The Bills Are Blessed with One of a Only a Handful of the Rare Elite QB in the NFL

[Goobylal]

Re: The Bills Are Blessed with One of a Only a Handful of the Rare Elite QB in the NF

"Green Bay got lucky"?!?!? It sure does not look that way.

As Opi points out "The economics of the game speaker [sic] it hard to sit a top QB prospect for 2 years" but Green Bay has not done it once, but TWICE.

Both times when they had a proven elite QB starting. Both times, they used a late first round pick that royally pissed off the incumbent superstar, not only bucking the usual use of a high 1st round pick either "because you had a bad season due to not having any QB options" or trading up (spending precious future draft capital).

Green Bay, after finishing 10-6 in 2004, with Farve ranked #5 in passing yards, drafted Rodgers at #24 in 2005.

Green Bay, after finishing 13-3 in 2019, with Rodgers ranking #11 in passing yards, but throwing for 26 TD, and only FOUR INT's, drafted Love at #26.

Buffalo, on the other hand, gave a MASTER CLASS in how to TOTALLY **** UP a draft AND drafting a QB in 2004, that had them looking like FOOLS when GB stealing Rodgers in 2005.

To remind everyone...

Bills had the #13 pick in 2004, and picked Lee Evans. The BEST QB CLASS in recent memory, where a SMART GM would have sold the house to move up to bag Rothlisberger, by moving ahead of them at #11 (to be fair we don't know how much they tried, or if it would have been possible....but, come on...if they had any kind of balls (which I strongly suspect of because of Ralph Wilson, who was a terrible owner), they could have gotten it done).

So, missing their chance, and settling for a pretty good WR, they COMPOUND the ****up and incredibility stupidly TRADE AWAY THEIR 2005 first round pick (along with their 2004 second round and fifth round picks) to move up to get JP Losman?!?!?!

The 2005 pick that Buffalo traded away for the bust Losman turned out to be #20....PRIME position to draft the sliding Aaron Rodgers.

Yeah....one team shows smarts with forward thinking, the other has their collective heads up their asses.

"Luck" had little to do with it.

LOL! It was total luck. All 3 QBs were taken by different GM/HC combos 13+ years apart. Do you think Ron Wolf/Mike Holmgren left their "how to draft/develop a QB" manual in the Green Bay HQ?

And if it were as easy as drafting a QB, having him sit behind a HOF'er and becoming a HOF'er himself, Jimmy G would be one. But let's wait to see where Love goes from here first.

[Goobylal]

Re: The Bills Are Blessed with One of a Only a Handful of the Rare Elite QB in the NF

I think Josh is Elite, but if people think it is the coaching staff that is the difference between the results the Bills have had over the past several years versus what the Chiefs have accomplished then I think that is a slam dunk case for the Bills needing to find new coaches. Particularly since it is so hard to find an elite quarterback.

Ownership needs to do everything in its power to maximize championship opportunities and upgrading coaching seems like the low hanging fruit.

I agree but it's easier said than done. If McDermott fails to get the Bills to the SB in the next couple years, and certainly if they miss the playoffs, they'll have to find someone else.

[notacon]

Re: The Bills Are Blessed with One of a Only a Handful of the Rare Elite QB in the NF

LOL! It was total luck. All 3 QBs were taken by different GM/HC combos 13+ years apart. Do you think Ron Wolf/Mike Holmgren left their "how to draft/develop a QB" manual in the Green Bay HQ?

And if it were as easy as drafting a QB, having him sit behind a HOF'er and becoming a HOF'er himself, Jimmy G would be one. But let's wait to see where Love goes from here first.

LOL! No it was NOT "total luck"

Just like the Bills drafting and developing Josh Allen was NOT "total luck" .

How silly.

[Goobylal]

Re: The Bills Are Blessed with One of a Only a Handful of the Rare Elite QB in the NF

LOL! No it was NOT "total luck"

Just like the Bills drafting and developing Josh Allen was NOT "total luck" .

How silly.

This is just dumb. Getting a franchise QB is luck. Just look at how many QBs bust. Getting 2 consecutively is even greater luck. How many teams have done that? And 3 is unprecedented. Especially when Rodgers and Love were taken at the end of round 1, meaning almost every team passed on them. There's no magic formula Green Bay has.

[Historian]

Re: The Bills Are Blessed with One of a Only a Handful of the Rare Elite QB in the NF

Getting a franchise QB is luck. Just look at how many QBs bust. Getting 2 consecutively is even greater luck. How many teams have done that? And 3 is unprecedented. Especially when Rodgers and Love were taken at the end of round 1, meaning almost every team passed on them.

Ehhhhh....it can partially be luck. I mean, how you finish the year before kind of determines what position you sit in on draft day.

