Says the man who would sign Ray Rice and Aaron Hernandez, were it possible.Originally Posted by BillsOverDolphins
In the game of life, you're the loser.
Says the man who would sign Ray Rice and Aaron Hernandez, were it possible.
In the game of life, you're the loser.
I liked 1970 . . .
Yeah, I want talented football players who can help my team win--if the hypothetical scenario presented itself, they would be exponential upgrades at their respective positions.
In the game of life I'm infinitely more successful than you, but I'm sure your good-guy routine will impress the menopausal militia here--which is your ultimate goal.
Oh no!...We suck again!
That would be ok if he was a 3rd round or later pick.
http://www.tomahawknation.com/2013/4...-florida-state
In order to make any kind of assessment of EJ Manuel's pro prospects, there has to be a clear understanding of where he is as a quarterback at the end of his college career. In all the attributes that one would look for in a potential NFL quarterback (footwork, mechanics, accuracy, ability to read a defense, pocket movement/escapability, running ability, etc. etc.)
EJ has demonstrated high levels of proficiency at times. He has also displayed levels of inconsistency at even the fundamental aspects of quarterback play that raise serious questions about his ultimate ceiling as a QB. The frustrating part of these inconsistencies is that they are so very inconsistent and appear seemingly at random. For a coach trying to address these issues it must feel like a game of whack-a-mole; as soon as you resolve one deficiency, another that you thought you had fixed reappears. This suggests a quarterback who has not sufficiently mastered the fundamental aspects of the position to the point that they happen automatically.
If EJ is thinking about footwork, then mechanics go to hell. If he starts to think about mechanics and footwork, then he forgets to make a necessary pass protection check, etc. etc. While I do not know EJ on a personal level, I would feel very comfortable stating as fact that he is a very intelligent person and a very hard worker. Further, he has been coached by an excellent QB coach for five years. Given that there are no suspected issues with work ethic or lack of quality coaching, EJ's inconsistency presents a problem that I don't think can be waved away with the notion that Jimbo Fisher's coaching style didn't mesh with EJ. The question an NFL team has to answer for themselves when deciding where to draft EJ is whether he is simply a late bloomer who develops at a slower rate than others (certainly possible), or whether he has limited aptitude for the position.
For more, just Google Tim Tebow.
EJ is toast.
The sooner you accept that, the sooner you'll stop sounding so clueless.
Success is a nebulous term. I am certain our criteria differs immensely.
I don't care who I impress or don't impress. I state what I believe and think, just as you do.
It depends what's causing the inaccuracy.
There was something he said in OTA's that was telling to me...
He said something like "we work so hard to set up plays, and guys work so hard to get open. At the last moment, I get this idea in my head not to screw up."
He's got the disease suffered by Rube in Major League 2, when he couldn't throw the ball back to the pitcher.
"Rube, what do you think about when you throw the ball back to the pitcher?"
"I worry about screwing up and throwing the ball into centerfield"
"What do you think about when you throw the ball to 2nd base to throw out a runner"?
"Oh, there's no time to think, I just throw it"
"Beginning to understand?"
It seems to make sense to me, as some of his throws...were just so off...and should be easy throws.
But the second part of what you say, I totally agree with.
In the end, it doesn't matter. You can't have a starting QB that only connects on 3 of 10 throws to his WR's.
Name some betting terms.
He'll never start another game, barring injury, as a Buffalo Bill.
There was a highly promising pitcher for the Cardinals named Rick Ankiel. He got a bad case of "the yips" and started throwing the ball over the backstop on a regular basis. He never recovered and eventually became an outfielder.
Maybe a position change would be in order for EJ. But a location change would be better.
The problem with QBs and accuracy is exponentially harder than with Pitchers. Pitchers don't have 250-330 lb. men trying to decapitate them.
QB footwork can be improved, but only under perfect situations can it really help, i.e. when the QB is not being chased or off balance. EJ doesn't have a problem in drills.
But when the bullets are flying, there are just WAY too many things to think about. The mechanical part of the game--the footwork, the balance, the arm angle, the release, the last-instant snap of the wrist for torque, the yanking down of the non-throwing arm to get the shoulders and torso to rotate (these are just some of the elements of a proper delivery)--needs to be second nature by this level.
And that's before you add the reading and analysis of defensive schemes and matchups to the equation.
That's why the mechanics need to be embedded. They need to be something EJ doesn't have to even think about. And that's the problem. Those mechanics, by and large, are mastered in high school, then tweaked like a golf swing throughout a career.
And even with those automatic mechanics, there's still a huge God-given element to accuracy. Some have it, some don't. EJ has made it abundantly clear that he's in the "don't" column.
He just has too far to go. And to add even more to the huge challenge he faces, the type of full speed experience needed to improve can only come in live, regular season game play. The Bills concluded 4 games ago that they can't afford to serve as a facilitator of on the job training for EJ Manuel, especially when he was showing zero progress.
Listen, I get it. People want EJ to succeed for a couple of reasons. First, because they had such high hopes for him. Second, because he's a great kid. And third, because they invested all this equity arguing for him and defending him, and they don't want to admit how dead wrong they were.
But the reality of the situation is underscored by the team's play under Orton. This is a guy picked off the scrap heap. Plucked from his Lazy Boy. A guy with moderate talent, who now has the team fighting for a playoff spot.
This wouldn't have happened with EJ getting his on the job training. And it won't ever happen with EJ starting for this team.
Last edited by WagonCircler; 10-31-2014 at 11:59 AM.
starrymessenger (11-01-2014)
This isn't about your opinion or mine. Its about the Bills assesing the value of a young player. Doesn't matter if you like it or not, the kid will get another opportunity.
