The NFL's Boring Product

[Turf]

Lets talk about the camera angles for a second.

back in the day, before high def (don't know how we lived without it), the camera men actually WORKED.

So I assumed once we got high def, we'd have great game feeds.

What drives me nuts, every ****ing game, at the start of the play, the camera is zoomed out to show 50 yards of the field. They show 50 yards of the goddamn field. Everyone looks like ants. Then they zoom in to 30 yards, and as the play develops, they zoom in some. When do we see closeups, when the play is over and they walk back to the huddle. ****ing mind blowing. The ******* that though that this was a good idea needs to be fired immediately. It ruins the game for me. Every game I'm yelling ZOOM IN. Why the **** would I want to watch a high def broadcast from the blimp? These people are so ****ing stupid and lazy its mind boggling. Then at the start of the next play, the camers is actually OFF CENTER and showing the entire field, while they casually zoom in. What is the camera man doing? ****ing idiots.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Agree to disagree on the money part of the game. You can play anywhere and be good if you have an owner who's willing to spend the money and talent evaluators who can do their job. Especially with the NBAs convoluted cap rules. You can go over the cap to re-sign any of you own players at any price up to any amount of money in total for all those guys.

The Cavs were basically right on the cap when they re-upped JR Smith for 14 million a season. There was talk that if he didn't resign and instead went to Boston, allegedly the Celtics were interested, then the Cavs would have had about 2 million to spend on his replacement. It's also why last year when the Cavs were up against the so called cap, they were able to give Tristan Thompson a huge deal that far surpassed the cap.

If the Braves still existed and had an owner like Gilbert, then no one here would think the NBA sucked because the team would be good. However, in your example, if they derped to 30-35 wins a year every year, then people would feel the same towards the NBA that they do the NFL around here. If you're spinning your wheels in the NBA you're really going backward as the chance to hit on a pick after the top 5 is almost nil. Whereas in the NFL you can still strike gold in the latter rounds to turn your franchise around.

2nd round players in the NBA are nobodies for the most part. They're interchangeable parts that get traded around the league for future considerations or for someone to dump salary and get a trade exception to play with the "cap" Or they end up playing D League ball for years and then end up playing in Europe.

The Cavs aren't great because of Dan Gilbert. He just facilitates that. If anything, his whiny Comic Sans rant after LeBron left was one of the most pathetic things I've ever seen. The Cavs are great because, like I said, one of the best players in history was born in their backyard and made a personal mission to bring them a championship out of hometown loyalty. If LeBron isn't from Cleveland, there's no chance he goes back there after his time in Miami. Today we are talking about LeBron's Lakers or whatever. Buffalo would be the same way.

[The Beef]

That's because the NBA has learned to protect it's star players and let them showcase their skills. The NFL has started to get the first part down but for some reason has completely stymied any sort of individuality.

The NHL is a whole nother ball of wax that does neither of those things. Which is why it's stuck being in a niche.

For the record Anthony Davis just dropped possibly the greatest stat line the first game of the season.

Westbrook finished an assist shy of triple double.

Minnesota has possibly tje most enviable young duo since KD and Westbrook with Wiggins and Karl Anthony Towns. KAT is a man child.

The big man has not died in the league, it's evolved. KAT, Davis and Whiteside are all studs.

Kawhi Leonard just smoked GSW opening night in the Bay.

Lebron is still throwing down ridiculous dunks and running the floor like he's in his 3rd year, not 13th.

And the Bulls are throwing out a lineup like it's 1998.

The league is far more interesting that in has been in years.

[stuckincincy]

I'd like to take a swipe at the NFLPA and the 2011 CBA and crappy play.

Reduction in contact drills, restrictions in player contact during the year and so on. Players wanted the least amount of work off-season and in-season and got it. Unprepared players, physically, mentally. Rookies not getting traditional coaching-up and failing early in their careers. Injuries all over the place.

[Mr. Pink]

The Cavs aren't great because of Dan Gilbert. He just facilitates that. If anything, his whiny Comic Sans rant after LeBron left was one of the most pathetic things I've ever seen. The Cavs are great because, like I said, one of the best players in history was born in their backyard and made a personal mission to bring them a championship out of hometown loyalty. If LeBron isn't from Cleveland, there's no chance he goes back there after his time in Miami. Today we are talking about LeBron's Lakers or whatever. Buffalo would be the same way.

