Mary Wilson-Is she the X-Factor in keeping the Bills here?

[WagonCircler]

You can't have 99% of 10 people. You could probably ask 10 people age 5 - 35 to locate Iowa or Brussels on a map, and they couldn't do it.

Sure you could. Just go to a local mall and ask some Canadians. They don't count as full people. There's an exchange rate.

[Fletch]

It's a fair assumption that she was involved in the drafting of those "wishes".

So it's fair to say her role on the trust is to represent Ralph's wishes and keep the team in Buffalo. But I doubt there is any opposition there, the other members of that trust are all (likely) fiercely loyal to Ralph as well. It sure looks like Ralph stacked the deck in favour of home town bids, time will tell.

Don't you understand what a trust is?

It's a legally written set of instructions in this case, that prescribes what is to happen to the team upon the owner's death. That owner, the last I ever read, was 100% Ralph.

If he let her write in things while he was living, then yes, her influence and wishes are in there. If not, then unless she's the owner or direct heir, and our current understanding is that the entire team is in that trust specifically because she did not want it after Ralph's passing, nor did any of their kids, then what's written in that trust will come to pass.

Too late to change it now, too late for her to "add her two cents" or otherwise state what her husband's wishes were, etc.

Why is this so complex for so many people?

The trust will have specific instructions, specific ones, written in it. Those will be followed to the letter of the law just like the rest of Wilson's will. No one can change anything since he died. Nothing. If there's some lattitude in the trust, for starters we haven't heard about it and it hasn't been made public, but then that lattitude would have to be somewhat specific.

If you ask me, the reason why so few bid on the team is because in Buffalo it may not be the investment that some seem to think it is.

As to the long-term future here, no matter what it's still going to hinge on the economics in WNY. If WNY continues to swan dive along with the rest of the state but more so as it has, then the team becomes less and less viable. IF that were to happen, the only way the team stays is with an owner that's willing to lose money on it worst case, or best case make money but not enough to justify the investment. Pegula may very well be that owner, but that's probably why fewer bidders than expected bid on it. It's probably also why Trump doesn't like his chances, because he's probably more in it purely for the investment than either Pegula or the Toronto group are.

The last we heard the trust now has to decide which of the three parties will be allowed to bid on it finally. If they narrow it down by one, Pegula has a chance to alter his bid. I'm not sure if he can lower it as well as he can increase it, not sure anyone knows right now. But if so, then reducing the number of bidders works against getting maximum bid for the team.

[Fletch]

This must be a very difficult day for you, Fletch. Watching your dreams of NFL Toronto whither and die, and all.

Good to see that you have your usual zero in terms of anything objective to add to the conversation.

What's it like with so little to do in life that in your arguments you have to resort to nonsense like that?

Seriously, this kind of stuff is childish. Not that you aren't, just sayin'.

[Fletch]

You can't have 99% of 10 people. You could probably ask 10 people age 5 - 35 to locate Iowa or Brussels on a map, and they couldn't do it.

I'd bet you that 80% of posters here couldn't do it.

I'll bet you that half couldn't pinpoint Ukraine on a map for example.

Based on the discussions here, this is hardly Intellectual Capital Central.

[WagonCircler]

Good to see that you have your usual zero in terms of anything objective to add to the conversation.

What's it like with so little to do in life that in your arguments you have to resort to nonsense like that?

Seriously, this kind of stuff is childish. Not that you aren't, just sayin'.

When you cry in your beer, does the salt from your tears make it bubble up?

[better days]

When you cry in your beer, does the salt from your tears make it bubble up?

Fletch probably doesn't drink beer.

He joins his buddy in a nice cold glass of Spiked Lemonade.

[NoVabillsfan89]

Basically the estate will pay capital gains on the sale of the franchise, based on its sale price or fair market value.

So, essentialy if it is bought for 1.3 billion the taxes will be on 1.3 billion - initial investment of $25,000

I don't think that's how capital gains works in cases like this.

Around the time of Ralph's passing, I read articles that said the value of the team at the time of his death will be assessed. I think it's safe to say that would be in the neighborhood of the Forbes estimate of $870 million.

The estate would pay capital gains taxes on the difference between the sale price and the assessed valuation, not the original $25K AFL franchise fee.

So if it's Pegula's $1.3B bid, they would pay capital gains taxes on the $430M difference, which would be in the $110-130M range, depending on the rate.

