Someone please make a case for Orton/EJ

[BuffaloRedleg]

Not to steal the thunder from other threads about this topic, but I'd like to re-frame the discussion.

A lot of people are very passionate about their hatred for the two top candidates for a possible acquisition at QB this summer, Cutler or RGIII. That is fine, they are incredibly flawed. I get that. I don't love either of them. But I absolutely believe they are better than what we have on the roster. Either way, that's not what I'm interested in right now, that debate exists in like 4 other threads.

What I'm interested in is this: Someone please make a good case for why Orton or EJ should start next season.

Don't compare them to anyone else out there. Don't tell me "because they are better than the other options".

Just make the case for why they should be starting QBs in this league.

(ps I really don't even like this discussion that much at all anyways since we are in the heat of playoff run, and hypothetically Orton could turn into Manning and lead us to the Superbowl. I had to do it though since it is basically all over this forum and and all over the radio and we are just marking time until the huge game Sunday.)

[The Beef]

I'd let them compete in an open competition.

I'd roll with EJ as a number 2 even. I love that he said he's going to let it fly when he takes the field again. That's great to say, but if you just don't see the field how is that going to work?

I would rather roll the dice with Cutler, RG3 or Bradford. I'd probably even take the Butt Fumbler over these 2. They're both backups. EJ still has potential but he's probably a career backup. I don't think he will wash out of the league though, because he is coachable, has tools and can make some plays with his feet. I would imagine all things equal the Cardinals would take him over Lindley.

Orton looks shell shocked/punch drunk. I hope he takes a handle of Jack to the face and just says **** it these next two weeks and balls out.

But yeah, what argument is there to make? If we had a better QB we probably win at Houston, Miami and at home vs KC (Bryce Brown really killed us). We will probably be linked to almost any vet that is a potential upgrade this entire offseason.

[BillsOverDolphins]

I can't make a case for EJ...he's so robotically bad that his suckiness alone makes any alternative option better

[YardRat]

Neither Orton or EJ are Manning, Brady, Brees or Rodgers so it's impossible to make a case for either without relativity to what other options are. The only argument in favor of both is that there is nobody else available that would probably be able to provide any different results, so you ride with what you have until the opportunity becomes available to upgrade the position.

[Forward_Lateral]

Unless something better comes along, there's no need to "make a case". They are the QBs on the roster.

[BuffaloRedleg]

Neither Orton or EJ are Manning, Brady, Brees or Rodgers so it's impossible to make a case for either without relativity to what other options are. The only argument in favor of both is that there is nobody else available that would probably be able to provide any different results, so you ride with what you have until the opportunity becomes available to upgrade the position.

I bet there are people here who would have no problem making a case for Cutler, RGIII or Bradford.

[ghz in pittsburgh]

Unless Pegula interferes, I have to think the goal for Whaley and Marrone next year will be short term - making the playoff at whatever cost. (But from Pegula's view, he should veto any attempt involving 2016 1st round pick because he's here long term).

Under that circumstance, I'll bring out the Steelers' model of the early Cowher years: no franchise QB, strong run offense, and dominating D = winning. With the 2nd round pick, Whaley can likely get one of the top RBs in the draft to go with Jackson, Brown, and Dixon. In theory, they addressed the O-Line in 2014 with 3 picks and a FA, so you expect to see some fruits. The target in FA is a vet QB who can play now, not someone who has potential that you need to fix.

[BuffaloRedleg]

Unless something better comes along, there's no need to "make a case". They are the QBs on the roster.

Well let's just cancel the internet because I guess there is no need to discuss it. Let's ban all discussion about players currently on the roster because they are currently on the roster.

[Buckets]

I'd let them compete in an open competition.

I'd roll with EJ as a number 2 even. I love that he said he's going to let it fly when he takes the field again. That's great to say, but if you just don't see the field how is that going to work?

