This was the Jets

[mightysimi]

Well yeah, I guess it does, matter how we get the wins that is.

I've always thought that the goal for all of us was not only to make the playoffs but do something in them besides get smoked in the WC round.

I guess I can say that 15 years of this crap has definitely lowered the expectations of our fans, which is understandable. But yeah, I guess that's the difference then, which is why my posts reflect that. I'm not going to be happy until we are at a point where we have a legitimate shot at beating the Pats everytime that we play them, or teams like SD, GB, Denver, Philly, Seattle and that caliber of team. I'm not saying that I would be unhappy if we didn't beat them every time, just saying that I'd be happy when we are at a point when we have a legitimate shot every week and not just some random "on any given Sunday" kinda shot that's rarely materialized for us and that extended play against the better teams (like playoffs) isn't sustainable with.

For me simply beating up teams that have major issues and no realistic shot at making the playoffs other than in an NFCS 2014 type of scenario just doesn't do much for me. Maybe my expectations are too high, I don't know. Maybe I should just enjoy those victories more and settle for the realization that yeah, we might win 8 or 9 games but play down my hopes of much beyond that.

But I guess that my memories of the late '80s and '90s make that difficult for me. To be honest though, I think I'd just rather stop watching that cash in on that hope. Again, maybe that's wrong or something, and I understand the sentiment on your side of the aisle here, particularly given our history over the last 15 years or so and the notion that just making the playoffs would be a small feat in and of itself, but I just can't bring myself to accept that.

I can totally understand not accepting mediocrity however, I feel for the first time in 15 that we have talent, direction and are upgrading positions now as opposed to always filling glaring holes. Are we there yet? No but I think we are on our way. Unless we blow it all up then it's another rebuild. To me it feels good talking about a meaningful game in November for a change.

[YardRat]

So in essence you're taking issue with my point that Houston and KC are nothing more than average teams.

You must therefore think that one or both is above average.

I disagree and you're not going to find anyone that's worth asking to agree with you on that.

75% of the league is average, and the other 25% is split between 'above' and 'below'. So what. Also, the other 25% is neither unbeatable, or completely hopeless, depending on which end of the spectrum they fall. The difference between 7-4 and 4-7 isn't a vast disparity in talent, and it sure as hell isn't wrapped up in statistics. It's catching a break here and there, and making a play or two (or lack thereof) that separates the 'winners' from losers. As for the Bills specifically, only a stat whore wouldn't recognize that the team is maybe a half-dozen plays over the course of the season so far from being 8-3/9-2, or 3-8.

[Fletch]

I can totally understand not accepting mediocrity however, I feel for the first time in 15 that we have talent, direction and are upgrading positions now as opposed to always filling glaring holes. Are we there yet? No but I think we are on our way. Unless we blow it all up then it's another rebuild. To me it feels good talking about a meaningful game in November for a change.

Well, again, I tend to separate mathematically meaningful from effectively meaningful. In theory the Texans are playing a meaningful game this weekend as are Minnesota, Carolina, Tampa, Washington, St. Louis, and the Giants.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/standings/playoffrace

I don't see that we're much more than a mediocre team right now based on all the things that I've mentioned. This will shake out one way or another, either everyone's going to be agreeing in a few weeks or I'll have to say "hey, my analysis has been off."

We have played meaningful games in November and even December in recent history. Remember '04, we were fighting to make the playoffs against the Steelers backups.

Three seasons ago in 2011 in a season not all that unlike this one we were very much alive on Thanksgiving weekend at 5-5.

In 2008 we were also 6-5 going into a Nov. 30th game and even after a loss and at 6-6 were still very much "alive" going into December. I see this season mirroring that one and that season we beat the division winning Chargers despite the fact that they were only 8-8.

In 2007 we were 7-6 and also very much "alive" going into mid-December and that season we beat the Skins who made a wild card.

In 2006 we wer 7-7 going into week 16 and also very much alive. KC made a wild card at 9-7.

