Shaq Lawson update...

[feldspar]

Before Bellicheck, Brady was nothing. He was a 6th round draft pick who spent most of his college days riding the pine behind Drew ****ing Henson.

That's right, and Brady probably would have been riding the pine behind a different Drew in New England had Bledsoe not gotten hurt in the 2nd game in 2001. Drew Bledsoe had just signed the biggest contract in NFL history that very offseason, so it's not like some mastermind recognized Brady's potential, or anyone had a sliver of intention to start him anytime soon. Belichick lucked into Brady in other words. I didn't see any magic wand.

How did Belichick do with his first round QB picks in his five years in Cleveland, or with Bledsoe?

If you have a point, you should make it. Do you think that Belichick magically created Brady on his own or something? remember tat Belichick is historically a DEFENSIVE coach.

So, I wouldn't say he can get any NFL roster into the playoffs. But he sure as hell can make a good run with his current roster minus Brady for 4 games.

I agree, and have said as much already. Most people agree with that.

[YardRat]

If the NFL actually gave a **** about the integrity of the game this century, we wouldn't be having this conversation about Brady, Belichek and the Patriots.

[Goobylal]

That's right, and Brady probably would have been riding the pine behind a different Drew in New England had Bledsoe not gotten hurt in the 2nd game in 2001. Drew Bledsoe had just signed the biggest contract in NFL history that very offseason, so it's not like some mastermind recognized Brady's potential, or anyone had a sliver of intention to start him anytime soon. Belichick lucked into Brady in other words. I didn't see any magic wand.

How did Belichick do with his first round QB picks in his five years in Cleveland, or with Bledsoe?

If you have a point, you should make it. Do you think that Belichick magically created Brady on his own or something? remember tat Belichick is historically a DEFENSIVE coach.

Belicheat had nothing to do with Brady. He didn't draft him, he didn't develop him, and like you said, it took an injury to Bledsoe to get him into the lineup.

Speaking of which, Brady must have sold his soul to the devil. Bledsoe had only missed 2 games until then and probably would have been back starting if he had just missed a few games. But great point about them giving Bledsoe a huge contract before that season because they had no idea what they had in Brady.

Lastly I'll reiterate that you can't claim that just because Matt Cassel took the team to 11-5 in 2008, that Jimmy Garrroopppoolllo can do it. Cassel actually made a Pro Bowl after that. Garroopppoollloo is a nobody until proven otherwise.

[sahlensguy]

Belicheat had nothing to do with Brady. He didn't draft him, he didn't develop him, and like you said, it took an injury to Bledsoe to get him into the lineup.

Speaking of which, Brady must have sold his soul to the devil. Bledsoe had only missed 2 games until then and probably would have been back starting if he had just missed a few games. But great point about them giving Bledsoe a huge contract before that season because they had no idea what they had in Brady.

Lastly I'll reiterate that you can't claim that just because Matt Cassel took the team to 11-5 in 2008, that Jimmy Garrroopppoolllo can do it. Cassel actually made a Pro Bowl after that. Garroopppoollloo is a nobody until proven otherwise.

He did find a roster spot as a rookie for Brady though, as the 4th string qb. That's not nothing!

[OpIv37]

Belicheat had nothing to do with Brady. He didn't draft him, he didn't develop him, and like you said, it took an injury to Bledsoe to get him into the lineup.

Speaking of which, Brady must have sold his soul to the devil. Bledsoe had only missed 2 games until then and probably would have been back starting if he had just missed a few games. But great point about them giving Bledsoe a huge contract before that season because they had no idea what they had in Brady.

Lastly I'll reiterate that you can't claim that just because Matt Cassel took the team to 11-5 in 2008, that Jimmy Garrroopppoolllo can do it. Cassel actually made a Pro Bowl after that. Garroopppoollloo is a nobody until proven otherwise.

In '08, Matt Cassel was a nobody until proven otherwise.

Since he's been with the Patriots, Bellicheck has had to work with unknown QB's twice: Brady and Cassel. We all know the results.

And you keep saying this year's Patriots aren't like '08, but then you bring up Bellicheck's record with the Browns. The Patriots are one of the best-run orgs in the league and the Browns are one of the worst. The Patriots aren't like the Browns. So take your pick- either past performance means something or it doesn't. You can't pick and choose when it counts.

[feldspar]

In '08, Matt Cassel was a nobody until proven otherwise.

Since he's been with the Patriots, Bellicheck has had to work with unknown QB's twice: Brady and Cassel. We all know the results.

Have you listened to a word I've said?

And you keep saying this year's Patriots aren't like '08, but then you bring up Bellicheck's record with the Browns. The Patriots are one of the best-run orgs in the league and the Browns are one of the worst. The Patriots aren't like the Browns. So take your pick- either past performance means something or it doesn't. You can't pick and choose when it counts.

