ABout Kelly Holcomb

[patmoran2006]

Now while I certainly am no Kelly Holcomb fan, and I doubt I"d be going to Dick's anytime soon to buy a #10 jersey... I feel to some extent this guy is getting the shaft..

People call him a "journeyman".. Now to some extent this is true. However, throughout his career he's been on teams where he wasn't given an opportunity to beat out the quarterback.

* His first two years in the league he played behind Jim Harbaugh.

* In 1998 he played behind Peyton Manning.

* For the next three seasons he played behind Tim Couch. Cleveland invested the top pick in the draft in Couch and were going to give him every opportunity to be a franchise quarterback. Coincidentally, in 2002 the Browns only playoff appearance, Holcomb threw for 429 yards and 3 TD's in a loss to Pittsburgh.

* In 2004 he was stuck behind Free Agent "savior" Jeff Garcia in Cleveland. He played in four games and his stats were actually much better than Garcia's. He competed 67.8% of his passes that season and had 7 TD's and 5 Int's.

* With Buffalo in 2005, I dont even need to get into because the entire team was a mess. Still, He did complete 67.4% of his passes and still had more TD's (10) than INT's (8) and that's even with the four int fiasco in New York in week 17.

NOw while he'll never be confused with a Troy Aikman or Dan Fouts, quit treating the guy like he's Joe Dufek of Matt Kofler. Put it this way, I've seen a hell of a lot worse QB'ing in recent Bills history.. Do the names Rob Johnson, Todd Collins and Billy Goat Hobert ring a bell?

DO I think Holcomb DESERVES to be the starter? HELL NO.. But I think he deserves the SAME opportunity as JP Losman, Craig Nall or anybody else..> This "you already know what your going to get" stuff is pure crap.. NOBODY was going to suceed on this team the way it was run last year.

I hope JP wins the job, but if he doesn't I'm confident HOlcomb can take advantage of having more speedy receivers and a much better offensive line than 2005.

[Philagape]

I've said before that Holcomb is a good backup. He's not horrible, but he's not good enough to justify stunting the growth of a promising prospect. We DO know what we're going to get out of him ... he played pretty much as expected last year. No matter what's around him, he still has no arm and no mobility. He's accurate with short throws and cool under pressure. What's not to know?

[Turf]

4th and 17 or whatever the hell it was and an end of the game play, and he throws a 2 yard safety release pass to Moulds. That says it all for me. He doesn't have it nor will he ever. A veteran with his years should have known better. Will everyone get over Holcomb, he's a wasted idea.

[patmoran2006]

I"m not suggesting Holcomb SHOULD be the starter.. I'm suggesting Losman shouldn't just be HANDED the job because of his "upside".

If HOlcomb is so bad, and "we know what we're going to get' .. Then JP Losman should have NO Problem beating him out in camp.. If he cannot, then JP should start selling insurance or something.

[Philagape]

The question is, should JP be judged by what he has now, or what they think he'll have this season after getting more real game experience? Should upside be a factor? I say yes, but I'm not the coach.

[patmoran2006]

I think this is the biggest misperception going right now..

Bills fans and the media think this is a team in rebuilding mode and we're playing for the future.

The Bills brass TRULY thinks this team was formed to win NOW, and for that reason, they will go with the quarterback who's best in camp and gives them the best chance to win on Sunday, not the quarterback who has more potential and upside.

again, I am among the masses that hope JP wins the job.. But apparently I'm in the minority that think Holcomb is going to get a REAL Chance to win the job, and they're not just putting a "scare" into JP and going through the motions of saying the QB spot is an open competition.

[jamze132]

I think this is the biggest misperception going right now..

Bills fans and the media think this is a team in rebuilding mode and we're playing for the future.

The Bills brass TRULY thinks this team was formed to win NOW, and for that reason, they will go with the quarterback who's best in camp and gives them the best chance to win on Sunday, not the quarterback who has more potential and upside.

again, I am among the masses that hope JP wins the job.. But apparently I'm in the minority that think Holcomb is going to get a REAL Chance to win the job, and they're not just putting a "scare" into JP and going through the motions of saying the QB spot is an open competition.
I highly doubt that the Bills FO think that this team is built to win right now. It doesn't bode well for them if they think they have all the pieces in place.

[djjimkelly]

ILL GIVE A TIDBIT ABOUT KELLY HOMOBUM HE BLOWS. ABSOLUTELY NO UPSIDE A CLASSIC DUMP OFF QB. THAT UNLESS EVERYONE AROUND HIM MAKES PLAYS NONE WILL BE MADE.

