Buffalo news and media in general

[YardRat]

I think the '2 for 20' is a little bit of a stretch.

2014- Watkins, KuJo, P.Brown and Henderson. Randall Johnson (now with NYJets) would probably still be here, as well as Russ Cockrell (still playing this weekend with Pittsburgh), if not for Wrecks.
2015- Darby, Miller and O'Leary. Dez Lewis. Tony Steward (Saints) may still be here also. Karlos Williams? Was a good pick until he got himself preggers. Still, Pittsburgh snagged him up.
2016-Lawson, Ragland, Washington, Jones, JWilliams, Listenbee and Seymour.

Really all three draft classes are a little early to grade (maybe not '14, three years is the benchmark, but looking at the picks as an entire group 20 of the 20 are on an NFL roster in some capacity (even Cyril who landed with the Bears).

That's not bad.

[YardRat]

5 of 21 Of Polian's picks his first three years in the first seven rounds never made it out of training camp, let alone stuck with the team (or any team) in any capacity.

[Mace]

I'll have to agree to disagree with anyone who thinks Whaley is in any way comparable with Polian here, because I just don't see it.

Yardie old son, you're touting guys you know need replacing, and guys who make no contribution but fill a roster spot, a good chunk of them damaged in one form or another. Mentioning guys on other teams isn't flattering to Whaley because he has control of the roster and he kept lots more that aren't doing anything but always waiting until next year.

Whaley is a good pro personnel guy, he's just a terrible GM imho, and I can't really understand any attempts to defend his drafts for their lack of contributions.

[ICRockets]

Mace is dead on with Whaley, IMO. Season after season, he finds veteran roster depth that exceeds expectations. Outside of that skill set, however, he leaves much to be desired.

[YardRat]

I'll have to agree to disagree with anyone who thinks Whaley is in any way comparable with Polian here, because I just don't see it.

Yardie old son, you're touting guys you know need replacing, and guys who make no contribution but fill a roster spot, a good chunk of them damaged in one form or another. Mentioning guys on other teams isn't flattering to Whaley because he has control of the roster and he kept lots more that aren't doing anything but always waiting until next year.

Whaley is a good pro personnel guy, he's just a terrible GM imho, and I can't really understand any attempts to defend his drafts for their lack of contributions.

Polian wasn't a great GM either...until the team started winning. Will the team ever win under Whaley's watchful eye? Don't know, but three years is a little early to pass final judgement, isn't it? Whaley could flame out and never win anything...he could also end up being the architect of multiple Super Bowl champions...despite his perceived current 'failings'.

Is comparing Whaley to Polian foolish? In some sense, yes...the same sense that compares Dak Prescott's and Derek Carr's careers to Peyton Manning's and Tom Brady's. Sure, it's a no-brainer now, because Manning and Brady have been around a lot longer and had the time to accomplish much more...Prescott and Carr are just getting started. "There is no comparison between Polian and Whaley"...of course not...one's already run his career from beginning to end, and the other is just getting started.

[WagonCircler]

Is comparing Whaley to Polian foolish? In some sense, yes...the same sense that compares Dak Prescott's and Derek Carr's careers to Peyton Manning's and Tom Brady's. Sure, it's a no-brainer now, because Manning and Brady have been around a lot longer and had the time to accomplish much more....

No, this is more like comparing EJ Manuel's career to Tom Brady's. It's the absolute zenith of stupidity. Whaley is one of hundreds of failed GMs who have never accomplished anything. Polian is arguably by himself, in a group of one. At the very least, he's one of the top 2 or 3 GMs of all time. Exactly one Head Coach was hired under Polian. That HC is in the Hall of Fame now. . Under Whaley's tenure here, coaches can't get out of here fast enough. The revolving door could power the building like a windmill.

Doug Whaley's teams have never even sniffed the playoffs. Bill Polian's was named GM in 1986. The Bills were in the AFC Chamionship game by the 1988 season.

If you're trying to make an ass of yourself, you're really crushing it.

[YardRat]

No, this is more like comparing EJ Manuel's career to Tom Brady's. It's the absolute zenith of stupidity.

Well, if you consider Whaley's first three years here a complete dumpster fire and want to believe Polian built a Super Bowl team in two years , I guess that's your prerogative.

