Shaq Lawson update...

[Joe Fo Sho]

What prospects do you see for success? Brandon has created an organizational culture where the bottom line is valued over winning football games. Whaley was 2nd in command for all the failed Nix teams. Pegula made the same mistake he did with the Sabres and spent up to the cap the second he took over. Yes, I complained about Ralph's cheapness, but I've always maintained that throwing money at the problem won't solve it. The spending needs to be wise, and so far, it hasn't been.

It's all SSDD.

You don't see any prospects for success?

Dareus, Hughes, Williams, Gilmore, Darby, Watkins, McCoy, Glenn, Incognito, O-Line continuity (although still probably mediocre as a unit), Tyrod(???)...I view these as positives. I also believe that every fanbase in the NFL thinks their O-Line is bad and needs improvement. That's just the nature of the unit. They could have the number 1 running game in the NFL, but if they allow a few sacks per game...they're crap. I get it.

There's also a distinct difference between the current owner and the previous. Do you think Dareus, Glenn, Incognito, or Hughes would be on this team if Ralph was still around? I don't. To me, that's at least a sign that we're moving in the right direction. Did he hire the wrong coach? Probably. Should he cut his losses and lose 60% of his $28MM contract after this year if we miss the playoffs? I don't think so, personally.

So sure, I don't have much hope for this season. Like I said, I predict 6 wins. That said, I wouldn't call it a miracle if we win 9 games. I also can see where the team has positives and, unlike some, I'm willing to state them instead of just complain about spending too much money on a running back or having a blowhard for a coach. I'm going to enjoy watching McCoy juke defenders out of their shoes and laugh when Rex talks smack to New England. I just don't see much point in complaining so much about something I have no control over, especially when it's about a game that I enjoy watching so much.

[justasportsfan]

I argue with myself all the time, too. It's great, you always win.

you always lose too.

[Joe Fo Sho]

you always lose too.

Maybe with that attitude you do.

[justasportsfan]

Maybe with that attitude you do.

no, I was thinking about OP when I posted that

[Joe Fo Sho]

no, I was thinking about OP when I posted that

I was just joking around anyway.

[OpIv37]

You don't see any prospects for success?

Dareus, Hughes, Williams, Gilmore, Darby, Watkins, McCoy, Glenn, Incognito, O-Line continuity (although still probably mediocre as a unit), Tyrod(???)...I view these as positives. I also believe that every fanbase in the NFL thinks their O-Line is bad and needs improvement. That's just the nature of the unit. They could have the number 1 running game in the NFL, but if they allow a few sacks per game...they're crap. I get it.

There's also a distinct difference between the current owner and the previous. Do you think Dareus, Glenn, Incognito, or Hughes would be on this team if Ralph was still around? I don't. To me, that's at least a sign that we're moving in the right direction. Did he hire the wrong coach? Probably. Should he cut his losses and lose 60% of his $28MM contract after this year if we miss the playoffs? I don't think so, personally.

So sure, I don't have much hope for this season. Like I said, I predict 6 wins. That said, I wouldn't call it a miracle if we win 9 games. I also can see where the team has positives and, unlike some, I'm willing to state them instead of just complain about spending too much money on a running back or having a blowhard for a coach. I'm going to enjoy watching McCoy juke defenders out of their shoes and laugh when Rex talks smack to New England. I just don't see much point in complaining so much about something I have no control over, especially when it's about a game that I enjoy watching so much.

Well first of all, it's not just "complaining." Sure, some of it is just venting frustration with a team that's been terrible for a long time. But most of it is the simple reality of discussing a bad team- there is only so much real positive stuff that can be said before either moving into fantasy land or turning to the negative to stay in the real world. It doesn't make a lot of sense to think a team is going to get 6 wins then talk about all the positives.

And here's the thing: it's not that I don't see any positives. Sure, some players will turn in good performances be fun to watch. But that's been true through all these awful seasons. There were always a few bright spots. Hell, even some of the really bad teams had smashing defenses and S/T that just smothered our opponents. You and I agree that this team is looking at 6 wins. If that happens, it won't be these positives that define this team. It'll be the negatives.

Furthermore, you said "prospects for success." I don't see any way a Rex Ryan coached team succeeds. I don't see any way this team succeeds long term with Russ Brandon and the old guard in place. Yeah, we have a new owner and some guys are here that most likely wouldn't have been under Ralph, but they also haven't faired much better on the field. And keeping them here basically had us in cap jail this year. Granted, it looks like the cap will open up next year and that will help, but all that spending basically said "2016 is 2015 because we can't afford any changes."

