So would everyone if they were being truly honest. And it's a "Daily Double" as they'd take him as both HC and OC.Originally Posted by DetoxTent
So would everyone if they were being truly honest. And it's a "Daily Double" as they'd take him as both HC and OC.
Correct. Daboll, Dorsey and Brady all have one thing in common outside of the obvious…none of them threw even one of the dozens of picks thrown during their tenure. League leading picks. That’s not even counting the fumbles they never lost.
Josh is terrific and he’s our guy. He also makes far too many stupid avoidable mistakes.
Yes and everyone around him is perfect. Those 4 passes dropped (none for Mahomes) were all his fault. So too was Bass' missed 44-yard FG to tie the game. And that fake punt was a really great coaching decision.
None of that explains Josh’s league-worst turnovers.
Josh didn’t lead the league in either TOs , interceptions or fumbles.
Jesus. Why do you feel the need to misrepresent what I write???
I NEVER, EVER said that "Josh messes up the most on the offense" Just stop with the dishonesty. Obviously you do not read what I actually write nor even attempt to comprehend. :SIGH: I'm not your daddy that has to take you by the hand because you refuse to listen.
Once again, you obviously you did not read the link I provided...
Donovan McNabb; a Defense of an Unappreciated HOFer and the Greatest Eagles QB Ever
Sorry, but you crapping on McNabb just to make a lame point about Andy Reid being sooooooooooo great is downright silly. He is an excellent head coach....mostly with Patrick Mahomes as his QB.Lot’s to talk about, but I’m going to limit today’s post to Donovan McNabb. Given his “retirement” and the fact that others are running McNabb columns today, I figured the time was right to finally put my thoughts about McNabb into post form. As I’ve alluded to before, I believe McNabb is the greatest Eagles QB ever AND a Hall of Fame caliber player.
As usual, I will not be rehashing all the draft-day stuff or the TO event, you can go elsewhere for that. Here, I’ll just give you what I believe is often missing from McNabb discussions: CONTEXT. I have much more to say about all the external crap, but I’m already at 1500+ words, so that’ll have to wait.
The Stats
Given all the noise and drama surrounding McNabb’s career with the Eagles, it’s almost understandable that many commentators/fans don’t fully appreciate how good #5 was. Here are some major statistics, followed by the comparable numbers for other QBs. Again, just trying to provide objective context.
– Career Record (regular season): 92-49-1, .647 win percentage
P. Manning with the Colts – .688 win percentage
B. Favre with the Packers – .632 win percentage
J. Elway with the Broncos – .641 win percentage
– Passer Rating with the Eagles: 86.5
D. Marino – 86.4
B. Favre with GB – 85.8
J. Kelly – 84.4
T. Aikman – 81.6
– 9 Playoff Wins
P. Manning – 9
J. Kelly – 9
D. Marino – 8
– 2.16 TD/Int Ratio with the Eagles
P. Manning – 2.08
D. Brees – 1.96
J. Montana – 1.71
D. Marino – 1.66
Donovan McNabb’s career with the Eagles was among the best QB/Team runs of ALL-TIME. Look at the names above and how McNabb with the Eagles compares. My guess is that, if asked, most fans wouldn’t place #5’s run in this company. However, it EASILY belongs, and in some cases exceeds the statistical greatness of some legendary players.
More...
The FACT is that great QB's are what make great coaches. The examples are undeniable in the history of the NFL.
It is at the very least a symbiotic relationship. Each needs each other to realize true greatness.
There have been only 33 different head coaches in the NFL to win a Super Bowl. Only 14 have won multiple times. Nine of those have won 2. Only FIVE have won more than two Super Bowls.
Only ONE of those has won with two different QB's. The great Joe Gibbs. Who won each SB of his three with a different QB. Two of which were Tier 2 or lower. Joe Theisman (1982), Doug Williams (1987) & Mark Rypien (1991).
Not surprisingly these were all before the NFL instituted a cap system (1994), and the rules for the game were much different than today.
The other four HC to win multiple Super Bowls all did so with some of the best QB's to pay the game....most of them coached for over 20 years.