Whaley is one of hundreds of failed GMs who have never accomplished anything. Polian is arguably by himself, in a group of one. At the very least, he's one of the top 2 or 3 GMs of all time. Exactly one Head Coach was hired under Polian. That HC is in the Hall of Fame now. . Under Whaley's tenure here, coaches can't get out of here fast enough. The revolving door could power the building like a windmill.

At the same point of their careers, Polian didn't accomplish much more. Of course, right now, Polian is a great GM...30 years, three teams, and a Super Bowl ring later. If you want to believe that Marrone leaving and Wrecks failing is all on Whaley, then again, that's your prerogative. Maybe Marrone walked because he didn't get along with Whaley...maybe not. One thing is pretty certain, however, Wrecks wasn't canned because of anything Whaley had done.

Doug Whaley's teams have never even sniffed the playoffs. Bill Polian's was named GM in 1986. The Bills were in the AFC Chamionship game by the 1988 season.

Maybe if Russ Branding had butted the **** out three years ago they would have.
Whaley's first three years have resulted in 24 wins...that's the most wins in any three year period for the team this century. He took over the reigns of a team that hadn't finished 8-8 or better in almost 10 years. The first 14 years of the 2000's the team finished .500 or better 3 times. They have done it twice in the last three years...despite having a moron for head coach #1 and a clueless OC, and twin morons for head coach #2 and his defensive specialist.

Is it the playoffs? No. Is it anything to crow about compared to making it to the conference championship after the third year? Not really. Is it better than we've seen since TMCM? Yeah, undoubtedly.

[swiper]

What porkchop said.

[WagonCircler]

Well, if you consider Whaley's first three years here a complete dumpster fire and want to believe Polian built a Super Bowl team in two years , I guess that's your prerogative..

These contentions are supported by the facts. So, yes, I believe them.

[Mace]

Polian wasn't a great GM either...until the team started winning. Will the team ever win under Whaley's watchful eye? Don't know, but three years is a little early to pass final judgement, isn't it? Whaley could flame out and never win anything...he could also end up being the architect of multiple Super Bowl champions...despite his perceived current 'failings'.

Is comparing Whaley to Polian foolish? In some sense, yes...the same sense that compares Dak Prescott's and Derek Carr's careers to Peyton Manning's and Tom Brady's. Sure, it's a no-brainer now, because Manning and Brady have been around a lot longer and had the time to accomplish much more...Prescott and Carr are just getting started. "There is no comparison between Polian and Whaley"...of course not...one's already run his career from beginning to end, and the other is just getting started.

Well, the team kept winning because he found guys that contributed, even if momentarily in the scope of NFL careers. Again, his picks were for a relatively established roster, where Whaley's roster had spots to be won. There's sort of a huge difference between "guy who stays on the roster and never does much" and "contributor".

Like I said, Whaley has done some decent pro personnel work, but his roster is full of injured guys and bodies waiting perpetually until next year, and I have to mention one more time, this is not a contender roster, but a roster needing contributions.

Whaley behaves like he's plugging gaps for depth with reaches instead of building a a team where he needs to only worry about plugging gaps with reaches, then fills on the holes with value vet minimum guys as if his roster was full of budding glory with only one more year to develop or get healthy and now it has been 3, on yet another coach who just has to be able to use his clever selections like they should be.

You see the same team I do, failing to meet the same needs or establish a rookie core of guys for value because they are on rookie contracts and can contribute out of the box.

Again, this isn't a contender's roster when you're reading this :

http://www.buffalorumblings.com/2017...hus-washington

[SpikedLemonade]

Well
it is clear after reading Vic's new article that the buffalo media wanted Whaley gone and a football czar. Anything short means we will suck and the dysfunction at one bills drive will continue.

I disagree. This franchise will fail because we will not have a qb and they will trade valuable picks for a guy who is not good enough and buries us even further. This is not due to dysfunction thr franchise qb they want will not be found in round 1 this year. Some guy in the later rounds will be better and be a total luck pick. Which will not be us as Whaley and the bills refuse to draft qbs.

The media have it exactly right.

Of course, the Zombie Homers don't get it. They always think we are "a few bounces" away from making the play-offs.

So the Zombies do NOT want truth from the media. Just keep serving them the same identical crap sandwich Bills management has made fresh annually for 17 years.

What is in your head?

In your head?

