When you discuss deflatgate with non football fans

[feldspar]

Why? Is it required? Have you read it?

If you want to go around telling everyone what's what, then yeah, it's definitely required to read the report. Otherwise, you're talking out of your ass. If you want to discredit something you haven't read, then you are talking out of you ass.

I've read the majority of the report and skimmed through the rest, since you asked.

Now return the favor...have you read the report?

[ICRockets]

So, by your own standard, it makes no sense to talk to you about this, correct?

Or should I make an attempt to remind you that the equipment manager's email said it was common knowledge around the league, not that he'd "systematically noticed" (whatever that is) under-inflated balls in the games with the Patriots?

We'll see from your reply whether you wish to discuss it, or argue with me, thus rendering the attempt nonsensical...

I'm not "immune to logic and reason" just because I think you're wrong, but I don't think the conversation can really go anywhere if you're going to continue to ignore the fact that McNally and Jastremski texted each other about deflating the balls in the middle of the season.

You seem to want to argue both sides of this, and it's a little baffling what your ultimate point is. In one post you insist that the Patriots aren't lying when they proclaim total innocence. But then you talk about how it's common knowledge around the league that they were deflating the footballs.

If you want to keep talking about this, I'd appreciate it if you stop being coy and tell me exactly what it is you believe happened. What point are you trying to make by harping on Ryan Grigson's role?

[CommissarSpartacus]

If you want to go around telling everyone what's what, then yeah, it's definitely required to read the report.

And yet you haven't read it yourself, have you? But that's okay, I haven't critici2ed anyone for not reading the report.

One doesn't need to read the Bible, the Torah or the Koran from front to back to have an intelligent opinion about religion.

And if you'll notice, no one has caught me in any errors vis a vis what the report says, have they?

You're floundering dude, desperately searching for some sort of avenue of attack and failing miserably.

But if you want to tell us all how I've made crucial mistakes because I haven't subjected myself to 300 odd pages of baloney, then be my guest.

See how well you do.

[coastal]

I keep arguing and people keep arguing with me and I'm winning!

im the northern knight of truth and stfu.

[Famous Amos]

I just read a terrific book by Ken Follett called the Pillars of the Earth. It's about the building of the Kingsbridge Cathedral in the late 1100s and the plot is all about various conspiracies by the rich and powerful to ruin and besmirch the reputations of good hearted people for their own benefit.

Have you read it?

It was a very good book. tried to watch the miniseries but I couldnt get into it. I loved the in depth detail of the architecture of the cathedral and the process of constructing a project that takes a generation or two to complete. I havent read it in a while, but I enjoyed the dynamics of the peasant family. Despite it's length, its a very accessible novel. I am tempted to check out the next book in the series.

[CommissarSpartacus]

I'm not "immune to logic and reason" just because I think you're wrong, but I don't think the conversation can really go anywhere if you're going to continue to ignore the fact that McNally and Jastremski texted each other about deflating the balls in the middle of the season.

Huh? The "deflator" email was sent on May 14, 2014. What other emails are you talking about?

You seem to want to argue both sides of this, and it's a little baffling what your ultimate point is.

My point so far is the accusations against Brady are far from conclusively proved and that it's not Brady's responsibility to prove himself innocent in the face of what so far seems to be a very weak case. Like I said, if an accusation is all that's required to force people to fight for there lives, then we're all in deep trouble.

In one post you insist that the Patriots aren't lying when they proclaim total innocence.

I don't remember insisting any such thing. I'm not God and all-knowing. But I don't have to agree the Pats are lying because others insist they are and I don't have to insist the Pats are totally innocent to make the point they haven't been proved guilty of what they are accused of. For example, they could be guilty of deflating the balls, but only to make sure they are at the legal lower limit, as I have read that Brady in the past has been aggravated by balls delivered by the refs in the range of 16.0 psi.

The fact that before the Colts game, the refs used two gauges with different readings and didn't bother to log the pressures from each gauge shows how cavalierly the league treated the issue.

Plus, to take for granted that McNally could have deflated the balls in the washroom while ignoring the possibility the Colts could have let some air out on their sideline seems utterly biased to me. The Colts were obviously trying to throw off the Pats, so they have motive just as the Pats have motive, and if you ignore it, your agenda is clear.

But then you talk about how it's common knowledge around the league that they were deflating the footballs.

I didn't say that it was common knowledge around the league, I said that's what the Colts equipment manager said in his email to Grigson the week before the game. See, this is why I tear my hair out talking about this to people that should know better. You claim you are not immune to logic and reason. Let's see.

