Will Cardale Jones Outperform EJ Manual In Training Camp?

[swiper]

I don't know about that. I think Whaley has done a very good job as GM so far getting the best QBs that realistically were available to be had. It's not like there was a wealth of them. He nabbed Kyle Orton, who turned around and retired, and then Tyrod Taylor. Of course that's not ideal, but I don't know who else he realistically could have gotten that would do too much better.

I'll give you all that. Certainly the colleges aren't putting them out like that. Would you have preferred Paxton Lynch, Ragland, Washington as the top 3 picks over what we got? IDK the answer. But Lynch was closer to the Roethlisberger mold (albeit much more raw). So it was a matter of Whaley weighing the need at QB vs that at DE. He made his choice. To me it just shows that he doesn't really place the importance in having an eventual franchise QB. Not saying he made the wrong choice. Lawson has a very good chance of being a star and Lynch has a very good chance of being a bust. But I get your point.

Even the EJ pick wasn't that bad if you consider the Bills set out deliberately to get the best QB in the draft...they very well might have done just that. I know that's not saying much, but the fact remains. At least they traded down. Whaley wasn't the GM then either, but for the sake of argument, we'll call EJ his pick. The idea was never to start EJ right away in the first place. The idea was to develop him behind Kolb, if you remember. Then Kolb got hurt.

Give you that too. The failed experiments with Kolb, Orton and Cassel hurt. Yes Whaley made effort, but it was weak and too little too late.

We'll see what happens this year with Tyrod Taylor, but QBs don't exactly grow on trees, which is kinda the point.

Btw, I'm not a fan of the Jones pick at all either.

Again, agree. Taylor was somewhat of a bright spot, but defenses seemed to have figured him out by the end of the season. So that doesn't bode well for this year. Even the fans were noticing some of his glaring tendencies like not throwing over the middle, etc. So we'll see. I would just like to see Whaley keep trying. Don't stop with the drafting of Jones.

[mdcas22]

EJ shined last season playing vs the camp fodder of other teams so a repeat performance might be in the books. Also Cardale JOnes sucks. Yes even more than EJ so fancy that one. Its the toilet Bowl of back up QB's. **** salad or **** sandwich.

We better pray to whatever god you want that Taylor doesn't get hurt because damn we suck after him.

as bad as he sucks he has never lost a game as a starter..

[Arm of Harm]

I don't know about that. I think Whaley has done a very good job as GM so far getting the best QBs that realistically were available to be had. It's not like there was a wealth of them. He nabbed Kyle Orton, who turned around and retired, and then Tyrod Taylor. Of course that's not ideal, but I don't know who else he realistically could have gotten that would do too much better.

Even the EJ pick wasn't that bad if you consider the Bills set out deliberately to get the best QB in the draft...they very well might have done just that. I know that's not saying much, but the fact remains. At least they traded down. Whaley wasn't the GM then either, but for the sake of argument, we'll call EJ his pick. The idea was never to start EJ right away in the first place. The idea was to develop him behind Kolb, if you remember. Then Kolb got hurt.

We'll see what happens this year with Tyrod Taylor, but QBs don't exactly grow on trees, which is kinda the point.

Btw, I'm not a fan of the Jones pick at all either.

EJ was that bad of a pick! He'd done nothing in college to suggest he was worthy of being picked in the third round, let alone the first round. If a GM puts a first round grade on Manuel, he deserves to be fired. If a GM puts a fourth round grade on Manuel, but takes him in the first round anyway, then that GM also deserves to be fired.

EJ Manuel is the kind of quarterback who separates GMs that can evaluate QB talent from those who can't. He fit the mold for a prototypical first round QB bust: great physical tools, GMs drooling over his "upside," limited accuracy, slow information processing speed. The NFL is littered with first round QB busts just like that.

I agree that the original plan had been for Manuel to sit on the bench while Kolb started. Kolb's injury came as a surprise. However, Manuel has not shown he can benefit from development time. He was neither better nor worse in 2015 than he'd been as a rookie. He was the same guy he's always been, both with the Bills and in college. The outcome for his career would have been the same, regardless of how much or how little time he'd been given to sit and learn on the bench.

