There is a lot of QB stupidity going on around here.

[swiper]

[QUOTE=stuckincincy;4306195]

James Harris was one of the most horrid QBs in history. Ole 'Chicken Wing' Harris with the awkward side cocked chicken-wing throwing motion. So glad the Rams took that crap.[/QUOTE

Huh? In 3 seasons with the LA Rams ('74, '75, '76) He started 27 games. Over that span, the Ram's 3-season record was 32-9-1, making the playoffs all three seasons.

The Rams gladly took that crap.

It was in spite of Harris. The Bills dumped him with his 49% comp percentage. He was horrid. Couldn't protect the ball. Just a nightmare. They plugged him in at QB on Chuck Knox's run-first, play strong defense team. He was displaced by Ron Jaworski and then Pat Haden. He really only played 74 & 75 before they dumped him. He had been injured a couple of times. In his most productive year, 1975, he threw 14 TD vs 15 INT. He was so bad the Rams owner booted him. A career 52% comp. passer. Yeah. I remember all the boos coming out of War Memorial Stadium. The Bills had two of the worst QBs in the league (the other being Dennis Shaw). Thank goodness for OJ Simpson.

[YardRat]

I would guess that if you count trades Buffalo has invested more first round picks toward acquiring a QB in the last 20 years than most teams in the league.

[Arm of Harm]

I would guess that if you count trades Buffalo has invested more first round picks toward acquiring a QB in the last 20 years than most teams in the league.

Could be. I certainly don't know enough about other teams' drafting habits to dispute your point, at any rate.

However . . . there's a difference between how the Bills have acted over the last 20 years, and how the teams that have solved their QB problems have acted. Over the course of several drafts, there will normally be several QBs taken in the first round, due primarily to their throwing accuracy and decision-making. Some years you might not get any QBs like that, other years it might be two or three. The last time the Bills used an early pick to draft a QB like that was 1983.

The 2004 draft was a perfect example. In terms of QBs there was discussion about the big three. (Eli Manning, Philip Rivers, and Ben Roethlisberger.) TD drafted Losman in the first round of that draft, after the big three were already off the board. Each of the big three proved a solution to his team's QB problems. Losman, obviously, did not. Even though Losman was a first round pick, he was drafted due to his physical gifts, not because of his accuracy or decision-making. Having invested in the QB position once, the right way, the Chargers, Giants, and Steelers didn't need to invest again for a very long time. In contrast to which, the Bills have been penny wise, pound foolish. Their envisioned long-term solutions have been based on blatant front office incompetence. When those long-term solutions have (inevitably) failed, they've turned to stopgaps, half measures, and efforts to mask the absence of any long-term answer at the position. The problem is under-commitment of resources at the decisive moment--the moment when the Bills' QB problems could have been solved. That initial under-commitment of resources, or misallocation of resources, is then followed by an over-commitment of draft picks or salary cap space to QBs who have done nothing at all to merit such.

I'll give some examples. In 2004, TD had inquired about trading up with Houston, so that he could draft Roethlisberger. But he demurred after deciding Houston's asking price for the pick was too high. Then in 2005 TD didn't attempt to trade back into the first round for Aaron Rodgers, because he'd convinced himself he was "all set" at QB with Losman. Years later, Doug Whaley would have the opportunity to draft Derek Carr. But he chose to pass up that chance because he had EJ Manuel, and because he wanted to draft Sammy Watkins instead. Any time you have the chance to draft a franchise QB, it's a decisive moment. A moment that will change the next ten plus years of your football team. For whatever reason, the Bills have consistently underallocated or misallocated resources to the QB position during these decisive moments, and have tried to make up for that by over-allocating resources to the position at other times.

[YardRat]

You can say the same about every team in the league, I'm sure nobody is immune from missing on a draft pick (like JP) or missing on an opportunity to move up and get one (like Ben) because they thought the price was too high.

Also, regarding Kelly, let's not get too deep into how smart that front office was considering they considered Tony Hunter a higher rated player and chose him in the first round before taking Jimbo a couple of picks later.