[Mr. Cynical]

Fact - KH has had his chances over a 10 year span and has never been able to lock the starting job.
Reason - he isn't very good.
Result - he's a career backup.

End of story.

[Mr. Pink]

Fact - KH has had his chances over an 11 year span and has never been able to get the starting job.
Reason - he isn't very good.
Result - he's a career backup.

End of story.


Actually the real reason he hasn't held on to a starting job is because he's prone to injury. So at least use proper facts. Tim Couch got the job back in Cleveland because? KH got hurt. JP Losman got the job back here because? KH got hurt. KH never lost a starting gig because he "isn't very good" as you put it.

Now is KH a good qb? No, not really. But what he is, is a guy who effectively manages the game and if he has proper weapons around him can be more than effective in leading a team to victories. He has momentary lapses at times of giving up the big pick but he can dink and dunk you all the way down the field with an effecient running game behind you and lead you to points. He is a classic ball control, clock eating QB. As noticed by the difference in TOP the Bills had last year between him and JP. And we all know that the less the opposing team is on the field, the less they can score. Basically what you get in KH is a younger version of Trent Dilfer.

In Indy he was never unseating Harbaugh nor Manning, so he never got the chance there.

Little history lesson for some people who don't like dink and dunk passers and think they're no good. Fran Tarkenton was a dink and dunk guy and he did pretty well in this league.

[BillsFever21]

If he was any good then why did them teams even bother drafting younger QB's to play ahead of him? If they thought he was any good they would've looked elsewhere in the draft and gave him the starting nod.

[The_Philster]

If he was any good then why did them teams even bother drafting younger QB's to play ahead of him? If they thought he was any good they would've looked elsewhere in the draft and gave him the starting nod.
:bf1: That's the big thing right there. If he was really starting material, Peyton Manning wouldn't be a Colt.
Cleveland really isn't relevant...Couch was in Cleveland for 2 years before Holcomb joined him.

[John Doe]

I think this is the biggest misperception going right now..

Bills fans and the media think this is a team in rebuilding mode and we're playing for the future.

The Bills brass TRULY thinks this team was formed to win NOW, and for that reason, they will go with the quarterback who's best in camp and gives them the best chance to win on Sunday, not the quarterback who has more potential and upside.


Exactly right. There is a lot of talent on the team right now. The offensive line looks to be highly mobile and has the potential to be good this year, and there is talent at the skill positions to go along with it. The team will probably only start one rookie, although McCargo will see as much playing time as a starter.

There is absolutely no reason to give up on this season as a "rebuilding" year.

[BillsFever21]

Exactly right. There is a lot of talent on the team right now. The offensive line looks to be highly mobile and has the potential to be good this year, and there is talent at the skill positions to go along with it. The team will probably only start one rookie, although McCargo will see as much playing time as a starter.

There is absolutely no reason to give up on this season as a "rebuilding" year.

This team has less talent then it did last year. Kelly Holcomb couldn't cut it last season. Why should anything change this season?

This team has some good talent but it far from a team that has "a lot of talent"

Maybe in the eyes of a fan the team has a ton of talent. In reality though this team isn't anywhere close to the playoff caliber teams.

The roster wasn't considered to be very spectacular last season and we lost about 4 good starters since then and either replaced them with players not up to their ability or rookies who have never stepped on the field.

[YardRat]

Losman, Holcomb, Nall....may the best player win.

[TacklingDummy]

4th and 17 or whatever the hell it was and an end of the game play, and he throws a 2 yard safety release pass to Moulds. That says it all for me.

People like to bring this crap up about Holcomb COMPLETING a pass to Moulds short of a first down when it was 4th and 7.

What did JP do when the Bills were playing Carolina, down 13-9? The last drive of the game Losman throws a INTERCEPTION. Game over.

Atleast Holcomb gave one of our playmakers a chance to get a 1st down. Losman throws a horrible pass to end the game.

[Jan Reimers]

Holcomb is immobile, weak-armed and fumble prone. He is a decent backup, but I'll never understand why ANYONE wants him to be our starter.

[HHURRICANE]

I've said before that Holcomb is a good backup. He's not horrible, but he's not good enough to justify stunting the growth of a promising prospect. We DO know what we're going to get out of him ... he played pretty much as expected last year. No matter what's around him, he still has no arm and no mobility. He's accurate with short throws and cool under pressure. What's not to know?

That pretty much sums it up!!

[Stewie]

People like to bring this crap up about Holcomb COMPLETING a pass to Moulds short of a first down when it was 4th and 7.

