Page 1 of 6 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 110

Thread: A first round qb shouldnt be a game manager

  1. #1
    Registered User yordad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    In a WNY bar
    Posts
    11,612
    Thanks
    200
    Thanked 405 Times in 231 Posts
    Power to Give Rep
    41

    A first round qb shouldnt be a game manager

    Why do I keep hearing this BS comment. Well, I'd like to take a look at another current QB who is a future hall of Famer. I'm not talking about a different era. Dude, although currently injured, has been a perennial super bowl contender for most of this century. Not only that, he was one of John Allen's top comparisons coming out. Everyone please take a look at the game stats for ben Roethlisberger's first 3 to 5 years in the league. He was a game manager. And went on to win superbowls and will one day make the hall of fame. In his third year he had 3513 years, 18int and 23 tds. Year 2, he only had 2385 yards.

    If he has a Big Ben career, I will be happy as hell.

    Thoughts? More in depth comparison? Better comparisons?
    "Heck, now I am glad his overrated arce made the pro bowl, else we would have only got a 3rd." ~ yordad

    "I've just been hit with a piece of sky. " ~ yordad

    "Forgive my opinion, but...." ~ yordad

    "Warning: I might be hammered." ~ yordad

    "I don't care if the word is "your" or "you're", so buzz off. Its (it's) a frickin(') message board." ~ yordad

  2. Post thanked by:

    Cntrygal (11-12-2019),Kenny (11-12-2019),Novacane (11-12-2019)

  3. #2
    Registered User Kenny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    1,607
    Thanks
    262
    Thanked 358 Times in 238 Posts
    Power to Give Rep
    19

    Re: A first round qb shouldnt be a game manager

    You know... I'll give you this one. Never thought of it this way!
    I dont remember watching much of Ben's games, but statistically they're not too different. You cherry picked a bit with year 3 as that was Ben's worst season by far, and the first two seasons were a bit better than Josh (TD/INT ratio and Completion %), but overall... not a bad comparison.

  4. Post thanked by:

    Cntrygal (11-12-2019)

  5. #3
    Registered User The Jokeman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Buffalo, NY
    Posts
    9,787
    Thanks
    131
    Thanked 2,031 Times in 1,419 Posts
    Power to Give Rep
    39

    Re: A first round qb shouldnt be a game manager

    Quote Originally Posted by yordad View Post
    Why do I keep hearing this BS comment. Well, I'd like to take a look at another current QB who is a future hall of Famer. I'm not talking about a different era. Dude, although currently injured, has been a perennial super bowl contender for most of this century. Not only that, he was one of John Allen's top comparisons coming out. Everyone please take a look at the game stats for ben Roethlisberger's first 3 to 5 years in the league. He was a game manager. And went on to win superbowls and will one day make the hall of fame. In his third year he had 3513 years, 18int and 23 tds. Year 2, he only had 2385 yards.

    If he has a Big Ben career, I will be happy as hell.

    Thoughts? More in depth comparison? Better comparisons?
    Trent Dilfer was a game manager in Baltimore and he was a 1st Rounder just FYI. In terms of Josh and the BIG Ben comparison, it was many made when he came out and the same with Cam Newton who wasn't great his first few years, granted he had better passing yardage numbers but completion percentage/TD:INT ratio not great. I get people are upset with Josh but think it's being over played because of a guy like Mahomes has set unrealistic expectations for a young QB. That said Josh has improved this year from last year and would I want him to be better? Sure but I'm also not going to say he's as bad as some have made him out here.

  6. Post thanked by:

    Cntrygal (11-12-2019),The last buffalo fan (11-13-2019)

  7. #4
    Registered User sahlensguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    6,833
    Thanks
    2,872
    Thanked 3,039 Times in 2,150 Posts
    Power to Give Rep
    19

    Re: A first round qb shouldnt be a game manager

    A successful QB plays to his strength. If Josh's strength is a game managing QB, constructing an offense around that skill will ensure the highest probability of success. If he sucks at it and/or the rest of the team isnt built for it and we still go to that type of game plan, well...then we're ****ed.
    Last edited by sahlensguy; 11-12-2019 at 11:31 AM.

  8. #5
    Registered User Forward_Lateral's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Sitting on a toilet tank near you.
    Posts
    25,066
    Thanks
    43
    Thanked 4,168 Times in 2,104 Posts
    Power to Give Rep
    100

    Re: A first round qb shouldnt be a game manager

    The problem everyone has is lack of patience.

