No Brian Cox?Originally Posted by Historian
No Brian Cox?
Historian (06-28-2017)
Rodgers is better than Favre, hands-down. No question at all about that. He's also better than Bart Starr. Back in Starr's day the Packers were a run-oriented team. In Starr's best year he had 2438 passing yards. (Equivalent to 2786 yards over a 16 game season.) Let's look at the worst full season for Rodgers. (I'm defining a "full season" as a season in which the QB started at least 12 games.) In Rodgers' worst full season, he threw for 3821 yards. That's over 1000 yards more than Starr's best season (equivalent to 2786 yards over 16 games).
You could counter that by pointing out that the 1960s Packers passed the ball less often than does today's Packers team; making it harder for a guy to pile up passing yards. And that's true. So at that point you look at yards per attempt: 7.8 for Starr, 7.9 for Rodgers. The problem with that comparison is that yards per attempt overstates the accomplishments of a run offense QB, and understates those of a QB in a pass-first offense. That's why Matt Schaub has a higher career yards per pass attempt than Joe Montana or Tom Brady. Just as yards per attempt is overstating the achievements of Schaub and understating those of Brady and Montana; it's also overstating the achievements of Starr and understating those of Rodgers. Rodgers is better than Starr, and it's not even close.
1. Colin Kaepernick
2. Brian Cox
3. James Harrison
4. Terrell Owens
5. Chad Ocho Cinco Johnson
6. Keyshawn Johnson.
7. Albert Haynesworth
8. Jim McMahon
9. Simeon Rice
10. Desmond Howard
Could go on and on.
Ready for NFL Draft!
You can toss around all of the stats you want, they are irrelevant, especially when trying to compare completely different generations. I'm not a Bart Starr fan myself (or Favre either, really) but IMO you'd be hard-pressed to find a Packer fan that has Rodgers rated as the best QB in their history (unless he is the only QB they've ever known) and it's probably a pretty healthy discussion whether he is Top 2 with many of them.
YardRat Wall of Fame
#56 DARRYL TALLEY #29 DERRICK BURROUGHS#22 FRED JACKSON #95 KYLE WILLIAMS
Having looked at a lot of stats, my sense is that stats such as yards per attempt and QB rating are driven not so much by era, as they are by the type of offense being run. A run-oriented offense typically means a boost to a QB's yards per attempt, but a reduction in his QB rating. Whereas, a West Coast offense with lots of short passes will boost a QB's completion percentage, and therefore his QB rating. On the other hand his yards per attempt will take a hit, because only a small percentage of his pass attempts will be to targets deep downfield.
Generally speaking, yards per attempt will make a run-offense QB look better than he should; while QB rating will make a pass offense QB look better than he deserves. Rodgers (very slightly) comes out ahead of Starr even in the comparison that's unfair to him (yards per attempt). Whereas, if you look at the comparison that's unfair to Starr--QB rating--Rodgers clearly dominates. A QB rating of 104.1 for Rodgers to 80.5 for Starr.
Starr threw 1.1 TDs for every INT. Rodgers has thrown 4.1 TDs for every INT. Montana's ratio is 2.0; Brady's is 3.0.
The stats clearly place Rodgers in the same elite company as Brady and Montana. So why aren't people giving him the same kind of credit they'd give the other two?
I think that for a lot of people it comes down to championships. Montana's teams won four Super Bowls; Brady's won five, Bradshaw's won four, Starr's won five NFL championships (including two Super Bowl wins). Rodgers has just one Super Bowl win, so people conclude he isn't as good as the others. (Even though his stats say otherwise.)
It's not like Joe Montana went out and drafted Ronnie Lott, or Jerry Rice, or his multiple Pro Bowl offensive linemen. Nor did Terry Bradshaw draft the Steel Curtain defense or the various Hall of Fame teammates he had on offense. Montana, Brady, Bradshaw, and Starr happened to be on much better football teams than any team Rodgers has been a part of. That doesn't make those guys better quarterbacks than Rodgers--it just means they got luckier.