But if he was cheap or didn't have the money, then the Cavs wouldn't look the way they do today. Kyrie probably wouldn't even be on the team anymore for that matter. So, while yes LeBron being there is because he wanted to bring a championship to NE Ohio, Gilbert still deserves some credit for being willing to pony up a lot of money to entice LeBron to come back, to pay out 30m in luxury tax from his own pocket to keep the entire team together and happy, and to pay the star players max contracts.

The talent evaluators have to also get some credit for drafting Kyrie and Wiggins, plus the trade acquisitions of Mozgov, JR Smith, Channing Frye and Iman Shumpert.

This team had LeBron before and a weak cast around him and all that got them to was 1 finals. Gilbert learned that the old way of trying to do it with LeBron wouldn't work and has corrected that mistake.

He's still an idiot for that comic sans email though.

[Mr. Pink]

For the record Anthony Davis just dropped possibly the greatest stat line the first game of the season.

Westbrook finished an assist shy of triple double.

Minnesota has possibly tje most enviable young duo since KD and Westbrook with Wiggins and Karl Anthony Towns. KAT is a man child.

The big man has not died in the league, it's evolved. KAT, Davis and Whiteside are all studs.

Kawhi Leonard just smoked GSW opening night in the Bay.

Lebron is still throwing down ridiculous dunks and running the floor like he's in his 3rd year, not 13th.

And the Bulls are throwing out a lineup like it's 1998.

The league is far more interesting that in has been in years.

Right now the NBA is the most interesting league in all of professional sport, imo.

And that comes down to letting the stars, be stars. The game knows to showcase its talent.

You mentioned the TWolves...of course they're not a serious playoff contender right now BUT they have young talent to showcase to the fans. And a bright future to build off of. Almost every team has that one guy that they're built around who brings the fans to the seats, a guy to tune in and watch on TV and a guy for the hometown fans and casual fan to buy a jersey of.

The other major sports could learn a thing or two from how the NBA has currently marketed and deliver their product.

[Crisis]

But if he was cheap or didn't have the money, then the Cavs wouldn't look the way they do today. Kyrie probably wouldn't even be on the team anymore for that matter. So, while yes LeBron being there is because he wanted to bring a championship to NE Ohio, Gilbert still deserves some credit for being willing to pony up a lot of money to entice LeBron to come back, to pay out 30m in luxury tax from his own pocket to keep the entire team together and happy, and to pay the star players max contracts.

The talent evaluators have to also get some credit for drafting Kyrie and Wiggins, plus the trade acquisitions of Mozgov, JR Smith, Channing Frye and Iman Shumpert.

This team had LeBron before and a weak cast around him and all that got them to was 1 finals. Gilbert learned that the old way of trying to do it with LeBron wouldn't work and has corrected that mistake.

He's still an idiot for that comic sans email though.

Kyrie and Wiggins were about as consensus #1 picks as you can get it. The Cavs would be (and were) a lottery team without Lebron. Sure, I'll give him credit for spending an absurd amount into the luxury - something he's responsible for being implemented to get back at Miami. That's about it.

The guy lucked out into winning a bunch of lotteries after Lebron left. It's like giving Oilers management credit for falling into McDavid.

[Mr. Pink]

Kyrie and Wiggins were about as consensus #1 picks as you can get it. The Cavs would be (and were) a lottery team without Lebron. Sure, I'll give him credit for spending an absurd amount into the luxury - something he's responsible for being implemented to get back at Miami. That's about it.

The guy lucked out into winning a bunch of lotteries after Lebron left. It's like giving Oilers management credit for falling into McDavid.

The Cavs wouldn't be a lottery team with Kyrie and Wiggins in their primes, of course that would mean they'd both have to actually get paid, however they wouldn't be the best team in the East. They'd be a 6 seed bounced in the first round type of team without Love and LeBron.

And you do have to give some credit. The year they took Kyrie, they could have ended up with Derrick Williams who was thought to be the most NBA ready player in that draft. And instead of Tristan Thompson, they could have taken Brandon Knight or Bismack Biyombo.

Then the Wiggins draft, they could have gone with Jabari Parker instead. He was highly touted too...but is he the guy that would have gotten Love from the TWolves? No way to know.

I say the above because they took Wiggins first overall in 2013, he was a surprise pick where the Cavs thought they were smarter than the rest of the league. They could have taken that approach with all 3 drafts instead of the route they went.

And instead you're looking at a lineup of Parker, Knight, Williams, bum, Mozgov. If that's your lineup, do you think LeBron comes back? Do you think there's the pieces there to trade for Love?

The management deserves some credit for picking and developing the right pieces and then Gilbert deserves some credit for being willing to pay a 30m luxury tax for keeping it together.