  9. Post thanked by:

    Buffalogic (11-12-2019),k-oneputt (11-17-2019),yordad (11-12-2019)

  10. #6
    Registered User sahlensguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    6,833
    Thanks
    2,872
    Thanked 3,039 Times in 2,150 Posts
    Power to Give Rep
    19

    Re: A first round qb shouldnt be a game manager

    Quote Originally Posted by Forward_Lateral View Post
    The problem everyone has is lack of patience.
    Time waits for no one.

  11. #7
    Registered User Forward_Lateral's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Sitting on a toilet tank near you.
    Posts
    25,066
    Thanks
    43
    Thanked 4,168 Times in 2,104 Posts
    Power to Give Rep
    100

    Re: A first round qb shouldnt be a game manager

    Quote Originally Posted by sahlensguy View Post
    Time waits for no one.
    Before the season, and before the team started 6-2, most of us realized that this would be another learning/rebuilding year. We expected to see improvement from Josh. We have. Right now he's kind of stalled in that department, but there is no question he is better than he was last year. The coaching staff needs to make a decision as to what they want from Josh. In my opinion, if they want him to start improving again, they need to give him freedom. You are taking away everything that lead you to drafting him. Game managing is fine when you are winning and beating inferior teams. That isn't going to cut it vs teams like Baltimore, Dallas, New England. To win those games, you are going to have to let Josh be Josh.

  12. Post thanked by:

    Cntrygal (11-12-2019),The last buffalo fan (11-13-2019)

  13. #8
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    55
    Thanks
    27
    Thanked 36 Times in 23 Posts
    Power to Give Rep
    0

    Re: A first round qb shouldnt be a game manager

    Quote Originally Posted by The Jokeman View Post
    Trent Dilfer was a game manager in Baltimore and he was a 1st Rounder just FYI. In terms of Josh and the BIG Ben comparison, it was many made when he came out and the same with Cam Newton who wasn't great his first few years, granted he had better passing yardage numbers but completion percentage/TD:INT ratio not great. I get people are upset with Josh but think it's being over played because of a guy like Mahomes has set unrealistic expectations for a young QB. That said Josh has improved this year from last year and would I want him to be better? Sure but I'm also not going to say he's as bad as some have made him out here.
    Trent Dilfer wasn't drafted by Baltimore, he was drafted by Tampa Bay...

  14. #9
    Rumblin' Stumblin' Bumblin' Buffalogic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    4,553
    Thanks
    1,023
    Thanked 1,412 Times in 792 Posts
    Power to Give Rep
    24

    Re: A first round qb shouldnt be a game manager

    Lots of qbs who went on to win super bowls were average to horrible in their first few years. When a qb goes on to have a great career, nobody picks on their inadequacies from stretches in their early years. The Josh Allen hate is so stupid. He hit deep balls last year. He will hit them again. He also could use a great receiver, a run after catch play maker would be great. Amari Cooper next year possibly.

    Roethlisburger had hines ward and randle el playing great and he was still mediocre early on. Manning had Marvin Harrison. We don't have a guy like that yet.

  15. Post thanked by:

    Cntrygal (11-12-2019),Novacane (11-12-2019),The last buffalo fan (11-13-2019)

  16. #10
    Registered User justasportsfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Bundoks
    Posts
    60,101
    Thanks
    2,378
    Thanked 7,716 Times in 4,481 Posts
    Power to Give Rep
    229

    Re: A first round qb shouldnt be a game manager

    41 ATT vs. the browns is hardly a game manager. They allowed him to throw. He was allowed to use this game to develop his passing. Whether or not he failed due to coaching is something that is yet to be determined. He sure apologized a lot about his decisions during the presser.

  17. Post thanked by:

    The last buffalo fan (11-13-2019)

  18. #11
    Registered User kishoph's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    buffalo,n.y.
    Posts
    3,143
    Thanks
    2,546
    Thanked 1,801 Times in 1,007 Posts
    Power to Give Rep
    23

    Re: A first round qb shouldnt be a game manager

    Quote Originally Posted by Buffalogic View Post
    He hit deep balls last year. He will hit them again. He also could use a great receiver, a run after catch play maker would be great. Amari Cooper next year possibly.
    "Deep ball" maybe, not balls. He had one to Foster, that was a nice throw, another long one was to Zay Jones that was severely underthrown and Jones made a nice play coming back to get it. That pass should of been an easy 7 as Jones was 5-10 yards in past every defender, but Allen held the ball waiting for what ?
    Allen had one of the worst completion percentages for passes thrown over 21 yds in the air completing just 13 of 50 attempts, ranking 31st out of 35 QB that had at least 20 attempts of 21 yds. +

    This season out of 34 QB's that have started at least 4 games Josh Allen is last for longest completed pass (air yards) at 42.5 yds.