So yeah, in 2012 and last season we didn't have a "meaningful" game, but other than that 4 of the 6 prior seasons and 4 of the last 8 overall really weren't much different than this season. Whereas I see this season in the same light that you might view our '11, '08, '07, and '06 seasons now, I think in two more seasons you and everyone else will be viewing it the same. Again, I have not seen our ability to make this season any different. Everyone's pinning the entirety of our hopes on the D but the D hasn't proven that it can come close to playing well against good offensive teams, only average and particuarly very poor offensive teams like Detroit, the Jets, Minnesota, and Chicago, all of which rank 20th or lower, three of the four 27th, 28th, and 30th in scoring, and not significantly better in yardage.

The couple of average teams we've played we've more or less held them to their season scoring averages. More against NE and they did a lot of their damage with LaFell and Tyms, Gronk was hardly involved on their scoring drives as I pointed out earlier this year. Yes, I'm sure he helped by drawing coverage, but come on, our D can't cover Tyms and LaFell with single coverage by average DBs? So it comes down to a matter of perspective. That was Tyms only catch on the season. Edelman may hit 1,000 yards this season but for a team that's gonna throw for around 4,500 that's not all that impressive as a second leading WR and his 10 ypr isn't either. LaFell's not going to hit that mark. They're all mediocre WRs.

Will I watch? Of course. Will I be pulling for us? Absolutely. But that's different than sitting here and attempting to discuss reality in an objective manner. I can take my shirt off and paint myself blue and red and tape a Bills flag to my head and run around the parking lot at the Ralph throughout the game, but that's not going to factor into whether or not we can beat teams like GB, NE, and Denver either now or even teams like Indy, KC (since we already lost to them at home), or whichever team wins the Norh, we've proven that we cannot beat teams like that to this point. KC, SD, NE, and recently a tracking Miami team are all losses.

[Fletch]

75% of the league is average, and the other 25% is split between 'above' and 'below'. So what. Also, the other 25% is neither unbeatable, or completely hopeless, depending on which end of the spectrum they fall. The difference between 7-4 and 4-7 isn't a vast disparity in talent, and it sure as hell isn't wrapped up in statistics. It's catching a break here and there, and making a play or two (or lack thereof) that separates the 'winners' from losers. As for the Bills specifically, only a stat whore wouldn't recognize that the team is maybe a half-dozen plays over the course of the season so far from being 8-3/9-2, or 3-8.

Well, that's an opinion that is subjective. I'd argue that average is teams that are generally in that 12th - 18th range, above is 1-12 or so, and below is 18-20 and worse.

Here's part of what I'm saying, of the 12 teams presently slated to make the playoffs, presumably on or about the best 12 with maybe a couple of exceptions like San Fran, Baltimore, Pitt, or Cleveland (we'll see tomorrow on them), we haven't played any in the NFC, and we've played 3 in the AFC, all three at home, and lost all three with our D not being very impressive at all except for mildly so in the KC game, but with KC also being the worst of the three offenses and a very average offense otherwise. We allowed NE to put up 5 more points than their season average and SD their season average when they don't take east coast trips very well and when Matthews didn't even play and Allen was limited. We didn't even get their offensive A-game and still couldn't hold them to below average points here in Buffalo. That's not impressive. It also doesn't show that our D is as primetime as many insist that it is.

So while a bunch of people, most here, are talking about chances of us beating teams like GB, Denver, or Cleveland, so far we haven't beaten two teams that are of that general caliber and two that are worse than two of them. So my point is that presently there is no basis for thinking that we'll beat better teams than the ones we've already lost to.

This conversation changes entirely if we can beat teams like Denver or GB, clearly everyone's thrown in the towel on beating the Pats in Foxboro for understandable reasons. But if we can't even beat Cleveland tomorrow, here at home in a high energy game, a team with a terrible rushing defense and a very average scoring offense, then this discussion ends going the other way.

The thing that most don't seem to have picked up on is how we only win games in which we come up on the positive side of the TO ratio.