He's right. Bart Starr was not a great QB (neither was Jack Kemp). Favre was, but Rodgers is the best QB in Packers history. Unless you're a Lynn Dickey or John Hadl fan.
Here you go: http://www.espn.com/sportsnation/sto...ackers-history
Arm of Harm (06-26-2017)
Bart Starr was not only the best qb the Packers ever had, he's a serious contender for best NFL qb ever.
I've been watching NFL football since 1959 and watched the AFL during its run, and Bart Starr, IMO, played the position the best.
Tom Brady is the only guy who comes close.
Other guys have stats and rings and were, and are great in their own right, but Starr is still the best.
My tebya razdavim
Generalissimus Gibby (06-27-2017)
You don't know what you are watching since 1959.
Bart Starr was not as good as Joe Montana, Roger Staubach, Brett Favre, Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady right off the top of my head. Crawl back under your rock.
There will be times when I'll watch the same movie as a middle aged adult that I watched as a kid, or as a teenager. Normally I find that I'm much less easily impressed as an adult. And not just with movies: but with books, and almost anything else where you can draw a fair, 1:1 comparison to what I saw as a kid or as a teen.
You watched Bart Starr at a young age; and it's quite possible you were more easily impressed then, than you are now.
CJ Spiller had that one season in which he averaged an astonishing 6.0 yards per carry. But, as good as that average was, it was a little inflated by the fact that the Bills had a pass-oriented offense that season. That helped boost Spiller's per-carry stats. Achieving that same yards per carry in a run-oriented offense would have been a significantly greater accomplishment. (Not that there was anything wrong with what Spiller did do that season.)
The best running back in NFL history needs to be a guy who operated in a run-oriented offense. Not a guy who CJ Spillered his way to a shiny per-carry average in a pass-oriented offense. Likewise, the best QB in NFL history needs to be a guy who carried the offense on his back, in a pass-oriented offense. Not just a guy who Matt Schaubed his way to a shiny yards per pass attempt in a run-oriented offense. (Matt Schaub's career yards per pass attempt is higher than Tom Brady's; largely because Schaub had the luxury of operating in a run-oriented offense.)
Aaron Rodgers' yards per pass attempt is higher than Schaub's, or Brady's, or Starr's, or Montana's. Even though a run-oriented offense tends to boost a QB's yards per pass attempt--thereby helping Schaub and Starr--Rodgers comes out ahead of Starr even so. You look at almost any stat of Rodgers', and it's going to be jaw-droppingly good. Any time a QB puts up the kind of insanely good numbers we're seeing from Rodgers, it's worth sitting up and taking notice. And, at least when I've seen him play, his success came despite woefully inadequate pass protection from his OL, despite a moribund running game, and despite some key drops by his receivers. His stats may actually be understating his level of play.
Don't forget Miami G Bob Kuechenberg.
After the 1980 game when the Bills broke the Miami losing streak (dating back to 1969 ), he stated that game was the lowest point of his career..since the Bills were the worst team in football.
Bills were 11-5 that year and won the division. F U Bob and loved watching the HOF pass him over year after year..which hurt him personally.
Karma.
Anonymity is an abused privilege, abused most by people who mistake vitriol for wisdom and cynicism for wit
Stop with your stats.
You blaspheme.
Stats are the lifeblood of sports sites.
Fiat justitia ruat caelum. Noli timere. Laus Deo.
That's a lot of years watching. If you come to the conclusion Starr was the best, you must have been napping when Unitas was playing.
"You can't be a real country unless you have beer and an airline - it helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need beer."
~ Frank Zappa
swiper (06-27-2017)
Anyone that compares Bart Starr IN ANY WAY to CJ Spiller is demented.
That being said...
http://www.salon.com/2001/12/06/starr_6/
THURSDAY, DEC 6, 2001 04:25 AM GMT
The greatest quarterback of all time
Overlooked by most polls, the best person to ever take a snap in the NFL is Bart Starr.