I would rather roll the dice with Cutler, RG3 or Bradford. I'd probably even take the Butt Fumbler over these 2. They're both backups. EJ still has potential but he's probably a career backup. I don't think he will wash out of the league though, because he is coachable, has tools and can make some plays with his feet. I would imagine all things equal the Cardinals would take him over Lindley.

Orton looks shell shocked/punch drunk. I hope he takes a handle of Jack to the face and just says **** it these next two weeks and balls out.

But yeah, what argument is there to make? If we had a better QB we probably win at Houston, Miami and at home vs KC (Bryce Brown really killed us). We will probably be linked to almost any vet that is a potential upgrade this entire offseason.

What makes you think he is "still coachable". He hasn't changed since starting for FL State.

[Forward_Lateral]

Well let's just cancel the internet because I guess there is no need to discuss it. Let's ban all discussion about players currently on the roster because they are currently on the roster.

You should probably just cancel yours.

[RedEyE]

The only case I can make for Orton:

He was not with the team in the off/preseason weeks and months establishing cohesion, working on timing or learning the scheme. EJ was the guy and the offense was tooled and the scheme planned around him. Once Orton came into the picture that scheme had to change and adjust more for his pocket passing abilities - and the fact the guy cannot run at all. The pass block and the receiving scheme had to be revamped. We also know that Orton has been pulling WRs into the film room with him and that this is something that hadn't been done with EJ.

My point is I would like to see what Orton can do with the offense given more time to work with the passing scheme, work with the young receivers, and (assuming holes are addresseed in the offseason) behind a more effective OLine.

The only case I can make for EJ:

When EJ was drafted he was described as a raw talent that would obviously need time to adapt to the NFL, and hone his skills behind a veteran QB. Well that never materialized. At least not until Orton showed up on the stoop of One Bills drive. He was forced in on several occasions with complicating injury.

The investment has already been made - the guy is already here - this team is becoming quite close - and I for one would still like to see what EJ has done to better himself now that he has had time with a legitimate NFL veteran QB at the helm. Despite his obvious regression early this season, EJ has shown at times that he can be a legitimate NFL competitor.

I just don't think guys like RGIII and Cutler are worth the gamble. I think we already have those similar type players here. Why dissolve the team working relationships and natural cohesiveness that has developed and start over with similar type players?

[Novacane]

I can't make the case for either. I hope they find someway to upgrade.

[RedEyE]

In addition: search the market, look at the draft, but RGIII and Cutler are nothing new and their relatively too close to their ceilings.

[trapezeus]

i think the OC change and a OL coach can make the line more run oriented. i think with their size, they can get good at that with minimal upgrades. you bring one more back into this, and all of a sudden, you aren't asking orton and EJ to do much. you are asking them to not make mistakes by having a strong running game.

both qb's struggle with throwing to a space. they like their WR open. if you are running well, the chances that WR are just open, gets better. they'll be one on one and watkins should simply get more balls thrown his way.

ortona nd EJ are not great and will never be. but the meandering play calls with no offensive identity hurts this team more than I think we know or acknowledge. Every offensive postion is under performing. to me, that seems to be unlikely that all 11-15 guys who have started or will start sucked together. something structural in the organization of the offense is lacking. the players may not need to be wildly adjusted.

[BuffaloRedleg]

You should probably just cancel yours.

So you aren't going to participate in the discussion, you're just going to stand on the sideline saying "you guys r stupid".

Great.

[BuffaloRedleg]

The only case I can make for Orton:

He was not with the team in the off/preseason weeks and months establishing cohesion, working on timing or learning the scheme. EJ was the guy and the offense was tooled and the scheme planned around him. Once Orton came into the picture that scheme had to change and adjust more for his pocket passing abilities - and the fact the guy cannot run at all. The pass block and the receiving scheme had to be revamped. We also know that Orton has been pulling WRs into the film room with him and that this is something that hadn't been done with EJ.

My point is I would like to see what Orton can do with the offense given more time to work with the passing scheme, work with the young receivers, and (assuming holes are addresseed in the offseason) behind a more effective OLine.