Why will he get another opportunity?
He's another guy like Akili Smith, Dan McGwire, Jim Druckenmiller, Cade McNown, Brandon Weeden, Matt Leinart, Brady Quinn, Kyle Boller, etc...
All over drafted bums who after they crapped the bed when they got an initial opportunity, never got another starting opportunity again.
EJ may hang around the league for another 3-5 years but he'll never amount to anything just like all those guys I listed.
WagonCircler (10-31-2014)
Losman did not have the mental strength and poise that Manual does. That is a huge difference. Manual was having trouble processing out there and that can change. He wasn't ready and was in over his head. Those things can change. We haven't really seen what he can do IMO.
djjimkelly (10-31-2014),Dr. Who (11-01-2014),trapezeus (10-31-2014)
I've already stated in an earlier post.
Too many of the following:
Orton injury due to increased sack totals and porous line.
Orton not getting younger.
Bills understanding their Investment.
Post evaluation behind a sound veteran QB.
Lack of high picks in 2015
QB talent availability in FA and draft
EJ has all the intangibles but was drafted to be mentored based on rawness. The mentoring never materialised until now.
Still too young and inexperienced to pass long term judgement. Some QBs take time to develop. How long before Orton came around?
Whaley/Marrone/Hackett 1st round pick. As long as they remain EJ does as well until absolutely determined to not be NFL caliber.
Marrone a man of his word and pretty much stated as much.
Last edited by RedEyE; 10-31-2014 at 12:54 PM.
Dr. Who (10-31-2014)
ej, like orton is a likable guy. losman was a struggle to like.
i am not sure if he can or can not turn the corner. i hope he does when he's given his chance again.
what i do know is that he's essentially a .500 qb, and that by whaley's assessment is all he's looking for from a backup. so i suspect EJ is with us this year and next with no issue.
it really comes down to if i he is really doing the things he's saying. Accuracy aside, he plays like the game is fast for him. if he is able ot have it slow down, perhaps his accuracy becomes more reliable.
i think it's probably weighted against him since he has only had maybe 3 or 4 accurate games and about 10-12 inaccurate ones. but i really would like for him to get it, drew brees style.
Dr. Who (10-31-2014)
I get why you chose Drew Brees, because he got a second chance to start. But Drew Brees is one of the most accurate passers in NFL history. EJ has zero chance of ever becoming anything like Drew Brees.
Brees wasn't statistically in his first 3 years. that third year he started to get it, but it was late and they drafted rivers. he bloomed the following year.
i don't disagree that ej looks wildly inaccurate, but i don't know enough about qb coaching on if that can be fixed if the game slows down for an athlete. everything else from calm demeanor to being a hard worker is there for EJ. in the games he's struggled, he's just looked like he was in over his head.
i don't think it's a foregone conclusion that he can't get better, but we know he isn't the QB for the bills current quest this year. but i do think we'll see him again at some point this year.
I think we learned from Trent Edwards that cluelessness can be mistaken for a calm demeanor.
Brees was in the wrong Offense and in a bad situation in San Diego. But he wasn't missing guys by twenty yards, or getting his receivers hurt by stretching them out. His problems were completely different than EJs, and as such, were solvable. EJ's are not.
And I do think it's a foregone conclusion. Not just by me, but by the league.
what i dont get is why some people cant differentiate that its ok to love orton and pray for current success and at the same time its ok to HOPE that EJ and all of his good and bad tools will pay dividends one day (maybe EJ never gets the chance to start here again becuz orton is killing it)
according to a couple fan bases that watched him full time, im sure orton is trash in their heads....... but for now hes the man here and doing a hell of a job.
Novacane (11-01-2014)
In the first place, nowhere in that article does it say a QB can not become more accurate.
In the 2nd place, the writer, Bud Elliott is not a QB "EXPERT".
Link an article written by a bona fide NFL "EXPERT" that says accuracy can not be learned or improved.
EJ Manuel building trust into his game
Posted 5 hours ago
Chris Brown Bills Insider Email @ChrisBrownBills Blog: Inside the Bills
Manuel immersed himself in the playbook this past offseason. He knows plays like the back of his hand. Pre-snap checks, package play options and finding the mismatch were all things he had a firm grasp of heading into training camp. Even his reads of coverages post-snap were improving. His main issue was trusting what he was seeing in his read and pulling the trigger on time.
In not consistently trusting his own eyes there was hesitation and that hesitation led to a disruption in the timing of the passing game, thereby making it more difficult to connect on throws with his intended receivers. In fact Downing believes Manuel’s completion percentage of 58 percent can be directly tied to that issue.
“People have a big misconception about accuracy for quarterbacks. People think that because a quarterback is accurate it’s because he has great aim with the football. It’s not aim,” said Downing. “There are some throws where you need great aim, but most of the time accuracy comes from being on time and throwing it to the right spot in the read. In other words a quarterback who is real accurate on boundary throws operates in his play action drop efficiently and gets the ball out on time so he’s able to throw the receiver to the sideline and it’s a catch and a toe tap.
“A quarterback that might be perceived as having bad accuracy might just have bad timing. He hangs too long at the top of his drop and now all of a sudden that out route breaks and by the time he looks to throw the ball is back behind the receiver’s shoulder.
“The things that we’re able to do with EJ is see when he’s efficient in his drop and at the top he hitches and lets the ball go confidently it’s going to wind up where he wants it because he has the arm talent to get it there. EJ needs to hear that over and over again. He’s got all the ability in the world to get it done he just needs to piece it all together.”
Last edited by Dr. Who; 11-01-2014 at 08:10 AM.
RedEyE (11-02-2014)
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