ALLEN BARRA
Last week I wrote that in the NFL, good passing beats good running, and I think I got a nasty e-mail from every reader who ever played high school football. Please, no more “My coach has 35 years’ worth of experience and he says …” e-mails! I know what your coach said; that’s why he’s still a high school coach.
And, please, no more with “Your theory …” What I’ve done is taken 40 years of accumulated football wisdom and tried to cull some lessons from it. So, I’m pleased to see I have a lot of readers. And I’m sure to get a lot more nasty e-mails when I weigh in on the oldest of pro football debates: Who is the best quarterback of all time?
Depends. Are you talking best athlete, most potential, most career value? I’m never sure what someone else is asking, but I know what I want. For instance, is the “best” quarterback the one you want playing for*your*team in the big game? If it is, then the end-of-century polls have got it all wrong: The best quarterback in pro football history isn’t Joe Montana or Johnny Unitas or Otto Graham or Dan Marino or John Elway. If by best you mean most likely to win championships, then the man you want in back of your center is Bart Starr.
Why do I have to go back 30-some years to pick my best quarterback? Well, for starters, it’s the last time in football when they were full, complete players, as God and Vince Lombardi intended them to be. Unlike the generation that followed, ’60s quarterbacks weren’t automatons, mere “snap-takers” acting out the orders of sideline brain trusts. Quarterbacks were expected to help conceive and carry out game plans, and call their own plays. Bart Starr did this better than any quarterback he played against and perhaps better than anyone ever. Starting with the last four games of the 1959 season through a handful of injury-riddled appearances in 1969, Starr posted a standard of clutch performances in big games unmatched in NFL history.
...more...
Or, if you think Unitas was the best, a head injury must have prevented you from watching Otto Graham.
Like I said, there are lots of guys that were great in their own right, but if you wanted a winner, that was Bart Starr.
Greatest QB of all time: Bart Starr
http://m.packers.com/news/video/grea...2-e11198e037c1
For video highlights of who every serious Packers fan considers the greatest...
http://www.footballnation.net/conten...terbacks/6376/
The definitive list: Top 10 NFL quarterbacks
Posted on 1/24/2008 7:00:00 AM
By*Kerry Byrne*FN In-House Expert
...
1. BART STARR*(Green Bay, 1956-71)
Best*season (1966):*156 for 251 (62.2%), 2,257 yards, 9.0 YPA, 14 TD, 3 INT, 105.0 passer rating
Career:*1,808 for 3,149 (57.4%), 24,718 yards, 7.8 YPA, 152 TD, 138 INT, 80.5 passer rating*
Championships:*1961, 1962, 1965, 1966, 1967
Overview:*That's right. Bart Starr. The greatest quarterback in the history of the game.
Sit down and take notes:
History has done a grave disservice to the legacy of Starr, the 17th-round draft pick out of pre-Bear Bryant Alabama who turned into the most clutch and most cruelly efficient passing assassin of his or any other generation.
History remembers Starr's legendary coach, and the bevy of Hall of Fame talent that surrounded him. It forgets that Starr was Lombardi's second in command, a tremendous big-game performer, and that the Packers of the 1960s would have been just another team without the prolific Starr as their beloved on-field leader. Instead, they won five NFL championships, with Starr at the helm of every single one of those title teams, while he crafted an NFL-record 9-1 postseason mark. The rings say it all: Starr is the only quarterback in history who has one for every finger on his throwing hand.
And even if you listen to teammates today, they make it pretty clear that they would have fallen on a grenade for Starr. Leadership is an elemental piece of quarterbacking – probably more important than gaudy passing stats. And that love his teammates had for their field general is an incredible sign of his leadership.
But forget, for a moment, the team accomplishments and the "intangibles" of leadership.
If you want to talk passing and statistics, we'll put Starr up against anybody. Anybody.
He led the NFL in passer rating five times. Johnny Unitas led the league in passer rating just twice. Ditto Joe Montana. Only Steve Young surpassed Starr's mark (six).