[Crisis]

The Cavs wouldn't be a lottery team with Kyrie and Wiggins in their primes, of course that would mean they'd both have to actually get paid, however they wouldn't be the best team in the East. They'd be a 6 seed bounced in the first round type of team without Love and LeBron.

And you do have to give some credit. The year they took Kyrie, they could have ended up with Derrick Williams who was thought to be the most NBA ready player in that draft. And instead of Tristan Thompson, they could have taken Brandon Knight or Bismack Biyombo.

Then the Wiggins draft, they could have gone with Jabari Parker instead. He was highly touted too...but is he the guy that would have gotten Love from the TWolves? No way to know.

I say the above because they took Wiggins first overall in 2013, he was a surprise pick where the Cavs thought they were smarter than the rest of the league. They could have taken that approach with all 3 drafts instead of the route they went.

And instead you're looking at a lineup of Parker, Knight, Williams, bum, Mozgov. If that's your lineup, do you think LeBron comes back? Do you think there's the pieces there to trade for Love?

The management deserves some credit for picking and developing the right pieces and then Gilbert deserves some credit for being willing to pay a 30m luxury tax for keeping it together.

I'm not giving Cleveland credit for picking Wiggins/Irving. They were absolutely consensus first picks. Parker was seen as close to Wiggins, but it was more of McDavid vs Eichel (not comparing them in terms of talent, just the idea was that Eichel was a good consolation prize). Irving was always going to be the first pick in his draft, even spending most of the year injured at Duke. He was that good. He was the best PG prospect to come out since CP3/Deron Williams.

The only time Cleveland picked first and there wasn't a consensus top pick was the year they drafted Bennett.

Tristan Thompson would be seen as a huge bust on any team that didn't have Lebron on it.

Again, Gilbert lucked out into having Lebron wanting to come back and win a championship in Cleveland to cement his legacy and winning some draft lotteries to get the pieces around LBJ.

The only thing I give him credit for is not being cheap and paying into the luxury tax.

[Bill Cody]

The NFL is sliding down. Ratings on the 4:30 Sunday, the 8:30 Sunday Monday night and Thursday night all down by 20%. Why is that? It's a crappy product and there's a lot of crappy teams nobody wants to watch. Every week out of like 15 games there's 4-5 watchable games, that's it.

[BillsFanCupp38]

I find myself watching non-Bills games less and less. Almost never anymore. Nothing there interests me. I watched the end of the Charger/Falcon game. That was pretty good, but these teams are going where? IDK.

We'll never see Raiders/Steelers, Cowboys/Redskins or Rams/Vikings again. Those rivalries died with the 1970s.

I think you make a good point about the rivalries. I'm trying to think of rivalries that are in the NFL right now. And I can't really think of any. I suppose the most recent was Tom Brady and Peyton Manning. But when I think of the days of old I can think of Jim Kelly and Dan Marino. Troy Aikman and Steve Young. The lack of talent, more injuries, more penalties, more commercials comma no continuity with the teams because of the free agency era is all a disaster for the NFL

[Crisis]

This thread deserves a bump. Keep wondering why the ratings are going down, Goodell.

[Arm of Harm]

This is going send Millennials running for their safe spaces.

The ratings are down because the NFL has an NBA problem.

But everyone's afraid to say it.

Ever notice how boxing gave way to MMA?

Why do you suppose MLB is so much more popular with Latinos than African Americans?

Why are NHL fans 99% caucasian?

This is a quote from Charles Barkley: "White folks are not going to come to see a bunch of guys with tattoos, with cornrows. I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks different, they're stupid."

Do the math. It's not politically correct, but it's undeniable. It's a combination of human nature and demographic math.

In a vacuum, Kaeprnick's nonsense would have been a blip, but in the racially charged atmosphere cultivated by the let for purely political purposes, it has served as an accelerant. And watching Goodell lie down has sent many people to the exits.

Back before the Bills unloaded Wang, he was an important part of the NFL's efforts to market their product to China. When the NFL wants to reach out to Latinos, they celebrate the Latino players in the NFL. It stands to reason that people, regardless of race, tend to identify more closely with those most similar to themselves. In a perfect world--at least from the NFL's marketing perspective--the racial composition of the NFL would resemble the racial composition of the target market the NFL was attempting to reach.