[Mr. Pink]

Picking up a guy like Nick Foles, drafting a QB within the first 3-4 rounds, and grooming him while Foles starts is a decent option, I think. I even think somebody like Hoyer would put up better numbers than Taylor with their run game. For far less money.

I've been saying either Hoyer or McGloin for a while now...after seeing McGloin in his attempt in Oakland when Carr went down I'm pretty against him...but still good on Hoyer.

Hoyer, while unspectacular, has a command for an offense. He can perform well, when healthy. He's exactly the guy you want to act as a bridge to the next guy as at this point he's gotta know he's not a future full time starter in this league due to his own limitations as a player and his health. He'd accept his role as a bridge to Mahomes, Kelly, Cardale Jones or whoever you take next year - whichever the case of all that may be. And he may even win you some games in the process while leading a team to a 6 seed...if he can stay healthy for a full season as he's an above .500 QB for his career even with last years abysmal Bears record.

Not to mention the fact that he should be actually cheap. He made 2m last year with the Bears and I don't see him making much more than that...2 years 5m and a few incentives should be plenty enough to get it done.

[Mace]

I would argue that the stupidity at the QB position begins at One Bills Drive. For years the Bills have tried to cut corners at the QB position, typically investing far less (in terms of first round draft picks) there than they've invested in positions like RB or DB. On the relatively rare occasions when they've drafted a QB in the first round, it's usually a guy with great physical tools but subpar accuracy and/or decision-making. Guys like Losman and Manuel. The combination of under-allocating draft-day resources and foolishly using those draft day resources which were allocated is why the Bills haven't drafted a real QB since 1983. (Over 30 years ago.) It's no coincidence that the Bills haven't been to the playoffs in almost 20 years.

Right now the Bills are facing twin droughts. The playoff drought and the QB drought. Several consecutive Bills front offices were responsible for these twin droughts; and each of those front offices really wanted (wants) job security. To achieve which, they seek Band-Aid solutions at QB. Note that none of these solutions have any benefit for us as fans. They are not stepping stones towards a Bills Super Bowl win. They are merely intended to provide job security for whichever marginally competent Bills front office happens to be keeping us out of the Super Bowl at the time. Tyrod Taylor is merely the most recent addition to this series of Band Aid solutions. He is the successor to Kyle Orton, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Kelly Holcomb, Drew Bledsoe, and any other Bills QB capable of playing well enough to create job security for the front office, without putting us into any kind of realistic conversation about the Super Bowl.

It is pointless to argue about whether Tyrod Taylor is a better or worse Band Aid solution than, say, Jay Cutler or Tony Romo. If we are discussing things in those terms, we're just spinning our wheels.

If the problem is going to be solved, Step 1 needs to be for Pegula to install a Bills' front office which will avoid the two QB-related sins described above. We already know that this Bills front office can't evaluate QB talent, because they're the ones responsible for the Manuel pick. The replacement front office needs to place more emphasis on a QB's decision-making and accuracy than on his physical tools. Once the right front office is put in place, then Step 2 will be for it to obtain a long-term answer at QB.

There's probably one more step I have to keep harping on because it stands out like a sore thumb to me. They need to have staff to develop rookie QB's they draft.

-Chan Gailey didn't ever lean towards developing a QB, preferred vets.
-Marrone let his newb OC Hackett also be QB coach.
-Marrone then hired Downing as QB coach (close) but he was coming off a period of making Stafford regress in Detroit
-Rex hired Wildcat Lee, the essential not passing teacher of passers
-McDermott has hired Culley who has taught WR's the last 23 years, and has Lubick as assistant, who also taught WR's.

This is not a staffing methodology to develop quarterbacks. Any younger guys, unless emerging from spread or air raid offenses perfectly polished at reads and snaps under center with great mechanics and footwork, have no one to teach them in adapting to the pro game. Because of that, it can't be any surprise Manuel, Cardale, etc will probably exit with the same problems they came in with.

[Mr. Pink]

There's probably one more step I have to keep harping on because it stands out like a sore thumb to me. They need to have staff to develop rookie QB's they draft.