[Fletch]

When you cry in your beer, does the salt from your tears make it bubble up?

When you come out of the offices at OBD don't forget to wipe your mouth and take your knee pads off.

[WagonCircler]

When you come out of the offices at OBD don't forget to wipe your mouth and take your knee pads off.

That's very clever, Felch. Make sure you keep the mask on when you come out of the Cub Scouts offices, and hide the lube. There are surveillance cameras everywhere these days.

You must lead one sad little pathetic life. Keep rooting for the Bills to move. You're going to be devastated when it's announced that they're staying. I hear that an overdose is the easiest way out. Diving over the railing at Niagara Falls could leave you paralyzed, but still alive. Jumping off the Empire State Building could hurt other people on the sidewalk.

[jimmifli]

Don't you understand what a trust is?

Yes. And I understand what a marriage is too. And there is no ****ing way this gets drawn up without her involvement.

If he let her write in things while he was living, then yes, her influence and wishes are in there.

If he let her? What kind of ******* would just drop this on her without notice? I can just imagine the reading of the will:

"Hi Honey, as you probably noticed I'm dead. And have I got a surprise for you! You get to spend months (maybe even years) working with lawyers, investment bankers and the national media overseeing the sale of the team you didn't want! Love you, see you soon. Ralph"

The trust will have specific instructions, specific ones, written in it. Those will be followed to the letter of the law just like the rest of Wilson's will. No one can change anything since he died. Nothing. If there's some lattitude in the trust, for starters we haven't heard about it and it hasn't been made public, but then that lattitude would have to be somewhat specific.

Of course there is latitude. Many of the factors involved in selecting who is allowed to bid will require judgement. There may even be some criteria in the final round that isn't merely financial. We'll likely never know.

If you ask me, the reason why so few bid on the team is because in Buffalo it may not be the investment that some seem to think it is.

It's a terrible investment for a net income point of view. But as a store of value with a reliable price appreciation it's exceptional for an investment of this size and risk.

The last we heard the trust now has to decide which of the three parties will be allowed to bid on it finally. If they narrow it down by one, Pegula has a chance to alter his bid. I'm not sure if he can lower it as well as he can increase it, not sure anyone knows right now. But if so, then reducing the number of bidders works against getting maximum bid for the team.

We don't have any evidence they want a maximum bid, and we do have at least a little evidence to the contrary.

If Ralph was interested in maximizing his return he wouldn't have put all his assets in a trust to be sold off in a single tax year. There aren't lots of estate planning attorneys that would recommend that plan. His estate is going to give up a fortune to the IRS. Honestly, his estate the most baffling part of the entire sale. Maybe he's just weird about his money or maybe there was a reason. Who the **** knows.

[jimmifli]

I don't think that's how capital gains works in cases like this.

Around the time of Ralph's passing, I read articles that said the value of the team at the time of his death will be assessed. I think it's safe to say that would be in the neighborhood of the Forbes estimate of $870 million.

The estate would pay capital gains taxes on the difference between the sale price and the assessed valuation, not the original $25K AFL franchise fee.

So if it's Pegula's $1.3B bid, they would pay capital gains taxes on the $430M difference, which would be in the $110-130M range, depending on the rate.

Nope. There is no reset. His capital investment of $25,000 is being sold for $1.x billion dollars. His estate must pay the capital gains on the full amount that his capital gained.

[swiper]

Felch. ROFL.

[NoVabillsfan89]

Nope. There is no reset. His capital investment of $25,000 is being sold for $1.x billion dollars. His estate must pay the capital gains on the full amount that his capital gained.

Not according to this article:

"Ralph C. Wilson Jr. was adamant that he wanted to remain the sole owner of the Buffalo Bills while he was alive, and he was passionate about keeping the team in town.

But he also may have had a financial incentive for not selling the NFL franchise before his death Tuesday.


If Wilson had sold the team while he was alive, he might have had to pay income taxes based on the profit from his 1959 investment of just $25,000. The team is valued at $870 million.

When the team is sold now, however, his heirs or estate would likely pay capital gains taxes based on the difference between the value of the team at the time of his death and the eventual sale price."

http://www.buffalonews.com/city-regi...bills-20140326

[stuckincincy]

Not according to this article:

"Ralph C. Wilson Jr. was adamant that he wanted to remain the sole owner of the Buffalo Bills while he was alive, and he was passionate about keeping the team in town.