Zombie

Zombie

Zombie

[swiper]

These contentions are supported by the facts. So, yes, I believe them.

Not arguing your point here, but Polian came in with GM experience and Whaley did not. Just thought that point should be added to your discussion.

[swiper]

[Arm of Harm]

Well, if you consider Whaley's first three years here a complete dumpster fire and want to believe Polian built a Super Bowl team in two years , I guess that's your prerogative.



At the same point of their careers, Polian didn't accomplish much more. Of course, right now, Polian is a great GM...30 years, three teams, and a Super Bowl ring later. If you want to believe that Marrone leaving and Wrecks failing is all on Whaley, then again, that's your prerogative. Maybe Marrone walked because he didn't get along with Whaley...maybe not. One thing is pretty certain, however, Wrecks wasn't canned because of anything Whaley had done.


Maybe if Russ Branding had butted the **** out three years ago they would have.
Whaley's first three years have resulted in 24 wins...that's the most wins in any three year period for the team this century. He took over the reigns of a team that hadn't finished 8-8 or better in almost 10 years. The first 14 years of the 2000's the team finished .500 or better 3 times. They have done it twice in the last three years...despite having a moron for head coach #1 and a clueless OC, and twin morons for head coach #2 and his defensive specialist.

Is it the playoffs? No. Is it anything to crow about compared to making it to the conference championship after the third year? Not really. Is it better than we've seen since TMCM? Yeah, undoubtedly.

Let's compare Whaley to Marv's time as general manager. Marv's teams went 7-9; whereas Whaley's averaged 8-8. Not a huge difference there, especially when you consider that this year's win against Jacksonville was a gift from the officials, and this year's win against Cleveland was a gift from the schedule makers.

Back when Marv was GM, a number of people pointed out that a large number of players drafted by Marv were on the roster. They felt the roster had become younger and better under Marv than it had been under TD. (Even though Marv's record, 7-9, was not in itself something to write home about.) Most of those players had careers that fizzled rather quickly. Of Marv's acquisitions, only Kyle Williams made substantial contributions to the team over the long run. Just as the majority of the Whaley-drafted players you mentioned are unlikely to be making meaningful contributions over the long run either.

Marv said that when you build for the future you build for someone else's future. In other words, he'd openly admitted to being in "win now" mode, despite taking over a rebuilding team. Whaley has also been in "win now" mode. As a specific example, the best, most promising, most valuable player from the Bills' 2013 draft class was Kiko Alonzo. Whaley traded away Kiko for an aging running back. That running back was a very important part of the Bills' #1 rated rushing attack this past season. But how many years like that does McCoy have left in the tank? One? Two? Three at the very most? The McCoy trade was the type of move you make when you want to sell off a little bit of your future to maximize the present. Both GMs went into "win now" mode despite not having a quarterback.

At his peak Kyle Orton played at a surprisingly high level for the Bills. But other than that, the nearest approximation to a QB Whaley acquired was Tyrod Taylor. Taylor was Rex Ryan's idea. Without that, the Bills' starting QB for 2015 would have been decided by a competition between EJ Manuel and Matt Cassell. Rex Ryan's suggestion of signing Tyrod Taylor might well have saved Doug Whaley's job, even if it was not enough to save his own. Rex Ryan was absolutely fired in large part because of Doug Whaley. Granted, losing Ryan was no great loss. But Whaley is a coach killer GM who has oversold the owner on the level of talent he's supposedly acquired. Whaley hasn't found a QB, and is never going to find a QB. The Bills will not win a Super Bowl without a QB. Nor will they win a Super Bowl by replicating the Ravens of 2000.

[Arm of Harm]

No, this is more like comparing EJ Manuel's career to Tom Brady's. It's the absolute zenith of stupidity. Whaley is one of hundreds of failed GMs who have never accomplished anything. Polian is arguably by himself, in a group of one. At the very least, he's one of the top 2 or 3 GMs of all time. Exactly one Head Coach was hired under Polian. That HC is in the Hall of Fame now. . Under Whaley's tenure here, coaches can't get out of here fast enough. The revolving door could power the building like a windmill.

Doug Whaley's teams have never even sniffed the playoffs. Bill Polian's was named GM in 1986. The Bills were in the AFC Chamionship game by the 1988 season.

