Tanking or trying? Sabres answer

[Guest]

Re: Tanking or trying? Sabres answer

Everyone should leave the Sabres alone and not pick on them while they are down.

They are victims of this.

There is nothing the team's management did to intentionally put them in this position.

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Everyone should leave the Sabres alone and not pick on them while they are down.

They are victims of this.

There is nothing the team's management did to intentionally put them in this position.

[gebobs]

Re: Tanking or trying? Sabres answer

The difference being is that Edmonton is playing their draft picks.

Correct! That is a difference. So what?

How many of the top prospects the Sabres have are even in the NHL? They could be learning on the fly right now.

When on the team, at what point does a player cease being a "top prospect". Let's say, first round going back five drafts.

Edmonton: Draisaitl (#3 overall), RNH (#1), Yakupov (#1), Hall (#1), Klefbom (#19).

Buffalo: Risto (#8), Zadorov, (#16), Girgs (#14).

So there you have it. Edmonton 5 - Buffalo 3. Is there really that much of a difference considering the OIlers have had four top 5 picks in that time and Buffalo has had just one and who is still just a teenager?

No.

Five drafts may be too many. Is Taylor Hall still a prospect? Not really. If we go back to just 2012, Buffalo leads 3-2.

[mightysimi]

Re: Tanking or trying? Sabres answer

Correct! That is a difference. So what?


When on the team, at what point does a player cease being a "top prospect". Let's say, first round going back five drafts.

Edmonton: Draisaitl (#3 overall), RNH (#1), Yakupov (#1), Hall (#1), Klefbom (#19).

Buffalo: Risto (#8), Zadorov, (#16), Girgs (#14).

So there you have it. Edmonton 5 - Buffalo 3. Is there really that much of a difference considering the OIlers have had four top 5 picks in that time and Buffalo has had just one and who is still just a teenager?

No.

Five drafts may be too many. Is Taylor Hall still a prospect? Not really. If we go back to just 2012, Buffalo leads 3-2.

There is no so what. Just pointing out a difference. Also to be fair, I think they sent Draisaitl back to junior too. Just to be clear though, I don't think Buffalo is doing anything wrong, but to say they are trying their best to put the best possible product on the ice isn't right.

[gebobs]

Re: Tanking or trying? Sabres answer

There is no so what. Just pointing out a difference. Also to be fair, I think they sent Draisaitl back to junior too.

Right. I counted anyone that had played at least 20 games.

Just to be clear though, I don't think Buffalo is doing anything wrong, but to say they are trying their best to put the best possible product on the ice isn't right.

Of course, it's far more complicated than that. Is Reinhart the best possible product? No. He wasn't ready. He might be better than most of the guys on the team, but sending him back to juniors was the best thing for him, the Sabres, and the fans. We aren't burning a year of contract like they did with Grigorenko.

I really can't say for sure what the Sabres could have done to make this team more competitive this year. Certainly, free agents like Gionta were more or less filler. But it's anyone's guess if the team stood a chance with any of the better free agents.

As for the prospects, I can't argue against who they decided to keep with the club. I haven't seen any games recently, but by all accounts those three are acquitting themselves fairly well. Reinhart will be a marquee player in the future and there are several others (e.g. Bailey, Lemieux, Compher, Bailey, etc.) which may emerge in the next year or so though I worry that Grigo and Armia might founder in the AHL.

The dumpster fire this year was lit back in '06 and smoldered up until last year when it became an all out conflagration.

[Mr. Pink]

Re: Tanking or trying? Sabres answer

There's a lot wrong with tanking, it fosters a losing culture and costs people in a city like Buffalo money to subsidize the tanked product. It makes a downtown winter revival with a gem of Harbor Center grimy, and makes loving a team since they were expansion, rancid and filthy.

Drafting even Gretzky in his prime, this team will not win next year, and Pegulas are dirtying what they claimed to be shining up. They are smelling up their own development and embarrassing a City they are claiming to champion with the excuse of cleaning crap off the diamond after burying it in their own crap.

That feeble shot count lost me tonight. It's debatable if they had a few more or didn't, but the NHL should step in, fine them and take away their lottery pick for staging a ridiculous shambles of pretending to play the sport. The NHL won't or can't, but this team will earn the most shameful definition of tanking that team sports will ever experience, and that's a banner the Pegulas can proudly hoist pretending next year will be different, when it can't be, because they fostered a team and culture of pathetic future.