Then they drafted Lawson when he had known injuries- and under some circumstances, missing a few games or even a year wouldn't be a huge deal. But he was by far the biggest addition to a struggling D. So, the FO put us in a cap situation where we couldn't fix the D via FA then doubled down on it by drafting a guy with a known injury in the first round.

Decisions like that are why I don't see prospects for success. And again- that doesn't mean individual players won't have great seasons. Hell, if everyone stays healthy and Tyrod takes a step forward, the O as a whole may even be very good. I just don't see any playoffs or consistent winning anytime soon. The talent isn't there yet and the FO keeps making head-scratching decisions.

[Ginger Vitis]

I don't see any way a Rex Ryan coached team succeeds.

11-5 and a berth in the 2010 AFC championship game

[OpIv37]

11-5 and a berth in the 2010 AFC championship game

He's 2 for 7 in terms of making the playoffs as a HC, and 0 for his last 5. While that's a lot better than what the Bills have been doing, it's not exactly what I would call "success."

[Joe Fo Sho]

Well first of all, it's not just "complaining."

It is when you repeat yourself over and over and over.

Sure, some of it is just venting frustration with a team that's been terrible for a long time. But most of it is the simple reality of discussing a bad team- there is only so much real positive stuff that can be said before either moving into fantasy land or turning to the negative to stay in the real world. It doesn't make a lot of sense to think a team is going to get 6 wins then talk about all the positives.

Why doesn't that make sense? If you think your team will only win 6 games, you're not allowed to talk about the aspects of the team that you like or that give you hope for the future? Are you allowed to talk about the negatives if you expect a team to win 11 games?

And here's the thing: it's not that I don't see any positives. Sure, some players will turn in good performances be fun to watch. But that's been true through all these awful seasons. There were always a few bright spots. Hell, even some of the really bad teams had smashing defenses and S/T that just smothered our opponents. You and I agree that this team is looking at 6 wins. If that happens, it won't be these positives that define this team. It'll be the negatives.

That doesn't mean that we can't talk about or even be excited about the positives. It also doesn't mean that you have to argue with everyone who thinks the Bills will turn it around.

I don't see any way a Rex Ryan coached team succeeds.

Here's one of your typical statements that is just BEGGING to be argued with. Then when someone inevitably argues with you, you pretend like everyone is just out to get you and claim that you didn't derail the thread. This is the reason this happens to you all of the time.

The fact is, a Rex Ryan coached team has succeeded. You can't even argue it, back to back AFC championship games is a success. That statement is ridiculous.

I don't see any way this team succeeds long term with Russ Brandon and the old guard in place.

Again, you see no possible way the Bills succeed with Brandon on the payroll? ZERO chance?

I bet you can't even tell me what Brandon's job entails. No one has been able to tell me that whenever I've asked. They just make a joke about how he's ruining the team and blah blah blah.

Yeah, we have a new owner and some guys are here that most likely wouldn't have been under Ralph, but they also haven't faired much better on the field. And keeping them here basically had us in cap jail this year. Granted, it looks like the cap will open up next year and that will help, but all that spending basically said "2016 is 2015 because we can't afford any changes."

Maybe. Although I'm willing to examine a larger sample size than 1 year before I make a judgement about a guy who is trying to right the ship that been headed in the wrong direction for the past 20 years.

Then they drafted Lawson when he had known injuries- and under some circumstances, missing a few games or even a year wouldn't be a huge deal. But he was by far the biggest addition to a struggling D. So, the FO put us in a cap situation where we couldn't fix the D via FA then doubled down on it by drafting a guy with a known injury in the first round.

This is one of the reasons that I think we'll be in the 6-win range. However, I still see long term value in drafting a guy with his skill set.

If this defense fails again this year, it will be only in small part because of who we drafted with our 1st pick.

Decisions like that are why I don't see prospects for success. And again- that doesn't mean individual players won't have great seasons. Hell, if everyone stays healthy and Tyrod takes a step forward, the O as a whole may even be very good. I just don't see any playoffs or consistent winning anytime soon. The talent isn't there yet and the FO keeps making head-scratching decisions.

The talent isn't here, yet? This talent led to the 4th rated defense in the NFL. Even in your own words..."the O as a whole even be very good." The talent is here, the coaching isn't. I don't know how you convince yourself that there's no possibility of us being close to the playoffs anytime soon? It must be miserable to watch a Bills game with that attitude. I'm not saying it will happen, but you don't see how you're just being a negative nelly? It's ridiculous.

[OpIv37]

It is when you repeat yourself over and over and over.

Funny. You don't complain about people talking about Tyrod's potential or Watkins or our RB's being a strength over and over. It's not the repetition that bothers you...

