Thank you big doug
Thank you big doug
Originally posted by BigDoug
The Air Canada Centre in Toronto... 100% privately funded.
The Corel Centre in Ottawa...100% privately funded, as a matter of fact, the team had to pay for the construction of the highway off-ramp they built in Kanata.
Don't tell me that every city gets gov't handouts for arenas.
Originally posted by TonyBuffalo
Thank you big doug
Going back to cities like Winnipeg, Quebec, and Hartford- Do you think they are glad that they did not sink public money into their sports facilities to retain those teams?
The minute Harford lost he Whale, they fell all over themselves to attract the Patriots. They even managed to get Kraft to sign on the dotted line. They were going to build him a stadium in downtown, anything to make them a big league city again. Tied into this new stadium was the prospect of UCONN going 1-A in football and joining the Big East.
But I bet those cities might reconsider. Especially Quebec- the Team won a cup the year they moved
No, I don't think that Winnipeg is hurting after losing the Jets and no I don't think that Quebec is hurting after losing the diques.
The Jets were replaced by the Moose and they have had a solid following in that town (averaging around 7000/game I think in attendance). Also, the AHL plays 80 game seasons, so there's just as many nights to watch a top-notch hockey team in town. Maybe its not as good as going to see the Jets, but its still good hockey and the town didn't have to waste taxpayers money.
On the other hand, Quebec has both the Citadelles (AHL) and Remparts (QMJHL) to watch at their arena. Again, the NHL is probably more entertaining, but a junior team and an AHL is still really exciting and much more affordable, and again, they didn't have to spend tax money.
On a related note DC, do you think the citizens of Ontario are happy with the Skydome? Are the citizens of Montreal happy with the Olympic Centre? I definitely think not.
Tony you seem to be complaining about the players making too much money and the taxes being too high which I don't know what has to do with a hockey team being in WNY. Do you honestly think if the Sabres leave your taxes are going to significantly decrease? The Sabres pay $2M rent to the city and those cash flows will be gone and the arena will be an eyesore that either has to have upkeep funded or be torn down. What about the sales tax revenues from ticket sales and concessions? What Hammister is doing is making the government step up to the plate with something at stake in this deal to get a measure on their level of commitment. It's about a lot more than the cost of a few improvements to the arena. I would have to see some hard figures on the economic impact to the individual taxpayer before I thought these issues were as great as you say they are.
Another thing at question here no one seems to talk about is the development plan for the city. With the tax structure in new york it would seem we need to focus on tourism, hospitality and remote services industries for our future. What impact does the hockey team have on aggressive goals in those areas? How does the hockey team impact the quality of life of the individual taxpayer? There are definately more restaurants and hotel rooms because of the hockey team. There are also more opportunities to host events with the arena. I can honestly say I have avoided concerts at HSBC arena because it isn't a good place to see a concert. I do think the Sabres and the arena improve the quality of life in wny and losing them would reflect very poorly on the city of Buffalo.
Oh please, that's like saying "Well, The Bills are in LA now, but Buffalo Is doing OK- they lead the CFL in attendance"Originally posted by HenryRules
No, I don't think that Winnipeg is hurting after losing the Jets and no I don't think that Quebec is hurting after losing the diques.
The Jets were replaced by the Moose and they have had a solid following in that town (averaging around 7000/game I think in attendance). Also, the AHL plays 80 game seasons, so there's just as many nights to watch a top-notch hockey team in town. Maybe its not as good as going to see the Jets, but its still good hockey and the town didn't have to waste taxpayers money.
On the other hand, Quebec has both the Citadelles (AHL) and Remparts (QMJHL) to watch at their arena. Again, the NHL is probably more entertaining, but a junior team and an AHL is still really exciting and much more affordable, and again, they didn't have to spend tax money.
On a related note DC, do you think the citizens of Ontario are happy with the Skydome? Are the citizens of Montreal happy with the Olympic Centre? I definitely think not.
To compare Olympic stadium in Montreal is a joke as well. That place was ruined by poor design and mismanagement. 1 Billion for an umbrella over that thing is comical. The people of Montreal got ripped off. Comparing that to improving parking at a public facility is a stretch.
