Cam Newton is the anti-Don Beebe

[Bill Cody]

Not diving for that ball was inexcusable. And he was a baby at the presser. But I think it's also dumb to pick out the worst play of someone's career and post it up against someone's best and make that the comparison. Newton has to learn from this experience. He F'd up. Now he has to own it and move on. Will he? Not sure. But even if he is just a self absorbed coward I'd take him over Tie Rod. Just my take.

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I wish Cam Newton was a Bill. Period.

I had a loaner car yesterday. Car was in the shop for a couple of hours. I turn on the radio and the 80's station from satellite radio pops on playing "One Thing Leads to Another"

I laughed and laughed.

[sukie]

I had a loaner car yesterday. Car was in the shop for a couple of hours. I turn on the radio and the 80's station from satellite radio pops on playing "One Thing Leads to Another"

I laughed and laughed.

They are still around.

[DynaPaul]

For sure.

Cam had to know that not recovering that fumble was the end of it all.

He said he didn't want to injure his leg because at the time he would've had to bend "awkwardly" or something like that

Dude, the season is all but over at that point, what little chance your team had went away when you *****ed out. Besides you've been diving head first all season long at defenders on your punishing runs. All of a sudden you are scared of getting hurt ? ... Nah bro you had checked out well before that and were just mailing it in.

He actually would have gotten props if he'd took the risk to get that ball. It would make him look like a fighter.

[Dozerdog]

Don Beebe was a career underachiever who is remembered for one play, made when his team was down by 5 TD;s.


but what the hell...let's define him by catching a 300 lb DT from behind.

Played in 6 Super Bowls over a 7 year period- 4 TDs in one game (Bills record), Had that catch that began the Oilers comeback- I wished I underachieved like that.

It's all perspective- Had the Bills NOT had two HoF WRs ahead of him on the depth chart, and a HoF RB as another Bills offensive option - his numbers might have been a lot better.

But then again, he was a tiny guy and the added pounding his body would have taken may have shortened his career if he was getting the majority of the touches his way. He was the perfect compliment to the rest of that team- and to Green Bay's team as well.

[Dozerdog]

Now if you want to go back and dig up immense underachievers- I'll give you a name- Cookie Gilchrist

That guy dominated his league- and to only put together 2 great seasons- because his head/big mouth/attitude got in the way of his immense talent.

He should have been The AFL's Jim Brown- and mentioned in the same circles- but he blew it. Almost cost the Bills the 1965 championship season because he was such a big baby. And this comes from a guy who truly was a fan of what he did.

Beebe gets accolades for not giving up on any play- even a blowout. Cookie gave up on his team mid season and had it not been for Jack Kemp talking the guy off the ledge, we would be discussing him as one of the biggest quitters of all time.

[swiper]

[cookie G]

Played in 6 Super Bowls over a 7 year period-

Way to give him credit for other people's accomplishments.

In his 4 SB seasons with the Bills, the fastest Bill ever was never more than the 4th or 5th in reception yards.

4 TDs in one game (Bills record),

And what did he do with the rest of his career....the guy who ran a 4.2 40 never had more than 6 in a season.

If anything, that should show you what he was capable of doing. He just...didn't....did he?

Had that catch that began the Oilers comeback

mmhmmm..the one where he stepped out of bounds...but that part is irrelevant. The 4th round draft choice from Kutztown St. Tech A & M Teacher's College, the one who Beebe could beat in a race running backward...had 3 in that game.

I wished I underachieved like that.

I wish I had 4.2 speed. So does just about every WR trying out for the NFL.

Only a few ever did.

Many of those are in the HOF.

There were also some busts.

It's all perspective- Had the Bills NOT had two HoF WRs ahead of him on the depth chart, and a HoF RB as another Bills offensive option - his numbers might have been a lot better.

After the great James Lofton retired, he had 2 seasons where the no. 2 WR position was his. He produced about 500 yards per season...be still my heart. The numbers for the fast player in Bills' history were actually worse than Billy Brooks.

But then again, he was a tiny guy and the added pounding his body would have taken may have shortened his career if he was getting the majority of the touches his way. He was the perfect compliment to the rest of that team- and to Green Bay's team as well.

More of the "don't pick on him, he's just a little guy" routine. I'll give you credit, at least you didn't call him Rudy. (I still chuckle at that reference.

To add to the previous list...

he was an inch shorter and 10 lbs. less than Tim Brown.
He was about the same size as TT, who took a hell of a lot more hits in his career.

Who's fault was it that he didn't put on 10-20 lbs. through a conditioning program? Not mine.

Plenty of other players of similar stature..and far less speed, had excellent careers in the NFL.

He was blessed with immense God given speed...and lived only on that God given talent to have a less than average NFL career.

That's pretty much what an underachiever is.

[cookie G]

Now if you want to go back and dig up immense underachievers- I'll give you a name- Cookie Gilchrist

That guy dominated his league- and to only put together 2 great seasons- because his head/big mouth/attitude got in the way of his immense talent.

He should have been The AFL's Jim Brown- and mentioned in the same circles- but he blew it. Almost cost the Bills the 1965 championship season because he was such a big baby. And this comes from a guy who truly was a fan of what he did.

Beebe gets accolades for not giving up on any play- even a blowout. Cookie gave up on his team mid season and had it not been for Jack Kemp talking the guy off the ledge, we would be discussing him as one of the biggest quitters of all time.

uh huh
uh huh
uh huh

On his 3 years with the Bills, he was (by far) the leading rusher on a team that finished either 1st or 2nd in AFL in rushing.

