Top 10 Hated Players of all time by Bills fans

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Re: Top 10 Hated Players of all time by Bills fans

1. Rod Kush
2. Tom Cousineau
3. Rob Johnson
4. Deon Sanders
5. Tom Brady
6. Keyshawn Johnson
7. Boomer Esiason
8. Nick Buoniconti
9. Horst Muhlmann
10. Ron Smith

All *******s for various reasons.

No Brian Cox?

[Arm of Harm]

Re: Top 10 Hated Players of all time by Bills fans

Aaron Rodgers isn't even the best QB in his team's history...maybe not even #2...let alone top 5 of all time.

Rodgers is better than Favre, hands-down. No question at all about that. He's also better than Bart Starr. Back in Starr's day the Packers were a run-oriented team. In Starr's best year he had 2438 passing yards. (Equivalent to 2786 yards over a 16 game season.) Let's look at the worst full season for Rodgers. (I'm defining a "full season" as a season in which the QB started at least 12 games.) In Rodgers' worst full season, he threw for 3821 yards. That's over 1000 yards more than Starr's best season (equivalent to 2786 yards over 16 games).

You could counter that by pointing out that the 1960s Packers passed the ball less often than does today's Packers team; making it harder for a guy to pile up passing yards. And that's true. So at that point you look at yards per attempt: 7.8 for Starr, 7.9 for Rodgers. The problem with that comparison is that yards per attempt overstates the accomplishments of a run offense QB, and understates those of a QB in a pass-first offense. That's why Matt Schaub has a higher career yards per pass attempt than Joe Montana or Tom Brady. Just as yards per attempt is overstating the achievements of Schaub and understating those of Brady and Montana; it's also overstating the achievements of Starr and understating those of Rodgers. Rodgers is better than Starr, and it's not even close.

[Frenchman]

Re: Top 10 Hated Players of all time by Bills fans

1. Colin Kaepernick
2. Brian Cox
3. James Harrison
4. Terrell Owens
5. Chad Ocho Cinco Johnson
6. Keyshawn Johnson.
7. Albert Haynesworth
8. Jim McMahon
9. Simeon Rice
10. Desmond Howard

Could go on and on.

[YardRat]

Re: Top 10 Hated Players of all time by Bills fans

You can toss around all of the stats you want, they are irrelevant, especially when trying to compare completely different generations. I'm not a Bart Starr fan myself (or Favre either, really) but IMO you'd be hard-pressed to find a Packer fan that has Rodgers rated as the best QB in their history (unless he is the only QB they've ever known) and it's probably a pretty healthy discussion whether he is Top 2 with many of them.

[Arm of Harm]

Re: Top 10 Hated Players of all time by Bills fans

You can toss around all of the stats you want, they are irrelevant, especially when trying to compare completely different generations. I'm not a Bart Starr fan myself (or Favre either, really) but IMO you'd be hard-pressed to find a Packer fan that has Rodgers rated as the best QB in their history (unless he is the only QB they've ever known) and it's probably a pretty healthy discussion whether he is Top 2 with many of them.

Having looked at a lot of stats, my sense is that stats such as yards per attempt and QB rating are driven not so much by era, as they are by the type of offense being run. A run-oriented offense typically means a boost to a QB's yards per attempt, but a reduction in his QB rating. Whereas, a West Coast offense with lots of short passes will boost a QB's completion percentage, and therefore his QB rating. On the other hand his yards per attempt will take a hit, because only a small percentage of his pass attempts will be to targets deep downfield.

Generally speaking, yards per attempt will make a run-offense QB look better than he should; while QB rating will make a pass offense QB look better than he deserves. Rodgers (very slightly) comes out ahead of Starr even in the comparison that's unfair to him (yards per attempt). Whereas, if you look at the comparison that's unfair to Starr--QB rating--Rodgers clearly dominates. A QB rating of 104.1 for Rodgers to 80.5 for Starr.

Starr threw 1.1 TDs for every INT. Rodgers has thrown 4.1 TDs for every INT. Montana's ratio is 2.0; Brady's is 3.0.

The stats clearly place Rodgers in the same elite company as Brady and Montana. So why aren't people giving him the same kind of credit they'd give the other two?

I think that for a lot of people it comes down to championships. Montana's teams won four Super Bowls; Brady's won five, Bradshaw's won four, Starr's won five NFL championships (including two Super Bowl wins). Rodgers has just one Super Bowl win, so people conclude he isn't as good as the others. (Even though his stats say otherwise.)

It's not like Joe Montana went out and drafted Ronnie Lott, or Jerry Rice, or his multiple Pro Bowl offensive linemen. Nor did Terry Bradshaw draft the Steel Curtain defense or the various Hall of Fame teammates he had on offense. Montana, Brady, Bradshaw, and Starr happened to be on much better football teams than any team Rodgers has been a part of. That doesn't make those guys better quarterbacks than Rodgers--it just means they got luckier.

