better numbers than Sammy will this year, partially because he'll be in an offense whereby he and Jackson will complement each other. I'm not sure who's going to compliment Sammy besides Woods, who's not proven he's the same caliber player as Jackson to date. I don't view Williams as a compliment, and Goodwin, like Underwood in Tampa, won't do it either. He's more of a role-player.

Also, Evans has the prototypical build, 6'5"/230, and the level of competition that he faced was notably better. The only real pass defense that Watkins ever faced was FSU and he played poorly against them as a Sr. and horribly against them as a Jr. So looking at it from a perspective of playing pass D's that are good, Watkins has done very little, which worries me.

[Fletch]

It's not a poll option, but I would have made the same trade to take Khalil Mack.

Agreed!!

[Fletch]

I'll admit at first I liked Evans because of his size, but a couple months before the draft Watkins was getting a lot of good things said about him and when you look at their scouting draft reports, it seems like a no-brainer. Of course either of them could go either way, but I think that Watkins has a lot more upside were he can be a threat anywhere on the field and Evans is going to be a red zone threat at best. JMO

As far who will have the better rookie season, Watkins could end up as the legitimate #1 for the Bills in his 1st year, Evans is not going to be moving Vincent Jackson out of his spot or taking away too many of his targets. My prediction, Watkins >65 rec. / Evans 45< rec.

You sure about that?

Evans had a 7 catch 279 yard performance against Alabama's 10th ranked pass D and clearly showed that Evans will not only be a threat in the red zone.

Sammy's three performances last year against top-20 passing defenses were far less impressive, his 8 catches for 68 yards against 5th ranked FSU and his 7 catch 93-yard performance against South Carolina and their 19th ranked passing D were not indicative that he's a better receiver. His 6 for 113 yard game against Wake Forest, besides being against Wake Forest, pretty much revolved around one 64-yard catch. Wake Forest as a team was terrible.

Evans put up more against Alabama in a huge game, one of the biggest on the season in college football overall, than Evans did against all three of those teams.

Evans played in the toughest conference in football, Sammy played most teams with weak defenses and even weaker passing defenses. For example, last season he played teams with the following ranked passing defenses:

5th, 13th, 19th, 25th, 44th, 70th, 72nd, 77th, 97th, 112th, 120th

I'm really concerned about two things, Sammy's having buttered his bread on bubble screens in a very gimmicky offense and on the lack of competition he faced in a very weak ACC while he was there.

Also, let me ask you kisoph, take a look at Tampa's roster, consider that Glennon put the ball up over 400 times as a rookie and only played in 13 games, and that Mike Williams, their next best receiver after Jackson and Underwood, and not that he's good, is gone now.

Who's going to be catching the other passes primarily?

I see Evans getting at least as many targets on a team that's likely to throw the ball more than we are.

[Fletch]

This is ridiculous posturing so you can say "I told you so".

You are banking on the fact that EJ is going to stink it up and make Watkins look bad. No matter how well he performs, you are going to say that Watkins was a bad pick. We all know people like you. This is what you do on the internet. You can't possibly lose, because unless he takes us to the playoffs (he can't, the position isn't that important) he won't be worth what we gave up for him. Even if he makes the pro-bowl (he won't because EJ likely won't get him the ball) you can still argue it wasn't worth it. It's an argument you mostly can't lose because you can always paint it in your favor.

It is so transparent it is laughable.

Since you are going to bump this thread eventually I'll make my point that no matter what Watkins does you are going to argue that he underperformed. I would bet someone 1000 dollars of real money if it were done in secret without you knowing. That's how obvious you are.

EJ is going to fail to get him the ball enough, he's going to post slightly above average numbers anyways based on talent alone, and you are going to repost this and say HA I TOLD YOU ALL SO. Mark my words, that is exactly what is going to happen.

Well yeah, the fact that Manuel is throwing to Sammy is part of it, but only part, so you're wrong.

Even so, this wasn't about who's going to do more this season, it was a simple poll asking whether you would have made the trade or taken Evans and kept our 1st rounder next year.

Talk about posturing here. What's it like being paranoid constantly in casual conversations?

[Fletch]

I won't disagree on the EJ stinking it up part, he showed nothing to expect otherwise but even still Watkins will put up numbers. Stevie put up 52 catches in 12 games. There is no reason to not think Sammy can't go 70-1100-7. Someone needs to pick up the production lost by Stevie's departure and that someone will be Sammy.

Now if 70-1100-7 isn't good enough for someone, they're not very knowledgeable about the game simply based on what other receivers have done with poor QBs throwing them the ball. Especially guys who are the number 1 option in the passing game. I can list guys who have put up those types of numbers with bums throwing them ball but I don't feel that's needed when the Bills themselves have shown it can be done. Lee Evans - JP Losman, Stevie Johnson - Ryan Fitzpatrick.