We're 5-2 when we have a positive TO ratio. We're 1-3 if we're neutral or negative with our only win there having been against the Vikes in a very unimpressive manner.

Here's the problem for us, GB, NE, Denver, and Cleveland all rank in the top-10 for fewest giveaways. GB and NE are 1st and 2nd.

[mightysimi]

Well, again, I tend to separate mathematically meaningful from effectively meaningful. In theory the Texans are playing a meaningful game this weekend as are Minnesota, Carolina, Tampa, Washington, St. Louis, and the Giants.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/standings/playoffrace

I don't see that we're much more than a mediocre team right now based on all the things that I've mentioned. This will shake out one way or another, either everyone's going to be agreeing in a few weeks or I'll have to say "hey, my analysis has been off."

We have played meaningful games in November and even December in recent history. Remember '04, we were fighting to make the playoffs against the Steelers backups.

Three seasons ago in 2011 in a season not all that unlike this one we were very much alive on Thanksgiving weekend at 5-5.

In 2008 we were also 6-5 going into a Nov. 30th game and even after a loss and at 6-6 were still very much "alive" going into December. I see this season mirroring that one and that season we beat the division winning Chargers despite the fact that they were only 8-8.

In 2007 we were 7-6 and also very much "alive" going into mid-December and that season we beat the Skins who made a wild card.

In 2006 we wer 7-7 going into week 16 and also very much alive. KC made a wild card at 9-7.

So yeah, in 2012 and last season we didn't have a "meaningful" game, but other than that 4 of the 6 prior seasons and 4 of the last 8 overall really weren't much different than this season. Whereas I see this season in the same light that you might view our '11, '08, '07, and '06 seasons now, I think in two more seasons you and everyone else will be viewing it the same. Again, I have not seen our ability to make this season any different. Everyone's pinning the entirety of our hopes on the D but the D hasn't proven that it can come close to playing well against good offensive teams, only average and particuarly very poor offensive teams like Detroit, the Jets, Minnesota, and Chicago, all of which rank 20th or lower, three of the four 27th, 28th, and 30th in scoring, and not significantly better in yardage.

The couple of average teams we've played we've more or less held them to their season scoring averages. More against NE and they did a lot of their damage with LaFell and Tyms, Gronk was hardly involved on their scoring drives as I pointed out earlier this year. Yes, I'm sure he helped by drawing coverage, but come on, our D can't cover Tyms and LaFell with single coverage by average DBs? So it comes down to a matter of perspective. That was Tyms only catch on the season. Edelman may hit 1,000 yards this season but for a team that's gonna throw for around 4,500 that's not all that impressive as a second leading WR and his 10 ypr isn't either. LaFell's not going to hit that mark. They're all mediocre WRs.

Will I watch? Of course. Will I be pulling for us? Absolutely. But that's different than sitting here and attempting to discuss reality in an objective manner. I can take my shirt off and paint myself blue and red and tape a Bills flag to my head and run around the parking lot at the Ralph throughout the game, but that's not going to factor into whether or not we can beat teams like GB, NE, and Denver either now or even teams like Indy, KC (since we already lost to them at home), or whichever team wins the Norh, we've proven that we cannot beat teams like that to this point. KC, SD, NE, and recently a tracking Miami team are all losses.

Your example of recent history is 10 years ago. Yes we had similar records in certain years but this is the first team where I expect to not only challenge but to win. Those other teams it was I hope we don't collapse and grab defeat out of the jaws of victory which has been played out many, many times before. Any of those teams you reference can't hold a candle to this team in terms of pure talent. As much as I would love to smash everyone like the Jets, it itsn't the reality in the NFL without a top QB. I for one will at least enjoy the ride.

[YardRat]

Well, that's an opinion that is subjective. I'd argue that average is teams that are generally in that 12th - 18th range, above is 1-12 or so, and below is 18-20 and worse.

Granted re:subjective, to a certain point, but Sunday results on a weekly basis fly in the face of the contention that there are only 6 teams that are average.

[swiper]

The D is good. The lost opportunities against Houston and KC were the lack of an O.