What did JP do when the Bills were playing Carolina, down 13-9? The last drive of the game Losman throws a INTERCEPTION. Game over.

Atleast Holcomb gave one of our playmakers a chance to get a 1st down. Losman throws a horrible pass to end the game.

It was pass interference.

:D

[John Doe]

This team has less talent then it did last year. Kelly Holcomb couldn't cut it last season. Why should anything change this season?

This team has some good talent but it far from a team that has "a lot of talent"

Maybe in the eyes of a fan the team has a ton of talent. In reality though this team isn't anywhere close to the playoff caliber teams.

The roster wasn't considered to be very spectacular last season and we lost about 4 good starters since then and either replaced them with players not up to their ability or rookies who have never stepped on the field.

I stand by my description of the team. The offensive line will be much better than last year with Peters going into training camp as the starter along with good replacements for Anderson and Teague. Plus we have a bona-fide blocker at tight end (I hope that Campbell was not one of the “four good starters”).

The only starter that will be missed is Eric Moulds, and he is on the downside of his career. Adams and Milloy could not function in the new defense (try to imagine Adams running sideline to sideline). The drafted players are untested, but they sure look good on paper. That may not be enough for some people, but it gives me enough hope to not quit on the season before it begins.

I am also convinced that the coaching staff is far superior to last year’s and the systems that they bring to the table are far more practical. Last year’s use of McGahee as a battering ram was the height of stupidity.

A team can’t exceed expectations if it is not given the opportunity to do so.

[Michael82]

People like to bring this crap up about Holcomb COMPLETING a pass to Moulds short of a first down when it was 4th and 7.

What did JP do when the Bills were playing Carolina, down 13-9? The last drive of the game Losman throws a INTERCEPTION. Game over.

Atleast Holcomb gave one of our playmakers a chance to get a 1st down. Losman throws a horrible pass to end the game.
Do you want to go there? What did Holcomb do against the Jets in week 17? How many interceptions and horrible passes did he throw? :scratch:

[Mr. Cynical]

Little history lesson for some people who don't like dink and dunk passers and think they're no good. Fran Tarkenton was a dink and dunk guy and he did pretty well in this league.

Another little history lesson - Tarkenton was a 9 time probowler QB known for his SCRAMBLING ability and who threw for over 47K yards, landing him in the HoF. Comparing him to an immobile, 10 year career backup who can't cut it as a starter is beyond silly.

[TacklingDummy]

Do you want to go there? What did Holcomb do against the Jets in week 17? How many interceptions and horrible passes did he throw? :scratch:

You mean the Jet game where the Bills had it won until the special teams blew it? :)

[The_Philster]

4th and 7
Holcomb...4 yards...game over
Losman...9 yards...drive continues

NUFF SAID!!

[TacklingDummy]

4th and 7
Holcomb...4 yards...game over
Losman...9 yards...drive continues

NUFF SAID!!

Holcomb..4th and 7, a Completion to a playmaker, doesn't work.
Losman, score 13-9, 4th Qtr. Jp drops back to pass, INTERCEPTION, game over

NUFF SAID!!

[Mr. Pink]

Another little history lesson - Tarkenton was a 9 time probowler QB known for his SCRAMBLING ability and who threw for over 47K yards, landing him in the HoF. Comparing him to an immobile, 10 year career backup who can't cut it as a starter is beyond silly.


But comparing JP to Marino, Elway, Young, Manning is fine, right?

Which is so often done on these boards.

[patmoran2006]

Fact - KH has had his chances over a 10 year span and has never been able to lock the starting job.
Reason - he isn't very good.
Result - he's a career backup.

End of story.

Exactly WHEN was he given these chances to be able to lock the starting job?

[BillsFever21]

Exactly WHEN was he given these chances to be able to lock the starting job?

He was in camps for 10 years. He was never good enough to secure a starting spot on that team or some of the other 31 teams who may have needed a starting QB.

He couldn't lock one up against Couch even after Couch's time was just about done in Cleveland. Then he had a golden opportunity when Couch was released. Instead Cleveland thought so low of him they brought somebody else in.

Had Holcomb been good enough he would've won a starting job in Cleveland or had a chance somewhere else in the league who were desperate for QB's.

I don't know who's posts and/or articles are worse at times around here and there are plenty.

[TigerJ]

I"m not suggesting Holcomb SHOULD be the starter.. I'm suggesting Losman shouldn't just be HANDED the job because of his "upside".

If HOlcomb is so bad, and "we know what we're going to get' .. Then JP Losman should have NO Problem beating him out in camp.. If he cannot, then JP should start selling insurance or something.

Agreed. I don't think Holcomb can carry a team that has little talent. There are a few QBs that might be able to do a little something with little talent around him, moreso than Holcomb can, but that's not a huge knock against him. Give Holcomb a lot of solid talent and he can win (ie. not hurt the team). Still, I'd like to see Losman win (not be handed) the QB job because I think his athleticism gives him upside Holcomb can't even dream about. The problem with the Bills right now is they don't have that much PROVEN talent on the offence yet. They have a cocky young running back who thus far has been an underachiever relative to his talent, one proven starting WR and several chances for contributions from others, a castoff TE competing with a second year undrafted player and a second year guy coming off a major knee reconstruction. The line consists of two holdover starters from last year (neither of whom has a notable pedigree) two guys from other teams who started some games, but weren't valuable enough for those eams to keep them, and one guy who would have started for the Bills had he not been injured for almost the whole season. Maybe the Bills and Holcomb (or Losman) can win with a supporting cast like that, but it would be foolish to go into the season putting a boatload of money on the idea Buffalo will be an offensive juggernaut.

[shelby]

i do not want Holcomb to be our starting QB.
That being said, i remember a career backup QB who engineered the greatest comeback in NFL history, Frank Reich.
There is something to be said for having a solid backup QB.

[John Doe]

Agreed. I don't think Holcomb can carry a team that has little talent. There are a few QBs that might be able to do a little something with little talent around him, moreso than Holcomb can, but that's not a huge knock against him. Give Holcomb a lot of solid talent and he can win (ie. not hurt the team). Still, I'd like to see Losman win (not be handed) the QB job because I think his athleticism gives him upside Holcomb can't even dream about. The problem with the Bills right now is they don't have that much PROVEN talent on the offence yet. They have a cocky young running back who thus far has been an underachiever relative to his talent, one proven starting WR and several chances for contributions from others, a castoff TE competing with a second year undrafted player and a second year guy coming off a major knee reconstruction. The line consists of two holdover starters from last year (neither of whom has a notable pedigree) two guys from other teams who started some games, but weren't valuable enough for those eams to keep them, and one guy who would have started for the Bills had he not been injured for almost the whole season. Maybe the Bills and Holcomb (or Losman) can win with a supporting cast like that, but it would be foolish to go into the season putting a boatload of money on the idea Buffalo will be an offensive juggernaut.

Completely pessimistic.

Although it may be true that Willis has not played up to his potential, that performance may have more to do with the offensive philosophy of the previous coaching staff than it does with McGahee. He seldom had a chance to play in space - using him as a battering ram did not suit his strengths at all. Yet, he still managed two consecutive 1,000 yard seasons.

Portraying Royal as a castoff is hardly accurate. The reports were that Washington would have liked to keep him, and the Bills had to pay plenty to secure him. And just because Cieslak was undrafted has nothing to do with how well he may perform. He certainly has impressed the coaching staff so far.

One proven starter at wide receiver? Reed has averaged over 35 receptions per year over 4 years, and Price has had a 94 reception year along with several other very productive seasons. Evans looks like the real deal to me – I am very comfortable with him as a #1.

I don’t care what the “pedigree” is, Peters is a tremendous athlete who looked good last year and will only get better. Gandy had a solid year despite having to play next to one of the worst guards in the league (Anderson). Reyes was a solid starter for a good team who became expendable to a younger cheaper player. Fowler (a much more natural center than his predecessor), appears to be an athletic player entering his prime who performed well last season by all of the accounts that I have read. There will be no rookie starters, plus we have an offensive line coach who is known for getting the best play out of his men. The depth appears to be much better than in previous years as well.

There is plenty of potential for success here. I think that it can all come together quite well if one of the QBs takes charge in the preseason and wins the job outright.

[Mr. Cynical]

Question:


Exactly WHEN was he given these chances to be able to lock the starting job?

Answer:


He was in camps for 10 years. He was never good enough to secure a starting spot on that team or some of the other 31 teams who may have needed a starting QB.

He couldn't lock one up against Couch even after Couch's time was just about done in Cleveland. Then he had a golden opportunity when Couch was released. Instead Cleveland thought so low of him they brought somebody else in.

Had Holcomb been good enough he would've won a starting job in Cleveland or had a chance somewhere else in the league who were desperate for QB's.

I don't know who's posts and/or articles are worse at times around here and there are plenty.

:up:

[justasportsfan]

I actually think the KH can do better than he did last year. He worked w/ the 2nd and 3rd team at camp. It was his first year with players/system he wasn't very familiar with and an OL that didn't charge defenses cover charge to sack the qb.

