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All: The new Billszone site with the updated software is scheduled to be turned on Tuesday, May 21, 2024. The company that built it, Dynascale, estimates a FOUR HOUR shut down, from 8pm Pacific, (5pm Eastern) while they get it up and running. Nobody will be able to post in any forum until they are done. Afterwards, you may need to do a web search for the site, as old links will not work, because the site is getting a new IP address. Please be patient. If there are bugs, we will tackle them one at a time. Remember the goal is to be up and running with no glitches by camp. Doing this now assures us of that, because it gives us all summer to get our ducks in a row. Thank you!
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Interesting take - Is it 2017 all over again for the Bills?
I think what they are talking about is in reference to different goal posts.
The 2017 goal is playoff. The roster should be considered under that context. Prior to 2017, we had better rosters; we had seasons that came so close to a playoff birth. BUT they never got over that hump. And in 2017, it appeared that they gutted it down to take a step backwards in order to take a leap forward (like gathering ammo towards getting a legit shot at a QB). But that team over-achieved - how many of you thought we were definitely going to have a top 10 pick in 2018, likely top 5 in 2018 at the beginning of that season (and they also have Chiefs 1st rounder to go wherever they want in 2018 draft)?
Today at where we are roster wise, we have been challenging to go to the Superbowl. We had better teams in recent years, we have been very close (like 13 seconds). BUT never got over the hump. It appears we give up this year, releasing big contributors during this run; taking hits from cap perspective so we can recharge in 2025.
The miracle of 2017 can happen again. We still have Allen. We may need some luck like in 2017. We may need veterans on their last legs, Von Miller - like Kyle Williams and McCoy of 2017, to play like they are capable to play. We may need the unsplash FA signings, Curtis Samuel, Mike Edwards etc., to pan out big time like Hyde and Poyer of 2017. We need at least a couple of significant contributors from the draft, like White, Dawkins, and Millano in 2017. It is possible, but I have to admit the odds are low. Just see what I listed for 2017. We needed all of them to happen in one season.
No, the comparison was in terms of getting rid of talent. The difference is that most of the talent the Bills got rid of in 2017 was mostly players in their primes, whereas this past off-season it was mostly players past their primes. There's really no comparison.
No, the comparison was in terms of getting rid of talent. The difference is that most of the talent the Bills got rid of in 2017 was mostly players in their primes, whereas this past off-season it was mostly players past their primes. There's really no comparison.
The two biggest stars, that were in their prime, the Bills cut loose were Robert Woods (going into his 5th season) and of course, Stephon Gilmore (going into his 6th).
Gilmore signed a huge deal (for that time) with NE for 5 years $65M. Average of $13M per year. Although this was not his cap number, that amount equaled 7.78% of 2017 $167M cap.
Robert Woods deal was not as huge, 5 years/#39M....but it made him one of the highest paid players of the LA Rams.
Interestingly, in 2017, NE also signed Bills RB Mike Gillislee for 2 years/$6.4M (pretty hefty) after both teams made him an offer. Buffalo declined to match NE's contract.
To sign him, NE gave up a 5th round draft pick, which the Bills used to draft Matt Milano.
The two biggest stars, that were in their prime, the Bills cut loose were Robert Woods (going into his 5th season) and of course, Stephon Gilmore (going into his 6th).
Gilmore signed a huge deal (for that time) with NE for 5 years $65M. Average of $13M per year. Although this was not his cap number, that amount equaled 7.78% of 2017 $167M cap.
Robert Woods deal was not as huge, 5 years/#39M....but it made him one of the highest paid players of the LA Rams.
Interestingly, in 2017, NE also signed Bills RB Mike Gillislee for 2 years/$6.4M (pretty hefty) after both teams made him an offer. Buffalo declined to match NE's contract.
To sign him, NE gave up a 5th round draft pick, which the Bills used to draft Matt Milano.
Gilmore and Woods were UFAs. Neither wanted to be back (Gilmore never wanted to be there in the first place). And Woods was a good WR but I never imagined he'd put up the numbers he did.
The other guys in their prime were Watkins, and arguably Dareus and Darby.
Re: Interesting take - Is it 2017 all over again for the Bills?
Correct. Both Woods and Gilmore were UFAs. I bet if Beane were the Bills GM at the time, he'd find a way to get a pick for Gilmore, like franchise tag then work out a trade. Plenty of suitors, probably not to the tune of a 1st round pick, but would be a high pick.
Correct. Both Woods and Gilmore were UFAs. I bet if Beane were the Bills GM at the time, he'd find a way to get a pick for Gilmore, like franchise tag then work out a trade. Plenty of suitors, probably not to the tune of a 1st round pick, but would be a high pick.
I doubt it. Look at what Sneed went for and he's won 3 SBs with the Chefs.
And again, he’s a defensive HC in a league that has left them in the dust for awhile now
Jack Pardee, these past few teams just feels like the early 90s Oilers. Ungodly talented on both sides of the ball and yet still can't get past the elites in the conference. I do mean Jack Pardee, the 91 Oilers get past Denver they probably beat us and they matched up very well against Washington, hell they went to OT at RFK in the regular season, but in the playoffs? They just could not keep double digit leads.
Anyways, my expectations are that Beane trades up, he always makes a trade, or he trades for an established star (probably overpays, see the Edmunds and Diggs trades) and that yet again this team wins the division and underperforms in the playoffs.
I love the team McD and Beane have built, and in the regular season I love McD, but in the playoffs every year I know that the heartbreak is coming and coming soon. The only fairly painless playoff loss this team had was the Cincy game. Every other one, they either had leads, went the distance and then crushed us all by last second ****ups.
I doubt it. Look at what Sneed went for and he's won 3 SBs with the Chefs.
You may be right. I probably let Gilmore's post FA signing career clouded judgement. But it is true that if anyone knows the franchised guy you are signing will be an NFL Defensive Player of the Year, a near MVP for a super bowl (I still believe he and Edelman should share that honor), teams will line up to give you a high pick.
Let's see what Mr. Sneed will do in Tennessee. I'm betting against a Gilmore type of impact, probably a general consensus.
You may be right. I probably let Gilmore's post FA signing career clouded judgement. But it is true that if anyone knows the franchised guy you are signing will be an NFL Defensive Player of the Year, a near MVP for a super bowl (I still believe he and Edelman should share that honor), teams will line up to give you a high pick.
Let's see what Mr. Sneed will do in Tennessee. I'm betting against a Gilmore type of impact, probably a general consensus.
The only way to have traded Gilmore was to franchise him since his rookie deal was up. But McD assessed the team and knew who he wanted to keep and who he didn't and Gilmore was the latter. I have no doubt that Gilmore/his agent made it known that if he were franchised, he would sit out. And when a team has to give a player a huge new contract, the draft pick compensation goes down.
McD made the right decision. While a draft pick would have been nice, the team was put on the right path by getting rid of him and other malcontents.
Gilmore and Woods were UFAs. Neither wanted to be back (Gilmore never wanted to be there in the first place). And Woods was a good WR but I never imagined he'd put up the numbers he did.
The other guys in their prime were Watkins, and arguably Dareus and Darby.
I know they were UFA. The point is that Bills cut them loose.
The "prime" of "Watkins, and arguably Dareus and Darby." was close to ****. Especially Watkins. The trade and decision to draft him was one of stupidest in Bills history...and there is a lot of competition for that before McBeane turned this franchise around from a laughingstock to a model to be emulated.
A reminder on just how awful the Watkins debacle was.
In 2014 the Bills sent the 9th overall in 2014 along with (inexplicably) 2015 1st and 4th round picks for the right to move up 5 spots to draft the porcelain doll Watkins. On the board when they picked Watkins at #4 were...
Khalil Mack
Mike Evans
Odell Beckham
Aaron Donald
Watkins NEVER started a whole 16 or 17 game season after his underwhelming rookie season. GM Doug Whaley made this ****ty move to try and salvage his other ****ty move the year before by panicking and reaching for EJ Manuel at #16 when he was more suited as a 3rd round project.
Ostensibly...or should I say....obstinately....desperately tried to prop up the crappy Manuel by giving him a supposedly elite WR. Watkins had elite speed and literately little else.
Whaley's record of drafts between 2013 and 2016 were terrible.
Beane traded away Watkins and Darby (the other player you mention as being in his "prime") with those trades defining and transforming what the Bills would become.
Beane sent Watkins and a 2018 6th round pick to LA Rams in exchange for the Rams 2018 2nd round pick and EJ Gaines. He sent Darby to Philly for a 3rd round pick and WR Jordan Matthews.
With extra day 2 picks in his pocket, it set up Beane to do all the maneuvering to move up in 2018 to draft Josh Allen. After trading Gordy Glenn and the Bills 2018 #21 (and a 2018 5th round) to Cincy for 2018 #12 overall (and their 2018 6th).
To get to #7 overall to get Allen, Beane sent the #12 (from the Cincy deal) #53 and #56 they got in the Watkins deal, to make the best draft pick of the Bills in decades.
In addition, Beane used the pick he got for Darby to draft Harrison Philips.
Getting rid of Watkins and Darby (in their "prime") and letting Gilmore and Woods walk were just what the Bills needed.
I know they were UFA. The point is that Bills cut them loose.
The "prime" of "Watkins, and arguably Dareus and Darby." was close to ****. Especially Watkins. The trade and decision to draft him was one of stupidest in Bills history...and there is a lot of competition for that before McBeane turned this franchise around from a laughingstock to a model to be emulated.
A reminder on just how awful the Watkins debacle was.
In 2014 the Bills sent the 9th overall in 2014 along with (inexplicably) 2015 1st and 4th round picks for the right to move up 5 spots to draft the porcelain doll Watkins. On the board when they picked Watkins at #4 were...
Khalil Mack
Mike Evans
Odell Beckham
Aaron Donald
Watkins NEVER started a whole 16 or 17 game season after his underwhelming rookie season. GM Doug Whaley made this ****ty move to try and salvage his other ****ty move the year before by panicking and reaching for EJ Manuel at #16 when he was more suited as a 3rd round project.
Ostensibly...or should I say....obstinately....desperately tried to prop up the crappy Manuel by giving him a supposedly elite WR. Watkins had elite speed and literately little else.
Whaley's record of drafts between 2013 and 2016 were terrible.
Beane traded away Watkins and Darby (the other player you mention as being in his "prime") with those trades defining and transforming what the Bills would become.
Beane sent Watkins and a 2018 6th round pick to LA Rams in exchange for the Rams 2018 2nd round pick and EJ Gaines. He sent Darby to Philly for a 3rd round pick and WR Jordan Matthews.
With extra day 2 picks in his pocket, it set up Beane to do all the maneuvering to move up in 2018 to draft Josh Allen. After trading Gordy Glenn and the Bills 2018 #21 (and a 2018 5th round) to Cincy for 2018 #12 overall (and their 2018 6th).
To get to #7 overall to get Allen, Beane sent the #12 (from the Cincy deal) #53 and #56 they got in the Watkins deal, to make the best draft pick of the Bills in decades.
In addition, Beane used the pick he got for Darby to draft Harrison Philips.
Getting rid of Watkins and Darby (in their "prime") and letting Gilmore and Woods walk were just what the Bills needed.
Dareus was just 27 while Watkins was 24. Those are prime ages. Hindsight says they never fulfilled their promise but at the time, people thought they Bills were giving away top talent in their prime and tanking for a QB. And both could have just needed a change of scenery. I sparred with a Bills fan who I liken to the Uncle Rico of GMs who was saying it was a mistake to trade both. And both were under contract with the Bills, unlike Gilmore and Woods, who would need to have been tagged and paid a ton more money.
And yes, the moves made that year set the stage for the Bills' immediate and sustained success.
Re: Interesting take - Is it 2017 all over again for the Bills?
They may have been in their promise at 27 and 25 but that is merely chronological. There was. Thing showing any sort of upward trend in Watkins game and getting back a second felt kinda dirty and evil in its larceny. Darius could have been a true disruptive beast. It just never happened.
They may have been in their promise at 27 and 25 but that is merely chronological. There was. Thing showing any sort of upward trend in Watkins game and getting back a second felt kinda dirty and evil in its larceny. Darius could have been a true disruptive beast. It just never happened.
Yes, prime age-wise. Again the difference being guys like Hyde, Poyer, White and Diggs etc. are past 30 and on the decline.
Dareus was just 27 while Watkins was 24. Those are prime ages. Hindsight says they never fulfilled their promise but at the time, people thought they Bills were giving away top talent in their prime and tanking for a QB. And both could have just needed a change of scenery. I sparred with a Bills fan who I liken to the Uncle Rico of GMs who was saying it was a mistake to trade both. And both were under contract with the Bills, unlike Gilmore and Woods, who would need to have been tagged and paid a ton more money.
And yes, the moves made that year set the stage for the Bills' immediate and sustained success.
Dareus was huge disappointment if not an outright bust. Watkins WAS a bust.
It may be true that (some) "people thought they Bills were giving away top talent in their prime and tanking for a QB."....I sure was not one of them.
In hindsight it shows that McBeane knew exactly what they were doing.
Just like they do now with the much needed "reset", that I suspect, in hindsight (even as soon as the 2024 playoffs), will be seen as JUST what the Bills needed.
It will start next week with the much anticipated draft. This sure looks a lot like what Beane did to prepare to draft Josh Allen. This time it will be to reload in WR and S and some depth, probably at EDGE and DT.
Back to "people thought they Bills were giving away top talent in their prime and tanking for a QB". It's really interesting to go back and see exactly what "people" were saying at that time.
This is three months before the Bills DID trade Watkins...
This may come as a surprise to some of you, but we need players to put on the field. If we had traded Gilmore last year, who would have played CB? And how much would we have gotten for an average CB with just a year left on his contract?
Tyrod, Sammy, Dareus- we can cut/trade them but it's May. The draft is over and most of the best FA's already signed- who are we going to get that's equal or better before camp starts in 2 months?
After the Bills DID trade Watkins, here is that thread that has the reaction being somewhat mixed....most saying the "tank" was on, and other welcoming the trade....
Personally I think Josh Allen is a better prospect, but we'll see how this season plays out.
Looking back sometimes is illuminating, and verifies my trepidation in valuing so many silly posts, especially those that put forward a definitive declaration as in 'this (fill in the blank...like..."the Bills will not make the playoffs this year" ) happen', when in reality, they don't have the first clue on what is going to happen.
I'm confident in taking most of what is said here with a grain of salt.
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Watkins had elite speed and literately little else. 
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