But he also may have had a financial incentive for not selling the NFL franchise before his death Tuesday.


If Wilson had sold the team while he was alive, he might have had to pay income taxes based on the profit from his 1959 investment of just $25,000. The team is valued at $870 million.

When the team is sold now, however, his heirs or estate would likely pay capital gains taxes based on the difference between the value of the team at the time of his death and the eventual sale price."

http://www.buffalonews.com/city-regi...bills-20140326

Sorry - can't read your link - it grays out and then asks me to pay $ for a subscription.

[Fletch]

Yes. And I understand what a marriage is too. And there is no ****ing way this gets drawn up without her involvement.

So if she were to die right now then there's no way the team could be sold.

Right. You're a fool. You're going to look like even more of a fool posting nonsense after the team is sold.

Were you one of the ones insisting that the sale would take years too? I'm guessing you were, just about everyone was. I took heat for suggesting that it could be much much sooner.

[Fletch]

Actually jimmifli, it appears that you're going to look like a fool right now. Here's a piece dated yesterday from an insurance trade publication of some sort, and yeah, I'm sure you know more than the author, that much is given. Otherwise, the piece states pretty much exactly what my sentiments have been here.

http://insurancenewsnet.com/oarticle...-a-538753.html

I've been waiting for a piece like this to serve as the ramrod that's apparently necessary to penetrate the pillbox like concrete brains of some of you here.

Some key excerpts:

Ralph C. Wilson Jr.'s last will and testament leaves no clues about the late Buffalo Bills owner's intentions regarding the sale of the team.
Instead, Wilson's will -- filed in Wayne County Probate Court last month and obtained by The Buffalo News this week -- leaves all the important details of his estate to a trust agreement that, under Michigan law, is not public.
"All the meat is actually in that trust," said Daniel S. Hoops, a Michiganattorney who specializes in estate planning, who reviewed Wilson's will at the request of The Buffalo News.

But the legal structure Wilson set up leaves a huge question unanswered:
Did the Bills founder -- whose loyalty to Buffalo was legendary -- plan his estate to include a provision encouraging or even requiring the trust that now controls the team to sell it to an owner who would agree to keep it in Buffalo?
We may never know the answer to that question, even if Wilson's estate sells the Bills to an owner who vows that the team will remain in Buffalo for decades to come.
Much remains unknown about those bids. In fact, while news reports have pegged Pegula's offer as high as $1.3 billion, two sources deeply plugged into the Bills sale process said Thursday that every bid number that has been reported so far is wrong.
Wilson's will does little to shed any more light on the sales process.

"It is what is called a pour-over will," in which the writer of the will creates a trust that assumes control of all his or her assets upon death, said
David H. Alexander, an estate attorney with Gross Shuman Brizdle & Gilfillan in Buffalo.The key provision of his will says: "I give my residuary estate, real and personal, to the then-acting trustees under the Ralph C. Wilson Jr. Amended and Restated Trust Agreement Dated September 20, 1978, that I have amended and restated contemporaneously with the signature of this will, to be disposed of as provided in that Trust Agreement, including any amendments to it signed after today."

Previous media reports have indicated that the four trustees now in charge of the estate are Wilson's widow,
Mary Wilson;
Mary Owen, Bills executive vice president of strategic planning;
Jeffrey C. Littmann, Bills chief financial officer; and Detroit-based attorney
Eugene Driker.The will names Wilson, Littmann and Driker as "personal co-representatives" of Wilson's estate, and says that if any of those three cannot serve in that role, Owen -- Wilson's niece -- will do so.
While leaving Wilson's estate in the hands of a trust, the will does not offer any specifics about the legal nature of the trust, or whether it is a charitable trust. That makes a big difference, Michigan lawyers said, because a noncharitable trust is not required to sell its assets to the highest bidder. That would mean Wilson -- who kept the Bills in Buffalo for decades when it might have been more lucrative for him to move the team -- hypothetically could have included a provision in his trust agreement that specifies that the Bills could only be sold to an owner who would keep the team in Buffalo.

Now you and others can quit being ignorant ignoramuses and quit spewing out your vitriol thinking you know better than everyone else when you're flat out wrong, largely because you're proven flat out wrong and otherwise because the things you say are unknown and may never be known, so unless you're really special, that means you don't know.

