I always feel better watching Green Bay after a loss, like the game is still about people who play it well with a plan, executing it with intent in most cases. Even against a team like Seattle. It's just competent, purposeful, responsible football, where most people seem to know what they're doing and no one looks lost.
It really helps that they have a franchise QB, a guy who would have been available with our 1st round pick if it hadn't been traded for JP the year before.
CommissarSpartacus (09-21-2015)
Yup.Originally Posted by Albany,n.y.
Not only that, but their OC was our OC until he was fired by Ralph for not agreeing with Ralph's decision to let Bledsoe walk and start Losman.
Single biggest Bills bungle of the 21st century.
My tebya razdavim
I know you can find bigger bungles than that, like hm....Losman ?
Nope.
Nothing that comes CLOSE to doing the damage that Losmania wreaked. We're still paying for it today...
They showed a commercial for next week's MNF game a little while ago on tonight's broadcast...a Packer fan walks through the section tunnel headed for his seat during a game, they switch to a crowd shot of Packer fans celebrating, and pop the overlay text "Owner's Meeting In Progress". Great bit.
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CommissarSpartacus (09-22-2015),jimmifli (10-04-2015),Mace (09-21-2015)
Not even Trent Edwards/Jauron/Maybin/Brandon ?
Those guys only got their jobs courtesy of the crap that went down over Losman.
The FIRST GUY that was fired in that fiasco was Tom Clements, who went to GB, resurrected Favre's career, created Aaron Rodgers, won a SB and is in line to be GB's next HC whenever McCarthy moves on.
Why was Clements fired? Because he thought Losman was crap and said so.
Ralph disagreed.
Or sitting flutie.
Well, technically Clements left because Mularkey did, new HC's typically bring in their own OC, like Jauron did with Fairchild. Clements went to Green Bay where he had the benefit of Favre & Rodgers, while here he got the most games out of Bledsoe & Holcomb who he didn't do much with, and obviously are not Favre and Rodgers. Not real sure what you mean that he resurrected Favre, Clements didn't even become their OC until 2012, 5 years after Favre was gone from the Pack, and looking at Favre's career stats, the first year of Clements as QB coach in 2006 was the lowest completion pct he posted in his career.
Clements left because Mularkey did. He wasn't even an OC again until 5 years later. The Pack was bad under Sherman. They became better under McCarthy. Not sure what you see out of Rodgers, but I sort of see Clements going along with him and not vice versa.
Why TF does everyone want to argue with me all the time? I have no problem explaining my thinking to people if they ask. I don't know why people are so threatened when they hear a take that doesn't match what they and their buddies have believed for years.
You're a smart guy when you actually think for yourself, rather than cling to conventional wisdom. Do you REALLY think I don't know what I'm talking about here? Didn't we just go through 7 months where I faced down all the Brady and Pats haters even though I KNEW the first thing they'd whine about was I wasn't a "real Bills fan"?
Look, since I like you, I'll explain it to you, but I hope like the majority here, you won't freak out when you hear it and want to fight like most.
1. Technically, Clements left because Mularkey fired him . Mularkey fired him because Ralph told Mularkey he could only keep his job if he fired Clements. Mularkey knuckled under, fired the guy whose work got him the job in the first place, and then a couple of days later in a fit of remorse, changed his mind and resigned. And why did he feel remorse? Because he knew Clements had been correct about Losman, he knew that Clements work at Pittsburgh as QB coach had made him look like HC material and he knew he'd stabbed Clements in the back by firing him when it was really Ralph's interference in the process that had screwed things up. Ralph could never help himself from interfering. He had no problem hiring people because they were supposedly experts in their field and then telling them what to do.
In other words, it had nothing to do with HCs bringing in their OCs. Marv, Jauron and Fairchild came on the scene AFTER all this went down.