If the EM sends an email to Grigson in the week before the game saying it's common knowledge, how can he claim it's common knowledge around the league when ostensibly, HE JUST LEARNED ABOUT IT? The only way he could do that is if SOMEONE ELSE told him it was common knowledge around the league, but the EM didn't say that. He implied that it was HIS JUDGMENT that it was common knowledge. So, it's more than possible, the EM is lying.nd if it was common knowledge, is it believable that Grigson didn't know anything about it until he read the email? I doubt that as well. So, that's two lies. Now, apparently, Grigson did NOTHING about this information until, conveniently, a Pats ball falls into the hands of the Colts sideline where a Colts employee (who can put his hands on a pin as easy as enyone else), NOT A PLAYER, supposedly says to himself, "This ball is soft". He then reports it to his superior who reports it to Grigson who decides to make a big deal of it during the game, to the point that NFL officials are coming up to the Pats and telling them "Boy, are you guys in big ****ing trouble!". DURING THE GAME. And who was that official? Just a guy who'd worked for the Jets for 20 years.

If you want to keep talking about this, I'd appreciate it if you stop being coy and tell me exactly what it is you believe happened. What point are you trying to make by harping on Ryan Grigson's role?

Excuse me, but insisting I know things for sure (like the haters) when I don't isn't being coy, it's being realistic and objective, but I'll give you a possible scenario if you wish.

In 2006, Brady and Manning go to the rules commitee and petition them to allow the qbs to prepare their own game balls. It goes through with, among other regs, the pressure parameters. If Brady knew at that time he liked the balls softer than that, why didn't he ask the league to adjust them at the same time? It's all in the service of improving qb play, so why not? Probably because he was happy with the lower limit.

Now, through the ensuing years, the refs got increasinly sloppy with filling the balls with air and over-filling them. So, since there was no procedure to appeal to the refs before kickoff to check the pressures, it's possible Brady *****ed to his boys about it and his boys promised to make sure they were at the lower limit when the game started. Tom, in return, did some small favors for his boys in appreciation.

So, through the years it became known around the league that Brady, and maybe Manning and others from the 20 were making sure themselves that the balls were at the lower limit. Common knowledge and no intention to break the rules, just correcting a problem. Everyone knew about it, including Grigson.

So, the big game approaches and Grigson fears that Brady's domination of his team will continue, so he thinks to himself, what can I do to give my team an edge? So, he comes up with this bright idea to sting Brady DURING the game about the ball pressure. Grigson knows that Mike Kensil hates the Pats, so he arranges the sting with him and get's his EM to send him the email the week before the game to establish that he knew NOTHING about this until he read the email.

So, between Grigson, the equipment manager, Kensil and maybe Vincent, they have everyone they need to pull this off.

They know the Deflator will ensure the Pats balls are at the lower limit before they're taken outside, and because of the temp will be below at halftime, so all they need is to get their hands on one ball on the sidelines to start the ball rolling.

Jackson brings the ball over, gives it to the equipment guys, they deflate it further and then Grigson swings into action and the rest is history. Goodell didn't even need to be in the loop, but the last thing he needs is for his own boys to be fingered, so he has to go along with it if he's smart enough to figure it out, and if he isn't, so much the better.


Anyway, when you're considering this, please remember that the NFL is accusing Tom Brady and his boys of being conspirators, so you should have no objections if I suggest that other people could be conspirators as well.

[CommissarSpartacus]

I keep arguing and people keep arguing with me and I'm winning!

im the northern knight of truth and stfu.

Don't be bitter.

[Famous Amos]

Personally, I hadnt given this controversy much thought after the super bowl because I thought it was blown out of proportion. Now that it is in the news and it has been for a few weeks, its hard not to think about it. Add in the rivalry between two AFCE teams and the player at the forefront of the controversy being the guy who has influenced at least two rule changed (QBs allowed to handle the balls before the game starts, and the tuck rule) and he has had a history of crying to the refs when things dont go his way, you're asking a lot of Bills fans not to become engaged in this controversy.

I hate that the suffix -gate keeps getting added to controversies. It seems lazy and unimaginative.

Can we compare this cheating to other sports' cheating controversies? Corked bats in baseball, pine tar on hat brims to doctor baseballs, illegally curved sticks, vaseline on defensive players jerseys in football?