Meanwhile, it also appears that everyone's assumption that Pegs' has bid $1.3B is not correct.

This place is a masterpiece in jumping to conclusions.

[stuckincincy]

[QUOTE=Fletch;3970812]Actually jimmifli, it appears that you're going to look like a fool right now. Here's a piece dated yesterday from an insurance trade publication of some sort, and yeah, I'm sure you know more than the author, that much is given. Otherwise, the piece states pretty much exactly what my sentiments have been here.

http://insurancenewsnet.com/oarticle...-a-538753.html

I've been waiting for a piece like this to serve as the ramrod that's apparently necessary to penetrate the pillbox like concrete brains of some of you here.

Some key excerpts:

Ralph C. Wilson Jr.'s last will and testament leaves no clues about the late Buffalo Bills owner's intentions regarding the sale of the team.
Instead, Wilson's will -- filed in Wayne County Probate Court last month and obtained by The Buffalo News this week -- leaves all the important details of his estate to a trust agreement that, under Michigan law, is not public.
"All the meat is actually in that trust," said Daniel S. Hoops, a Michiganattorney who specializes in estate planning, who reviewed Wilson's will at the request of The Buffalo News.

But the legal structure Wilson set up leaves a huge question unanswered:
Did the Bills founder -- whose loyalty to Buffalo was legendary -- plan his estate to include a provision encouraging or even requiring the trust that now controls the team to sell it to an owner who would agree to keep it in Buffalo?
We may never know the answer to that question, even if Wilson's estate sells the Bills to an owner who vows that the team will remain in Buffalo for decades to come.
Much remains unknown about those bids. In fact, while news reports have pegged Pegula's offer as high as $1.3 billion, two sources deeply plugged into the Bills sale process said Thursday that every bid number that has been reported so far is wrong.
Wilson's will does little to shed any more light on the sales process.

"It is what is called a pour-over will," in which the writer of the will creates a trust that assumes control of all his or her assets upon death, said
David H. Alexander, an estate attorney with Gross Shuman Brizdle & Gilfillan in Buffalo.The key provision of his will says: "I give my residuary estate, real and personal, to the then-acting trustees under the Ralph C. Wilson Jr. Amended and Restated Trust Agreement Dated September 20, 1978, that I have amended and restated contemporaneously with the signature of this will, to be disposed of as provided in that Trust Agreement, including any amendments to it signed after today."

Previous media reports have indicated that the four trustees now in charge of the estate are Wilson's widow,
Mary Wilson;
Mary Owen, Bills executive vice president of strategic planning;
Jeffrey C. Littmann, Bills chief financial officer; and Detroit-based attorney
Eugene Driker.The will names Wilson, Littmann and Driker as "personal co-representatives" of Wilson's estate, and says that if any of those three cannot serve in that role, Owen -- Wilson's niece -- will do so.
While leaving Wilson's estate in the hands of a trust, the will does not offer any specifics about the legal nature of the trust, or whether it is a charitable trust. That makes a big difference, Michigan lawyers said, because a noncharitable trust is not required to sell its assets to the highest bidder. That would mean Wilson -- who kept the Bills in Buffalo for decades when it might have been more lucrative for him to move the team -- hypothetically could have included a provision in his trust agreement that specifies that the Bills could only be sold to an owner who would keep the team in Buffalo.

Now you and others can quit being ignorant ignoramuses and quit spewing out your vitriol thinking you know better than everyone else when you're flat out wrong, largely because you're proven flat out wrong and otherwise because the things you say are unknown and may never be known, so unless you're really special, that means you don't know.

This place is a masterpiece in jumping to conclusions.

What this place is about, is discussing topics. It is a casual place to kick around mutual interests, Bills football in this case and not a place to excessively p*ss and moan, pick fights, and hang out in the wings, waiting to dump a link in some sort of personal justification, some need to voice a schoolyard "I told ya so!"

I'm happy to read information, happy to see members bring such forth. I'm not happy to see a member scour the net for third party words so they can use such for an an attempt to rub it in other folk's faces.

I read your posts, I pay attention to your football posts. I like them. But you need to stop finding fault down to the atomic level. Lighten up..I've gone overboard myself on sites. Been there done that.

Pax.

[jimmifli]

So if she were to die right now then there's no way the team could be sold.

Right. You're a fool. You're going to look like even more of a fool posting nonsense after the team is sold.