2. Clements was then hired by GB as qb coach, but to say he "had the benefit" of Favre and Aaron Rodgers is flippant and wrong. The REASON GB hired him was that Favre had just gone through the WORST season of his career and most people were either predicting his retirement or calling for it. Go ahead, look it up. And Rodgers had just spent his rookie season on the bench, having gotten on the field ling enough to throw 16 whole passes for a QB rating of 58. So it was hardly a situation where anyone could succeed and most likely, a situation where if he couldn't turn it around, he might not get another job.
So, what happened? He worked with Favre, and after about 6 games, Bret started to get it back and came back so far, he had two of the best seasons of his career. And in the meantime, Clements was working with Rodgers, who only started after 3 years on the bench and 2 years of tutoring by Clements. The rest is history. Remember, until Rodgers stated to play, he was mostly known as the guy drafted AFTER Alex Smith and NO ONE knew whether he'd make it as an NFL qb. Now people are saying he's ONE OF THE BEST EVER, and could be THE BEST after his whole career plays out. And what does Aasron Rodgers think of Tom Clements? Google it, you'll find out.
3. Claiming that "he didn't do much with Bledsoe or Holcomb" is absurd. With Bledsoe, he did everything he could, and with the team at 9 -6, after starting 0 - 4, and only needing a win against the Steelers back ups, Bledsoe had the win in his hands, and in true Bledsoe fashion, choked it away. Don't forget, Bledsoe wasn't Clements boy and a leopard can't change it's spots, but he helped Bledsoe play waaaay better than he had in years. Bledsoe's rep was so bad, the hoodie traded him gladly. As for Holcomb, he was the 9th rated QB in the league going into the final game of the year. If you don't believe me, you can check yourself. he only fell out after the last game, which he had won until special teams let the Jets run a kick off back for a td, and threw 4 picks, none of which were his fault. That was one of the reasons Ralph wanted to fire Clements - the fact he made Holcomb look good but couldn't make Losman look good. Now we know that NO ONE could make Losman look good, but at the time the Losmaniacs were SCREAMING for Clements head because he'd "failed" with the boy they loved so much.
4. Clements didn't get the OC title until 2012 because he was so valuable as a qb coach and McCarthy had always called all his plays anyway. Look, I don't know if you've run across this system in business, but the situation happens all the time where someone is SO GOOD at what they do, the won't get promoted because they know they'll never find someone as good to fill the position. But GB isn't stupid, and while others have gone, Clements is still at GB with Aaron Rodgers, he's still the highest paid non head coach in the league and he knows the HC gig is his if McCarthy ever leaves.
5. Clements resume before he arrived in Buffalo included turning Elvis Grbac into a pro bowler, turning Kordell Stewart into a Pro Bowler and making Tommy Maddox the comeback player of the year. The argument can certainly be made he's the greatest qb guru in NFL history.
So, let me ask you this - In a league with 8 - 10 competent players at the games most important position, wouldn't YOU think that the greatest qb coach in history would be a valuable piece to have around? Wouldn't you do what it takes to make him happy? Wouldn't you listen to his opinions about who's fgood and who isn't?
I know I ****ing would.
But he was driven out of town on a rail BY THE ****ING ASS HOLE LOSMANIACS.
Now, if you want to continue to argue with me, just consider this.
Who would you rather listen to regarding how valuable Tom Clements is?
Aaron Rodgers, Mike McCarty and Ron Wolf or a bunch of butt-hurt Losmaniacs?
I know who I`d listen to.
Last edited by CommissarSpartacus; 09-23-2015 at 05:44 AM.
Well, see, no offense, but I don't just take your word for anything, like you wouldn't just take mine. And honestly, I don't want to argue with you all the time, sometimes I agree with you. In fact, I mostly avoid it because you have more passion for your arguments most often than I do for mine, I say what I mean to, if satisfied with how I said it, I lose interest in convincing anyone who won't be convinced. But in this case I just don't agree with your opinions, sorry if you don't like it.
- I never heard that before, don't know where you did. I do know Mularkey took playcalling away from Clements 2nd year, never heard anyone told him to. Looked it up, can't find it. Have a link ? What do you think made him a good OC here ? Bills were 27th and 29th in passing when he was here. Is that what a QB whisperer does ?Mularkey fired him because Ralph told Mularkey he could only keep his job if he fired Clements.