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Re: Top 10 Hated Players of all time by Bills fans

You can toss around all of the stats you want, they are irrelevant, especially when trying to compare completely different generations. I'm not a Bart Starr fan myself (or Favre either, really) but IMO you'd be hard-pressed to find a Packer fan that has Rodgers rated as the best QB in their history (unless he is the only QB they've ever known) and it's probably a pretty healthy discussion whether he is Top 2 with many of them.

He's right. Bart Starr was not a great QB (neither was Jack Kemp). Favre was, but Rodgers is the best QB in Packers history. Unless you're a Lynn Dickey or John Hadl fan.

Here you go: http://www.espn.com/sportsnation/sto...ackers-history

[CommissarSpartacus]

Re: Top 10 Hated Players of all time by Bills fans

Bart Starr was not only the best qb the Packers ever had, he's a serious contender for best NFL qb ever.

I've been watching NFL football since 1959 and watched the AFL during its run, and Bart Starr, IMO, played the position the best.

Tom Brady is the only guy who comes close.

Other guys have stats and rings and were, and are great in their own right, but Starr is still the best.

[swiper]

Re: Top 10 Hated Players of all time by Bills fans

Bart Starr was not only the best qb the Packers ever had, he's a serious contender for best NFL qb ever.

I've been watching NFL football since 1959 and watched the AFL during its run, and Bart Starr, IMO, played the position the best.

Tom Brady is the only guy who comes close.

Other guys have stats and rings and were, and are great in their own right, but Starr is still the best.

You don't know what you are watching since 1959.

Bart Starr was not as good as Joe Montana, Roger Staubach, Brett Favre, Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady right off the top of my head. Crawl back under your rock.

[Arm of Harm]

Re: Top 10 Hated Players of all time by Bills fans

Bart Starr was not only the best qb the Packers ever had, he's a serious contender for best NFL qb ever.

I've been watching NFL football since 1959 and watched the AFL during its run, and Bart Starr, IMO, played the position the best.

Tom Brady is the only guy who comes close.

Other guys have stats and rings and were, and are great in their own right, but Starr is still the best.

There will be times when I'll watch the same movie as a middle aged adult that I watched as a kid, or as a teenager. Normally I find that I'm much less easily impressed as an adult. And not just with movies: but with books, and almost anything else where you can draw a fair, 1:1 comparison to what I saw as a kid or as a teen.

You watched Bart Starr at a young age; and it's quite possible you were more easily impressed then, than you are now.

CJ Spiller had that one season in which he averaged an astonishing 6.0 yards per carry. But, as good as that average was, it was a little inflated by the fact that the Bills had a pass-oriented offense that season. That helped boost Spiller's per-carry stats. Achieving that same yards per carry in a run-oriented offense would have been a significantly greater accomplishment. (Not that there was anything wrong with what Spiller did do that season.)

The best running back in NFL history needs to be a guy who operated in a run-oriented offense. Not a guy who CJ Spillered his way to a shiny per-carry average in a pass-oriented offense. Likewise, the best QB in NFL history needs to be a guy who carried the offense on his back, in a pass-oriented offense. Not just a guy who Matt Schaubed his way to a shiny yards per pass attempt in a run-oriented offense. (Matt Schaub's career yards per pass attempt is higher than Tom Brady's; largely because Schaub had the luxury of operating in a run-oriented offense.)

Aaron Rodgers' yards per pass attempt is higher than Schaub's, or Brady's, or Starr's, or Montana's. Even though a run-oriented offense tends to boost a QB's yards per pass attempt--thereby helping Schaub and Starr--Rodgers comes out ahead of Starr even so. You look at almost any stat of Rodgers', and it's going to be jaw-droppingly good. Any time a QB puts up the kind of insanely good numbers we're seeing from Rodgers, it's worth sitting up and taking notice. And, at least when I've seen him play, his success came despite woefully inadequate pass protection from his OL, despite a moribund running game, and despite some key drops by his receivers. His stats may actually be understating his level of play.

[Night Train]

Re: Top 10 Hated Players of all time by Bills fans

Don't forget Miami G Bob Kuechenberg.

After the 1980 game when the Bills broke the Miami losing streak (dating back to 1969 ), he stated that game was the lowest point of his career..since the Bills were the worst team in football.

Bills were 11-5 that year and won the division. F U Bob and loved watching the HOF pass him over year after year..which hurt him personally.

Karma.

[feldspar]

Re: Top 10 Hated Players of all time by Bills fans

There will be times when I'll watch the same movie as a middle aged adult that I watched as a kid, or as a teenager. Normally I find that I'm much less easily impressed as an adult. And not just with movies: but with books, and almost anything else where you can draw a fair, 1:1 comparison to what I saw as a kid or as a teen.

You watched Bart Starr at a young age; and it's quite possible you were more easily impressed then, than you are now.