Bill Belichick - 24 years HC - 6 SB wins - ALL with Tom Brady....no Brady, no SB wins.
Chuck Noll - 23 years HC - 4 SB wins - ALL with Terry Bradshaw - no Bradshaw, no SB wins
Bill Walsh - 10 years HC - 3 SB wins - ALL with Joe Montana - no Montana - no SB wins
Andy Reid - 26 years HC - 3 SB wins - ALL with Patrick Mahomes - no Mahomes, no SB wins.
Sensing a pattern here???? You will if you open you eyes and face cold, hard reality.
The HC to win 2 SB's pretty much follow the exact same pattern. When they have an elite (or well above average) QB, they win SB's. When they don't, they don't win SB's.
Vince Lombardi - 9 years HC - 2 SB wins - both with Bart Starr - no Starr, no SB wins
Tom Flores - 12 years HC - 2 SB wins - both with Jim Plunkett - no Plunkett, no SB wins
Jimmy Johnson - 9 years HC - 2 SB wins - both with Troy Aikman - no Aikman, no SB wins
George Seifert - 14 years HC - 2 SB wins - 2 SB wins - one with Joe Montana, one with Steve Young - no Montana or Young, no SB wins
Mike Shanahan - 20 years HC - 2 SB wins - both with John Elway - no Elway, no SB wins
Tom Couglin - 21 years HC- 2 SB wins - both with Eli Manning - no Manning no SB wins
Bill Parcells 21 years HC - 2 SB wins - both with Phil Simms* - no Simms no SB wins (*Jeff Hosteller replaced Phil Simms late that season - but Sims got them there - pre cap...Parcells is the closest to Joe Gibbs...again, both excelled before the cap system)
Don Shula - 33 years HC- 2 SB wins - both with Bob Griese - no Griese no SB wins
Tom Landry - 29 years HC - 2 SB wins - both with Roger Staubach - no Staubach no SB wins
We have gone round and round with this in this thread. You want to ignore the facts, that's your business. Josh Allen has not yet risen to, as Kurt Warner puts it...
“It’s impossible to play perfect games, and Josh played an incredible game—until the end. In the end, he took some chances that wouldn’t have been what I would have done. But he chose to make those throws, and if you choose those throws, you’ve got to make ‘em. That’s part of being great. Brady, Montana, Mahomes—they have careers of making the plays in the absolute crucial times of the game. Now they’re on the Mount Rushmore of NFL quarterbacks.”
Amazingly, I am the one being accused of "homerism"?!?!? Christ. How absurd.
Sorry, but to ignore the facts smacks of a (slight) case of "homerism". My eyes are wide open.
Anyway...as I said in the other thread....
Both areas of deficiency can be (are) true at the same time, they are not mutually exclusive. The QBs decisions/mistakes as we all know carry far greater weight in the outcomes of games than any other position.
Josh needs to be better for the team. Don’t take my word for it…he himself acknowledges his stupid decisions time and time again. The only problem is his propensity to reoffend after his contrition.
You are correct. He did however lead the NFL in total offense and TDs. This despite changing OC's mid-stream.
McNabb was a good but not great QB. Maybe tier 2 is correct. But he won't make the HOF. It's not "crapping" on him to say that he wasn't elite.
And yes, successful coaches need good players. I've never said otherwise. But just like there are different levels of QBs, there are different levels of coaches.
I'll ask again: between Reid and Spags and McD and Dorsey, who would you rather have as coaches? If you say anything other than the former, you're either lying or a Bills homer.
BTW, in the other thread you talked about the "institutional success" of the Packers because they had their draft picks sit for a few years behind their great QBs. I still say it's luck but assuming they have the formula, tell me what great or even good QB Josh sat behind anytime in his career, much less as a rookie?
Josh also is the first one to take the blame for everything wrong with the offense. I have yet to hear him blame a teammate for any mistake. I mean, did you hear him call out the dropped passes, missed FG or Dawkins letting Jones affect his throw on the pass to Shakir? You guys harp on that "missed" pass to Diggs at the end of the game, do you think any of those things affected the outcome?
Mace (03-30-2024)
Josh can only control one person, himself, therefore he’d be wasting his time worrying about the deficiencies of everyone else.
Of course mistakes made by people other than Josh have cost the team. That doesn’t excuse Josh’ repeated stupid/avoidable/unforced mistakes that have cost the team.
It doesn't excuse mistakes he makes, but to say that others' mistakes don't cost the teams wins is flat-out wrong. He's one player out of 11 on offense, and that doesn't even take into account the coaches. For every mistake he makes in a game, there are probably 10 mistakes by his teammates and several by the coaching staff. There's a reason why QB is the toughest position in all of sports to play and why people talk about the Bills wasting Josh's prime.
Mace (03-30-2024)
You must be speaking in general and not me specifically? Because I personally have never singled the guy out as the only one to make mistakes.
And tbh not sure exactly who would argue the fact that there are plenty of mistakes to go around outside of Josh…noone would argue that.
Like I already said (twice, once this thread, and another)..."It's been fun bantering with you Gooby, but we are both dug into our positions and the evidence, facts and plain common sense favor mine (which is why I embraced it in the first place) your continuing misrepresentation of what I have actually written which describes the basis my position is annoying and tiresome."
I will add that the facts about HC-QB combinations, especially in the post-cap era and the era of rule changes to supercharge offenses and QB's (considering the number of years the HC's have been HC's....for example, Reid's 26 years HC has won 3 SB's only with Mahomes who was starting QB under him for 6 years) ) that have won multiple Super Bowls prove that the quality of the QB is more critical than the quality of the HC.
The Bills are at a disadvantage since the second GOAT to come along in the past two decades requires Josh Allen to rise to "the Mount Rushmore of QB's". He has not done that...yet.
I believe he will.
Back to the issue at hand. This was pretty funny today and (as usual) wrecks Opi's lame THE SKY IS FALLING baloney because the Bills "lost" some "starters".
2024 NFL Free Agency: 10 Most Likely Busts…
2. Gabe Davis, WR, Jacksonville Jaguars
The free-agent addition of Davis might have looked better had the Jaguars re-signed Calvin Ridley, but even then they would have paid too much for a player because of a specific need. Davis is a terrific blocker with big-game ability, evident by his four touchdowns against the Chiefs in the postseason a few years back. But he’s had too many quiet games with the Buffalo Bills, which didn’t stick out as much because he still contributed as a blocker.
Now with Ridley gone, Davis can’t afford to have quiet games, and will be counted on to be the team’s No. 2 target behind Christian Kirk (who isn’t a legitimate No. 1 wide receiver). Davis signed a three-year, $39 million contract to head south with the Jaguars. The Bills signed Curtis Samuel to a three-year, $24 million contract to replace Davis.
Sounds pretty spot on. Yeah....the Bills already have improved the WR position, (Samuel > Davis) and saved money, with the draft coming up that's RICH in extremely exciting WR prospects.
No, losing Mitch Morse is not going to make any substantial difference. Same with Floyd who slowed down considerably as the season progressed and especially when the Bills needed him the most, in the playoffs. The Bills already have more than capable replacements on the roster.
Tre' White was an emotional loss since he's been such a stalwart Bills defender. But face it...he's damaged goods, a shell of his prime years, and Douglas is a more than able ball-hawk replacement. The worst thing the Bills can do with an elite superstar QB's cap cost is waste money on aging vets who's best days are behind them.
The smart strategy is to move on before they are totally done, wasting precious cap dollars along the way.
In the meantime, Buffalo is sneakily adding players that are reasonably priced and can contribute from day one. Mike Edwards is a perfect example where he is extremely capable to improve the S position as Poyer is nearing the end of his career. The NFL has spoken in that hardly anyone thinks he's worth much more than vet minimum contract. 7+ vet minimum = $1.65M, Poyer signed with Miami for $1.95M.
So, to (once again) answer the question posed by this thread..."So where do we stand after today's bloodletting?"...I say in many ways better off and certainly much better off going forward.
NO ONE is saying that "other's mistakes don't cost the teams wins"
Making **** up is not welcome nor does it bolster your credibility.
We'll agree to disagree then. I am comfortable with my position that the Chefs have a far superior coaching staff, based on results that predate Mahomes and that between teams who are evenly matched personnel-wise, coaching will be the difference.
You (guys) are the one(s) harping on Josh "missing" Diggs on that play as the reason they lost. That's merely one play, where a better effort by Dawkins and it's a TD to Shakir. I'm saying that every member of the offense screws up at least as much as (and usually more than) Josh at all times of games.
Yep. We do have to "agree to disagree". I am comfortable with my position that the Chefs have a (not necessarily "far" but NO DOUBT a) superior QB, and not a "far superior" coaching staff.
NO. Once again, you are misrepresenting what I and others have said. Stop doing that!!!!!!You (guys) are the one(s) harping on Josh "missing" Diggs on that play as the reason they lost. That's merely one play, where a better effort by Dawkins and it's a TD to Shakir. I'm saying that every member of the offense screws up at least as much as (and usually more than) Josh at all times of games.
I and "you (guys)" are NOT "harping on Josh "missing" Diggs on that play as the reason they lost.", but rather accurately observing that Josh made a bad decision that prevented the team from PROBABLY winning the game, by taking advantage of the very favorable position they were in and making it much more likely to do so (win). That is a huge difference.
I (and a LOT of others, including Super Bowl champion QB, Super Bowl MVP , 2x NFL MVP, 2x First Team All-Pro QB, Kurt Warner) has observed that Josh has not necessarily shown the decision making ability, at the most crucial times, and "making the plays in the absolute crucial times of the game" like three QB's Brady, Montana and Mahomes have done that put them on the "Mount Rushmore of NFL quarterbacks".
As Peter King accurately observed....
You don't want to take off your homerism glasses to see that even IF Josh MAKES that TD pass to Shakir, he would have allowed the PERFECT opportunity for Mahomes to do what Mahomes has shown he can and HAS done repeatedly, and Josh has not learned yet.....smart situational football and making the smart decisions at the most crucial times of the game and "making the plays in the absolute crucial times of the game".To refresh: Buffalo, down 27-24, got the ball back at their 20-, with 8:23 left in the game. The Bills, after a huge miss on a Josh Allen-to-Stefon Diggs bomb (Diggs missed a very catchable ball) on first down, settled into a patient, clock-eating drive, seemingly trying to either tie it or win it and leave KC with very little time left. On seven of the 15 plays on the drive with the clock moving, Allen snapped the ball with an average of 5.1 seconds remaining on the play clock. Efficient, methodical.
So, Buffalo advanced to the Kansas City 26-, at the two-minute warning. Second-and-9. Two timeouts left per team. And here’s where the line of demarcation came. The Bills had to know they were either:
* One first down away from moving closer for a Tyler Bass field-goal try inside the 35-yard line that could have tied the game and sent it to overtime;
* Or one first down away from scoring a touchdown with very little time left, and leaving KC needing a touchdown, likely on a long field, to win. It was vital, with how great Patrick Mahomes is down the stretch and in the clutch, to give him next-to-no time to do that.
The Bills (AND. more importantly, Josh Allen...HE has the ball in HIS hands) had to know on any play that ended with the clock running, Kansas City would burn its second timeout, and then its third. So, the strategy for Buffalo was: under all circumstances, get a first down and keep the clock running. Allen—second-and-9, KC 26-, 2:00 left—surveyed the defense as he prepared to take the snap.
Second down: With a wide-open receiver running a crossing route at the KC 22- and an open receiver running an out-route at the 16-, Allen chose to try to hit Khalil Shakir in the back of the trafficky end zone. Overthrown.
Third down: Allen got chased out of the pocket to the right, and probably missed seeing two intermediate receivers shy of the first down to the left. He threw the ball away, deep.
Fourth down: Bass pushed a 44-yard field-goal attempt wide right. The Chiefs, never having to use one of their timeouts in the fourth quarter, won 27-24.
Yeah...make that TD Josh, and then GIVE THE ****ING BALL TO MAHOMES with close to two minutes left in the game with two timeouts...INSTEAD of making the smart play, with full awareness of the game situation and throw the ball to a WIDE OPEN Diggs.
The SMART mindset with two minutes to go, 2nd and nine at the Chiefs' 26 yard line down 3 points is NOT to throw a TD, but the GET A (better yet, two) FIRST DOWN!!!!! Run the clock. Force KC take their timeouts. Score the TD to go ahead by 4 and leave no time on the clock, or at the worst, kick an EASY time tying FG...again, with little time on the clock and KC with no timeouts.
THIS was the moment that Josh could have made it more likely to get on the "Mount Rushmore of NFL quarterbacks"...IF he made the SMART decision. Throwing the ball into the end zone (and worse yet, NOT completing it) was NOT the smart decision.
Josh's Missed Opportunity to be Great.jpg
And this....
“Sometimes,” Warner said, “you talk yourself into a play and say, ‘I’m gonna make this play, and this is the throw that’ll send us to the championship game,’ instead of saying, ‘I’m gonna let the defense dictate where I throw the ball.’ As a quarterback, you have to have the ability to balance those things.”
Allen is just six years into his career. He’s got much of his NFL life in front of him. He’s a smart guy. He’s one of the most talented quarterbacks ever to play in the NFL. He’s going to have plenty of chances to go deep into the playoffs, and to win a Super Bowl. But this is a crucial lesson he must learn, or he may never hold the Lombardi Trophy.
Josh said that milking the clock wasn't what they were thinking at that point. Who do you think that came from? The same person who called for the fake punt.
These (including 13 seconds which can in no way, shape or form be conveniently blamed on Josh) are all coaching decisions that separate good coaches from championship-winning ones. And again you will find no one except for Bills homers who wouldn't take Reid and Spags over McD and Brady. And why if the Bills don't make the AFCCG at least this year, McD needs to go.
And it's interesting you keep bringing-up Warner. He led one of the greatest offenses in NFL history and it got shut down by a better DC in Belicheat. And then later Brady's great offense was shut down by Spags' defense. Coaching is huge.
Mace (03-30-2024)
Tired of endless arguments, entirely agree with where Gooby is coming from. 7 years in this jusnt happy happy joy joy and it needs a critical look, which doesn't make you less a fan.
Goobylal (03-30-2024)
It also doesn't explain why you left out the td #s as the highest.
As much as we hate Notacon you sound just like it/her/him/she.
You pick out the worst stat and in the context of his best stat.
What is better? No INT's and no TD's?
Think man.
Hated by the stupid..
Loved by their moms.
Not only that, but Josh didn't lead the league in INTs, fumbles/lost or total turnovers.
So, when players or coaches say something you don't like, the reaction form a LOT of posters is "they're just saying that'.
Whatever.
The fact is that Josh had the ball in his hands and he ultimately decides where it goes. I suspect with the encouragement for McD to 'let Josh be Josh', we will never know exactly who was not thinking about milking the clock at that point. We do not know what play was called.
Besides the point that it is IRREVERENT "milking the clock wasn't what they were thinking at that point"....the OBVIUS smart decison (no mater what play was called) was to THROW TO THE WIDE OPEN GUY TO GET THE FIRTS DOWN. That is simple, plain reality.
In any event, great QB's affect what the "thinking" is at any given moment. Kurt is spot on when he said that
“Sometimes,” Warner said, “you talk yourself into a play and say, ‘I’m gonna make this play, and this is the throw that’ll send us to the championship game,’ instead of saying, ‘I’m gonna let the defense dictate where I throw the ball.’ As a quarterback, you have to have the ability to balance those things.”
I'll listen to Kurt Warner who's been there. I'll believe my own eyes, that when that play happened, I remember (yelling to the TV) "DON'T THROW THE BALL TO THE END ZONE"!!!
Until Josh learns those lessons that Kurt plainly expressed, the Bills have less a chance to win a SB than they should. When he does, the chances increase.
Anyway, your repeated misrepresentation of what I (and others) have written should how vapid your observations are. Strawmen baloney reveals the lack of reason. I'm not surprised from our history of political discussions. That's the way people on your side "debate'...they can't engage in good faith arguments based on the merits, so they construct strawman garbage
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