- No way. Green Bay was doing terrible under Sherman, and his OC Tom Rossley who you never heard of again. Favre still had the worst comp pct of his career his first with Clements as his QB coach, and I'd say the success had more to do with the OC's that followed, Jagodzinski then Philbin. Favre and Rodgers probably made Clements more then Clements made them, it took him 5 years to get back to OC even ? Kind of real strange to say Clements "saved Favre" & "made Rodgers". That was a dream situation for him landing there.Clements was then hired by GB as qb coach, but to say he "had the benefit" of Favre and Aaron Rodgers is flippant and wrong.
- No, it's just not. Bledsoe had a big issue with being a statue behind a bad o-line, Holcomb just was not good. Bledsoe had the same issue behind a bad o-line, and Holcomb remained not good, neither of which had anything to do with Clements.3. Claiming that "he didn't do much with Bledsoe or Holcomb" is absurd
- Nah. No idea where you get this either besides your own opinion. Clements wasn't OC because he was behind better OC's until they left and wasn't good enough to advance until then. That's also a rule of business, you don't advance until you're the best candidate to advance.4. Clements didn't get the OC title until 2012 because he was so valuable as a qb coach
- No idea why you think Clements is so much "The Man". Those OC's made those guys.5. Clements resume before he arrived in Buffalo included turning Elvis Grbac into a pro bowler, turning Kordell Stewart into a Pro Bowler and making Tommy Maddox the comeback player of the year. The argument can certainly be made he's the greatest qb guru in NFL history
Let me ask you this instead. If Clements is all that, why is he not so hotly chased for HC openings by fresh QB teams ? Why wasn't he chased for OC jobs being so good with QB's in the 5 years it took for him to get there in Green Bay ?
Answer might be because you're in the minority in thinking he's all that and more.
feldspar (09-24-2015)
If you don't know about this, then I doubt you know anything more than the average Losmaniac about the situation.
If you're interested to know what REALLY happened, I'll be happy to tell you, but I'm not gonna do it if all you want to do is argue.
If you want confirmation that I took on ALL of Losmania over the issue, you can ask Sal Cappaccio if you want, we discussed it extensively over the year. Of course, most of it was discussed over at the range and is now gone.
But here, I'll tell you something else you probably don;t know that Coach Sal told us about the final game of the 2004 season.
Sal, who was living in Florida at the time, trying to break into radio, posted that he'd been asked to come and wrangle head set wires for the Steelers during the game.
He said he was standing next to Ben Rothlisberger on the sideline when Losman came out of the tunnel before the game, when Ben turns to a friend, points out JP and says "JP Losman - what a dick!" That's quite a condemnation from someone who's a pretty large dick himself.
Anyway, after Bledsoe chokes the game and a playoff spot away, Sal, through a friend gets invited into the Bills locker room where Mularkey invites him and the friend to his house for an after game party.
Sal goes, and after a few pops, Mularkey comes over to Sal and tells him it won't be announced until February, but Ralph and Donohoe and Mularkey have decided not to bring Bledsoe back, but to let him go and make Losman the starter in 2015.
And sure enough, when february rolls around, they offer Bledsoe a 50% cut on a new contract, knowing he'll turn it down, which he did.
The disaster was in motion.
As for the rest, you're both wrong and ignorant.
Don't mean that in an insulting way, but it's the truth.
BTW, GB is now 3 - 0 and Rodgers, who was coached up by Clements for 2 years bedore he ever stepped on the field, looks to be going for another league MVP.
But you were a Losmaniac, right?
Look at Tom Clements' list of success stories.
You've really got to suck as a QB if he can't help you.
He got Elvis Grbac, Kordell Stewart, and Tommy Maddox to the pro bowl. That's King Midas level brilliance turning anything into gold.
No to mention his obvious brilliant tandem with Aaron Rodgers.
Disclaimer: The sentiment expressed in this post is strictly for entertainment purposes only.