    It's not nothing new either with Allen, his longest completion in college went for 52 yards, that's not just air yards. People fell in love with Allen's arm strength, but it means nothing without the accuracy to complete passes.

    Call me a hater, but Allen has not impressed me, other than having a strong arm and being able to run (when he doesn't fumble), I do not see a "franchise QB".

  19. Post thanked by:

    sahlensguy (11-12-2019)

  20. #12
    Registered User sahlensguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    6,833
    Thanks
    2,872
    Thanked 3,039 Times in 2,150 Posts
    Power to Give Rep
    19

    Re: A first round qb shouldnt be a game manager

    Quote Originally Posted by Forward_Lateral View Post
    Before the season, and before the team started 6-2, most of us realized that this would be another learning/rebuilding year. We expected to see improvement from Josh. We have. Right now he's kind of stalled in that department, but there is no question he is better than he was last year. The coaching staff needs to make a decision as to what they want from Josh. In my opinion, if they want him to start improving again, they need to give him freedom. You are taking away everything that lead you to drafting him. Game managing is fine when you are winning and beating inferior teams. That isn't going to cut it vs teams like Baltimore, Dallas, New England. To win those games, you are going to have to let Josh be Josh.
    To an extent they are letting "Josh be Josh" and I agree he needs free reign to an extent. After all he is 2nd in the league with 67 rushing attempts. While that is letting Josh be Josh, it's also putting him in harm's way.

    Josh's greatest attribute so far is how much of a gamer he is. His 4th quarters are what gives everyone hope of what he can be on a consistent basis. To do that the staff must tap into what makes him go when the game is on the line, and giving him freedom is a big part of that, while not getting him killed.

    We've had the discussion through the years here about the importance of letting a young QB take chances downfield with the possibility of ints. This staff seems to have him weary of throwing to where he can be picked off if the ball is not right on the money. This won't pay off for his development.

    Yes. Let Josh be Josh, but only to a point.

  21. Post thanked by:

    The last buffalo fan (11-13-2019)

  22. #13
    Registered User Kenny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    1,607
    Thanks
    262
    Thanked 358 Times in 238 Posts
    Power to Give Rep
    19

    Re: A first round qb shouldnt be a game manager

    Quote Originally Posted by Buffalogic View Post
    He also could use a great receiver, a run after catch play maker would be great. Amari Cooper next year possibly.
    Not sure what this would accomplish. YAC for a WR typically is a result with hitting him in stride. Until Josh learns how to throw an accurate / timed pass, another WR isnt going to do squat. I'm still buying into the hype and the potential factor, at least for now. But hoping he shows real improvement by the end of the year. I mean, moving from 50% completion to 59% completion is great and all, but hoping for more given where he was taken and what we gave up to get him.

  23. #14
    Registered User The Jokeman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Buffalo, NY
    Posts
    9,787
    Thanks
    131
    Thanked 2,031 Times in 1,419 Posts
    Power to Give Rep
    39

    Re: A first round qb shouldnt be a game manager

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny View Post
    Not sure what this would accomplish. YAC for a WR typically is a result with hitting him in stride. Until Josh learns how to throw an accurate / timed pass, another WR isnt going to do squat. I'm still buying into the hype and the potential factor, at least for now. But hoping he shows real improvement by the end of the year. I mean, moving from 50% completion to 59% completion is great and all, but hoping for more given where he was taken and what we gave up to get him.
    He'll likely never learn to throw timed passes because of his arm/speed at which the ball gets there he never learned and honestly to try and teach it now damned near impossible. That said he has shown some improvement in his game from last year and if he continues the next few years and guys around him get better (see Knox) or more used to him (see Brown or Beasley) Josh in turn will be better. He might never be a Drew Brees when it comes to accuracy but think he is a starting QB in this league.