And as an added bonus, he'd normally produce around 300 yards in receptions, or a little less than the faster Bill ever.

As to quitting on his team in 1965, that's tough to do when you aren't on the team (he was traded after the 1964 season.)

But if you're referring to 1964, he quit on his team so badly that in the 1964 championship game, he gained over 120 yards, with more than a 7.5 ypc.

Of course, he didn't get the opportunity to run down Ernie Ladd on an interception return..but don't hold that against him.

Luckily for the Bills, he wasn't the 4th or 5th leading rusher in those years.

[swiper]

This is a very odd stance coming from cookie. Beebe was never predicted to be a world beater. Just because you're fast doesn't mean you're good. Beebe was unquestionably an over-achiever for his NFL career. And when you look at his career as a Bill, you are being very short-sighted by only looking at his WR statistics. He was the ultimate at having intangibles to round out a cast of superstars on special teams as well as offense.

[Victor7]

This is a very odd stance coming from cookie. Beebee was never predicted to be a world beater. Just because you're fast doesn't mean your good. Beebe was unquestionably an over-achiever for his NFL career.

Agreed. That's why I told him Al Davis would tell him about it, but he's gone. Speed alone isn't worth ****. Just ask Marquis Goodwin.

I still don't understand how this turned into a piss on Don Beebe thread.

[Dozerdog]

uh huh
uh huh
uh huh

On his 3 years with the Bills, he was (by far) the leading rusher on a team that finished either 1st or 2nd in AFL in rushing.

And as an added bonus, he'd normally produce around 300 yards in receptions, or a little less than the faster Bill ever.

As to quitting on his team in 1965, that's tough to do when you aren't on the team (he was traded after the 1964 season.)

But if you're referring to 1964, he quit on his team so badly that in the 1964 championship game, he gained over 120 yards, with more than a 7.5 ypc.

Of course, he didn't get the opportunity to run down Ernie Ladd on an interception return..but don't hold that against him.

Luckily for the Bills, he wasn't the 4th or 5th leading rusher in those years.

Yet he still was a quitter..... BOOM!

[cookie G]

This is a very odd stance coming from cookie. Beebe was never predicted to be a world beater. Just because you're fast doesn't mean you're good. Beebe was unquestionably an over-achiever for his NFL career. And when you look at his career as a Bill, you are being very short-sighted by only looking at his WR statistics. He was the ultimate at having intangibles to round out a cast of superstars on special teams as well as offense.

Oh, I don't think its that odd.

I'd feel the same way if TJ Graham ran down a DT in a game. (Well, Beebe was a hell of a lot faster than Graham).

And you're absolutely right, it takes more than just great speed to be a WR.

But speed and height are about the only 2 things that can't be improved.

Strength, agility, hands, route running, ball skills, knowledge of the game, all can be improved with effort.

Damn, that era had a Bills HOF WR who MADE himself a HOF WR. Andre Reed's work ethic is legendary.

He wasn't born strong, he made himself strong in the gym.
He wasn't born with good hands, he developed good hands
Hell, the guy didn't start to play WR until he was in college.

So when I hear these lame excuses for Don Beebe, I just kinda grin and say.."uh huh."

I see it as he was born under a lucky star...twice

Through nothing but dumb luck, he was blessed with world class speed

AND

he was drafted by a SB contender.

What he made out of that is totally up to him.

I know, I'm treading on hero worship, because in one play, he's become the epitome of "effort". I've always realized that.

I just don't see it. Never have.

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Yet he still was a quitter..... BOOM!

oooo...is this the part where I come back with something like, "So's your mother!"?

[Frenchman]

Hopefully Cam will mature and really will not be such a cry baby for his team and his sake.

[Dr. Lecter]

I would argue that speed can be improved, to a point. And things like agility can only be improved so much and adding strength can decrease speed and agility.

I just don't consider Beebe to be an underachiever. He was a guy. On a team

He wasn't an all time great, but was never supposed to be

[sahlensguy]

Not convinced.

[pmoon6]

adding strength can decrease speed and agility.

A popular misconception. It can if you let it. If your training program is varied that is not necessarily the case. Flexibility training and power training will keep you at least the same in those areas. If your leg muscles get stronger they can push more weight over time, so it follows that your speed won't diminish.

[pmoon6]

Oh, I don't think its that odd.

I'd feel the same way if TJ Graham ran down a DT in a game. (Well, Beebe was a hell of a lot faster than Graham).

And you're absolutely right, it takes more than just great speed to be a WR.

But speed and height are about the only 2 things that can't be improved.

Strength, agility, hands, route running, ball skills, knowledge of the game, all can be improved with effort.

Damn, that era had a Bills HOF WR who MADE himself a HOF WR. Andre Reed's work ethic is legendary.

He wasn't born strong, he made himself strong in the gym.
He wasn't born with good hands, he developed good hands
Hell, the guy didn't start to play WR until he was in college.

So when I hear these lame excuses for Don Beebe, I just kinda grin and say.."uh huh."

I see it as he was born under a lucky star...twice

Through nothing but dumb luck, he was blessed with world class speed

AND

he was drafted by a SB contender.

What he made out of that is totally up to him.

I know, I'm treading on hero worship, because in one play, he's become the epitome of "effort". I've always realized that.

I just don't see it. Never have.

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oooo...is this the part where I come back with something like, "So's your mother!"?

Cookie G also hated Jason Sehorn.

Those white boys don't belong playing corner or receiver.

[WagonCircler]

I would argue that speed can be improved, to a point.

Only in very small increments.