It's worth pointing out that, since 1980, the Olympic gold medalist for the 100 meter dash has always had West African ancestry. One possible explanation for that is that a mutation beneficial to sprinting ability appeared in West Africa, spread to large numbers of West Africans, but not to anyone else. Possibly as a result of that beneficial mutation, African Americans have been able to nearly extinguish non-black participation in the NBA, and have extinguished most non-black participation in the NFL. You never hear of an East Asian running back, or an Indian offensive lineman, or a Middle Eastern cornerback. The number of East Asian starters, Indian starters, or Middle Eastern starters in the NFL could be counted on one hand. (As opposed to many hundreds of black starters.) I'm guessing there are no more than ten Latino starters in the NFL. The only non-black race that has a meaningful level of participation in the NFL is the white race. As you point out, white participation in the NFL has been declining; and has already been extinguished at those positions which most emphasize sprinting ability.

[WagonCircler]

Back before the Bills unloaded Wang, he was an important part of the NFL's efforts to market their product to China. When the NFL wants to reach out to Latinos, they celebrate the Latino players in the NFL. It stands to reason that people, regardless of race, tend to identify more closely with those most similar to themselves. In a perfect world--at least from the NFL's marketing perspective--the racial composition of the NFL would resemble the racial composition of the target market the NFL was attempting to reach.

It's worth pointing out that, since 1980, the Olympic gold medalist for the 100 meter dash has always had West African ancestry. One possible explanation for that is that a mutation beneficial to sprinting ability appeared in West Africa, spread to large numbers of West Africans, but not to anyone else. Possibly as a result of that beneficial mutation, African Americans have been able to nearly extinguish non-black participation in the NBA, and have extinguished most non-black participation in the NFL. You never hear of an East Asian running back, or an Indian offensive lineman, or a Middle Eastern cornerback. The number of East Asian starters, Indian starters, or Middle Eastern starters in the NFL could be counted on one hand. (As opposed to many hundreds of black starters.) I'm guessing there are no more than ten Latino starters in the NFL. The only non-black race that has a meaningful level of participation in the NFL is the white race. As you point out, white participation in the NFL has been declining; and has already been extinguished at those positions which most emphasize sprinting ability.

And in addition to race, the culture of the players has begun to mirror hip hop culture, both in look and behavior. I look at the way Richard Sherman acts and plays and it makes me start looking around for my TV remote. I guarantee you I'm not alone.

[Mouldsie]

And in addition to race, the culture of the players has begun to mirror hip hop culture, both in look and behavior. I look at the way Richard Sherman acts and plays and it makes me start looking around for my TV remote. I guarantee you I'm not alone.

Sherman and the Seahawks D in general plays the way you should play. They play fast and physical and, outside of last night, with great technique and form. I highly disagree with this example.

[DraftBoy]

Sherman and the Seahawks D in general plays the way you should play. They play fast and physical and, outside of last night, with great technique and form. I highly disagree with this example.

It's not about the way they play, it's about how they look and act. That's his issue and he's right, he's not alone, but he is in the minority.

[sahlensguy]

It's not about the way they play, it's about how they look and act. That's his issue and he's right, he's not alone, but he is in the minority.

Whatever.

Race doesn't have anything to do with what makes the game fun or not so fun to tune into.

I'm enjoying the NBA lately more than I am the NFL. One thing that the NBA has right is youtube. You can watch full highlights of games, often shortly after the game is done. Full highlights are easily available for the games top performers as well. Every basket is there to review, all in HD. Scouting talent is a few simple clicks away. The NFL doesn't come close to that.

It's not about what struggles or successes the different leagues have on a macro level that is important imo. Rather what are the leagues doing that make their product interesting to YOU. Race is a red herring.

[WagonCircler]

Sherman and the Seahawks D in general plays the way you should play. They play fast and physical and, outside of last night, with great technique and form. I highly disagree with this example.

I'm talking about the hit on our kicker and I'm pretty sure that hit on the last play of the game, in the right front corner of the end zone, was him as well.

That and the taunting of Ryan, it's bulls_hit.

You may think I'm in the minority, but I assure you, I'm not. And the NFL is feeling it.

[WagonCircler]

Whatever.

Race doesn't have anything to do with what makes the game fun or not so fun to tune into..

In a sense, you're right. I love Russell Wilson. He's the same race as punk ass ***** Richard Sherman.

But there are WAY more athletes, black and white, who act like Richard Sherman than act like Russell Wilson.

Young people's arrogance is funny. You think you're the only ones whose opinions matter or whose money spends. But, as with most issues, you're dead wrong.

It's painfully obvious that thug culture is taking over the NFL, and that the league's pussy, PC approach is turning people off.

[Joe Fo Sho]

the league's pussy, PC approach is turning people off.

I love Russell Wilson.

I'm confused, do you like boring PC crap or don't you?