Imho.

I disagree completely that it breeds a losing attitude and culture within the team/organization.

The Penguins put no effort to put a competitive product on the ice in 2003-2004, just an example year, Dick Tarnstrom I believe led the team in scoring...and look at them after that. Five years later they won the cup.

Most of these bums on the roster won't be around in 3 years. The coach likely won't be around. So everything about the losing culture of this season will be basically stripped away and shipped off.

It sucks for fans of the product this year as there is really no honest reason to even bother watching the games and there's even less reason to pony up dollars on a ticket...unless you like the opposition who's coming into town or you wanna see guys like Ovie, Crosby, Malkin, Kane, etc play in person.

[mightysimi]

Re: Tanking or trying? Sabres answer

They could have gotten meaningful roster players instead of only picks.

It also didn't stop them from keeping Grigorenko around. I get it though. Keeping those kids out of the show keeps their cap number small when they all put it together. However, if as stated the team is in a rebuild, most teams use that opportunity to play younger less experienced guys so they can get experience without too much pressure on the result of the season.

Again, I don't think they are doing anything wrong but to say at the very least half of it isn't man made is burying your head in the sand.

[gebobs]

Re: Tanking or trying? Sabres answer

However, if as stated the team is in a rebuild, most teams use that opportunity to play younger less experienced guys so they can get experience without too much pressure on the result of the season.

Like Edmonton. For their sake, I hope it starts to pan out. So far, these big picks of theirs haven't produced much as a team even as they put up a lot of points.

[chernobylwraiths]

Re: Tanking or trying? Sabres answer

There's a lot wrong with tanking, it fosters a losing culture and costs people in a city like Buffalo money to subsidize the tanked product. It makes a downtown winter revival with a gem of Harbor Center grimy, and makes loving a team since they were expansion, rancid and filthy.

Drafting even Gretzky in his prime, this team will not win next year, and Pegulas are dirtying what they claimed to be shining up. They are smelling up their own development and embarrassing a City they are claiming to champion with the excuse of cleaning crap off the diamond after burying it in their own crap.

That feeble shot count lost me tonight. It's debatable if they had a few more or didn't, but the NHL should step in, fine them and take away their lottery pick for staging a ridiculous shambles of pretending to play the sport. The NHL won't or can't, but this team will earn the most shameful definition of tanking that team sports will ever experience, and that's a banner the Pegulas can proudly hoist pretending next year will be different, when it can't be, because they fostered a team and culture of pathetic future.

Imho.

I think you go a little far. Lecter and myself have 4 season tickets between us. We don't like the losing anymore than anyone else, but we see a method here. I believe Murray signed and traded for some pretty good character pieces like Gorges and Gionta. No, they weren't brought in to try and get the team to the Stanley Cup, but I'm pretty sure they knew coming in that the team would not be very good but that there would be quite a bit of talent coming in the near future. They weren't going to get the most talented free agents because they would cost plenty and limit them even more in the future. They were already going to be bad because of the derth of talent on the roster, what would another good player to two get them? Maybe 10th in the East? Oh boy, sign me up! On top of that, there was going to be the good chance that they would have a lot of young players playing this year and they needed good leadership. Not players like Brad Richards or even Christian Erhof that aren't going to show the young players how to play and would whine about the losing.

So yes, we all knew they would be bad. We hoped that some of the young players would step up more. Cody Hodgeson is playing horribly and he might just be my new whipping boy because he just doesn't seem to get it. At least Ennis and even Stafford seem to be trying. Ristolenin (sp?) and Zedorov (man it is going to take a while to get the spelling right) are very young and make a lot of rookie mistakes, but they also seem to want to learn and play hard. Reinhart needed not to be in this environment, but add him to the roster with whoever the Sabres get if they end up last and it has the makings of a very good start.

They also have others in the system or juniors or college who show great signs as well. So yes, they might be almost as bad next year with younger players. But as long as they keep the right veterans with them, they would be well on their way next year to contend for the playoffs and beyond.

Now they just will need a solid goaltender. Hey Ryan Miller only signed for 3 years in Vancouver ...