CommissarSpartacus (10-03-2015),jimmifli (10-04-2015)
http://www.footballnation.com/conten...the-nfl/20557/
...
Tom Clements has managed to get the best out of a lot of different quarterbacks. Whether the players had talent or not, they all had their best year under the tutelage of Clements.
Lesser known players Tommy Maddox, Kordell Stewart, Kelly Holcomb, Elvis Grbac and Matt Flynn all had some of their best games/years with Clements.
The two most famous quarterbacks to have Clements as their quarterback coach was former Packer, Brett Farve, and current quarterback for the Packers, Aaron Rodgers.
In 2005, Brett Favre had just finished the year with 29 interceptions and with Clements help it was brought down to 18 the next year. During Brett Favre's last season with Green Bay, the quarterback posted a then career best completion percentage and quarterback rating of 95.7.
When USA TODAY asked Brett Favre if he would hire Tom Clements to coach a football team he said, "I would hire him in a second."
Let's look at how much of an impact Clements has had on Aaron Rodgers.
A whopping 17,037 -- that's how many passing yards Rodgers has had from 2008-11 and it is the most by a quarterback in his first four seasons. Aaron Rodgers became the first quarterback to have two seasons with 500-plus attempts and seven or fewer interceptions.
That's not all. Aaron Rodgers is the only quarterback to throw 4,000 yards with six or fewer interceptions. Last but not least, Rodgers ranks No. 1 in NFL history with a career interception percentage of 1.8.
All of these records were accomplished with Tom Clements as his quarterback coach and here are some of the things Rodgers had to say about Clements from USA TODAY.
Rodgers: "I have an incredible quarterback coach. Tom Clements is a guy I pray I get to work with my entire career because he's an incredible teacher of the game, he understands how to coach quarterbacks. He played quarterback in the CFL for 13 years. Him and I just really have a good connection. He knows how to push my buttons and get the most out of me and he never lets me be complacent."
That's not all.
Rodgers: "Tom understands the position and knows how to coach it." He added, "I think his best quality is his game-day style. I've been around different coaches and he is very calm on game day and very simple. Because he is so simple and calm, he doesn't get you rattled."
...more...
GB is now 4 - 0 and it was interesting to see OC and Associate Head Coach, Tom Clements, beside McCarthy on the sideline...
...and Aaron Rodgers, and Clements not being head coach of another team. Not like Philbin, Pettine, Bowles, Quinn, O'Brien, Jim Thomsula, recycled Reid, Del Rio and Fox, Ron Rivera were chosen ahead of him. Not like other OC's (too many to list) haven't had more interviews, not like the rest of the NFL personnel executives can measure football genius as only you can.
Just thought I'd mention it.
Clements is going nowhere, he has cozy parents in Rodgers and McCarthy and knows better. It's just how it is, shame if it disrupts your view but it is what it is.
Of course you did. You're still trying to justify your Losmania.
Not everyone is willing to gamble away a great position with a consistent winner for a head coaching job with consistent losers.
Clements, not a stupid guy, learned his lesson in Buffalo, where he suffered his only failure in his football and business career.
That lesson was "you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas."
All the guys you mentioned (Philbin, Pettine, Bowles, Quinn, O'Brien, Jim Thomsula, recycled Reid, Del Rio and Fox, Ron Rivera) have had their reputations ruined taking on positions with crappy teams and stupid owners. Why should he waste his time?
Green Bay knows how valuable he is, which is why they've turned down ALL requests to interview Clements that they could over the years and have done everything they can to keep him happy and make sure he stays.
So, when February and the SB rolls around and its McCarthy Clements Rogers against Belichick McDaniels Brady and Philbin, Pettine, Bowles, Quinn, O'Brien, Jim Thomsula, recycled Reid, Del, Fox and Ron Rivera have all gone home, you can sit in front of the TV, look back at your man crush on JP Losman and figure out some more BS reasons to slag a guy we lost because he had the balls to tell Ralph and Donahoe that Losman was NO ****ING GOOD.
Last edited by CommissarSpartacus; 10-06-2015 at 02:56 AM.