With that being said, I still hope it's JP. I'd be confident in having a back up like Holcomb.

[Bill Cody]

Fact - KH has had his chances over a 10 year span and has never been able to lock the starting job.
Reason - he isn't very good.
Result - he's a career backup.

End of story.

In 10 years Losman will be selling flood insurance in New Orleans. End of story.

[Bill Cody]

Completely pessimistic.

I thought Tiger was fairly optimistic.


Although it may be true that Willis has not played up to his potential, that performance may have more to do with the offensive philosophy of the previous coaching staff than it does with McGahee. He seldom had a chance to play in space - using him as a battering ram did not suit his strengths at all. Yet, he still managed two consecutive 1,000 yard seasons.

Willis had a bad year last year. There's no denying it and it's mostly on him. He sure didn't play like "the best running back in the NFL". And 1000 yards in a 16 game schedule is 62 yards a week. Be still my heart.


Portraying Royal as a castoff is hardly accurate. The reports were that Washington would have liked to keep him, and the Bills had to pay plenty to secure him. And just because Cieslak was undrafted has nothing to do with how well he may perform. He certainly has impressed the coaching staff so far.

Please. Dan Snyder would write a check for the janitor if he thought he could help. The Redskins overpay everyone. Royal may end up being a good player but the fact is if the Redskins seriously wanted him he'd be there right now.


One proven starter at wide receiver? Reed has averaged over 35 receptions per year over 4 years, and Price has had a 94 reception year along with several other very productive seasons. Evans looks like the real deal to me – I am very comfortable with him as a #1.

Evans is the real deal. Reed sucks- plain and simple. Price isn't the player he was in 2002. We have one guy and a bunch of question marks.


I don’t care what the “pedigree” is, Peters is a tremendous athlete who looked good last year and will only get better. Gandy had a solid year despite having to play next to one of the worst guards in the league (Anderson). Reyes was a solid starter for a good team who became expendable to a younger cheaper player. Fowler (a much more natural center than his predecessor), appears to be an athletic player entering his prime who performed well last season by all of the accounts that I have read. There will be no rookie starters, plus we have an offensive line coach who is known for getting the best play out of his men. The depth appears to be much better than in previous years as well.

I pretty much agree with this. But it's going to take some time for this unit to gell.


There is plenty of potential for success here. I think that it can all come together quite well if one of the QBs takes charge in the preseason and wins the job outright.

This team is very young and still missing some key parts, QB being one of them. The potential is there to be entertaining but we're not a playoff caliber team.

[TigerJ]

Completely pessimistic.

Although it may be true that Willis has not played up to his potential, that performance may have more to do with the offensive philosophy of the previous coaching staff than it does with McGahee. He seldom had a chance to play in space - using him as a battering ram did not suit his strengths at all. Yet, he still managed two consecutive 1,000 yard seasons.

Portraying Royal as a castoff is hardly accurate. The reports were that Washington would have liked to keep him, and the Bills had to pay plenty to secure him. And just because Cieslak was undrafted has nothing to do with how well he may perform. He certainly has impressed the coaching staff so far.

One proven starter at wide receiver? Reed has averaged over 35 receptions per year over 4 years, and Price has had a 94 reception year along with several other very productive seasons. Evans looks like the real deal to me – I am very comfortable with him as a #1.

I don’t care what the “pedigree” is, Peters is a tremendous athlete who looked good last year and will only get better. Gandy had a solid year despite having to play next to one of the worst guards in the league (Anderson). Reyes was a solid starter for a good team who became expendable to a younger cheaper player. Fowler (a much more natural center than his predecessor), appears to be an athletic player entering his prime who performed well last season by all of the accounts that I have read. There will be no rookie starters, plus we have an offensive line coach who is known for getting the best play out of his men. The depth appears to be much better than in previous years as well.

There is plenty of potential for success here. I think that it can all come together quite well if one of the QBs takes charge in the preseason and wins the job outright.

Actually, I'm generally thought of as an optimist around here, I think. Though he doesn't have a pedegree, I trust what Jim McNally says about Peters and I agree he did play well last season. I like the offseason acquisitions Marv Levy made. I think enough of them will pay off to make the national observers who rank Buffalo at the bottom of the league, or close to it start to question their assessment by midseason. I would rather err on the side of caution for a while, though, because there are a lot of questions that need to be answered. It will take some time for the line to gel. The new offensive and defensive systems may take a while before they click. I think in 2007 the Bills will be a team to be reckoned with, but for 2006 I would rather start out cautious and raise my hopes later than be too effusive in my optimism and have to pull back at midseason.