-Chan Gailey didn't ever lean towards developing a QB, preferred vets.
-Marrone let his newb OC Hackett also be QB coach.
-Marrone then hired Downing as QB coach (close) but he was coming off a period of making Stafford regress in Detroit
-Rex hired Wildcat Lee, the essential not passing teacher of passers
-McDermott has hired Culley who has taught WR's the last 23 years, and has Lubick as assistant, who also taught WR's.

This is not a staffing methodology to develop quarterbacks. Any younger guys, unless emerging from spread or air raid offenses perfectly polished at reads and snaps under center with great mechanics and footwork, have no one to teach them in adapting to the pro game. Because of that, it can't be any surprise Manuel, Cardale, etc will probably exit with the same problems they came in with.

It's easy to just simplify it as have a QB coach and the guy can succeed. However there are guys who have it and then guys who just don't. Put Manuel and Cardale into that area of guys who just don't have it. Losman was another guy who just didn't have it and a QB guru was brought in to try to coach him up - Sam Wyche.

The problem isn't the coaching on these guys, it's the talent evaluators who bring in hot garbage. I'm not excusing the poor coaching just that no one can turn chicken crap into chicken salad.

Put Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Ben Roethlisberger, Drew Brees on the Bills of the past decade and any of the coaches we had would have looked like geniuses.

[X-Era]

Put Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Ben Roethlisberger, Drew Brees on the Bills of the past decade and any of the coaches we had would have looked like geniuses.

I really believe it's t he sum of all the parts not just one. We can't say ____ QB would make us a SB team. We can't say ____ HC would make us a SB team. It's the lump sum.

The QB spot has not been adequately manned to get us to the SB since... the SB years. Go figure. But neither has the HC position... DE position... OL overall...

To me this is really simple. Tyrod's contract is very reasonable for an average starting QB. Picking up his option does not prevent us from drafting QB's until we find the right guy... DO BOTH. Keep Tyrod AND keep looking.

[YardRat]

I'm not excusing the poor coaching just that no one can turn chicken crap into chicken salad.

Well, somebody can, but it requires cheating.

[coastal]

The plan is to tank!

[Kenny]

The plan is to tank!

Get rid of TT and that's pretty much a given.

[SpikedLemonade]

The plan is to tank!

Why not?

[Mace]

It's easy to just simplify it as have a QB coach and the guy can succeed. However there are guys who have it and then guys who just don't. Put Manuel and Cardale into that area of guys who just don't have it. Losman was another guy who just didn't have it and a QB guru was brought in to try to coach him up - Sam Wyche.

The problem isn't the coaching on these guys, it's the talent evaluators who bring in hot garbage. I'm not excusing the poor coaching just that no one can turn chicken crap into chicken salad.

Put Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Ben Roethlisberger, Drew Brees on the Bills of the past decade and any of the coaches we had would have looked like geniuses.

Nah, just can't agree.

No point in trying to defend Losman the way he turned out, but useful to point out Wyche crowed about Losman's mobility (they talked of running and gunning), then spent the offseason publicly trying to break him of his footwork because he kept trying to use his mobility.

The QB's you mentioned are from a previous era, not spread or air raid. That era is gone. Luck was the last polished pro style QB coming out, and he doesn't come close to comparing with them outside of his early success in his weak division.

The problem absolutely IS coaching, and there's absolutely no way you can get around it. Dallas adapted their offense to work with Prescott, Tennessee & TB build teams around Mariota (Jason Michael previous OC) & Winston (Bajakian, QB coach history), Raiders helped Carr with Musgrave, Wentz in Philly has Reich.

They either have "it" or they don't is so oversimplified it is meaningless, because you're talking about spread/air raid shotgun QB's with 1, 2 reads per play entering the pro game of superior athletes and better DC's looking to stop you. Not teaching mechanics, footwork or reads with any degree of skill guarantees a revolving carousel of crapshoot, hoping guys can magically learn the most complex position in an unforgiving league in terms of time and patience.

I don't know of any skilled profession where a college graduate is plug and play without instruction, because the process is about moving from theory to execution, and the base of knowledge in terms of real world is nonexistent.

You flatly can't not "develop" a QB and say he didn't develop, it speaks for itself.

[The Jokeman]

The plan is to tank!

The problem with tank like scenarios is a guy you might lust over could return to school see Peyton Manning and Andrew Luck as examples.

[Mace]

The problem with tank like scenarios is a guy you might lust over could return to school see Peyton Manning and Andrew Luck as examples.

Additional problems with tank, on purpose or not, well look at the Browns and Sabres. Doesn't necessarily work like people expect it to.

[The Jokeman]

There's probably one more step I have to keep harping on because it stands out like a sore thumb to me. They need to have staff to develop rookie QB's they draft.

-Chan Gailey didn't ever lean towards developing a QB, preferred vets.
-Marrone let his newb OC Hackett also be QB coach.
-Marrone then hired Downing as QB coach (close) but he was coming off a period of making Stafford regress in Detroit
-Rex hired Wildcat Lee, the essential not passing teacher of passers
-McDermott has hired Culley who has taught WR's the last 23 years, and has Lubick as assistant, who also taught WR's.

This is not a staffing methodology to develop quarterbacks. Any younger guys, unless emerging from spread or air raid offenses perfectly polished at reads and snaps under center with great mechanics and footwork, have no one to teach them in adapting to the pro game. Because of that, it can't be any surprise Manuel, Cardale, etc will probably exit with the same problems they came in with.

I agree with some of what you said but not all. Case in point with Chan Gailey. I think had the Vikings not taken Christian Ponder we could have seen him in a Buffalo Bills QB. I think the biggest issues with the Bills is not matching skillet to QB except in the case of Tyrod as think the Greg Roman Colin Kaepernick offense matches Tyrod yet as we see it's not good enough. Dennison to me is a WCO type which to me isn't Tyrod at all. Though think it could be Foles/Hoyer and Trubinsky/Mahomes and most definitely Peterman.

[The Jokeman]

Additional problems with tank, on purpose or not, well look at the Browns and Sabres. Doesn't necessarily work like people expect it to.

I agree that Browns tanked. In terms that's a whole other matter as to me the NHL draft is rigged with their lottery hidden envelope system. As think it ironic franchises that need a super star to fill the seats find a way to get the Crosby, Ekbland, McDavid and Matthew's. Yet we fill it with an Eichel. I won't be surprised if Arizona or Winnipeg get number 1 this year.

[Mace]

I agree with some of what you said but not all. Case in point with Chan Gailey. I think had the Vikings not taken Christian Ponder we could have seen him in a Buffalo Bills QB. I think the biggest issues with the Bills is not matching skillet to QB except in the case of Tyrod as think the Greg Roman Colin Kaepernick offense matches Tyrod yet as we see it's not good enough. Dennison to me is a WCO type which to me isn't Tyrod at all. Though think it could be Foles/Hoyer and Trubinsky/Mahomes and most definitely Peterman.

Chan Gailey proved through his years, he didn't want to develop a QB, he wanted a vet. The only times he had to suffer young QB's were when there were injuries. He didn't want Ponder, totally unsuited to his pistol, he didn't want Kaepernick totally suited to his pistol. He wanted to stay with Fitz, vet. Chiefs started Huard the vet until stuck with Thigpen from injuries in Thigpen's only real productive year. Jets stuck with Fitz as long as they could.

Gailey wanted to use vets not tailor a QB.

[jimmifli]

The plan is to tank!

Nope. They're keep the Rod.

[Mr. Pink]

I really believe it's t he sum of all the parts not just one. We can't say ____ QB would make us a SB team. We can't say ____ HC would make us a SB team. It's the lump sum.

The QB spot has not been adequately manned to get us to the SB since... the SB years. Go figure. But neither has the HC position... DE position... OL overall...

To me this is really simple. Tyrod's contract is very reasonable for an average starting QB. Picking up his option does not prevent us from drafting QB's until we find the right guy... DO BOTH. Keep Tyrod AND keep looking.

I think it's just one. Look at Brady. The Pats have changed all the parts around him and he's still awesome regardless of what the Pats give him. Look at Manning, he switches teams let alone coaches and is still Peyton Manning. A great QB is great regardless of everything else and makes everyone around him better.