Excellent article on the subject...
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2...ackers-offense
Why Tom Clements Will Be a Successful Play-Caller for Packers Offense
By Michelle Bruton , Featured Columnist Feb 13, 2015
In a press conference given on Thursday, Green Bay Packers head coach Mike McCarthy announced that, among other coaching staff changes, he was ceding play-calling duties to Tom Clements, who was promoted from offensive coordinator to associate head coach (offense).
McCarthy said that he would be splitting his time equally now between offense, defense and special teams, something he wasn't able to do with play-calling responsibilities.
"I felt that the play-calling was something that I could still be able to do, but the commitment you have to make Monday through Saturday, I didn't think it fit," McCarthy said. "I didn't think it would work as good as I know it will work now with Tom, who's basically taking the responsibilities on offense that I've had in the past."
In early February, I explored how McCarthy giving up play-calling responsibilities could benefit Green Bay's offense as a whole. There are multiple facets of game management that a head coach simply can't follow in-game when he's calling plays, in addition to the time during the week (as McCarthy noted in his presser) taken away from other aspects of game-planning.
...and...
Clements hasn't called plays since he was the offensive coordinator of the Buffalo Bills in the 2004 and 2005 seasons. Prior to Clements' arrival in Buffalo in 2004, the Bills hadn't had a winning season since 1999.
In Clements' first season calling plays and quarterback Drew Bledsoe's final one with Buffalo, however, the Bills improved to 9-7 and just barely missed the playoffs. In fact, according to Football Outsiders, the 2004 Bills are the highest-rated team by DVOA ever to miss the playoffs.
Buffalo went 0-4 to start its 2004 campaign but lost three of its first four games by three points or less. But then, as Aaron Schatz notes in his Football Outsiders piece, the Bills won six straight games by 30 points or more. Bledsoe threw 20 touchdowns that season, the fifth-most of his 14-season career.
It was the only season in which the Bills would have a winning record throughout the 2000s.
...and...
When he was hired by the Green Bay Packers on January 29, 2006, Clements entered at a pivotal moment in Packers history. As quarterbacks coach, he at once was able to begin working with future Packers Hall of Famer Brett Favre while simultaneously developing 2005 first-round draft pick Aaron Rodgers.
After reducing his interceptions from 29 (a career high) to just 18 in his first year working with Clements, Favre's 2007 season was one of the best of his career. He posted his second-highest completion percentage ever (66.5) and threw for the fourth-most yards in any season (4,155).
He also averaged 7.8 yards per attempt, the second-most of his career. His interception percentage dropped to 2.8, the lowest it had been since 2000.
Moreover, Clements was able to help Favre reach those kinds of numbers without necessarily requiring him to give up his gunslinging ways. In fact, Favre had 49 passes of 20-plus yards and 16 of 40-plus in 2007, the latter being the most in any season of his career.
...and...
ith Clements behind him every step of the way, Rodgers became the only quarterback in NFL history to have a passer rating of 100.0 or higher for six consecutive seasons, per Packers.com.
More on Clements' offensive accomplishments from the team's site:
In [Clements'] nine seasons with the team, the Packers have finished in the top 10 in the NFL in total offense eight times and in the top 10 in scoring eight times. Clements has helped the Green Bay offense record the three highest single-season point totals in franchise history: 560 in 2011, 486 in 2014 and 461 in 2009.
...more...
Think it speaks for itself across the board. At 62 his career upside is done. You can blame anyone you want or imagine whatever conspiracy you choose, but he found his comfy safe in the arms of McCarthy & Rodgers, and all the rest of the teams weren't hurrying to snatch him up, so, it is what it is.
Took him 5 years in line to get to OC, and he went no farther. No one else hired him to HC, or even OC while he was a lower assistant. Nothing much more I can say. Can't explain your obsession with him like Losman, but you have a right to have a crush on anyone you want.
Past that, I lost interest. I don't particularly not like Clements, but I just can't agree with your glorified view of him, so it's argument for the sake of argument, and lately I'm losing interest in that too for some reason.
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