Ask the people in Winnipeg if they would rather see Mario Lemieux and Patric Roy, or see Brian Holzinger attempting a comeback.
Originally posted by TonyBuffalo
The new arena shouldn't of been built. THe old aud was fine. THey said oh build the new arena and we'll get more concerts.. wrong... build the new arena we'll get the area to grow... wrong... only people that benifited were the construction company and the hockey players that get paid wether they suck or not.
All that wasted money for what? 6 years? i dont know how old the arena is.
T
Last edited by Buffarama; 01-01-2003 at 07:58 PM.
My, my, a little testy, are we?
although I don't agree with his theroy on letting the Sabres go, I must say I kinda agree with the arena theroy. I never quite understood the whole concept behind that one myself. The Aud was fine, we should have put the money into it and fixed it up. to have it sit there and do nothing is a disgrace!!!
It was a classic Buffalo move just like many others. ie: let's put low rent apartments by the waterfront, let's put a skyway running right along our waterfront. hey let's let some dumbass bring a big ugly ship to our waterfront and then disappear into thin air so we are stuck with this eyesore, let's hold on to industry with our every fiber even though industry is dead in this city, let's put the football stadium out in OP instead of close to downtown so the businesses can benefit from it....
let's face it people this city has made some real a**hole descisions!!!!!
I play real hockey...on the ICE, with a white helmet!
thank you keep :)
Where some of you miss the point is, there's a lot of self employeed people in the area that are having it tough. It's nice to go to work and know for the most part you have a check at the end of the week when you work for someone. Now that's not that case with some companies going down the toliet but in general you know if you do a good job you know you get your money.
THe self employyed don't have a magic tree in back that keeps the money going when the economy is bad. We work, and work.
When the goverment does some lame ass idea that affects businesses in the area, that direct affects my income. WHen they give money to a developer to build a plaza that allows them tax breaks, then they pass those break to people that complete against me. THen it's even worse when it's grant money seeing some of that money is out of my pocket.
Maybe if local politicians didn't get us into this bind we are all in now we would cut them some slack.
Well the rope is too short now...
Tony, I hear you with the small business POV. Some people just don't get it.
The Senators just did a big faux pas by alienating the local small business owners in the Ottawa area. Basically, Bryden called them out, saying he felt they didn't "pull their weight" by buying more season's tickets for their businesses.
Ottawa is mostly a government town & also has a large part of their economy based in high-tech companies like Corel & Nortel and the spin-off IT consultants from that sector. I don't need to tell you how Nortel or Corel & IT in general is performing financially, so that's why the Senators aren't doing well in the seasons ticket dept. I would imagine the Sabres are in the same booat for similar reasons...
I have a good friend who owns a successful IT consultancy in Ottawa who faced this dilema last summer because of the ecomomic downturn...either keep the corporate seasons tix or lay off two people. Guess what his choice was ? Screw the tickets.
Smart man.
Buffarama you have been warned about that post. What's worse is I am leaving it there because it makes you look bad. You obviously know about the rules there are repurcussions. Please refrain from abusing people and these boards.
THank you big doug.
Good example was they were going to give adelphia all that money. Some of it was CASH not jsut a tax break. THey complete with me for internet access and hosting.
Now, the cash amount was $50,000,000. Give me $50 million instead and I would hire a load of people also. Now if these Rigas were so rich as they stated, $50,000,000 would of been nothing to invest in thier own company. Plus this shows the people giving the money don't do thier homework. I wonder what set of books they were looking at when they said, Oh this will be a good investment.
If Hamister is going to use any money at all from the county then there's no reason to keep various things in the dark. If someone was going to hand me a wade of money i'd let them go through what ever they wanted to.
There's 3 sides to the coin here, the people that work for people, the goverment politicians, and then the people that acutally earn the cash.
I don't mean employees, I mean the self owned business owners, the top of the food chain i guess you would say. We are the ones that risk our time and money. If we don't decid to open a business here or there, there are no places for the employees to work. If there's no businesses then there's no tax generation. Oh no property tax from homes seeing people that live in homes need jobs.
Now seeing we risk our money on ventures, we expect to earn as much as we can on our investment. We do not like to see the losers that get elected take the money we earn and paid in taxes and piss it away like water. Now that doesn't mean i expect to risk other people money doing so.
Giving money to a sports team is pissing it away. Honestly as quality of life goes, I don't care if my nieghbor gets to watch hockey if i have to pay for it. Even if it's a little out of my pocket, i would rather leave it in my pocket.
I wouldn't mind if the county loaned hamister the money but then there's NO clause to get out of the loan. He loses his house, his personal cash if he can't pay the loan. Just like any normal business would do.
Tony, I hope you have a good secretary. Geesh. And there are only two sides to a coin. If there were three they would be all lumpy in your pockets.
I do agree with you. The biggest point being that all these "deals" should see the light of day and be fully disclosed to the public. But the big problem is that the past adminstration(s?) have been sold bills of goods that are just now rearing their ugly heads. You are already up the creek without a paddle. The only real choice now is to take that lousy POS paddle that Hammister offers.
Is that a roll of quarters in your pocket?Originally posted by Earthquake Enyart
If there were three they would be all lumpy in your pockets.
No, I'm just happy to see you!
No i made a point about the 2 versus 3 sides. And yes my employees check my grammer and spelling for all business related things :)
If Hamister fully believes he can make money with the sabres then he doens't need help. IF he needs help at thier current "VALUE" then thier "VALUE" is too high. Why can't they just give him the sabres for $30 million?
Who thinks they are worth $60 million? Why are there not a zillion other millionares jumping at the chance to own the team?
You know why? THEY DON"T MAKE MONEY IN SMALL MARKETS.
I think thier "value" is written from the same book as politicians come up with thier paychecks.
WHo knows this answer?
Which hockey teams acutally make a profit? DO they all but not hte sabres? Are most just money pits? I dont know. Educate me.
Oh,
BTW,
Someone said i'm bitter :) I'm not, I just don't like watching what NYS has pissed away through all the layers of politicains and thier cronies.
Remeber support the www.ipny.org !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The last 2 expansion teams went for $80 mil.
If you read what's in the paper, Hammister is only coming up with $30. The other $30 is promised as an operating fund to fund expected losses over the next 3 years.
Hammister is betting on the come that the new CBA will lighten the load and make the Sabres profitable. But it seems that he knows the arena lease contract better than the county and city do. He knows that once the dummies crunch the numbers, they are better off with his deal than no deal. Which ain't saying much.
The price of the last 2 expansion teams, while perhaps serving as a ballpark figure, can be quite misleading.
For starters, no debt is inherited when purchasing an expansion team ... this is not the case when purchasing existing teams.
Secondly, there are limited restrictions for an expansion team (i.e. pre-existing lease agreement, advertising contracts, overpaid players/management, etc.). For an expansion team, there are no such restrictions.
Thirdly, most teams that are sold (i.e. the Sabres) are being sold because there are severe problems with the existing framework. This is not the case with an expansion team.
Finally, when buying an expansion team, you have the freedom to put it where you want to (with some restrictions), whereas most purchases of existing teams (i.e. the Sabres) require keeping the team in the same unprofitable area.
The sole manner of valuing a franchise should be the buyer sells it for the best offer. This manner of valuation becomes bastardized when public money is given to the purchaser for free. It minimizes the risks for the investor (by minimizing the sunk costs in his purchase) yet does nothing at all to minimize his possible returns ... making a higher purchasing price seem more attractive than it truly is.
Originally posted by BillyT92679
Losing the Sabres would hurt, but the worst thing to happen to Buffalo would be if the Bills moved.
The NFL keeps Western NY on the viability map.
He has a point, if we are stuck paying for something it should be football. Much more popular.
THink about it this way, how many people sit in the arena versus the stadium? Even on a bad day for the bills the stadium has a lot of people at a game. For the amount that go to hockey, it's like a drop in the bucket compared to football.
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