Apparently, you don't even know what you are talking about.

The Cleveland Browns that Belichick coached are actually now the Baltimore Ravens franchise. Those Browns relocated to Baltimore in 1996, remember? You should ****ing know that at least, since you tell us you actually live in Baltimore. The horrible Browns team you are referring to is the expansion team that started in 1999, and Belichick never had any part in that franchise. It's completely different.

Prior to Belichick being coach of the Browns, that franchise had made the playoffs 7 of the past 11 seasons...and they won their division 5 of those times. Then Belichick took over, and the Browns made the playoffs ONCE in five years. Would you say that's a significant downgrade? I think I would. Then the Browns moved to Baltimore. Then Cleveland got a brand new team after about three seasons without one. That expansion team is not the same organization Belichick coached.

Get it?

[Goobylal]

He did find a roster spot as a rookie for Brady though, as the 4th string qb. That's not nothing!

Big deal. He could have put him on the PS. No one would have taken him.

In '08, Matt Cassel was a nobody until proven otherwise.

Since he's been with the Patriots, Bellicheck has had to work with unknown QB's twice: Brady and Cassel. We all know the results.

And you keep saying this year's Patriots aren't like '08, but then you bring up Bellicheck's record with the Browns. The Patriots are one of the best-run orgs in the league and the Browns are one of the worst. The Patriots aren't like the Browns. So take your pick- either past performance means something or it doesn't. You can't pick and choose when it counts.

So what if Cassel was unproven in 2008? He proved it. Garrooppoollo has proven nothing. Just because 2 QB's out of a dozen they've drafted/groomed panned-out (Cassel briefly), it doesn't mean Garrooopppooolllo will. Actually the odds are against him succeeding. And I'm using your logic here because if this were a Bills player, you'd be saying the same thing.

[OpIv37]

Big deal. He could have put him on the PS. No one would have taken him.



So what if Cassel was unproven in 2008? He proved it. Garrooppoollo has proven nothing. Just because 2 QB's out of a dozen they've drafted/groomed panned-out (Cassel briefly), it doesn't mean Garrooopppooolllo will. Actually the odds are against him succeeding. And I'm using your logic here because if this were a Bills player, you'd be saying the same thing.

Um no. You don't get to make up a hypothetical scenario that has never actually happened then make an argument based on your guess at what my reaction would have been. That's pure nonsense.

The odds were against Brady and Cassel too, but Bellicheck is still 2 for 2 on them.

[Goobylal]

Um no. You don't get to make up a hypothetical scenario that has never actually happened then make an argument based on your guess at what my reaction would have been. That's pure nonsense.

It's not a guess. If I did a poll, there would be just 1 vote for "he wouldn't say the same thing" and that would be from you.

The odds were against Brady and Cassel too, but Bellicheck is still 2 for 2 on them.

That's not how odds work. When you're 2 for 14 in drafting QB's, the odds are against you. Again Garroopppooollo is a scrub until proven otherwise.

[OpIv37]

It's not a guess. If I did a poll, there would be just 1 vote for "he wouldn't say the same thing" and that would be from you.



That's not how odds work. When you're 2 for 14 in drafting QB's, the odds are against you. Again Garroopppooollo is a scrub until proven otherwise.

Polls and votes mean nothing. You assumed how I would react in a situation that's never occurred. You're trying to make it about me when it isn't.

And nothing you can say changes the reality that both Cassel and Brady were scrubs until Bellicheck got a hold of them. And seriously- you're a Bills fan complaining about another team being bad at drafting QB's? Ouch.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Op - I don't think I've ever wanted to argue with someone who I agree with so much.

My prediction for this season is 6-10. You'd think that would make me agree with your take on most things, but the fact that you give the Bills so little credit and such a small chance of seeing any success in the future just makes it so easy for me to want to argue with you.

[Goobylal]

Polls and votes mean nothing. You assumed how I would react in a situation that's never occurred. You're trying to make it about me when it isn't.

And nothing you can say changes the reality that both Cassel and Brady were scrubs until Bellicheck got a hold of them. And seriously- you're a Bills fan complaining about another team being bad at drafting QB's? Ouch.

The reality is the Cheaters fail with most of their QB draft picks. They've actually only hit on late rounders, which Garrroooppooolllo isn't. Meaning it's purely luck with them because if they had any inkling they'd be good, they'd have taken them much earlier to not risk losing them. So again, Garroopppoollloo has everything to prove before you can say he's even as good as Cassel, much less a HOF'er like Brady. This is common sense.

As for the Bills, I've said they've been bad at drafting QB's. I'm still waiting for them to hit on a late rounder like the Cheaters have, but hopefully TT is the man.