If you're trying to make an ass of yourself, you're really crushing it.

I agree with most of this, even if you make your case more aggressively than I would. However, I don't see Polian as a top-5 all time GM.

The single most important player during the Bills' Super Bowl years was Jim Kelly. Jim Kelly was drafted several years before Polian became GM. In Carolina Polian used a top-5 pick on Kerry Collins. Even after Collins came back from his alcoholism, he was merely an okay quarterback for the New York Giants. A bit of a step up from Trent Dilfer, perhaps, but not much of one. The one real quarterback Polian drafted was Peyton Manning, in a draft when everyone knew that Manning and Leaf would be the first two players drafted. In his book, Polian wrote that Leaf helped make that decision for him, by blowing off a scheduled interview with Indy. Also, I take into account the fact that a number of Polian's drafts in Indy came up dry. I've heard that his son, Chris Polian, was largely to blame for that. In the year Peyton Manning got hurt, the Colts went 2-14. That 2-14 record allowed them the first overall pick, which they used on Andrew Luck. Polian had been the GM for many years when that 2-14 record occurred. Whereas, when Tom Brady was out for a year with an injury, Matt Cassell led the Patriots to an 11-5 record or something.

One way to measure a GM's success is by the quantity of talent he's acquired. The Bill Polian Bills teams were good, with plenty of talent. No arguing that. But we were less talented than the Cowboys teams which handed us those Super Bowl losses. We were also less talented than the 49ers of the '80s or the Steelers of the '70s. In fact, I would argue that during the Bills' heyday in the early '90s, most of the teams in the NFC East were comparable to us in terms of talent.

Obviously, Polian was worlds better than Whaley. No one is arguing against that. (Well, except for YardRat. But he's wrong.) But if I was the owner of an expansion team, and had to pick a GM, I'd pick the guy who built the 49ers of the '80s or the Steelers of the '70s or the Cowboys of the '90s.

[Historian]

What QB did Polian draft for the Bills?

Frank Reich, 3A, 1985.

Now you can say that he was only a backup, but I think even casual fans understood his value to Kelly and the team. It was akin to Kemp/Lamonica in the 1960s.

Not to mention he drafted Superman out of Princeton in 1988.

I will say this though, while I believe Polian should be remembered with the Browns, and the Halases, he did have the a timliness of fate around him.

Terry Bledsoe's heart attack, led to his promotion. (as well as the fact that Ralph usually just promoted the next guy in line)

The USFL folded just in time to collect back up all the players the Bills had lost to the rival league, Hull, Drane, Kelly, Cribbs, et al.

Ralph's familiarity with Marv, from his preseason Bills broadcasts.

And so on and so forth.

All the stars aligned for him.

He did however pull off a few signings or trades that show his eye for talent. Everybody remembers the Bennett trade, but he also signed Tasker away from the Oilers, and traded popular WR Byron Franklin for Metzelaars.

Whaley is still early in his career, but for anyone to even try to compare him to Polian is just plain silly...although it would be a real kick in the nuts to cut him loose, and watch him build a contender elsewhere.

Oh, and BTW, the Thomas pick was Ralph's to make. Polian laid it all out for him and I believe Ralph's response was..."All of business is a risk." This has been well documented.

As for the press, personally, I appreciate someone who doesn't parlay the company line. This team has been a mess for a long time, and with all respect to Terry and Kim, while they have only been here for a couple seasons, this is what they bought into.

This organization needs to prove something to the community that financially supports it....not the other way around.

[Mace]

Frank Reich, 3A, 1985.

Keep in mind I'm on your side, but Reich was Terry Bledsoes' pick. He became ill slightly after.

Bledsoe became ill in 1985 and Bill Polian, the teams’s pro personnel director, was assigned to handle the contract negotiations with Smith, the No. 1 pick, and sign him for Buffalo and not the rival United States Football League. Polian succeeded.

In December of 1985, after a second 2-14 season, Bledsoe was fired by owner Ralph. C. Wilson Jr.. Polian, who was not a well-known member of the organization at the time, was appointed to succeed him.

http://buffalonews.com/2015/12/16/te...gm-in-the-80s/

[YardRat]

Let's compare Whaley to Marv's time as general manager. Marv's teams went 7-9; whereas Whaley's averaged 8-8. Not a huge difference there, especially when you consider that this year's win against Jacksonville was a gift from the officials, and this year's win against Cleveland was a gift from the schedule makers.