Why doesn't that make sense? If you think your team will only win 6 games, you're not allowed to talk about the aspects of the team that you like or that give you hope for the future? Are you allowed to talk about the negatives if you expect a team to win 11 games?

You can talk about them, but talking about how much you like the team and how much potential they have while saying they're only gonna win six games is nonsensical.

That doesn't mean that we can't talk about or even be excited about the positives. It also doesn't mean that you have to argue with everyone who thinks the Bills will turn it around.

I don't understand being excited about the positives when you think the positives are only enough to get six wins. And as far as "arguing," this board is about discussing the team. If someone says something about the team that I disagree with, I respond with why I disagree. This board would be worthless if someone posted something and it was followed by 40 replies of "great post!", "I agree!" "hell yeah man!"

Here's one of your typical statements that is just BEGGING to be argued with. Then when someone inevitably argues with you, you pretend like everyone is just out to get you and claim that you didn't derail the thread. This is the reason this happens to you all of the time.

Yes, I state things in a manner to get a response. That's how discussion on a message board works. If you'll notice, while my posts my be inciteful, they are about the topic at hand. The threads get derailed when people like you and Gooby make it about ME instead of the content of the posts.

The fact is, a Rex Ryan coached team has succeeded. You can't even argue it, back to back AFC championship games is a success. That statement is ridiculous.

Yup, two playoff seasons in his first two years. He inherited a team that he got to the playoffs twice, and hasn't made the playoffs in 5 straight attempts since. The Bills actually LOST one more game under him than they did under Marrone, and he sucks.

Again, you see no possible way the Bills succeed with Brandon on the payroll? ZERO chance?

I bet you can't even tell me what Brandon's job entails. No one has been able to tell me that whenever I've asked. They just make a joke about how he's ruining the team and blah blah blah.

Brandon's job is to make as much money as possible for the team. He values the bottom dollar over football success, and as long as Brandon and the other people who were involved in Ralph's losing culture are involved, the team will not be successful. It's doing the same thing and expecting different results.

Maybe. Although I'm willing to examine a larger sample size than 1 year before I make a judgement about a guy who is trying to right the ship that been headed in the wrong direction for the past 20 years.

Then look at the Sabres. He went with the trash he inherited and spent to the cap on shiny new toys without addressing the fundamental problems. It ran the team into the ground and they are just now recovering. It's the exact same thing he's doing with the Bills.

This is one of the reasons that I think we'll be in the 6-win range. However, I still see long term value in drafting a guy with his skill set.

If this defense fails again this year, it will be only in small part because of who we drafted with our 1st pick.


The talent isn't here, yet? This talent led to the 4th rated defense in the NFL. Even in your own words..."the O as a whole even be very good." The talent is here, the coaching isn't. I don't know how you convince yourself that there's no possibility of us being close to the playoffs anytime soon? It must be miserable to watch a Bills game with that attitude. I'm not saying it will happen, but you don't see how you're just being a negative nelly? It's ridiculous.

Actually the D was terrible last year and a lot of guys from that 4th ranked D are gone. You forgot two qualifying statements- the O could be good IF Taylor develops and IF everyone stays healthy. There is no depth on this team and one or two injuries are a death sentence. Again, I do not believe Rex can be successful and like you said, Pegula won't eat the contract. So, it'll be another 2-3 years of mediocrity and by that time, guys like Darius, McCoy and Kyles Williams will age out and guys like Watkins, Woods, Karlos Williams, Darby will all need new contracts, and we will be back at square 1, just like the Sabres.

[Goobylal]

What makes you think Pegs won't eat Rex's contract? He ate Marrone's and it's not like he's hurting for money.

If the defense doesn't improve markedly and the team misses the playoffs, he's a goner.

[OpIv37]

What makes you think Pegs won't eat Rex's contract? He ate Marrone's and it's not like he's hurting for money.

If the defense doesn't improve markedly and the team misses the playoffs, he's a goner.

Actually, Marrone had an out clause and walked on his own. Pegula didn't have to pay him.

Also I owe you an apology for calling you out in my last post. You kept the arguments on topic and never made it about me. Sorry.

[Goobylal]

Actually, Marrone had an out clause and walked on his own. Pegula didn't have to pay him.

Pegs had to pay Marrone $5M to not coach his team as part of the out clause. If he was worried about money, he'd given him what he wanted.

Also I owe you an apology for calling you out in my last post. You kept the arguments on topic and never made it about me. Sorry.

What post was that?

[Joe Fo Sho]

Funny. You don't complain about people talking about Tyrod's potential or Watkins or our RB's being a strength over and over. It's not the repetition that bothers you...

Please find someone who is talking about those points over and over again, instead of just pretending that people are.