Were you one of the ones insisting that the sale would take years too? I'm guessing you were, just about everyone was. I took heat for suggesting that it could be much much sooner.

What the **** are you talking about?

You're not making any sense and you're incomprehensible argument doesn't seem to be related to my posts in anyway other than the fact that you used my name.

[jimmifli]

Actually jimmifli, it appears that you're going to look like a fool right now. Here's a piece dated yesterday from an insurance trade publication of some sort, and yeah, I'm sure you know more than the author, that much is given. Otherwise, the piece states pretty much exactly what my sentiments have been here.

http://insurancenewsnet.com/oarticle...-a-538753.html

I've been waiting for a piece like this to serve as the ramrod that's apparently necessary to penetrate the pillbox like concrete brains of some of you here.

Some key excerpts:

Ralph C. Wilson Jr.'s last will and testament leaves no clues about the late Buffalo Bills owner's intentions regarding the sale of the team.
Instead, Wilson's will -- filed in Wayne County Probate Court last month and obtained by The Buffalo News this week -- leaves all the important details of his estate to a trust agreement that, under Michigan law, is not public.
"All the meat is actually in that trust," said Daniel S. Hoops, a Michiganattorney who specializes in estate planning, who reviewed Wilson's will at the request of The Buffalo News.

But the legal structure Wilson set up leaves a huge question unanswered:
Did the Bills founder -- whose loyalty to Buffalo was legendary -- plan his estate to include a provision encouraging or even requiring the trust that now controls the team to sell it to an owner who would agree to keep it in Buffalo?
We may never know the answer to that question, even if Wilson's estate sells the Bills to an owner who vows that the team will remain in Buffalo for decades to come.
Much remains unknown about those bids. In fact, while news reports have pegged Pegula's offer as high as $1.3 billion, two sources deeply plugged into the Bills sale process said Thursday that every bid number that has been reported so far is wrong.
Wilson's will does little to shed any more light on the sales process.

"It is what is called a pour-over will," in which the writer of the will creates a trust that assumes control of all his or her assets upon death, said
David H. Alexander, an estate attorney with Gross Shuman Brizdle & Gilfillan in Buffalo.The key provision of his will says: "I give my residuary estate, real and personal, to the then-acting trustees under the Ralph C. Wilson Jr. Amended and Restated Trust Agreement Dated September 20, 1978, that I have amended and restated contemporaneously with the signature of this will, to be disposed of as provided in that Trust Agreement, including any amendments to it signed after today."

Previous media reports have indicated that the four trustees now in charge of the estate are Wilson's widow,
Mary Wilson;
Mary Owen, Bills executive vice president of strategic planning;
Jeffrey C. Littmann, Bills chief financial officer; and Detroit-based attorney
Eugene Driker.The will names Wilson, Littmann and Driker as "personal co-representatives" of Wilson's estate, and says that if any of those three cannot serve in that role, Owen -- Wilson's niece -- will do so.
While leaving Wilson's estate in the hands of a trust, the will does not offer any specifics about the legal nature of the trust, or whether it is a charitable trust. That makes a big difference, Michigan lawyers said, because a noncharitable trust is not required to sell its assets to the highest bidder. That would mean Wilson -- who kept the Bills in Buffalo for decades when it might have been more lucrative for him to move the team -- hypothetically could have included a provision in his trust agreement that specifies that the Bills could only be sold to an owner who would keep the team in Buffalo.

Now you and others can quit being ignorant ignoramuses and quit spewing out your vitriol thinking you know better than everyone else when you're flat out wrong, largely because you're proven flat out wrong and otherwise because the things you say are unknown and may never be known, so unless you're really special, that means you don't know.

Meanwhile, it also appears that everyone's assumption that Pegs' has bid $1.3B is not correct.

This place is a masterpiece in jumping to conclusions.

Can you indicate which part of this "makes me look like a fool"?

It seems to me that it agrees entirely with everything I've said. She was involved in the estate planning process. The process is opaque and will likely remain that way. They can include criteria other than financial factors when making the decision.

[NoVabillsfan89]

Sorry - can't read your link - it grays out and then asks me to pay $ for a subscription.

Not trying to make anyone look foolish, but I included the relevant text:

"When the team is sold now, however, his heirs or estate would likely pay capital gains taxes based on the difference between the value of the team at the time of his death and the eventual sale price."

That's kinda what I said in my original post, only to be told "Nope".