You can go through anybody's schedule in any year and pick and choose a few games and try and contend 'Yeah, but that win/loss doesn't really count because (fill in the blank)'...even the Bills Super Bowl teams. You are what your record says you are with no ifs or buts.

Obviously, Polian was worlds better than Whaley. No one is arguing against that. (Well, except for YardRat. But he's wrong.) But if I was the owner of an expansion team, and had to pick a GM, I'd pick the guy who built the 49ers of the '80s or the Steelers of the '70s or the Cowboys of the '90s.

Of course, as the record stands right now, Polian is worlds better than Whaley. He's had literally decades of experience and accomplishments to support him. Whaley hasn't. Doesn't mean he will, either, but also doesn't mean he won't. That's kind of the point...Polian didn't build his career in his first three years in Buffalo, he started his path with us. Polian made similar mistakes as Whaley early on. That's the point. Wagon doesn't expect some of whaley's moves to pan out successfully. Hell, let's be honest...many didn't expect some of Polian's moves to pan out either. The difference is Polian was afforded the time to allow some of those moves to pan out and overshadow the ones that didn't.

Frank Reich, 3A, 1985.

Polian wasn't GM until '86...he was pro personnel before that.

Now you can say that he was only a backup, but I think even casual fans understood his value to Kelly and the team. It was akin to Kemp/Lamonica in the 1960s.

Only after he filled in for Kelly and won games. Prior to that I would contend most fans wanted him gone, upgraded, or didn't even know who the hell he was. If you remember, Reich didn't exactly light anything up in preseason games and looked horrid in his first start until the latter part of the fourth quarter.

Not to mention he drafted Superman out of Princeton in 1988.

Good pick, huh?

Whaley is still early in his career, but for anyone to even try to compare him to Polian is just plain silly...although it would be a real kick in the nuts to cut him loose, and watch him build a contender elsewhere.

Of course it's silly if one is comparing career achievements, like Wagon is. Polian has had a career...Whaley's is just getting started.

Will Whaley ever achieve what Polian has? Probably not...but it's too early to claim that his current record is proof that he won't. Will Whaley fail out as a GM and spend the rest of his football days as a middlin' executive kicking around pro personnel department's if he's lucky to even maintain that? Maybe...it's certainly a possibility. Agin, it's too early to definitively claim that also.

Polian has Franklin for Metzelaars. Whaley has Shephard for Hughes.
Polian has Brian McClure and Gale Gilbert. Whaley has Tyrod Taylor and Kyle Orton.
Polian has Biscuit. Whaley has Watkins.
Polian has Bob Williams, Ezekial Gadsen, Kirk Roach, Tim Borcky and Butch Wright (in his first three drafts only). Whaley has, well, nobody he drafted in the first seven rounds that never even made it to an NFL game except for Ragland and Listenbee and they are injured rookies.

Granted, Polian has Will Wolford, Thurman Thomas, Nate Odomes and several others. We'll just have to wait and see if Cordy Glenn, Sammy Watkins, and Ronald Darby (and several others) pan out as well.

[Mace]

You're shifting past his draft failures to encompass pro personnel work though. Whaley is a decent pro personnel guy but that's only part of the package. Good drafts even effectively lessen the need for pro FA's, which leads back to a glaring flaw. We wouldn't need those FA's if he replenished via the draft.

He drafted guard Richardson, tackles Henderson & Kouandjio, needed to hire Incognito & Mills. Drafted wee Gronkowski, needed rehire Felton, drafted Listenbee, needed Harvin, drafted J. Williams, needed Bush, etc....drafted Manuel, needed Orton, Taylor....there's more.....

Mentioning Whaley's picks have nearly all seen NFL action is sort of misdirection, they're largely no good and he won't let go of them.

[Mouldsie]

The problem with evaluating Whaley is he's never been fully in charge. His last two drafts were based around "get Rex what he wants" the draft before that it was Russ Brandon saying we need to trade up and make a splash for Sammy Watkins, the year before that it was EJ which he probably takes the most blame for but Marrone and Nix signed off on it too and Nix was technically the GM. He's also never picked the coach before this seasons ....and we don't know if he even picked this coach.

Dysfunctional is right.