You can talk about them, but talking about how much you like the team and how much potential they have while saying they're only gonna win six games is nonsensical.

Talking about a sports team on a message board is, in and of itself, nonsensical.

I don't understand being excited about the positives when you think the positives are only enough to get six wins.

You can be excited about the positives as well as weary about the negatives at the same time. It's why you watch the friggin' game, to see what happens.

And as far as "arguing," this board is about discussing the team. If someone says something about the team that I disagree with, I respond with why I disagree. This board would be worthless if someone posted something and it was followed by 40 replies of "great post!", "I agree!" "hell yeah man!"

You can also discuss Shaw Lawson without bringing up the opinion that we'll be lucky to go 1-3 in our first 4 games. Well, some people can...but you can't.

Yes, I state things in a manner to get a response. That's how discussion on a message board works. If you'll notice, while my posts my be inciteful, they are about the topic at hand. The threads get derailed when people like you and Gooby make it about ME instead of the content of the posts.

Your 1st post in this thread states that we'll be lucky to start the season 1-3. That is a pretty big stretch to blame on Shaq's injury, unless you think we'll have more wins with him. Which game do you think he'll be directly responsible for us winning?

Yup, two playoff seasons in his first two years. He inherited a team that he got to the playoffs twice, and hasn't made the playoffs in 5 straight attempts since. The Bills actually LOST one more game under him than they did under Marrone, and he sucks.

Still, this is not even close to the statement that you made. The statement that was obviously begging for an argument. Then you come back with this...which isn't at all related to what you said.

Brandon's job is to make as much money as possible for the team. He values the bottom dollar over football success, and as long as Brandon and the other people who were involved in Ralph's losing culture are involved, the team will not be successful. It's doing the same thing and expecting different results.

So what does Brandon's job entail? You still haven't answered anything about that.

My job is to make the company I work for as much money as possible. So is literally everyone who's ever been hired by anyone.

Then look at the Sabres. He went with the trash he inherited and spent to the cap on shiny new toys without addressing the fundamental problems. It ran the team into the ground and they are just now recovering. It's the exact same thing he's doing with the Bills.

I admittedly don't follow the Sabres much, if at all. But like you say, they're recovering. I assume they've gotten better since Russ was hired as President then? (See what I did there?)

Actually the D was terrible last year and a lot of guys from that 4th ranked D are gone. You forgot two qualifying statements- the O could be good IF Taylor develops and IF everyone stays healthy. There is no depth on this team and one or two injuries are a death sentence.

You admit that there's a chance?

Again, I do not believe Rex can be successful and like you said, Pegula won't eat the contract. So, it'll be another 2-3 years of mediocrity and by that time, guys like Darius, McCoy and Kyles Williams will age out and guys like Watkins, Woods, Karlos Williams, Darby will all need new contracts, and we will be back at square 1, just like the Sabres.

There are so many other variables to that equation, though. If you truly believe what you wrote, why would you follow this team?

[OpIv37]

Pegs had to pay Marrone $5M to not coach his team as part of the out clause. If he was worried about money, he'd given him what he wanted.



What post was that?

The post was my last response to Joe.

I didn't realize Marrone still got paid on the out clause. Still, people keep talking about how Pegula isn't worried about money. He bought three franchises (Bills, Sabres, Amerks), plus Harborcenter, the arena and stadium renovations, all the FA contracts- the money isn't unlimited.

[Goobylal]

The post was my last response to Joe.

I didn't realize Marrone still got paid on the out clause. Still, people keep talking about how Pegula isn't worried about money. He bought three franchises (Bills, Sabres, Amerks), plus Harborcenter, the arena and stadium renovations, all the FA contracts- the money isn't unlimited.

No problem.

Despite it all, he's still got money to burn. I have no doubt that if the defense under-performs again, Rex will be gone.

[stuckincincy]

I didn't realize Marrone still got paid on the out clause

I assumed he insisted on the walk-away clause because of the team's track record of bouncing coaches.

That's a bad rep for a club to have, for obvious reasons.

[Frenchman]

We will start liking Rex when the Bills get on with winning more and an playoff berth!

[Goobylal]

I assumed he insisted on the walk-away clause because of the team's track record of bouncing coaches.

That's a bad rep for a club to have, for obvious reasons.

I think he did it because there were other teams hot after him and the Bills got stupid.

[Joe Fo Sho]

I think he did it because there were other teams hot after him and the Bills got stupid.

Well, he thought there were other teams hot after him. He got cocky and the Bills weren't willing to commit to him long term. I think the Bills played it perfectly. If he is willing to walk out on his team and coaching staff, then good riddance...or bye Felicia as the kids are saying nowadays.