There's no reason not to think EJ can't throw for about 200 yards a game and Watkins to have about a third of those yards.

Stevie had 1,000 yards in each of the last three seasons, he didn't even come close last season.

Suppose that happens though, just curious, how would you divvy up the other 2,200 yards amongst our RBs, WRs, and TEs?

Only 12 WRs in the history of the NFL have posted 1,000 or more yards as a rookie during the 16 game era. Only 5 of those have been since 1998. Only 5 have hit 1,100.

It will be remarkable if he can do that with Manuel throwing.

Just curious though, how would you then divvy up the other 2,200 yards in terms of expectations among the other receiving players on the team?

[Fletch]

Well, I agree. I already said Whaley has his reputation on the line with that trade for Watkins.

If Sammy is a bust, Whaley should be fired. And that is the reason I voted for Sammy in the poll.

Whaley is a smart guy & I think he knows the consequences if Sammy is a bust but he made the trade anyway.

If Manuel is a bust Whaley should be fired. Watkins wasn't a reach, he just cost us a future draft pick. Manuel, by everyone's estimation except for Bills forum people and the Bills FO was a huge reach. He was Whaley's pick and Whaley is the one that had to have him.

They had to make the move to get Watkins, or so they think, in order to make Manuel seem like a halfway decent pick. This year's draft was entirely precipitated by last year's idiocy in the 1st round.

One giant risk leads to another. That's what we get here as fans.

[JoeMama]

I didn't say that Evans was a better prospect, you falsely read into that if you're suggesting that I did.

Make up your mind.

My position has been that Evans will end up being both the better rookie and better NFL WR over the years for reasons that I've explained.

[BuffaloRedleg]

Lol you have been whining about watkins for months now. We all know you have an agenda here. I'm just calling you on it and the completely predictable arguments you will make when you bump this come fall.

[Jry44]

This is beyond dumb...

Neither player has taken as much as an nfl preseason snap yet, let alone a snap that counts. There is nothing to compare the two on!

[BertSquirtgum]

Evans and a first rounder next year.

[kishoph]

You sure about that?

Evans had a 7 catch 279 yard performance against Alabama's 10th ranked pass D and clearly showed that Evans will not only be a threat in the red zone.

Sammy's three performances last year against top-20 passing defenses were far less impressive, his 8 catches for 68 yards against 5th ranked FSU and his 7 catch 93-yard performance against South Carolina and their 19th ranked passing D were not indicative that he's a better receiver. His 6 for 113 yard game against Wake Forest, besides being against Wake Forest, pretty much revolved around one 64-yard catch. Wake Forest as a team was terrible.

Evans put up more against Alabama in a huge game, one of the biggest on the season in college football overall, than Evans did against all three of those teams.

Evans played in the toughest conference in football, Sammy played most teams with weak defenses and even weaker passing defenses. For example, last season he played teams with the following ranked passing defenses:

5th, 13th, 19th, 25th, 44th, 70th, 72nd, 77th, 97th, 112th, 120th

I'm really concerned about two things, Sammy's having buttered his bread on bubble screens in a very gimmicky offense and on the lack of competition he faced in a very weak ACC while he was there.

Also, let me ask you kisoph, take a look at Tampa's roster, consider that Glennon put the ball up over 400 times as a rookie and only played in 13 games, and that Mike Williams, their next best receiver after Jackson and Underwood, and not that he's good, is gone now.

Who's going to be catching the other passes primarily?

I see Evans getting at least as many targets on a team that's likely to throw the ball more than we are.

First I'll start with saying, comparing their college stats is worthless because one had a QB who some thought should be the #1 overall pick and the other had a QB who the Jets picked up in the late rounds to be Brad Smith 2.0.

To answer the question you directed at me, the majority (near 240) of the 400+ passes Glennon threw went to Vincent Jackson and Tim Wright (a TE), between WR's Williams and Underwood they had 100 targets. Now you'll also have a healthy Doug Martin back (49 rec. in 2012), so with these 3 accomplished receivers (1 WR, 1TE, 1RB) do you think they're gonna find another 100+ targets for Evans. Where as the Bills don't have someone that was a go to receiver on their roster, leaving room for Watkins to be that guy. Bottom line IMO is you have the Bills #1 WR vs Tampa's #2 (maybe #3 if you count the TE) WR. A FYI just for kicks, the Bills threw the ball more than Tampa last year With Manuel as a rookie putting it up over 300 times in just barely over 9 games.

[Woodman]

So yes, the question was serious. Your response was same as most typical juvenile responses here.

Your question and comments are laughable.

You have a real problem with realities ....... so please attempt to get past this ignorant style that you seem unwilling to relinquish.