With Brady's cheating, he wasn't directly responsible for the ball deflation, he had underlings do his dirty work for him. It was mostly done behind the scenes. And he didn't admit to it when he was caught. It's not as cut and dry as a pitcher getting caught doctoring baseballs or George Brett's bat being inspected for having pine tar too high up on his baseball bat.

I'm enjoying the schadenfreude, I do think it has been blown out of proportion but I appreciate the league's steadfastness in this to maintain the integrity of the game because if they let this slide, then teams and players will continue to push the envelope and see how much they could get away with. It's a slippery slope.

[Famous Amos]

Brady being a highly visible pro should know that he's under the microscope at all times, being watched by everyone and every move he makes being scrutinized. That comes with fame and fortune. As a result, he should and has been kept to the highest of standards and because hes so talented he shouldnt cheat to gain competitive advantages in the first place. So there should be no surprise that when an athlete as high of caliber as Tom Brady gets busted for cheating, that it becomes a big deal.

On the flipside, nobody cares about marginal players cheating because any competitive advantage gained from however they cheated has much less of an impact on the game as someone who is well known and famous. That doesnt make it right to think that way though. It seems like every year some ass hole triple A talented ball player gets busted for PEDS, gets and accepts his punishment and the collective fan base shrugs and moves on. But when Jason Giambri or Alex Rodriguez gets in trouble for juicing, people notice and have hot takes because those guys made a much greater impact on the game whether its through winning, stats or whatever. Because they juiced during the times they played well then fans feel cheated themselves.

[Famous Amos]

Now, through the ensuing years, the refs got increasinly sloppy with filling the balls with air and over-filling them. So, since there was no procedure to appeal to the refs before kickoff to check the pressures, it's possible Brady *****ed to his boys about it and his boys promised to make sure they were at the lower limit when the game started. Tom, in return, did some small favors for his boys in appreciation.

Shiva, are you inferring that the refs got sloppy over the years and over filled balls or is this a known fact?

[CommissarSpartacus]

It was a very good book. tried to watch the miniseries but I couldnt get into it. I loved the in depth detail of the architecture of the cathedral and the process of constructing a project that takes a generation or two to complete. I havent read it in a while, but I enjoyed the dynamics of the peasant family. Despite it's length, its a very accessible novel. I am tempted to check out the next book in the series.

The point being that the greedy and powerful and envious and hate filled (Goodell, Grigson, Kensil and their toadies) will conspire to **** over the people who are REALLY responsible (Brady, Belichick, Kraft) for the beauty and artistry and majesty and popularity of their product.

It happens over and over again through history...

[CommissarSpartacus]

Shiva, are you inferring that the refs got sloppy over the years and over filled balls or is this a known fact?

I read the story about Brady's reaction to over-filled balls, but I can't remember exactly where because I didn't think it was note-worthy at the time.

But, seeing how sloppy they were with the game in question, it's not hard to believe.

I'm sure they thought it was a non issue and may have even gotten sloppy because they knew the teams were going to adjust them anyway.

[ICRockets]

Huh? The "deflator" email was sent on May 14, 2014. What other emails are you talking about?

There were no emails. They were text messages, and if you had read the report you'd know what I was talking about. So, to answer your previous question, YES it clearly IS important that you read it for us to continue this conversation. Start on page 74 and familiarize yourself with the text messages.

[ICRockets]

In 2006, Brady and Manning go to the rules commitee and petition them to allow the qbs to prepare their own game balls. It goes through with, among other regs, the pressure parameters. If Brady knew at that time he liked the balls softer than that, why didn't he ask the league to adjust them at the same time? It's all in the service of improving qb play, so why not? Probably because he was happy with the lower limit.

Or, maybe it's just science. Wilson says that their footballs are generally inflated to 13 PSI. So a range from 12.5 to 13.5 just makes sense with what the actual ball manufacturer claims to be the ideal weight of their product. Again, if you'd stop trying so hard this conversation would make you look a lot less stupid.

[ICRockets]

So, the big game approaches and Grigson fears that Brady's domination of his team will continue, so he thinks to himself, what can I do to give my team an edge? So, he comes up with this bright idea to sting Brady DURING the game about the ball pressure. Grigson knows that Mike Kensil hates the Pats, so he arranges the sting with him and get's his EM to send him the email the week before the game to establish that he knew NOTHING about this until he read the email.

So, between Grigson, the equipment manager, Kensil and maybe Vincent, they have everyone they need to pull this off.