The only case I can make for EJ:

When EJ was drafted he was described as a raw talent that would obviously need time to adapt to the NFL, and hone his skills behind a veteran QB. Well that never materialized. At least not until Orton showed up on the stoop of One Bills drive. He was forced in on several occasions with complicating injury.

The investment has already been made - the guy is already here - this team is becoming quite close - and I for one would still like to see what EJ has done to better himself now that he has had time with a legitimate NFL veteran QB at the helm. Despite his obvious regression early this season, EJ has shown at times that he can be a legitimate NFL competitor.

I just don't think guys like RGIII and Cutler are worth the gamble. I think we already have those similar type players here. Why dissolve the team working relationships and natural cohesiveness that has developed and start over with similar type players?

I don't know man. Orton is really bad. I don't know where people get the idea he is average. He misses a lot of incredibly easy reads and passes, even when not under duress. That isn't the OC/scheme or OL, that is just a bad QB. They have had plenty of time to adjust the offense, and I don't even think the scheme would be that different. It's not like EJ played with that much mobility or was playing that differently.

EJ was a long shot from day one and he is still a long shot. An injured RGIII has a better shot of making a comeback than EJ has of becoming a starter. At least RGIII has done it before.

Nobody is saying that the new guy has to start. Trade a 2nd and bring him in. If he doesn't play then he doesn't play and we'll know for sure at that point, but at this point we are an OG and a QB away from contention. To "stay the course" would be ridiculous.

[BuffaloRedleg]

i think the OC change and a OL coach can make the line more run oriented. i think with their size, they can get good at that with minimal upgrades. you bring one more back into this, and all of a sudden, you aren't asking orton and EJ to do much. you are asking them to not make mistakes by having a strong running game.

both qb's struggle with throwing to a space. they like their WR open. if you are running well, the chances that WR are just open, gets better. they'll be one on one and watkins should simply get more balls thrown his way.

ortona nd EJ are not great and will never be. but the meandering play calls with no offensive identity hurts this team more than I think we know or acknowledge. Every offensive postion is under performing. to me, that seems to be unlikely that all 11-15 guys who have started or will start sucked together. something structural in the organization of the offense is lacking. the players may not need to be wildly adjusted.

Both QBs like their WRs open? Who doesn't? Orton and EJ seem to miss open guys all the time anyways. They are both really bad. I don't know where this average stuff comes from. Nothing in the last 5 games shows any indication that Orton is even average, let alone a starter in this league.

Wouldn't it maybe help Cutler/RGIII/Bradford whomever if they weren't asked to do as much as their current teams? I think that would help Cutler a lot. He at least has the skill to win a game for us when necessary. Orton will never be a differencemaker in a game.

[Bill Cody]

Don't compare them to anyone else out there. Don't tell me "because they are better than the other options".

Well we do live in the real world. It's all about available options.

[better days]

What makes you think he is "still coachable". He hasn't changed since starting for FL State.

Well EJ did WIN a bowl game every year he played for Fl State.

[trapezeus]

Both QBs like their WRs open? Who doesn't? Orton and EJ seem to miss open guys all the time anyways. They are both really bad. I don't know where this average stuff comes from. Nothing in the last 5 games shows any indication that Orton is even average, let alone a starter in this league.

Wouldn't it maybe help Cutler/RGIII/Bradford whomever if they weren't asked to do as much as their current teams? I think that would help Cutler a lot. He at least has the skill to win a game for us when necessary. Orton will never be a differencemaker in a game.

other teams have routes where its a pure timing patter and the QB relies on the WR to make the same read, run the right route and get there. the bills largely don't even try those plays. which A, puts stress on line protection because the qb is waiting for guys to get open. and b, makes us more one dimensional.

it's not quite as bad as the jauron years when he didn't even have audibles for theQBs. but it shows the total lack of prep by the OC for different conditions. it also impacts the teams ability to make adjustments when they don't run those kind of plays.