It's hard to measure what a guy has in his heart.

Rodgers and Love had the benefit of being able to sit and learn, while the Darnolds and the Mayfields were thrown to the wolves.

I think of the Allen drafting.

Everyone wanted a bigger name, from a bigger school, with better stats.

Clearly the Bills did their homework on Allen, despite their detractors saying that his accuracy was bad and couldn't be coached out of him.

I think a lot of work goes into it, and to dismiss it as "luck" is a bit too simplistic.

[Woodman]

Re: The Bills Are Blessed with One of a Only a Handful of the Rare Elite QB in the NF

Ownership needs to do everything in its power to maximize championship opportunities and upgrading coaching seems like the low hanging fruit.

Right on!

[notacon]

Re: The Bills Are Blessed with One of a Only a Handful of the Rare Elite QB in the NF

This is just dumb. Getting a franchise QB is luck. Just look at how many QBs bust. Getting 2 consecutively is even greater luck. How many teams have done that? And 3 is unprecedented. Especially when Rodgers and Love were taken at the end of round 1, meaning almost every team passed on them. There's no magic formula Green Bay has.

You are too close minded to see reality.

"How many teams have done that?" in getting two consecutive franchise QB's in a row actually proves the point that it's not all "luck" for Green Bay.

In fact, the way the Packers did it, both times, selecting a QB late in the first round while having a franchise QB still active and on the roster, shows institutional expertise.

Contra the Bills, who's mostly (broken p only by Jim Kelly...who they did everything to **** that up by letting him play in the USFL instead of the Bills after they drafted him...besides the fact that they did not even use their first 1st round pick on him that year) to have institutional FAILURE when it comes to QB's....UNTIL RALPH WILSON NO LONGER OWNER THE TEAM.

Another example of a team's institutional failure with QB's is Chicago.

No, what is "luck" is selecting Tom Brady with the 199th pick and Brock Purdy with the last pick. THAT is "luck"

[notacon]

Re: The Bills Are Blessed with One of a Only a Handful of the Rare Elite QB in the NF

Ehhhhh....it can partially be luck. I mean, how you finish the year before kind of determines what position you sit in on draft day.

It's hard to measure what a guy has in his heart.

Rodgers and Love had the benefit of being able to sit and learn, while the Darnolds and the Mayfields were thrown to the wolves.

I think of the Allen drafting.

Everyone wanted a bigger name, from a bigger school, with better stats.

Clearly the Bills did their homework on Allen, despite their detractors saying that his accuracy was bad and couldn't be coached out of him.

I think a lot of work goes into it, and to dismiss it as "luck" is a bit too simplistic.

Yep. As I pointed pout, the Packers went WELL OUTSIDE of the usual custom of a team having a ****ty QB after a ****ty year, that gave them a high enough draft position to go after one of the best prospects.

GB was coming off very good years (record wise) WINNING THEIR DIVISION with a future HOF QB (Farve) and a probable future HOF QB (Rodgers) on the roster and still, more or less, in their prime....and spent that 1st round pick, pissing off their franchise QB, which allowed them time to develop that QB at a pace that was beneficial to both the team AND the QB.

I've heard Ryan Leaf talk about this many times on GMFB. One of the main reasons he was a bust was being drafted so high, being seen as the teams' savior, and thrown to the wolves when he was not even close to ready.

[Goobylal]

Re: The Bills Are Blessed with One of a Only a Handful of the Rare Elite QB in the NF

Ehhhhh....it can partially be luck. I mean, how you finish the year before kind of determines what position you sit in on draft day.

It's hard to measure what a guy has in his heart.

Rodgers and Love had the benefit of being able to sit and learn, while the Darnolds and the Mayfields were thrown to the wolves.

I think of the Allen drafting.

Everyone wanted a bigger name, from a bigger school, with better stats.

Clearly the Bills did their homework on Allen, despite their detractors saying that his accuracy was bad and couldn't be coached out of him.

I think a lot of work goes into it, and to dismiss it as "luck" is a bit too simplistic.

Josh was also thrown to the wolves on one of the worst offenses I've ever seen the Bills field. He was the 3rd QB taken and I'd say that the Bills landing him was "partial luck" because even though they made a concerted effort to move up to take him, they still had to sweat-out picks 1-6 since he was being talked about as the 1st overall pick and there were 4 teams in need of QBs.

Getting a franchise QB period is luck, even if you have the first overall, much less hitting on QBs at the end of first round like Green Bay did. Just look at last year. I mean, did anyone see CJ Stroud being a stud? He came from one of the worst major college programs for NFL QB success and he bombed the S2, considered the best test for QB success in the NFL. Would you say he had "heart" before he was drafted? Would you say Rodgers did? How do you measure it?

Now if the same regime in Green Bay had drafted all 3 QBs, I'd say it was less less luck and more a blueprint. But they didn't have a single person remaining (meaning front office/GM, coaches or scouts) from the time when Favre was traded for or when Rodgers was drafted because over a dozen years had passed in both instances. And again Rodgers and Love were drafted at spots 24 and 26 overall respectively, allowing for almost any team to take them before Green Bay did, with several teams looking for QBs those years.

Having a QB sit for a few years isn't a guarantee of anything and in this day and age, it's not feasible. Back some 20 years ago when you could take years to develop a QB it made more sense, but again, it rarely happened that a franchise QB was succeeded by another one, much less another one after that.

You are too close minded to see reality.

"How many teams have done that?" in getting two consecutive franchise QB's in a row actually proves the point that it's not all "luck" for Green Bay.

In fact, the way the Packers did it, both times, selecting a QB late in the first round while having a franchise QB still active and on the roster, shows institutional expertise.

Contra the Bills, who's mostly (broken p only by Jim Kelly...who they did everything to **** that up by letting him play in the USFL instead of the Bills after they drafted him...besides the fact that they did not even use their first 1st round pick on him that year) to have institutional FAILURE when it comes to QB's....UNTIL RALPH WILSON NO LONGER OWNER THE TEAM.

Another example of a team's institutional failure with QB's is Chicago.

No, what is "luck" is selecting Tom Brady with the 199th pick and Brock Purdy with the last pick. THAT is "luck"

So it's "institutional success"? All that's needed is the Green Bay name and voila, they automatically draft franchise QBs from now on? LOL!

[YardRat]

Re: The Bills Are Blessed with One of a Only a Handful of the Rare Elite QB in the NF

Allen has elite skills and maybe even intangibles, but his mental grasp of the game is borderline average, being generous. Plus he has anxiety issues he needs to overcome.

Burrows isn't anywhere in Josh's league physically, but he is slightly better in intangibles and a light year above mentally. That's why he's beaten a better team on the road, won a conference championship and competed for a Super Bowl.

I wouldn't trade Josh for any other QB in the league, bar none, but if I had to bet money I would take Burrows getting to another SB before Josh does.

[Goobylal]

Re: The Bills Are Blessed with One of a Only a Handful of the Rare Elite QB in the NF

Allen has elite skills and maybe even intangibles, but his mental grasp of the game is borderline average, being generous. Plus he has anxiety issues he needs to overcome.

Burrows isn't anywhere in Josh's league physically, but he is slightly better in intangibles and a light year above mentally. That's why he's beaten a better team on the road, won a conference championship and competed for a Super Bowl.

I wouldn't trade Josh for any other QB in the league, bar none, but if I had to bet money I would take Burrows getting to another SB before Josh does.

Would you trade the supporting cast (players and coaches) around Josh for Burrow's?

[Historian]

Re: The Bills Are Blessed with One of a Only a Handful of the Rare Elite QB in the NF

Plus he has anxiety issues he needs to overcome.

C'mon man.

You don't really believe that, do you?

[Forward_Lateral]

Re: The Bills Are Blessed with One of a Only a Handful of the Rare Elite QB in the NF

C'mon man.

You don't really believe that, do you?

I know there wasn't message boards back then, but did fans crap on Jim Kelly like they do Josh Allen?

[notacon]

Re: The Bills Are Blessed with One of a Only a Handful of the Rare Elite QB in the NF

Allen has elite skills and maybe even intangibles, but his mental grasp of the game is borderline average, being generous. Plus he has anxiety issues he needs to overcome.

Burrows isn't anywhere in Josh's league physically, but he is slightly better in intangibles and a light year above mentally. That's why he's beaten a better team on the road, won a conference championship and competed for a Super Bowl.

I wouldn't trade Josh for any other QB in the league, bar none, but if I had to bet money I would take Burrows getting to another SB before Josh does.

I disagree with the "anxiety issues". Ex-Bills scout Smoke Dixon says the opposite....with his "cinder block" observation.

Although he did give some credence to the "mental grasp of the game is borderline average", but that was more from of observing that he did not put the work early in his career studying the game and not (at that time) being a film room rat. He admitted he does not know about his habits lately.

As I have been an persistent critic of the way Josh failed in the mental part of the game in the last 2 min of the KC loss, the title to the thread I started about that is spot on...."Requiem for the Bills - When will Josh Learn??"

Like you "I wouldn't trade Josh for any other QB in the league, bar none" but I would NOT "bet money" that "Burrows getting to another SB before Josh does.". Of course, I never bet money on football...so there's that.

[notacon]

Re: The Bills Are Blessed with One of a Only a Handful of the Rare Elite QB in the NF

Josh was also thrown to the wolves on one of the worst offenses I've ever seen the Bills field. He was the 3rd QB taken and I'd say that the Bills landing him was "partial luck" because even though they made a concerted effort to move up to take him, they still had to sweat-out picks 1-6 since he was being talked about as the 1st overall pick and there were 4 teams in need of QBs.

Getting a franchise QB period is luck, even if you have the first overall, much less hitting on QBs at the end of first round like Green Bay did. Just look at last year. I mean, did anyone see CJ Stroud being a stud? He came from one of the worst major college programs for NFL QB success and he bombed the S2, considered the best test for QB success in the NFL. Would you say he had "heart" before he was drafted? Would you say Rodgers did? How do you measure it?

Now if the same regime in Green Bay had drafted all 3 QBs, I'd say it was less less luck and more a blueprint. But they didn't have a single person remaining (meaning front office/GM, coaches or scouts) from the time when Favre was traded for or when Rodgers was drafted because over a dozen years had passed in both instances. And again Rodgers and Love were drafted at spots 24 and 26 overall respectively, allowing for almost any team to take them before Green Bay did, with several teams looking for QBs those years.

Having a QB sit for a few years isn't a guarantee of anything and in this day and age, it's not feasible. Back some 20 years ago when you could take years to develop a QB it made more sense, but again, it rarely happened that a franchise QB was succeeded by another one, much less another one after that.



So it's "institutional success"? All that's needed is the Green Bay name and voila, they automatically draft franchise QBs from now on? LOL!

There is no doubt that there is SOME "luck" in getting a franchise QB. Although it's a lot less than you seem to attribute to it, and it's a LOT less than what one of the experts and first hand observer of being a NFL QB bust, Ryan Leaf has to say.

Ironically enough, according to Leaf, simply being drafted high in the first round in today's NFL put that player at a HUGE disadvantage as the pressure is UNBELIEVABLY and DESTRUCTIVELY counter to what you want to develop a franchise QB.

Your observations of the kind of offense that Josh came into the Bills is mostly less of a factor (not to say that is not a factor) in assessing a QB's quality, at least according to NFL head coaches, NFL GM's, NFL scouts, NFL coordinators and NFL QB coaches that I have detailed with their QB Tiers evaluation.

As for my accurate observation of Green Bay's "institutional success", your lame dismissal of it as " All that's needed is the Green Bay name and voila, they automatically draft franchise QBs from now on? LOL!" shows extreme narrow mindedness and failing to see plain reality.

"Institutional success" is simply an accurate observation that the organization has developed and embraced a method of deciding WHEN and HOW to bring about continuing QB success. How the past decisions were made are PART of the ORGANIZATION which IS, in fact "institutional success"

The TOTAL OPPOSITE is what the Bills had to fall on. It was more "Institutional FAILURE". They literally had nothing to fall back on as how to succeed in transitioning the position (as players age and move on) so they mostly followed the path of failure.

I believe a very reasonable explanation for the success of Green Bay and the mostly failure of the Bills when it comes to QB's is the fact that Green Bay DOES NOT HAVE an individual owner as they have been a "publicly owned, nonprofit corporation since 1923"

NFL owners inevitability get involved with some of the most critical decisions, for better or worse (usually for worse). Almost all of them lack the necessary knowledge and experience to make decisions about football based on knowledge of experience with, you know...FOOTBALL!!!!

Today's NFL owners made their fortunes usually in business of some sort, co-foundling Home Depot, hedge fund managers, natural gas and fracking, CEO of Flying J truck stops, Texas oilman, Ford Motor Company heir, "cogeneration power plant company" owner (selling to to Enron to become rich), heating and air conditioning, car bumpers manufacturing, catering & real estate, real estate and tax shelters shyster, packaging materials, car dealerships, heir to the Johnson & Johnson company, movie theater chain, building shopping malls, co-founding Microsoft, Wal-Mart heir, marketing and advertising and of course, inheriting wealth (and the team) from a rich parent

Owners make decisions based on their experience and expertise. It's not usually football. The smart ones (sometimes) hire good football people and give them the freedom to make decisions based on what is best for the team with football expertise in mind. Mr Pegula has (after stumbling a bit the first few years) has mostly followed this method to extremely good success.

So, YES. Green Bay has YEARS and YEARS of "institutional" knowledge, experience and expertise grounded in FOOTBALL. NFL owners have "institutional" knowledge, experience and expertise on how to make money with various business as detailed above.

Owners are impatient and make sometimes rash decisions not based on what is the smartest move for football success.

So, YES. Green Bay DOES HAVE "institutional success" grounded and passed on by years of putting football minds in control and not owners that have made money in other ventures.