They know the Deflator will ensure the Pats balls are at the lower limit before they're taken outside, and because of the temp will be below at halftime, so all they need is to get their hands on one ball on the sidelines to start the ball rolling.

Jackson brings the ball over, gives it to the equipment guys, they deflate it further and then Grigson swings into action and the rest is history. Goodell didn't even need to be in the loop, but the last thing he needs is for his own boys to be fingered, so he has to go along with it if he's smart enough to figure it out, and if he isn't, so much the better.


Anyway, when you're considering this, please remember that the NFL is accusing Tom Brady and his boys of being conspirators, so you should have no objections if I suggest that other people could be conspirators as well.

Your conspiracy theory completely ignores the fact that the Wells Report provides pretty strong evidence that the Patriots had been doing this for MUCH LONGER than JUST the AFC Championship Game. That's where your entire argument falls apart, is you keep harping on a single game for a systemic infraction. Again, read the texts. It's blatantly obvious that Jastremski and McNally discuss deflating the balls for the Chicago Bears game, after the Jets game when Brady complained about the balls being heavy.

Specifically, McNally was annoyed by Brady's complaints. So when Jastremski says "I can't wait to give you your needle this week :)" McNally responds "it better come with a pump attached, because the only thing deflating this week is Tom's passer rating."

[Joe Fo Sho]

Specifically, McNally was annoyed by Brady's complaints. So when Jastremski says "I can't wait to give you your needle this week :)" McNally responds "it better come with a pump attached, because the only thing deflating this week is Tom's passer rating."

McNally needed the needle to deflate his weight. He must have one of those stomach wraps that prevents him from eating. He needed the needle and the pump to inflate the wrap to make his stomach smaller. In doing that, he'll lose more weight because he can't eat as much. The Pats equipment guys have a pool going to see who will lose the most amount of weight, everyone was betting on it. Brady didn't bet on McNally and it makes him sick, it's all he can think about. When Tom gets distressed like that, historically his passer rating goes down. That's what McNally was talking about.

Well, either that or he was deflating footballs. Hard saying not knowing.

[CommissarSpartacus]

There were no emails. They were text messages...

Really? THAT'S your complaint?

Well, since you obviously feel the distinction is significant, could you please explain to us all what the difference is?

Thanks...

[CommissarSpartacus]

Or, maybe it's just science. Wilson says that their footballs are generally inflated to 13 PSI. So a range from 12.5 to 13.5 just makes sense with what the actual ball manufacturer claims to be the ideal weight of their product. Again, if you'd stop trying so hard this conversation would make you look a lot less stupid.

The ideal WEIGHT of their product? Huh? Are you sure you understand what pounds per square inch means? It has nothing to do with weight, it's a measurement of pressure. The extra air required to increase the psi by one pound is undetectable by humans. You didn't think an extra psi made the ball a pound heavier, did you?



If so, I'd be careful slinging around the stupid smack if I were you.

[ICRockets]

The ideal WEIGHT of their product?

Really? THAT'S your complaint?

[CommissarSpartacus]

Your conspiracy theory completely ignores the fact that the Wells Report provides pretty strong evidence that the Patriots had been doing this for MUCH LONGER than JUST the AFC Championship Game. That's where your entire argument falls apart, is you keep harping on a single game for a systemic infraction. Again, read the texts. It's blatantly obvious that Jastremski and McNally discuss deflating the balls for the Chicago Bears game, after the Jets game when Brady complained about the balls being heavy.

Specifically, McNally was annoyed by Brady's complaints. So when Jastremski says "I can't wait to give you your needle this week :)" McNally responds "it better come with a pump attached, because the only thing deflating this week is Tom's passer rating."

I already addressed this. Did you not read it? Maybe you were too busy yelling.

I said that at some time in the past Brady was *****ing about the refs being sloppy and over inflating the balls. That's what he means when he says' they're "heavy", and it was the boys who had to make sure they weren't. But no where is it ever implied that Brady directed them to deflate the balls under the limit. Correct?

And the behavior of the refs on game day backs up the charge that the refs were sloppy with the chore, what with no log and two gauges with different readings.

Really dude, you're going completely ****ing overboard, like Lindsey Graham thinking about Monica and Clinton's penis. Remember how Republicans would claim it wasn't the sex, it was the lying? Did you believe them? So, why should I believe you when you're behaving in exactly the same fashion?

This is a mountain in a molehill that has nothing to do with right and wrong and everything to do with jealousy and envy.