[stuckincincy]

First I'll start with saying, comparing their college stats is worthless because one had a QB who some thought should be the #1 overall pick and the other had a QB who the Jets picked up in the late rounds to be Brad Smith 2.0.

To answer the question you directed at me, the majority (near 240) of the 400+ passes Glennon threw went to Vincent Jackson and Tim Wright (a TE), between WR's Williams and Underwood they had 100 targets. Now you'll also have a healthy Doug Martin back (49 rec. in 2012), so with these 3 accomplished receivers (1 WR, 1TE, 1RB) do you think they're gonna find another 100+ targets for Evans. Where as the Bills don't have someone that was a go to receiver on their roster, leaving room for Watkins to be that guy. Bottom line IMO is you have the Bills #1 WR vs Tampa's #2 (maybe #3 if you count the TE) WR. A FYI just for kicks, the Bills threw the ball more than Tampa last year With Manuel as a rookie putting it up over 300 times in just barely over 9 games.

Manuel, 306/9 = 33 attempts per game played...Glennon 416 attempts/13 games = 32 per game played. Both were rookies. BUF has recently been more active in drafting wrs in the top 3 rounds than TB.
I like Watkins, I wouldn't have made the trade. I think Woods was the steal of the 2013 draft.

[Ginger Vitis]

The only real pass defense that Watkins ever faced was FSU and he played poorly against them as a Sr.

Their wasn't a Sr. season for Sammy at Clemson.. He left for the NFL after his Junior season

[YardRat]

I don't like drafting WR's real early to begin with, and trading picks to move up to get one is even worse. That being said, some people really need to quit *****ing about 'same old, same old' out of one side of their mouth, and then when the front office does something different ***** about that out of the other.

Being critical is one thing...perceiving oneself as a so-called 'realist' is another...pissing and moaning about everything constantly just to ***** is asinine.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

I think Woods was the steal of the 2013 draft.

That's really, really pushing it. Woods isn't even the best wide receiver steal of that draft, nor is he even the best steal for the Buffalo Bills from that draft.

[Fletch]

Make up your mind.

OK, since you struggle with this I guess I should have been more clear. Nice of you to include the rest of my post in the quote here, which is part of the problem, taking it out of context.

For the Bills, I believe Evans would have been the better prospect. Better Red Zone target too, much better.

I see Evans being much more plug and play thay Watkins here in Buffalo. If Watkins were on a team with a better, not only QB, but better offense, I see him having a better, although not necessarily superlative season this year. I see Evans chances for that being better early in the career of both. Obviously any WR would be better off on a team like Denver or NE with Peyton or Brady, but IMO Watkins even more so.

Manuel is all over the map, and while it's fun to think that as with Spiller when he was drafted, that Sammy's going to be out there 30 yards downfield all alone on every play because he's magical, that's obviously not going to be the case. He'll be in traffic often and IMO the better of the two WRs in traffic is Evans. Since Manuel's accuracy is low-end in the NFL, I think that he can use all the help he can get on OTM passes from his WRs. It's already been reported that Manuel's missed Watkins being open a bunch of times. IMO Evans would have been the better prospect here for sure, and while both WRs have their skills, like I've said before, speed is the one that's least transferable to the NFL and diminishes the most rapidly.

But what I said was that Evans and a 1st is better than Watkins for two 1sts and a 4th.

I realize that there's somewhat of a fine line here because of the circumstances of each QB, but I expect Evans' career to take off sooner. I don't think that Watkins will be a bust per se, but I don't think he's going to be the special WR that justifies two 1st-rounders and a 4th like some people here think. I think that's silly to think that.

Part of what I object to is people saying that Watkins, at 6'1"/210 or so, Moulds' size, is of the prototype or mold that Julio Jones, AJ Green, and Calvin Johnson are since Watkins is several inches shorter and hardly of that mold when Evans is. I'm expecting a little bit more than what Moulds did as a career, which wouldn't justify this selection.

So yes, I do think that Evans would have been the better prospect for this team. Much better. IMO the QB situation here is going to make Watkins underachieve. I don't think that this would have been the same case with Evans.

Here's from Evans' description above:

Boxes out defenders and is a big red-zone target. Hardwood background is evident -- outstanding leaper with "above-the-rim" skills to go over top of smaller DBs and highpoint throws. Creates late, subtle separation. Tracks and adjusts. Makes contested grabs -- attacks throws and outmuscles defenders in a crowd. Nearly unstoppable executing back-shoulder catches.

Watkins doesn't have this, it would have helped whichever QB is playing for us. Watkins' game is going to rely far more on having the ball thrown well on timing patterns, in stride whether lont or short, and just good accurate throws otherwise. Now who here sees that happening? We haven't seen that kind of QB play here in years. I think that Watkins would have done far better in Cleveland with Manziel. Fans here get far too emotional over things that don't fit out system well.