CJ Spiller had that one season in which he averaged an astonishing 6.0 yards per carry. But, as good as that average was, it was a little inflated by the fact that the Bills had a pass-oriented offense that season. That helped boost Spiller's per-carry stats. Achieving that same yards per carry in a run-oriented offense would have been a significantly greater accomplishment. (Not that there was anything wrong with what Spiller did do that season.)

The best running back in NFL history needs to be a guy who operated in a run-oriented offense. Not a guy who CJ Spillered his way to a shiny per-carry average in a pass-oriented offense. Likewise, the best QB in NFL history needs to be a guy who carried the offense on his back, in a pass-oriented offense. Not just a guy who Matt Schaubed his way to a shiny yards per pass attempt in a run-oriented offense. (Matt Schaub's career yards per pass attempt is higher than Tom Brady's; largely because Schaub had the luxury of operating in a run-oriented offense.)

Aaron Rodgers' yards per pass attempt is higher than Schaub's, or Brady's, or Starr's, or Montana's. Even though a run-oriented offense tends to boost a QB's yards per pass attempt--thereby helping Schaub and Starr--Rodgers comes out ahead of Starr even so. You look at almost any stat of Rodgers', and it's going to be jaw-droppingly good. Any time a QB puts up the kind of insanely good numbers we're seeing from Rodgers, it's worth sitting up and taking notice. And, at least when I've seen him play, his success came despite woefully inadequate pass protection from his OL, despite a moribund running game, and despite some key drops by his receivers. His stats may actually be understating his level of play.

Stop with your stats.

[stuckincincy]

Re: Top 10 Hated Players of all time by Bills fans

Stop with your stats.

You blaspheme.

Stats are the lifeblood of sports sites.

[bleve]

Re: Top 10 Hated Players of all time by Bills fans

Bart Starr was not only the best qb the Packers ever had, he's a serious contender for best NFL qb ever.

I've been watching NFL football since 1959 and watched the AFL during its run, and Bart Starr, IMO, played the position the best.

Tom Brady is the only guy who comes close.

Other guys have stats and rings and were, and are great in their own right, but Starr is still the best.

That's a lot of years watching. If you come to the conclusion Starr was the best, you must have been napping when Unitas was playing.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Re: Top 10 Hated Players of all time by Bills fans

There will be times when I'll watch the same movie as a middle aged adult that I watched as a kid, or as a teenager. Normally I find that I'm much less easily impressed as an adult. And not just with movies: but with books, and almost anything else where you can draw a fair, 1:1 comparison to what I saw as a kid or as a teen.

You watched Bart Starr at a young age; and it's quite possible you were more easily impressed then, than you are now.

CJ Spiller...

Anyone that compares Bart Starr IN ANY WAY to CJ Spiller is demented.

That being said...

http://www.salon.com/2001/12/06/starr_6/

THURSDAY, DEC 6, 2001 04:25 AM GMT

The greatest quarterback of all time

Overlooked by most polls, the best person to ever take a snap in the NFL is Bart Starr.

ALLEN BARRA

Last week I wrote that in the NFL, good passing beats good running, and I think I got a nasty e-mail from every reader who ever played high school football. Please, no more “My coach has 35 years’ worth of experience and he says …” e-mails! I know what your coach said; that’s why he’s still a high school coach.

And, please, no more with “Your theory …” What I’ve done is taken 40 years of accumulated football wisdom and tried to cull some lessons from it. So, I’m pleased to see I have a lot of readers. And I’m sure to get a lot more nasty e-mails when I weigh in on the oldest of pro football debates: Who is the best quarterback of all time?

Depends. Are you talking best athlete, most potential, most career value? I’m never sure what someone else is asking, but I know what I want. For instance, is the “best” quarterback the one you want playing for*your*team in the big game? If it is, then the end-of-century polls have got it all wrong: The best quarterback in pro football history isn’t Joe Montana or Johnny Unitas or Otto Graham or Dan Marino or John Elway. If by best you mean most likely to win championships, then the man you want in back of your center is Bart Starr.

Why do I have to go back 30-some years to pick my best quarterback? Well, for starters, it’s the last time in football when they were full, complete players, as God and Vince Lombardi intended them to be. Unlike the generation that followed, ’60s quarterbacks weren’t automatons, mere “snap-takers” acting out the orders of sideline brain trusts. Quarterbacks were expected to help conceive and carry out game plans, and call their own plays. Bart Starr did this better than any quarterback he played against and perhaps better than anyone ever. Starting with the last four games of the 1959 season through a handful of injury-riddled appearances in 1969, Starr posted a standard of clutch performances in big games unmatched in NFL history.

...more...

[CommissarSpartacus]

Re: Top 10 Hated Players of all time by Bills fans

That's a lot of years watching. If you come to the conclusion Starr was the best, you must have been napping when Unitas was playing.

Or, if you think Unitas was the best, a head injury must have prevented you from watching Otto Graham.

Like I said, there are lots of guys that were great in their own right, but if you wanted a winner, that was Bart Starr.