And, lest we forget, Starr was the best postseason passer in NFL history, as evidenced by his record 104.8 playoff passer rating and 1.41 percent interception rate, also a postseason record (CHFF readers are well aware of the importance of not throwing picks in the playoffs). Starr played in an era when 80 was a decent passer rating. Yet he still performed more efficiently in the playoffs than folks such as Montana, Brady, Manning, Marino, Young and ... well, anybody, ever.
There's a cause and effect here, folks: NFL's greatest dynasty, only winners of three-straight title games, and a record 9-1 postseason mark. And there, underlying it all, is Starr with his postseason passing records. The two are intricately intertwined.
History also remembers Starr's Packers as a great running team, and that's certainly true of their earlier years. But the truth is that they typically passed the ball more effectively than they ran it, especially during their run of three straight, when they were a below-average running team.
In their 1965 championship season, the Packers were 11th in the 14-team league with an average of 3.4 yards per rushing attempt. They were second in the league, with an average of 8.2 yards per passing attempt.
In their 1966 championship season, the Packers were 14th in the 15-team league, with an average of 3.5 yards per rushing attempt. They were first in the league, with an average of 8.9 yards per passing attempt.
In their 1967 championship season, the Packers were*4th in the 16-team league, with an average of 4.0 yards per rushing attempt. They*were first in the league, with an*average of 8.3 yards per passing attempt (Starr himself that season averaged 8.7 YPA).
Starr averaged a remarkable 7.85 YPA over the course of his entire career,*the 8th-best mark in history, and better than that of a slate of quarterbacks who are generally regarded as the best passers in history, including Dan Marino (7.37), Joe Montana (7.52), Roger Staubach (7.67), Dan Fouts (7.68), Sonny Jurgensen (7.56), Fran Tarkenton (7.27), Y.A. Tittle (7.52), Terry Bradshaw (7.17) and Joe Namath (7.35).
Six times in the 1960s, Starr surpassed 8.2 YPA for a season. To put that into context, Peyton Manning has surpassed 8.2 YPA just twice in his brilliant 10-year career.
And, if you want drama, don't forget that Starr*scored the winning TD in the Ice Bowl, probably the most famous game in NFL history. Sure, Montana led his team 92 yards for the game-winning score in Super Bowl XXIII. But he did it on a 68-degree night in Miami. Turn down the thermostat by 86 degrees (it was 18-below in the fourth quarter of the Ice Bowl) and you begin to approximate the conditions under which the greatest quarterback in NFL history operated during his greatest moment in the sport's greatest game.
And Starr was brilliant on that drive, in the decisive moments of the sport's most famous game: he completed 5 of 5 passes in ball-busting cold, and then called a run play for the winning score. But instead of handing it off, he decided in his mind, without telling his teammates, that he was going to punch it in himself. It was only fitting: the game's greatest signal-caller taking matters into his own hands in the sport's signature moment.
To cap his career*achievements, Starr*earned*MVP honors in the first two Super Bowls after shredding the best the AFL could throw his way for 452 yards on 47 passing attempts (9.6 YPA).*Among those victims were the 1967 Raiders,*perhaps the AFL's greatest single team. He posted a combined 106.0 passer rating in those two games. If you think it was no small feat to beat up on "upstart" AFL teams, just look at how NFL*quarterbacks fared in Super Bowls III and IV. (Here's a hint: they were embarrassed.)
When it comes to a combination of leadership, victories, big-game performances and statistical supremacy nobody – NOBODY – put together a more total package than Bart Starr, the greatest quarterback in NFL history.
Last edited by CommissarSpartacus; 06-27-2017 at 07:50 AM.
Sammy Baugh, Johnny Unitas and Otto Graham were all far better than Bart Starr.
Otto Graham was in the league championship game all 10 years he played, winning 7.
It's absolutely impossible to compare QBs from different eras. The game has changed so dramatically and the rules for the offense are nothing like the past.
ticatfan (06-27-2017)
Or even the CFL. lol
Political correctness ( or cancel culture as it is called today) is a doctrine fostered by a delusional ,illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by MSM which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.
Harry S Truman 1941.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote