The Bills Are Blessed with One of a Only a Handful of the Rare Elite QB in the NFL

[jamze132]

Re: The Bills Are Blessed with One of a Only a Handful of the Rare Elite QB in the NF

Anyone who thinks Josh is not elite isn’t paying attention. It takes more than a ****ing QB to win a Super Bowl

[Typ0]

Re: The Bills Are Blessed with One of a Only a Handful of the Rare Elite QB in the NF

Anyone who thinks Josh is not elite isn’t paying attention. It takes more than a ****ing QB to win a Super Bowl

Then why is he all too often trying to do it all himself?

[jamze132]

Re: The Bills Are Blessed with One of a Only a Handful of the Rare Elite QB in the NF

Then why is he all too often trying to do it all himself?

The Bills developed quite the running game after Brady took over. Down the stretch when every game matters, you put the ball into the hands of your best player, that being #17.

[notacon]

Re: The Bills Are Blessed with One of a Only a Handful of the Rare Elite QB in the NF

Availability factors into elite as well. Burrow has missed large parts in 2 of his 4 seasons. You want to tell me Mahomes is elite and Josh isn't I'll politely disagree. Tell me Burrow is elite and Josh isn't? Get the **** out of here!

Awesome observation.

Josh Allen has the longest streak of consecutive games of 99 without missing one because of injury.

He has only missed FOUR games in his whole career, due to injury between week 7 and 10 his rookie year in 2018 due to sprained right elbow. He was listed as "questionable" for that game and probably could have played.

The Bills came out on fire that day against the woefully bad Jets blowing them out 41-10. Barkley got the start and his first pass was a 47 yard completion to Robert Foster. The next play, Sean McCoy ran 28 yards for a TD, and the Bills led 7-0 after 49 seconds. They out gained the Jests...er....Jets the first quarter 186-1. No need to bring the promising rookie in.

Last game Josh Allen has missed because of injury was week 10, 2018 vs. those NYJ.

He is built like a brick ****house and plays like a bulldozer.

[notacon]

Re: The Bills Are Blessed with One of a Only a Handful of the Rare Elite QB in the NF

I don't see Allen as an Elite QB until he achieves Elite. Allen has Elite abilities but not an Elite mind for the game. He's really just an average guy being carried forward on exceptional physical abilities and athleticism.

Can he become Elite? Perhaps. But time is ticking and it doesn't look like McDermott has the mustard to help it happen and even if he does he's proven it is probably going to take longer than Josh Allen's career to get there.

If you want Josh Allen to be Elite he's going to need to be matched with a different head coach -- and that is just a chance of a possibility not any guarantee.

Then you have a badly warped definition of what an "elite QB" even means.

[Typ0]

Re: The Bills Are Blessed with One of a Only a Handful of the Rare Elite QB in the NF

Then you have a badly warped definition of what an "elite QB" even means.

badly warped == different from notty.

[Typ0]

Re: The Bills Are Blessed with One of a Only a Handful of the Rare Elite QB in the NF

The Bills developed quite the running game after Brady took over. Down the stretch when every game matters, you put the ball into the hands of your best player, that being #17.

That is how our guys see it too. Put the ball in Allen's hands and he will make some super human play that wins us the game.

He does it about 1/2 the time everyone bases their 'elite' status on his 1/2 successes.

But what about the failures? Look the other way.

Then send the field-goal team onto the field when you need a TD.

That certainly is putting the ball in his hands ....

Then go have some coffee because they have time they don't really need to plan and organize Uber Allen has it covered.

Nevermind you can see when the pressure is on the team pretty much always doesn't know what the **** to do.

Don't say "YOU" because I would be working it very differently.

[Gibby 2.0]

Re: The Bills Are Blessed with One of a Only a Handful of the Rare Elite QB in the NF

Now imagine Mahomes on the Bills and Allen on the Chiefs.

Would the Chiefs be just as good with Allen?

Would the Bills be just as good with Mahomes?

Josh Allen probably is just as successful in KC as Mahomes has been and Mahomes is just as successful as Allen has been in Buffalo. I will admit my bias, I firmly believe Josh is the better qb. The problem is the Chiefs are the better built and above all coached team.

[cas22]

Re: The Bills Are Blessed with One of a Only a Handful of the Rare Elite QB in the NF

We've spent a LOT of posts on that subject.

I do not think (at this point in time) there is any question, and I backed up my premise with a plethora of facts and evidence that....

If Mahomes was on the Bills (since 2017), they would have two or three SB wins.

If Josh Allen was on the Chiefs (since 2018), they woulds not have any.

But that's not the point of this thread and that horse that has been beaten to a bloody death....no need to rehash the same arguments.

I disagree with Kenny, "there's only 1 maybe 2 elite QBs in this league - Mahomes and maybe Burrows."

There is no question that there are four QB's drafted since 2014 that I deemed "Elite Superstar".

As I have posted before with a LOT of detail, The Athletic ranks QB's every year and out them into Tiers. This is not the opinion of journalists but rather the well informed expert opinion of current NFL professionals.....NFL coaches, GM's, coordinators, talent evaluators and QB coaches that are "granted anonymity to share unvarnished evaluations" to place each starting QB into "Tiers".

Instead of using the word "elite" they use "Tier 1". They define that as...

"Tier 1 - A Tier 1 quarterback can carry his team each week. The team wins because of him. He expertly handles pure passing situations. He has no real holes in his game."

2023 Tiers, reflecting the 2022 season had FIVE QB's....

Mahomes
Burrow
Allen
Rodgers
Herbert

Slightly different than my four "elite" (drafted since 2014) but my observation includes 2023 season. It will be interesting to see what their Tiers are when they publish in July.

My list was only QB's drafted since 2014. I include Lamar Jackson in "elite" because he raised the level of his play in 2023. Conversely, I believe that Herbert took a step back last year.

It remains to be seen if Rodgers maintains his "elite" status. I suspect he will.

Josh Allen took three years to climb into Tier 1 territory.
2023 – JA got 44 Tier 1 votes and 6 Tier 2.
2022 – JA’s first year obtaining Tier 1 status his voting average was 1.22 for Tier 1 (they do not give vote totals every year)
2021 – JA got 20 Tier 1 votes and 30 Tier 2. He was deemed a “Tier 2” that year.
2020 – JA got 4 Tier 2 votes, 40 Tier 3 and 6 Tier 4. He was deemed a “Tier 3” QB.
2019 – JA received 18 Tier 3 votes, 36 Tier 4 and 1 Tier 5. He was deemed a “Tier 4” QB.


He is unquestionably an "elite" QB. And I am grateful that the Bils have him and will have him for years to come.

you most definitely have never played the game and if you did you were not very good because you no nothing, Mahomes came into a perfect situation on a playoff caliber team and sat his whole 1st year under a head coach who was in his 2nd stint as a heade coach that made it to a superbowl but failed.

Allen came into a team with absolutely not 1 starter on the offense that was there in year 2 and was thrown into the fire..with a head coach that has never been a head coach anywhere.

no one has a clue as to how many superbowls KC would have if Allen went there and did exactly what Mahomes did, he might have won 4 he might have won zero, I do know if Patrick would have became a Bill we still would be right where were at, they are 2 entirely different system KCs vs, Buff's. KC runs a west coast offense where the Bills run a offense that Daboll installed that rely's on the QB's ability to score with his legs, Mahomes isn't even close to Allens caliber when it comes to running with the football, Allen had 15 tds on 534 yards rushing the football on 111 attempts, if Mahomes ran that much he would be on injured reserve's..Mahomes had 389 yards rushing on 79 rush's with 0 tds.. Mahomes runs when he has to, Allens ability is installed in the system.

KC runs many screen plays, Buffalo runs maybe 2 wr screens that look pretty gruesome,,

plus KC won a superbowl this year wasn't because Mahomes was out of site with his play, they won because they played complimentary football. yes Mahomes came thruogh when needed in the playoffs but so did the defense, our defense has never came through, we score 35 point but give up 42 . thats not on Allen, Allen has played more than good enough to take A TEAM to win a Superbowl, the team he has been on has yet to play a playoff game when the team played complimentary Football...

[OpIv37]

Re: The Bills Are Blessed with One of a Only a Handful of the Rare Elite QB in the NF

Makes what GB has done unbelievable. If Love develops into an elite QB they should be cursed to 100 years of bad QB play when he's done.

This really is true. It’s insane.

But one thing about both Love and Rodgers: GB sat them on the bench and made them watch elite QB’s for several years before making them starters. That had to help. But most teams aren’t willing to do that anymore because a) if you’re drafting a potential elite QB, it’s probably because you had a bad season due to not having any QB options and b) QB contracts are becoming so high that you almost have to win a title on a QB’s rookie deal. After he gets paid, there’s no cap to put a team around him.

The economics of the game speaker it hard to sit a top QB prospect for 2 years.

[Goobylal]

Re: The Bills Are Blessed with One of a Only a Handful of the Rare Elite QB in the NF

Green Bay got lucky (assuming Love is the real deal). Three different regimes (potentially) hit on QBs.

[cas22]

Re: The Bills Are Blessed with One of a Only a Handful of the Rare Elite QB in the NF

This really is true. It’s insane.

But one thing about both Love and Rodgers: GB sat them on the bench and made them watch elite QB’s for several years before making them starters. That had to help. But most teams aren’t willing to do that anymore because a) if you’re drafting a potential elite QB, it’s probably because you had a bad season due to not having any QB options and b) QB contracts are becoming so high that you almost have to win a title on a QB’s rookie deal. After he gets paid, there’s no cap to put a team around him.

The economics of the game speaker it hard to sit a top QB prospect for 2 years.

ya'll are too young to remember when green bay struggled from 1968 to 1995 they won 1 division title... Farve was traded to GB in 1992... but it does show you the right way to keep a good QB on a team, you don't wait till you need a QB yet now with the CAP situation its hard to draft a QB early and sit him for 2 or 3 years with no production.

I think a team should bring in a young QB every year weather by draft free agent what ever, if he develops you trade him and do it again.

[EDS]

Re: The Bills Are Blessed with One of a Only a Handful of the Rare Elite QB in the NF

I think Josh is Elite, but if people think it is the coaching staff that is the difference between the results the Bills have had over the past several years versus what the Chiefs have accomplished then I think that is a slam dunk case for the Bills needing to find new coaches. Particularly since it is so hard to find an elite quarterback.

Ownership needs to do everything in its power to maximize championship opportunities and upgrading coaching seems like the low hanging fruit.

[notacon]

Re: The Bills Are Blessed with One of a Only a Handful of the Rare Elite QB in the NF

you most definitely have never played the game and if you did you were not very good because you no nothing, Mahomes came into a perfect situation on a playoff caliber team and sat his whole 1st year under a head coach who was in his 2nd stint as a heade coach that made it to a superbowl but failed.

Allen came into a team with absolutely not 1 starter on the offense that was there in year 2 and was thrown into the fire..with a head coach that has never been a head coach anywhere.

no one has a clue as to how many superbowls KC would have if Allen went there and did exactly what Mahomes did, he might have won 4 he might have won zero, I do know if Patrick would have became a Bill we still would be right where were at, they are 2 entirely different system KCs vs, Buff's. KC runs a west coast offense where the Bills run a offense that Daboll installed that rely's on the QB's ability to score with his legs, Mahomes isn't even close to Allens caliber when it comes to running with the football, Allen had 15 tds on 534 yards rushing the football on 111 attempts, if Mahomes ran that much he would be on injured reserve's..Mahomes had 389 yards rushing on 79 rush's with 0 tds.. Mahomes runs when he has to, Allens ability is installed in the system.

KC runs many screen plays, Buffalo runs maybe 2 wr screens that look pretty gruesome,,

plus KC won a superbowl this year wasn't because Mahomes was out of site with his play, they won because they played complimentary football. yes Mahomes came thruogh when needed in the playoffs but so did the defense, our defense has never came through, we score 35 point but give up 42 . thats not on Allen, Allen has played more than good enough to take A TEAM to win a Superbowl, the team he has been on has yet to play a playoff game when the team played complimentary Football...

Jesus. I guess you know more than current NFL coaches, GM's scouts and other professionals. Whatever. Keep your head in the sand if you like.

Really interesting (and long) video podcast on Go Long, with Gerald "Smoke" Dixon who was employed by the Bills as a scout when they drafted Josh Allen. He was IN THE ROOM, while these evaluations were going on before the draft, on the day of the draft and afterwards.

He talks about how he evaluated ALL the QB's in the 2018 draft, and the interesting fact that Lamar Jackson was never considered by the Bills, and the mindset going into that draft was to PICK A QB, one of the four, Mayfield, Darnold, Allen or Rosen.

He stated the major issues (and why they had less a chance of becoming true "elite" QB's) with Mayfiled, Darnold and Rosen, (and recounts some of the discussions he had directly with Brandon Beane) while recognizing the rawness of Allen. Although THE biggest traits he saw from Josh was his extraordinary arm where he recounted that he "can still hear the fastball "whistle" off his throws", and even more importantly, Allen "mettle" in the pocket.

Josh's mindset in the pocket is rare indeed (and what Mayfield, Darnold and Rosen badly lacked). He just did not care and was never afraid of huge defensive players ready to pound on him. Josh is tough as nails.

He described it at (paraphrasing) "how a QB reacts when a cinder block is hurled into his face, and the ability to wait until it's inches away, move a little to the side and deliver the ball".

Yeah...Josh had those rare qualities that had several of the scouts "standing up on the tables and pounding their feet" to draft him.

BUT, he was undisciplined and raw, raw, raw. Josh thought he (and to some extent still does) could get out of any situation with his athleticism, which led him to poor decisions. Poor decisions that he STILL MAKES, albeit less and less (according the Dixon watching film).

Worse yet, Dixon describes Josh as "not living in the film room early in his career" as he did not take the mental part of the game seriously, again, thinking he could use his "backyard style" to be successful.

THAT is one of the reasons it took Josh several year to develop into an elite QB. And THAT is why Mahomes almost instantly WAS considered an "elite" QB, by REAL NFL PROFESSIONALS from as soon as he became starter.

The analysis from REAL NFL PROFESSIONALS was based on how the innate qualities the QB showed not the system he was in.

I already posted how the REAL NFL PROFESSIONALS ranked Mahomes (as compared to Josh) in Tiers. Here it is again since you obviously are ignoring what the REAL experts say.

2023 had Mahomes getting ALL 50 votes placing him in Tier 1.
2022 he got 49 Tier 1 votes and one Tier 2.
2021 he got ALL 50 votes for Tier 1.
2020 he got ALL 50 votes for Tier 1.
2019 he got 48 votes for Tier 1 and 7 votes for Tier 2.

So, in all the FIVE season Patrick Mahomes was the starting QB for KC, he got 247 votes out of a possible 255 for Tier 1. A whopping 96.8%.

Josh Allen on the other hand, took three years to climb into Tier 1 territory.

2023 – JA got 44 Tier 1 votes and 6 Tier 2.
2022 – JA’s first year obtaining Tier 1 status his voting average was 1.22 for Tier 1 (they do not give vote totals every year)
2021 – JA got 20 Tier 1 votes and 30 Tier 2. He was deemed a “Tier 2” that year.
2020 – JA got 4 Tier 2 votes, 40 Tier 3 and 6 Tier 4. He was deemed a “Tier 3” QB.
2019 – JA received 18 Tier 3 votes, 36 Tier 4 and 1 Tier 5. He was deemed a “Tier 4” QB.

So, NFL professionals with all their expertise and experience, have made it crystal clear that Mahomes has been an ELITE TIER 1 QB since the day he became starter.

Josh Allen has steadily improved and now is consider a Tier 1 QB, but STILL behind Mahomes.


What NFL team have you ever played for????? What NFL team have you ever been a GM for....what NFL team have you ever been a coach, or scout for?!?!?


Please....just stop with the lame "you most definitely have never played the game and if you did you were not very good because you no nothing" bullcrap. I listen to the people that not only have "played the game" but are at the PINNACLE of the NFL Profession


These people have forgotten more about football than you will ever know.

[notacon]

Re: The Bills Are Blessed with One of a Only a Handful of the Rare Elite QB in the NF

This really is true. It’s insane.

But one thing about both Love and Rodgers: GB sat them on the bench and made them watch elite QB’s for several years before making them starters. That had to help. But most teams aren’t willing to do that anymore because a) if you’re drafting a potential elite QB, it’s probably because you had a bad season due to not having any QB options and b) QB contracts are becoming so high that you almost have to win a title on a QB’s rookie deal. After he gets paid, there’s no cap to put a team around him.

The economics of the game speaker it hard to sit a top QB prospect for 2 years.

Green Bay got lucky (assuming Love is the real deal). Three different regimes (potentially) hit on QBs.

"Green Bay got lucky"?!?!? It sure does not look that way.

As Opi points out "The economics of the game speaker [sic] it hard to sit a top QB prospect for 2 years" but Green Bay has not done it once, but TWICE.

Both times when they had a proven elite QB starting. Both times, they used a late first round pick that royally pissed off the incumbent superstar, not only bucking the usual use of a high 1st round pick either "because you had a bad season due to not having any QB options" or trading up (spending precious future draft capital).

Green Bay, after finishing 10-6 in 2004, with Farve ranked #5 in passing yards, drafted Rodgers at #24 in 2005.

Green Bay, after finishing 13-3 in 2019, with Rodgers ranking #11 in passing yards, but throwing for 26 TD, and only FOUR INT's, drafted Love at #26.

Buffalo, on the other hand, gave a MASTER CLASS in how to TOTALLY **** UP a draft AND drafting a QB in 2004, that had them looking like FOOLS when GB stealing Rodgers in 2005.

To remind everyone...

Bills had the #13 pick in 2004, and picked Lee Evans. The BEST QB CLASS in recent memory, where a SMART GM would have sold the house to move up to bag Rothlisberger, by moving ahead of them at #11 (to be fair we don't know how much they tried, or if it would have been possible....but, come on...if they had any kind of balls (which I strongly suspect of because of Ralph Wilson, who was a terrible owner), they could have gotten it done).

So, missing their chance, and settling for a pretty good WR, they COMPOUND the ****up and incredibility stupidly TRADE AWAY THEIR 2005 first round pick (along with their 2004 second round and fifth round picks) to move up to get JP Losman?!?!?!

The 2005 pick that Buffalo traded away for the bust Losman turned out to be #20....PRIME position to draft the sliding Aaron Rodgers.

Yeah....one team shows smarts with forward thinking, the other has their collective heads up their asses.

"Luck" had little to do with it.