[OpIv37]

The reality is the Cheaters fail with most of their QB draft picks. They've actually only hit on late rounders, which Garrroooppooolllo isn't. Meaning it's purely luck with them because if they had any inkling they'd be good, they'd have taken them much earlier to not risk losing them. So again, Garroopppoollloo has everything to prove before you can say he's even as good as Cassel, much less a HOF'er like Brady. This is common sense.

As for the Bills, I've said they've been bad at drafting QB's. I'm still waiting for them to hit on a late rounder like the Cheaters have, but hopefully TT is the man.

How would you even know if they fail with most of their picks? Since Brady took over, the only one they needed was Cassel and he got them 11 wins in a season.

The Patriots have proven time and time again that they can play well when starters are unavailable, even when they need to use WR's as DB's. Since Bledsoe went down, they've had to rely on two no-name QBs. They did well with one and built a dynasty with the other. Maybe they got lucky, but their success suggests they are the first time in the FA era that is "plug and play" at any position, even at QB (and even if it's only because they are so good at cheating).

But I'm so tired of people on this board trying to write off the Pats only to see them be one of the best teams in the leave year in and year out.

The lack of Brady for 4 games is just more false hope.

[OpIv37]

Op - I don't think I've ever wanted to argue with someone who I agree with so much.

My prediction for this season is 6-10. You'd think that would make me agree with your take on most things, but the fact that you give the Bills so little credit and such a small chance of seeing any success in the future just makes it so easy for me to want to argue with you.

What prospects do you see for success? Brandon has created an organizational culture where the bottom line is valued over winning football games. Whaley was 2nd in command for all the failed Nix teams. Pegula made the same mistake he did with the Sabres and spent up to the cap the second he took over. Yes, I complained about Ralph's cheapness, but I've always maintained that throwing money at the problem won't solve it. The spending needs to be wise, and so far, it hasn't been.

It's all SSDD.

[justasportsfan]

You said both, like I said.

OP loves arguing that he argues with himself.

[chernobylwraiths]

I'm not reading all of this, so forgive me if it was brought up. But I see the Cassel talk about how he took the Patriots to 11-5 the year Brady got hurt. Cassel took the Patriots to not making the playoffs (though it was 11-5) the year after the Patriots made a historic run at the record books and came pretty close to having a perfect season. So, I think that might have been a pretty good team.

[Goobylal]

How would you even know if they fail with most of their picks? Since Brady took over, the only one they needed was Cassel and he got them 11 wins in a season.

The Patriots have proven time and time again that they can play well when starters are unavailable, even when they need to use WR's as DB's. Since Bledsoe went down, they've had to rely on two no-name QBs. They did well with one and built a dynasty with the other. Maybe they got lucky, but their success suggests they are the first time in the FA era that is "plug and play" at any position, even at QB (and even if it's only because they are so good at cheating).

But I'm so tired of people on this board trying to write off the Pats only to see them be one of the best teams in the leave year in and year out.

The lack of Brady for 4 games is just more false hope.

How would I know? Because they eventually leave and don't do anything in the league. That's how.

And keep thinking they can easily replace Brady. The truth is they can't.

[OpIv37]

How would I know? Because they eventually leave and don't do anything in the league. That's how.

And keep thinking they can easily replace Brady. The truth is they can't.

Well, first of all, there's no control sample for Brady. If he had left and didn't have Bellicheck, he might have been just as bad as those other guys. There is no way to know for sure.

And second, you keep saying they can't replace Brady, but they've only had to do it once and they won 11 games and only missed the playoffs on tiebreakers. Bellicheck is 2 for 2 with no-name QB's in NE.

[Goobylal]

Well, first of all, there's no control sample for Brady. If he had left and didn't have Bellicheck, he might have been just as bad as those other guys. There is no way to know for sure.

And second, you keep saying they can't replace Brady, but they've only had to do it once and they won 11 games and only missed the playoffs on tiebreakers. Bellicheck is 2 for 2 with no-name QB's in NE.

True there's no way to know how Brady would have turned out if he had played for another team. But that's not what happened. He played for Belichick and proved himself. Cassel played well given the Ferrari he was handed the keys to and got a huge deal from KC, and flamed out in a couple years. That's still more than Garroopppoolllo has proven, which is nothing. And given he's a "name," that means he's going to fail, according to your "logic." But make no mistake, Belichick had ZERO to do with their development. He's a defensive coach, not a QB coach.

And the bottom line with Cassel is the Cheaters missed the playoffs that year. I don't care about the record since the AFCE played a weak schedule. If they had had Brady, they'd have gone deep in the playoffs, probably returned to the SB, and maybe won it. We'll never know, but what we do know is that with Cassel, they didn't even make the playoffs. And they have a far less talented team now.

[Joe Fo Sho]

OP loves arguing that he argues with himself.

I argue with myself all the time, too. It's great, you always win.