[chernobylwraiths]

Re: Tanking or trying? Sabres answer

They could have gotten meaningful roster players instead of only picks.

It also didn't stop them from keeping Grigorenko around. I get it though. Keeping those kids out of the show keeps their cap number small when they all put it together. However, if as stated the team is in a rebuild, most teams use that opportunity to play younger less experienced guys so they can get experience without too much pressure on the result of the season.

Again, I don't think they are doing anything wrong but to say at the very least half of it isn't man made is burying your head in the sand.

they have some younger inexperienced guys playing. You can't build a roster of young inexperienced guys. Plus, they have to actually get to the cap floor too, so you can't just have that many players without incurring penalties from the NHL. Unless you thing would should be playing more rookies and signing Gionta and Moulson to 9 mil a year contracts each.

[chernobylwraiths]

Re: Tanking or trying? Sabres answer

Like Edmonton. For their sake, I hope it starts to pan out. So far, these big picks of theirs haven't produced much as a team even as they put up a lot of points.

Well, they went all in on offense without a much of a thought to defense or goaltending.

Sabres have depth at defense without much in offense or goaltending. The frightening part is much of that "talent" was picked by Regier.

[JATMtheJATM]

Re: Tanking or trying? Sabres answer

The difference being is that Edmonton is playing their draft picks. How many of the top prospects the Sabres have are even in the NHL? They could be learning on the fly right now.

And we've seen that backfire so many times in the Nhl. You don't rush prospects.

[Mace]

Re: Tanking or trying? Sabres answer

I disagree completely that it breeds a losing attitude and culture within the team/organization.

The Penguins put no effort to put a competitive product on the ice in 2003-2004, just an example year, Dick Tarnstrom I believe led the team in scoring...and look at them after that. Five years later they won the cup.

Most of these bums on the roster won't be around in 3 years. The coach likely won't be around. So everything about the losing culture of this season will be basically stripped away and shipped off.

It sucks for fans of the product this year as there is really no honest reason to even bother watching the games and there's even less reason to pony up dollars on a ticket...unless you like the opposition who's coming into town or you wanna see guys like Ovie, Crosby, Malkin, Kane, etc play in person.

I hope you're right.

The big diff to me is that this team is not composed of casual discards.

Ennis, Foligno, Girgensons, Hodgson, Ristolainen, Zadorov, even Myers, Deslauriers, are all, or should be future core players and bright prospects. What culture does this put into them ? What does this show Grigorenko, Armia, Larsson, Reinhart and Pysyk, none of them are over 26

Compare that Pittsburgh team with the Sabres, do you think we'll get near 58 points ? The team is a historical embarrassment to the franchise itself. They can't do anything well or even look promising, they can't even shoot with any devil may care insanity. Even if you believe Nolan was set up to fail, it's not even an honest effort team.

Does a class organization do that to a coach ? Was Pittsburgh doing a downtown revival with gem buildings at the time ? Does a class organization so shamelessly rip off the people it's trying to cater to in the context of creating a marquee environment ? I just don't see that as honest sport or even sound business.

I'll be delighted if the Sabres win a cup in a few years, because I want to see a championship before I die in a major sport, I don't feel bad about that. This will soil it. I have this stupid thing about at least the appearance of integrity. I guess that makes me outdated.

How many of the best teams spent 5 years ruining themselves to get there, and how many just built and embraced capable organizations and yearly hard work ? Woo, we took a shortcut. Sorry, I just don't like it. These past crap seasons gave them enough shots at talent, the organization is filled with it, that just doesn't make what I'm seeing any better than it is, and doesn't make me expect it to magically change with one more player worth of misery.

[Mace]

Re: Tanking or trying? Sabres answer

I think you go a little far. Lecter and myself have 4 season tickets between us. We don't like the losing anymore than anyone else, but we see a method here. I believe Murray signed and traded for some pretty good character pieces like Gorges and Gionta. No, they weren't brought in to try and get the team to the Stanley Cup, but I'm pretty sure they knew coming in that the team would not be very good but that there would be quite a bit of talent coming in the near future. They weren't going to get the most talented free agents because they would cost plenty and limit them even more in the future. They were already going to be bad because of the derth of talent on the roster, what would another good player to two get them? Maybe 10th in the East? Oh boy, sign me up! On top of that, there was going to be the good chance that they would have a lot of young players playing this year and they needed good leadership. Not players like Brad Richards or even Christian Erhof that aren't going to show the young players how to play and would whine about the losing.

So yes, we all knew they would be bad. We hoped that some of the young players would step up more. Cody Hodgeson is playing horribly and he might just be my new whipping boy because he just doesn't seem to get it. At least Ennis and even Stafford seem to be trying. Ristolenin (sp?) and Zedorov (man it is going to take a while to get the spelling right) are very young and make a lot of rookie mistakes, but they also seem to want to learn and play hard. Reinhart needed not to be in this environment, but add him to the roster with whoever the Sabres get if they end up last and it has the makings of a very good start.

They also have others in the system or juniors or college who show great signs as well. So yes, they might be almost as bad next year with younger players. But as long as they keep the right veterans with them, they would be well on their way next year to contend for the playoffs and beyond.

Now they just will need a solid goaltender. Hey Ryan Miller only signed for 3 years in Vancouver ...

I understand what you're saying, and maybe I am going a bit too far but maybe I'm not either, without going Spartacus on the topic.

I don't think it's any more fair to you and Lecter for those 4 season tickets to be based on yet another hopeful maybe, even if you sort of understand how that maybe can be hopeful, and I do too, but you're paying for today, and this. I'm not presuming to tell you how to spend your money and measure how much you simply love the sport, but this product is just not fair to sell on a hopeful maybe. Every team does that every year anyway.

But this is not just a bad team with pieces that shine. They added character pieces yes, but exactly what character have they demonstrated ?

They have a very deep prospect pool, likely the very best, but I can't see how that equates to this level of shameful terrible.

I don't think it is fair to you and Lecter as fans, even if you're good with it maybe working out. I don't think it is fair to me, I can't afford to get tickets but have loved the team through the years, and when I didn't sure always tried to. I don't think it's fair to the sport, or to the people heading downtown to love Harbor Center, believing Buffalo has finally been blessed.

[JATMtheJATM]

Re: Tanking or trying? Sabres answer

I hope you're right.

The big diff to me is that this team is not composed of casual discards.

Ennis, Foligno, Girgensons, Hodgson, Ristolainen, Zadorov, even Myers, Deslauriers, are all, or should be future core players and bright prospects. What culture does this put into them ? What does this show Grigorenko, Armia, Larsson, Reinhart and Pysyk, none of them are over 26

Compare that Pittsburgh team with the Sabres, do you think we'll get near 58 points ? The team is a historical embarrassment to the franchise itself. They can't do anything well or even look promising, they can't even shoot with any devil may care insanity. Even if you believe Nolan was set up to fail, it's not even an honest effort team.

Does a class organization do that to a coach ? Was Pittsburgh doing a downtown revival with gem buildings at the time ? Does a class organization so shamelessly rip off the people it's trying to cater to in the context of creating a marquee environment ? I just don't see that as honest sport or even sound business.

I'll be delighted if the Sabres win a cup in a few years, because I want to see a championship before I die in a major sport, I don't feel bad about that. This will soil it. I have this stupid thing about at least the appearance of integrity. I guess that makes me outdated.

How many of the best teams spent 5 years ruining themselves to get there, and how many just built and embraced capable organizations and yearly hard work ? Woo, we took a shortcut. Sorry, I just don't like it. These past crap seasons gave them enough shots at talent, the organization is filled with it, that just doesn't make what I'm seeing any better than it is, and doesn't make me expect it to magically change with one more player worth of misery.

The list of prospects you list, most are not in the NHL yet. Many will be up full time next year or should be. GMTM has said he plans to field a different team next year and is allowing the youth to grow in juniors or Rochester. You'll see some players who are only here to occupy a roster spot while the kids develop elsewhere stripped away from the roster next year.

Next year won't be pretty, but I think they'll be much more competitive if we get some youth in. Don't expect them to grow over night, but the talent level will be higher and the kids will develop over the course of the season.

GMTM needed to blow it up, and blow it up he did. But it had to be done. And a lot of fans are excited for it. Even those who pay for season tickets. It's an investment at this point.

[gebobs]

Re: Tanking or trying? Sabres answer

Compare that Pittsburgh team with the Sabres, do you think we'll get near 58 points ?

At their current pace, pretty likely.