I know why our record isn't better. It's the playcalling and execution (lack of) of the O.

The D has been excellent most of the time.

Hold the D together with the necessary re-signings.

Tighten up the offense at whatever the cost. Almost. No more giving away #1 draft picks unless its for a franchise QB.

[Fletch]

Your example of recent history is 10 years ago.

No, I cited examples from 3, 5, 6, and 7 seasons ago.

[mightysimi]

No, I cited examples from 3, 5, 6, and 7 seasons ago.

Yes we had similar records in certain years but this is the first team where I expect to not only challenge but to win. Those other teams it was I hope we don't collapse and grab defeat out of the jaws of victory which has been played out many, many times before. Any of those teams you reference can't hold a candle to this team in terms of pure talent. As much as I would love to smash everyone like the Jets, it itsn't the reality in the NFL without a top QB.

[Fletch]

Granted re:subjective, to a certain point, but Sunday results on a weekly basis fly in the face of the contention that there are only 6 teams that are average.

OK then, let's go what, top-10, middle-11, and bottom-11.

I'm not sure this alters either side of our arguments.

[Fletch]

Yes we had similar records in certain years but this is the first team where I expect to not only challenge but to win. Those other teams it was I hope we don't collapse and grab defeat out of the jaws of victory which has been played out many, many times before. Any of those teams you reference can't hold a candle to this team in terms of pure talent. As much as I would love to smash everyone like the Jets, it itsn't the reality in the NFL without a top QB.

Yes, and respectfully, I addressed that.

[Mr. Pink]

Granted re:subjective, to a certain point, but Sunday results on a weekly basis fly in the face of the contention that there are only 6 teams that are average.

There's a handful of teams that are dominant and then there is everyone else followed by a couple bottom feeders.

If you want to call everyone else average, then by all means. But basically every team between like 6-28 is the same.

Unfortunately there's 3 of the handful of teams still left on the schedule.

[The Jokeman]

Hold the D together with the necessary re-signings.

Tighten up the offense at whatever the cost. Almost. No more giving away #1 draft picks unless its for a franchise QB.

There's nothing wrong with "giving" away 1st Round picks as long as get contributions from other draft picks. One good thing under Whaley is we've gotten contributions from guys like Woods, Alonso, P Brown, Henderson

[swiper]

There's nothing wrong with "giving" away 1st Round picks as long as get contributions from other draft picks. One good thing under Whaley is we've gotten contributions from guys like Woods, Alonso, P Brown, Henderson

I am amazed at how "under the radar" Robert Woods continues to be. I like him more and more.

[Fletch]

There's a handful of teams that are dominant and then there is everyone else followed by a couple bottom feeders.

If you want to call everyone else average, then by all means. But basically every team between like 6-28 is the same.

Unfortunately there's 3 of the handful of teams still left on the schedule.

I don't know, that's a pretty bold statement.

Let's take the top 5 teams, say NE, Denver, GB, Philly and what, let's throw Arizona and Dallas in there too. It's all somewhat arbitrary anyway.

Then let's skim off the bottom 4. Jets, Oakland, Jets, and Tennessee? Again, somewhat arbitrary.

What you're saying is that there's no much difference between teams like Tampa, Carolina, Washington and Indy, KC, SD, Seattle, SF.

Do you really believe that?

[pmoon6]

Dildo thread, but typical considering the thread starter.

[Fletch]

Dildo thread, but typical considering the thread starter.

Happy Thanksgiving pmoon.

[pmoon6]

Happy Thanksgiving pmoon.

HaHa, same to you, man.

You almost made me feel bad for jacking with you.........almost.

[SpikedLemonade]

Dildo thread, but typical considering the thread starter.

OK.

Did someone stuff your turkey by taking a big crap in it?

[YardRat]

There's a handful of teams that are dominant and then there is everyone else followed by a couple bottom feeders.

If you want to call everyone else average, then by all means. But basically every team between like 6-28 is the same.

Unfortunately there's 3 of the handful of teams still left on the schedule.

I agree.