  24. Post thanked by:

    The last buffalo fan (11-13-2019)

  25. #15
    Rumblin' Stumblin' Bumblin' Buffalogic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    4,553
    Thanks
    1,023
    Thanked 1,412 Times in 792 Posts
    Power to Give Rep
    24

    Re: A first round qb shouldnt be a game manager

    His completion percentage is up and he's throwing less interceptions now. It's a progression and he's making strides. There's no magic tonic that is going to solve all the problems at once. He just has to keep learning and getting experience. If he can, he will be a great qb. If he can't we will deal with that if/when it comes. He needs more time and some more talent on offense. This offense will look different personnel wise next year, I'm sure of that. We will see what he does with the upgrades.

  26. Post thanked by:

    The last buffalo fan (11-13-2019)

  27. #16
    Registered User Forward_Lateral's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Sitting on a toilet tank near you.
    Posts
    25,066
    Thanks
    43
    Thanked 4,168 Times in 2,104 Posts
    Power to Give Rep
    100

    Re: A first round qb shouldnt be a game manager

    Quote Originally Posted by sahlensguy View Post
    To an extent they are letting "Josh be Josh" and I agree he needs free reign to an extent. After all he is 2nd in the league with 67 rushing attempts. While that is letting Josh be Josh, it's also putting him in harm's way.

    Josh's greatest attribute so far is how much of a gamer he is. His 4th quarters are what gives everyone hope of what he can be on a consistent basis. To do that the staff must tap into what makes him go when the game is on the line, and giving him freedom is a big part of that, while not getting him killed.

    We've had the discussion through the years here about the importance of letting a young QB take chances downfield with the possibility of ints. This staff seems to have him weary of throwing to where he can be picked off if the ball is not right on the money. This won't pay off for his development.

    Yes. Let Josh be Josh, but only to a point.
    They need to do a better job of putting him into a position to succeed. Run more no huddle. Run plays that exploit his strengths, not his weaknesses. Run the freaking ball more. Stop dropping him back 30-40 times a game.

    There are so many things they could be doing to help him, but for some reason refuse to do.

  28. Post thanked by:

    Cntrygal (11-12-2019),DraftBoy (11-13-2019),The last buffalo fan (11-13-2019)

  29. #17
    Registered User Kenny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    1,607
    Thanks
    262
    Thanked 358 Times in 238 Posts
    Power to Give Rep
    19

    Re: A first round qb shouldnt be a game manager

    Quote Originally Posted by Forward_Lateral View Post
    They need to do a better job of putting him into a position to succeed. Run more no huddle. Run plays that exploit his strengths, not his weaknesses. Run the freaking ball more. Stop dropping him back 30-40 times a game.

    There are so many things they could be doing to help him, but for some reason refuse to do.
    Not sure what his strengths are at this point though. Unless we're going to take the Baltimore/Lamar approach of one read and if it's not there run, the only other option is the just run the ball 40 times a game.

  30. #18
    Registered User sahlensguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    6,833
    Thanks
    2,872
    Thanked 3,039 Times in 2,150 Posts
    Power to Give Rep
    19

    Re: A first round qb shouldnt be a game manager

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny View Post
    Not sure what his strengths are at this point though. Unless we're going to take the Baltimore/Lamar approach of one read and if it's not there run, the only other option is the just run the ball 40 times a game.
    That's the issue. His skill as a QB is marginal, so far at this level and at Wyoming. He can run and he can throw the ball through a blizzard. He's a gamer for sure and like last year can make a few things happen by running around without really knowing what's going on but that only gets you so far without the talent. Hoping he figures it out...
    Last edited by sahlensguy; 11-12-2019 at 04:13 PM.

  31. #19
    Registered User Forward_Lateral's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Sitting on a toilet tank near you.
    Posts
    25,066
    Thanks
    43
    Thanked 4,168 Times in 2,104 Posts
    Power to Give Rep
    100

    Re: A first round qb shouldnt be a game manager

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny View Post
    Not sure what his strengths are at this point though. Unless we're going to take the Baltimore/Lamar approach of one read and if it's not there run, the only other option is the just run the ball 40 times a game.
    His strength isn't dropping back 40 times, that's for sure.

  32. #20
    Registered User sukie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    9,998
    Thanks
    2,243
    Thanked 4,045 Times in 2,494 Posts
    Power to Give Rep
    28

    Re: A first round qb shouldnt be a game manager

    Quote Originally Posted by Forward_Lateral View Post
    His strength isn't dropping back 40 times, that's for sure.
    Would be if he had open WRs. OCs can provide that. We see it week in week out in the wrong colored unis.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •