BillsZone Round Table 10/7/2004

by Frank Stephen, RRich, Jeremy Ford

Frank:

Tonight it is my pleasure to be joined by BillsZone posters Jeremy Ford (Tatonka) and Richard Flowers (RRich). Guys, we are four weeks into the NFL season finds the Buffalo Bills at 0-3. Mental mistakes and bad play abound. Injuries are starting to creep in and now the Bills go on the road to take on the 3-0 NYJ at the Meadowlands. Rich, what is wrong with the Buffalo offense? They have just one TD and one FG in each of the first three games.

RRich:

Window dressing. All during the offseason, the raging debate was whether we missed Peerless Price or not, hence the draftng of Evans. As I've been saying for about TWO YEARS now, we miss Wolford, Ballard, Richter, Davis and Hull way more than we do Peerless. Donahoe has done nothing to address the line and we're paying for it.

Jeremy:

Agreed

Frank:

Jeremy, does DB make the OL look worse than it really is?

Jeremy:

Actually, I think yes in most cases, but to elaborate on Rrich's point Tom Donahoe has addressed the line. He has just done a really bad job at it. Teague. Mike Williams. Villarrial. Tucker. All the guys there are TD’s guys.

RRich:

…And a bunch of low round picks.

Jeremy:

And the only ones that are worth a damn are Price and Jennings (when he is not hurt).

RRich:

Jennings is average. He's not worth paying a ton of cash to keep him here.

Jeremy:

Average is better than most of the others

Frank:

I think Rich made a great point. These are not exactly studs up there; too many cast-offs and never-weres, imo.

RRich:

Yep.

Jeremy:

I think that if we had a great center and a great left guard, we would have a respectable line.

RRich:

Yes.

Jeremy:

But, with those two weaknesses, it just makes the rest of the line show to be average and then Drew Bledsoe.

RRich:

It just stands to reason: you have an immobile QB, so you need to have a strong interior OL. We don't. I don't get it.

Frank:

15 Sacks in three games. How much is attributable to Drew?

Jeremy:

50% easy.

RRich:

Throw out about 4 or 5 sacks, as they were in garbage time in the last 2 games.

Jeremy:

If JP Losman or any mobile QB is back there then it is a whole different case.

RRich:

I'd still say 4-6 out of 10.

Frank:

Show me the 7 sacks he is responsible for? I count 1 against Jacksonville, 1 against New England and 2 against the Raiders.

Jeremy:

Like RRich just said, the 4 sacks at the end of the NE game are to be expected.

Frank:

Then you really have limited the number of sacks attributable to Drew.

RRich:

I've Tivo'd each game. I'll go over the tapes and point them out.

Frank:

Do you really think Losman is better at this stage of his career than Bledsoe? Even without the injury Losman is a pure rookie.

Jeremy:

No, maybe, he would DEFINATELY make the line better. Our line looked good with Flutie; the same line that got Rob Johnson killed.

Frank:

This is not the same line as 1998, and 1999. Mobility might get JP to move but Bill Belicheck would have eaten him alive.

RRich:

Agreed. He's not ready now.

Jeremy:

He ate drew Bledsoe alive, too, and we lost by 2 touchdowns.

Frank:

Flutie had played a lot more football than Losman.

Jeremy:

So what is the point?

Frank:

So, you would rather lose by 3 or 4 TDs?

Jeremy:

We are just wasting time. Your right, Losman will struggle but we are NOT winning anything with Bledsoe. If it means that we will win sooner next year then YES, I want to lose by 3 TDs.

RRich:

Drew is making it tough to disagree with you, Jeremy.

Jeremy:

We are losing with Drew anyway.

Frank:

I'd rather have a chance than watch a rookie get pounded.

Jeremy:

He can’t help himself. He doesn’t help this team. He is a "don’t lose the game" QB who loses games.

Frank:

So, we should intentionally chuck the season so the kid gets some play?

RRich:

How can we salvage it? Can Drew turn it around after over a decade of playing the same way?

Jeremy:

No. Do you think the Pats said "ok, let’s chuck the season" when that rookie Tom Brady came in?

Frank:

Did Bledsoe lose the Jacksonville game?

Jeremy:

No, but he sure didn't win it either.

RRich:

I said going into the opener that I think this team is a year away from contention.

Frank:

Did Bledsoe lose the NE game?

Jeremy:

Yes, in part.

Frank:

You are telling me Losman would have won?

RRich:

The TEAM lost those games.

Frank:

How did Bledsoe lose either game?

Jeremy:

I am NOT saying Losman would have won.

RRich:

The offense couldn't score. The defense broke down.

Jeremy:

I am saying that Drew has had a big part in the offense not putting up points. You don't win if you can’t score.

Frank:

As a fan I want to win. I sat through enough 2-14 years waiting for a winner.

Jeremy:

Well guess what, with drew at the helm this team will never be a winner. Ever. Not even a chance. Even if this were a playoff caliber team Drew would kill us in the playoffs.

RRich:

I haven't written him off, but I need to see some reason to back him.

Jeremy:

He has not EVER shown that he can be counted on to lead the team through big games since he has been in Buffalo. Not ever. That is why you give Losman a chance.

Frank:

My reason to back him is 1) there is nobody else on the bench and 2) I don't think he lost either the Jacksonville or the NE game.

Jeremy:

Maybe you strike gold with Losman and he pulls a Brady.

Frank:

Losman hasn't shown that he can tie his cleats in the NFL.

Jeremy:

Or maybe you don’t but his learning curve is dramatically reduced for next year. Drew Bledsoe has shown he can’t either. Oh wait. He can’t tie his cleats but he can’t win games. He can’t help but turn the ball over.

Frank:

Carson Palmer was a #1 overall. He's playing like crap. How many first round QBs fail? At this point, putting in Losman is giving up the season.

Jeremy:

Tons fail but we drafted him for a reason.

Frank:

Do you realize that he was drafted higher than Jim Kelly? Do you think this kid has a chance of being Jim Kelly?

RRich:

I think there should be another option. Too bad there really isn't one.

Jeremy:

At this point, Dallas is looking at a really nice pick that will be a top 10 most likely.

RRich:

Don't remind me.

Frank:

Good for Dallas. I didn't want to trade to get Losman anyway.

Jeremy:

Frank, do you think that this team can actually win a Super Bowl this year with Drew? RRich, how bout you?

RRich:

No.

Frank:

Hell no but I think they are more competitive with DB than with a pure rookie.

Jeremy:

So you are happy with just being competitive?

Frank:

Better than going 2-14. I said 7-9, I never expected them to make the playoffs. DB is here to hold the fort for the kid. That's it.

RRich:

My take on the Bills (before Jax): a work in progress.

Jeremy:

I don’t want competitive. I want a winner.

Frank:

They were not going to win with Losman in there.

Jeremy:

What is the point of holding the fort? To prolong the inevitable?

Frank:

What is the use of going 2-14 with a rookie and giving the #1 or #2 pick to Dallas?

RRich:

It's not just a given that a rookie can't win. Big Ben is looking pretty good in Pittsburgh.

Jeremy:

Thank you rich. The sooner you move in the right direction, the sooner you win. Drew is not the right direction. There is no doubt he is gone after this year. So move on. We are going to give Dallas the #1 or 2 pick with Drew anyway.

RRich:

Not just the win-loss record, he looks really mature out there for a rookie.

Frank:

He beat Miami. Cincy beat themselves.

RRich:

See, Frank? You're looking at the opponents. I'm looking at how a ROOKIE responds to being thrown into the starting job. So far, he passes the test.

Jeremy:

There is no way Brady could have won as a rookie either, right?

Frank:

He didn't play as a rookie.

Jeremy:

Essentially he did. He was the 3rd string scrub the year before and came out and played huge 3 games into the season. There is NO set answer.

Frank:

Hence, he did not play as a rookie. He had a year to digest what they taught him and learn the NFL. That makes a huge difference

Jeremy:

Some QBs win and some don’t.

RRich:

True.

Jeremy:

I don’t care how long he has been in the NFL or not. Point is, rookies and nobodies who should never have won, HAVE won.

Frank:

I've also heard Brady speak. Much like McNabb and Manning, he is a smart man. Losman sounds like Rob Johnson right now.

Jeremy:

GREAT! So, now you’re judging Losman’s ability to be a winning QB based on what he talks like. Very insightful. Drew SOUNDS real smart too he just doesn’t play like it.

Frank:

I am judging his intelligence on how he speaks. That speaks volumes of a person.

Jeremy:

That’s crap

RRich:

You sound intelligent, Frank.

Jeremy:

Mike Vick speaks like a thug and he is 3-0. 4-0 even.

Frank:

I'm not talking book smart. QBs need to be smart people. Jim Kelly is not a brain surgeon. They have to be able to get the game of football. They have to be able to express what they are thinking. Losman does not do that. He sounds intimidated by a microphone. I have never seen that in McNabb, Manning or Vick.

RRich:

I see your point.

Frank:

And personally, I don't think Vick sounds like a thug.

RRich:

I wouldn't write JP off just yet. How smart did Favre sound in Atlanta?

Frank:

I never heard Favre when he was in Atlanta, but I saw him in the preseason down there and the kid could play well...against first teamers!!!

Jeremy:

All I care about is how he plays. I don’t care how he talks. I care that he was awesome in the preseason and we have nothing else to look forward too as this franchise sinks to the level of a Cardinals or Bengals franchise but that is where we are headed. We have done nothing positive since TD has taken over.

Frank:

Awesome against whom? JP played against scrubs. And TD has done nothing positive?

Jeremy:

At least it is hope.

RRich:

We've brought in Big Mike and Teague. That's positive.

Jeremy:

Yeah.

Frank:

Hope doesn't win games.

Jeremy:

Neither does Drew, period.

RRich:

Positively frustrating!

Jeremy:

Never has.

Frank:

All I can say is that Losman better be worth what the Bills are giving up for him. At this point, the cost means he better be better than Jim Kelly. I don't see that happening. Kelly had two years of seasoning in the USFL. He came from a pro style offense in Miami. Losman is extremely raw.

RRich:

They ran a pro style offense at Tulane also. But, I see your point, Frank.

Jeremy:

And if he isn’t then it is just another screw up that TD has made.

RRich:

TD has made a few, hasn't he?

Frank:

Absolutly. TDs moves are coming back to haunt him big time.

RRich:

Like I said earlier, this is all window dressing. THE problem, in my opinion, is the offensive line!!!!!!!!

Jeremy:

Odds are that Losman will NOT be as good as Kelly but we know at this point that we are definitely not going to win with Drew. I just don’t see why you delay the inevitable

Frank:

For the cost of Losman, in my mind, he has to win a Super Bowl someday. I don't think fans will sit there and watch the games as the team goes in knowing they are doing nothing but rebuilding.

Jeremy:

We are not delaying because we are winning. We are not delaying because Drew is even our future as of next year. There is no reason. Fans are not going to be sitting there by the end of this season

RRich:

I will.

Frank:

The tickets are sold. I will be there.

RRich:

The last game is against the Steelers. My wife and I will be there.

Frank:

Arizona will be the only non-sell out. Money is in the coffers.

RRich:

I've been to every Bills-Steelers game at RICH with the exception of the first one.

Jeremy:

So then I guess you will be sitting there to watch then regardless of what QB is playing?

Frank:

Yes sir. I was there for QBs much worse than DB.

Jeremy:

And much worse that Losman could possibly be. So your point was that people won’t sit through that? But now you say they will.

Frank:

No, I am saying the average fan will not sit through a team that they know is playing a raw rookie and will knowingly go 2-14. They will however, buy tickets for a season that looks promising, knowing there is a rookie out there learning the system and ready to take over a team that knows how to be competitive.

Jeremy:

I am tired of a care taker especially one that really can’t take care anyway. I want a chance to have a winner, a QB that makes a difference. A guy that give the offense a spark; Losman is our ONLY hope at that. Frank, you assume that Losman will go 2-14 and be horrible... just like Roethlisberger has been so horrible for Pittsburgh. We are just treading water as a team and by the time we start to swim half the team we have now will be gone and we will be waiting on new rookies to develop at other positions

Frank:

Welcome to the era of free agency and the salary cap. And I didn’t say Roethlisberger has been horrible. Look, answer this. Would you rather have Losman out there behind a team that is struggling, learning to win and making major mistakes or a team with a little bit of continuity, has won a few games and has some confidence? I think if the plan had worked and this team was winning and gaining confidence that Losman would have been put in the best position to succeed next year.

RRich:

You both have valid points. I still say it's the OL!!!!

Frank:

AMEN!

RRich:

With the QBs, you have a debate. With the OL, THERE IS NO DEBATE!!!!

Jeremy:

Can you both admit that Losman would make the OL look better?

RRich:

We sink or swim with who we have. And they suck.

Frank:

There is no depth to this OL. What happens if Teague and Jennings can't go this week? Montana in his prime could not succeed behind this line.

Jeremy:

Which could give receivers more time to get open

Frank:

Avoiding sacks, sure. Maybe we have 10 instead of 15. Making the team win and look better overall. NO, we would still be 0-3

RRich:

Maybe. Maybe not. I can't say. He would avoid sacks better. I agree, Frank. Now, why do we have this problem?

Jeremy:

I don’t know.

RRich:

Tom Donahoe.

Frank:

The heat on TD is growing weekly. He has not addressed the OL or the DE position on this team at all, imo.

Jeremy:

We suck right now and I don’t know that there is anything or anyone on this team that can change that. I do know that Drew Bledsoe is definitely not one of them. I DON’T know that Losman can’t change that but your right, Frank. He would probably get killed too.

RRich:

Too many variables. The problem is widespread. It's not just Bledsoe.

Frank:

But because the team sucks you want to put everything on DB.

RRich:

Who does?

Jeremy:

No one has ever said it was all Bledsoe.

Frank:

Jeremy does.

RRich:

I don't think so. I think he's just reacting to the topic at hand.

Jeremy:

When have I ever said that?

Frank:

That's what I read from the first 30 minutes of this discussion.

Jeremy:

Well your not reading well then

RRich:

That's because you guys are harping on the window dressing.

Frank:

Good point.

Jeremy:

I said that the offensive line sucks and are partly to blame.

Frank:

I say the OL sucks and is 80% to blame.

Jeremy:

80% is overdoing it.

RRich:

Look at it this way: how many success stories like Kurt Warner or Dante Hall or Dominick Davis do you hear about on the offensive line?

Frank:

None around here, Rich.

Jeremy:

If offensive linemen are doing their job, you DON’T hear about them.

RRich:

Good linemen are kept by teams. They don't let them go. Look at Dallas during their SB run.

Frank:

The problem is the best OL-man we have right now is Jennings...injury prone and average. And he might be gone at years end. IMO, we have zero linemen.

RRich:

I don't disagree with that. Even Jennings is not what everyone thinks he is. He's average.

Frank:

And the Bills better not offer him money like Todd Light just got.

RRich:

I'm hoping they don't overpay him.

Jeremy:

I think most of the guys on the line are average some below but if you get a few studs up there I think others are average enough that they will work.

RRich:

We have far too little talent up front. Why?

Frank:

I would like to ask TD that myself Rich.

RRich:

He won't answer you, Frank. He hasn't addressed that to anyone in a long time. It's tough to be at the top and have to admit everyone else is right.

Jeremy:

I think TD has tried to draft and add talent, he has just been horrible at it.

RRich:

Waiting until the first 3-4 rounds is over is adding talent? It's stupid.

Jeremy:

The number 4 pick?

Frank:

I think he got lucky with Jennings. Williams is a bust right now. He is the only guy that they added early.

RRich:

Bad move.

Jeremy:

I would say that he tried to add talent just not good talent

Frank:

I would rather have McKinney or Roy Williams right now. The two guys I wanted on draft day.

Jeremy:

How many offensive lines in the NFL have all 1st and 2nd round picks on them??

RRich:

They don't ALL have to be first rounders. They do, however, have to all be TALENTED!!! Just like passing up on a good interior OL for McGahee is a bad move too.

Frank

: Another wasted pick unless TD gets better than the 23rd overall for Henry.

RRich:

We have no luck in finding guys who can play, whether they're taken in round 1 or signed as undrafted.

Jeremy:

You just said it best RRich. It doesn’t matter where we get these guys from, they just are not performing

Frank:

What was he thinking picking up Teague and making him a center. He was the left tackle in Denver.

RRich:

He was a subpar LT in Denver. Nobody cried a river of tears when he left. They were going to replace him anyway.

Jeremy:

Wow. 50 minutes gone by

RRich:

I want a beer.

Jeremy:

Time flies when your arguing about your crappy team

RRich:

They'll get better.......................one day. Frank: But it is OUR crappy team...rather us than Miami

RRich

: Hey, we've been through worse. Like 8 wins in 3 years. Those were my high school years too.

Frank:

My HS won 3 games in 3 years. We went winless our senior year!

RRich:

Damn! You guys sucked.

Jeremy:

That doesn’t make 3-13, 8-8, 6-10 and whatever this horrible season has in store any better

Frank:

I chuck the 3-13 season...that was a throwaway

Jeremy:

So is this year

RRich:

Throw up, not away.

Jeremy:

Rookie coaches don’t win and neither does Drew Bledsoe

Frank:

Just like rookie QBs.

RRich:

Back to that again. J

eremy:

NO rookie coach has ever won. NONE EVER. Rookie QBs have won

Frank:

NAME ONE!!

Jeremy:

I can’t. lol.

RRich:

Jerry Glanville, John McKay

Jeremy:

Dan Marino almost won, lol.

Frank:

Dan Marino took over half way through season 2, no?

RRich:

What about Gruden? How did he do as a rookie coach?

Jeremy:

No. Pretty sure he was a rookie

Frank:

1983 was Wood-strock. That would make it half way through 1984, his rookie season. How many of those 8 games did he win?

Jeremy:

Hmm, well I am not looking it up

Frank:

Any other rookie QB set the world on fire?

Jeremy:

Kurt Warner

Frank:

BTW, Losman is no Dan Marino either.

RRich:

Manning took the Colts to .500 as a rookie, didn't he? Or am I wrong? I know he threw about 28 picks that year or something like that.

Frank:

You might be right on Manning. Warner was not a rookie. Manning threw for 28 picks? Yuck.

RRich:

It was some crazy number like that.

Jeremy:

He wasn’t an NFL rookie?

Frank:

No, he was in at least 2 training camps.

Jeremy:

Pfff, Training camps, that was the first time he ever made a team though, no?

Frank:

He also played in NFLE and AFL...that is a hell of a lot of experience compared to Losman.

Jeremy:

With a lot less talent.

Frank:

You don’t know that. Warner has a ring. Losman may never have one. You know why he got cut in Green Bay?

RRich:

Racism

Frank:

Warner? Racism?

Jeremy:

What?

Jeremy:

Ok. Now you have my attention. Do tell.

RRich:

As Sgt Hulka would say: lighten up, Francis.

Frank:

Anyway, do you know why Warner was cut in GB?

RRich:

NO.

Jeremy:

No

Frank:

He was number 4 on the depth chart.

RRich:

That makes sense.

Jeremy:

Great story

RRich:

Was Brunell still there then?

Frank:

Behind two guys named Brunell and Favre.

Jeremy:

Wow that is impressive.

Frank:

He never got the chance to even practice.

Jeremy:

Wish we had that

Frank:

GB had more QB talent in those 4 than some teams have in 10 years.

RRich:

Brunell was decent in his heyday.

Frank:

Well guys this was fantastic. The most spirited chat we have had yet.

Jeremy:

I feel like we bitched about Bledsoe too much. That is what people are going to expect from me and you

RRich:

That's because I'm here.

Frank:

Very true Rich. You both made some great points.

RRich:

Not really. I was just repeating what you posted.

Frank:

Ok, guys, predictions for Sunday?

RRich:

The Bills will show up for a game and one team will win.

Frank:

Seriously, predictions for Sunday?

Jeremy:

Jets 24 Bills 13

RRich:

Jets win 20-13

Frank:

I say it depends on the OL. Jets 20-17

RRich:

Spoken like a true prodigy, Frank.

Frank:

Guys, thanks again! I look forward to having you again!