[Skooby]

EJ was that bad of a pick! He'd done nothing in college to suggest he was worthy of being picked in the third round, let alone the first round. If a GM puts a first round grade on Manuel, he deserves to be fired. If a GM puts a fourth round grade on Manuel, but takes him in the first round anyway, then that GM also deserves to be fired.

EJ Manuel is the kind of quarterback who separates GMs that can evaluate QB talent from those who can't. He fit the mold for a prototypical first round QB bust: great physical tools, GMs drooling over his "upside," limited accuracy, slow information processing speed. The NFL is littered with first round QB busts just like that.

I agree that the original plan had been for Manuel to sit on the bench while Kolb started. Kolb's injury came as a surprise. However, Manuel has not shown he can benefit from development time. He was neither better nor worse in 2015 than he'd been as a rookie. He was the same guy he's always been, both with the Bills and in college. The outcome for his career would have been the same, regardless of how much or how little time he'd been given to sit and learn on the bench.

How many Jerseys of his do you own ? 0 ?? He's a bad back-up and will never start in the NFL, it's over.

[WagonCircler]

How many Jerseys of his do you own ? 0 ?? He's a bad back-up and will never start in the NFL, it's over.

WTF?

Are you disagreeing with what he posted or agreeing?

[Arm of Harm]

How many Jerseys of his do you own ? 0 ?? He's a bad back-up and will never start in the NFL, it's over.

The issue at this point is not EJ Manuel. It's Doug Whaley, and specifically Whaley's ability to evaluate QB talent.

I'm a casual fan. I shouldn't be able to do a better job of evaluating talent than the Bills' front office. If the front office can't do a better job of evaluating talent than I can do, they need to be replaced with a front office which can. It was crystal clear to me, from day 1, that Manuel was going to be a bust. When his name was announced, I felt the same emotions I'd experienced at the end of the Music City Miracle. That feeling of sports-related heartbreak.

I don't want to be right more often than the Bills' front office! I want my team to win the Lombardi Trophy. That can happen only if the Bills' front office makes better decisions than I would make, and better decisions than the vast majority of people here would make. During the post-Polian era, we typically haven't had front offices which reached that level of competence. It would be nice to think that Whaley was a refreshing change from that pattern. But thus far he hasn't been--at least not at the quarterback position.

[jimmifli]

Well, I'm going against the grain, I like Cardale. None of the QB's in this draft were worth a crap, may as well take the guy with most upside in the most relatively usable spot. If any other QB past the top 2 becomes anything much (and I doubt they will either but I consider them happily out of range), everyone is free to spear me with it. I'm not feeling shy in saying you won't and I'll snicker at you.

Still doesn't mean Jones is the savior, I didn't say that, remember that part of it. I said he was the guy with the most upside in the right range of picks.

All that said, I want him not having to do anything this year but hold a clipboard and learn. If Taylor goes down, and I think he will, Manuel can go on in and be Manuel, because I don't see any way it's going to ruin a learning season. Not a QB available this year, in any sense, makes the Bills a contender or drives a deep playoff run, imho, and everyone grasping for the nonexistent savior who leads us to glory looks silly.

We took a guy I don't like who I don't think is any goooooood ! Take your pick of them, none are. You'll like your same guy plenty when he gets cut, or goes to practice squad for someone, to Canada, or bounces around roster to roster trying to be a backup or a better maybe.

The savior wasn't there, and isn't there. People wanted a QB, we got one. Time to move along and let it play out like it always does.

Nothing wrong with drawing to the gutshot when the pot is giving you odds.

I hope we do it again next draft to replace EJ.

[Mace]

Nothing wrong with drawing to the gutshot when the pot is giving you odds.

I hope we do it again next draft to replace EJ.

The Chad.

[Skooby]

The issue at this point is not EJ Manuel. It's Doug Whaley, and specifically Whaley's ability to evaluate QB talent.

I'm a casual fan. I shouldn't be able to do a better job of evaluating talent than the Bills' front office. If the front office can't do a better job of evaluating talent than I can do, they need to be replaced with a front office which can. It was crystal clear to me, from day 1, that Manuel was going to be a bust. When his name was announced, I felt the same emotions I'd experienced at the end of the Music City Miracle. That feeling of sports-related heartbreak.

I don't want to be right more often than the Bills' front office! I want my team to win the Lombardi Trophy. That can happen only if the Bills' front office makes better decisions than I would make, and better decisions than the vast majority of people here would make. During the post-Polian era, we typically haven't had front offices which reached that level of competence. It would be nice to think that Whaley was a refreshing change from that pattern. But thus far he hasn't been--at least not at the quarterback position.

Great reply, your dead on accurate.

[stuckincincy]

He inked a contract.

A 4th rounder signing this late is something to ponder...

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300...ookie-contract

[Mouldsie]

Who cares?

[Mouldsie]

EJ was that bad of a pick! He'd done nothing in college to suggest he was worthy of being picked in the third round, let alone the first round. If a GM puts a first round grade on Manuel, he deserves to be fired. If a GM puts a fourth round grade on Manuel, but takes him in the first round anyway, then that GM also deserves to be fired.

EJ Manuel is the kind of quarterback who separates GMs that can evaluate QB talent from those who can't. He fit the mold for a prototypical first round QB bust: great physical tools, GMs drooling over his "upside," limited accuracy, slow information processing speed. The NFL is littered with first round QB busts just like that.

I agree that the original plan had been for Manuel to sit on the bench while Kolb started. Kolb's injury came as a surprise. However, Manuel has not shown he can benefit from development time. He was neither better nor worse in 2015 than he'd been as a rookie. He was the same guy he's always been, both with the Bills and in college. The outcome for his career would have been the same, regardless of how much or how little time he'd been given to sit and learn on the bench.

ding ding ding!

[Mouldsie]

As a college QB, Aaron Rodgers had been accurate, and had shown very good information processing speed. He was widely described as "polished." A number of draft publications projected him to go first overall. However, he fell to the 20s on draft day. That would have been an excellent opportunity for the Bills to benefit, had TD not deluded himself into thinking he was "all set" at QB with J.P. Losman. (I realize we'd traded away our first round pick in 2005 as part of the Losman deal. But I'm sure we could have gotten back into the first round of 2005 if we were willing to pay the requested price.)

Because of his accomplishments as a college pocket passer (accuracy and fast decision-making) Rodgers had earned the development time the Packers gave him. Cardale Jones didn't demonstrate those traits in college, and hasn't earned development time with the Bills or any other NFL team. (Any more than Manuel had earned that development time based on his play at FSU.)

The problem with giving development time to the wrong guy is that it crowds out some other player who could have been the right guy. JP Losman's presence on the roster prevented the Bills from taking Aaron Rodgers. Manuel's presence on the roster prevented the Bills from drafting Derek Carr. The Cardale Jones bust may not be as costly as that. But it's far from encouraging to know that the Bills aren't in a position to give development time to a QB who's earned it, because they've already committed that development time to backup QBs who haven't earned it.

I like the cut of your jibb

[trapezeus]

arm of harm, I get your point and largely agree. however, for cardale, I think the confidence a team puts in a 4th round pick is a lot less than a first round pick. if cardale does not progress whatsoever, I don't think the bills have any hesitation to draft a qb as a backup or as a starter if TT leaves next year. when you go all in on a 1st round guy AND get it wrong, like your losman case, the whole thing snowballs and you have 3 years of lost time because everyone wants to confirm that they missed instead of addressing the obvious.

you could also argue losman was a product of the last CBA where the costs of a first round talent was significantly higher than they are now. so if its clear in a year that your 1st round pick isn't good enough, you can stash them to the bench and then draft again (i.e. EJ). Losman was expensive and the team had to justify the cost by playing him through that contract.

[feldspar]

The issue at this point is not EJ Manuel. It's Doug Whaley, and specifically Whaley's ability to evaluate QB talent.

.

I wouldn't jump to that conclusion.

Why would you say that Whaley can't evaluate QB talent based on the EJ pick? The idea was to draft the best QB in the 2013 draft, was it not? Isn't that what happened? I mean, who else was better than EJ Manuel in that draft? Anybody?

The REAL issue was that the Bills were set on picking a QB early no matter what...no matter what the draft class looked like. I'm pretty sure the front office had an inkling of the state of QBs in that class, since they traded down at a point where no QBs were yet taken...and they were still able to get EJ at #16, where he was the first QB off the board. The way it worked out, the Bills got value in the second round with the trade-down.

So who was hell bent on picking a QB first? I can't tell you, but Buddy Nix was the GM then and talked about how he wanted the QB of the future in place before he left. The Bills just plain got too desperate, and THAT was the problem with the EJ pick, not evaluation per se.

[sudzy]

I wouldn't jump to that conclusion.

Why would you say that Whaley can't evaluate QB talent based on the EJ pick? The idea was to draft the best QB in the 2013 draft, was it not? Isn't that what happened? I mean, who else was better than EJ Manuel in that draft? Anybody?

.

Mike Glennon. But, the point is, what GM would use a 1st rounder on a QB in one of the worst QB drafts? Anybody? Bueller?

[Arm of Harm]

I wouldn't jump to that conclusion.

Why would you say that Whaley can't evaluate QB talent based on the EJ pick? The idea was to draft the best QB in the 2013 draft, was it not? Isn't that what happened? I mean, who else was better than EJ Manuel in that draft? Anybody?

The REAL issue was that the Bills were set on picking a QB early no matter what...no matter what the draft class looked like. I'm pretty sure the front office had an inkling of the state of QBs in that class, since they traded down at a point where no QBs were yet taken...and they were still able to get EJ at #16, where he was the first QB off the board. The way it worked out, the Bills got value in the second round with the trade-down.

So who was hell bent on picking a QB first? I can't tell you, but Buddy Nix was the GM then and talked about how he wanted the QB of the future in place before he left. The Bills just plain got too desperate, and THAT was the problem with the EJ pick, not evaluation per se.

Buddy Nix was the GM when the Manuel pick was made. I assume the final call was Nix's. But my impression is also that Whaley gave Manuel a glowing evaluation--one of the factors which led up to Nix's selection.

After becoming GM, Whaley went "all in" on EJ. It was obvious Whaley was "high on EJ," especially if you look at his actions after becoming GM, his comments to Bills backer organizations, and even his comments to prospective head coaches. There is every reason to believe Whaley was sold on Manuel, and no reason to believe otherwise.

Manuel was the prototypical first round bust: great physical tools, limited achievements as a college pocket passer. Incompetent GMs love guys like that! Tim Tebow, J.P. Losman: they're all examples of that category of player. Ryan Leaf was described as less "polished" than Peyton Manning, but supposedly had the higher "upside" due to his better physical tools. Manning was supposed to be the QB for a team that wanted instant gratification (NFL-ready); whereas Leaf was the QB for a team willing to accept delayed gratification, due to being raw. Just as Manuel had been described as "raw."

The fact there wasn't good QB talent in Manuel's draft class sounds an awful lot like an excuse for the Bills having drafted Manuel. The fact of the matter is that there is no excuse. Anyone in the Bills organization who gave a good draft grade to Manuel needs to be canned. Scouts, the GM, or anyone in between. The reason the Bills have been a second- or third-tier franchise throughout most of their existence is because we haven't demanded first tier performance from our front offices or coaching staffs. That needs to change immediately. The most obvious place to start is Doug Whaley: the man who gave EJ a glowing draft evaluation, and who went all in on him after becoming GM.

[Night Train]

Buddy Nix was the GM when the Manuel pick was made. I assume the final call was Nix's.

It was. His going away gift from Ralph/Brandon. Unforgivable.