Losman must have impressed!!

[HHURRICANE]

This is the problem with Losman league wide. Nobody has really watched him play unless you are from Buffalo. In addition, you had the veterans last year complaining that we should have started Holcomb. So what happens? Places like ESPN radio, NFL Network, Sirrius, look at Losman's numbers (behind poor play calling and a terrible OL), and what the veterans are saying, and draw the conclusion that this kid is washed up before he even gets started. Don't believe for a second that Marv and Jauron hadn't drawn the same conclusion.

So my point is this. I believe that Jauron had every intention of starting Holcomb. Once camps started I think it was hard not to see the amount of talent that Losman has. He is the best athlete of the three and with another year under his belt I am sure he is doing better with his reads. I think Losamn impressed everyone and that is why a starter was not announced!

[John Doe]

I think that you might be right.

[TacklingDummy]

I think Dick is going to wait till pre-season and a couple of pre-season games before he actually announces who the starter will be.

It probably will be Losman, because like you said, he is the more talented of the 3. And if he can't beat out Nall or Holcomb then there is a problem. Talent does only get you so far though.

A QB can be a ALL-Pro practice QB but come game time look completly different. That's why I think Dick waits till preseason games to announce who starts.

[Mr. Miyagi]

This is the problem with Losman league wide. Nobody has really watched him play unless you are from Buffalo. In addition, you had the veterans last year complaining that we should have started Holcomb. So what happens? Places like ESPN radio, NFL Network, Sirrius, look at Losman's numbers (behind poor play calling and a terrible OL), and what the veterans are saying, and draw the conclusion that this kid is washed up before he even gets started. Don't believe for a second that Marv and Jauron hadn't drawn the same conclusion.

So my point is this. I believe that Jauron had every intention of starting Holcomb. Once camps started I think it was hard not to see the amount of talent that Losman has. He is the best athlete of the three and with another year under his belt I am sure he is doing better with his reads. I think Losamn impressed everyone and that is why a starter was not announced!
You hit the nail on the head. I never understood how a guy with only 8 games under his belt can be widely considered a "bust" already, while guys like Eli Manning, Alex Smith, Charlie Frye, Jason Campbell, Kyle Boller, Rex Grossman, even David Carr and Josh McCown are all considered to have a lot of "potential".

:rolleyes:

[ScottLawrence]

I think thats what you are really hoping for, so your just saying it to make yourself feel better.

[ICE74129]

I think thats what you are really hoping for, so your just saying it to make yourself feel better.
Ah yes the holcombite is back. Sorry your boy is getting benched, so why not go back to wherever you were hiding because JP will be our QB this year.

[ibatiger]

This is the problem with Losman league wide. Nobody has really watched him play unless you are from Buffalo. In addition, you had the veterans last year complaining that we should have started Holcomb. So what happens? Places like ESPN radio, NFL Network, Sirrius, look at Losman's numbers (behind poor play calling and a terrible OL), and what the veterans are saying, and draw the conclusion that this kid is washed up before he even gets started. Don't believe for a second that Marv and Jauron hadn't drawn the same conclusion.

So my point is this. I believe that Jauron had every intention of starting Holcomb. Once camps started I think it was hard not to see the amount of talent that Losman has. He is the best athlete of the three and with another year under his belt I am sure he is doing better with his reads. I think Losamn impressed everyone and that is why a starter was not announced!

The starter hasn't been announced yet because the competition is far from being over. As far as what Jauron thought coming in, I doubt that he was thinking about Holcomb starting. He brought in Nall, so if anything he might be thinking Nall. And then after Nall got up with the others in the offense (as you know he was 2+ months behind them in learning the offense) and by all accounts had the best week of practice at the minicamp last week, Jauron now says he has an idea about who the starter might be. Hmmm. The circumstantial evidence would seem to point to Nall, if you ask me. I certainly hope so, because I think he is the most talented of the three and would make the best starter. But, having said all of that it will still probably not be settled until after one or two preseason games. I'd put it at about 75% that it will be either Losman or Nall.

[mayotm]

I think thats what you are really hoping for, so your just saying it to make yourself feel better.Any true Bills fan should be hoping that Losman WINS the job. That would likely mean they have found their QB of the future. Holcomb is a solid backup and nothing more. He will never lead the Bills to the playoffs.

[X-Era]

This is the problem with Losman league wide. Nobody has really watched him play unless you are from Buffalo. In addition, you had the veterans last year complaining that we should have started Holcomb. So what happens? Places like ESPN radio, NFL Network, Sirrius, look at Losman's numbers (behind poor play calling and a terrible OL), and what the veterans are saying, and draw the conclusion that this kid is washed up before he even gets started. Don't believe for a second that Marv and Jauron hadn't drawn the same conclusion.

So my point is this. I believe that Jauron had every intention of starting Holcomb. Once camps started I think it was hard not to see the amount of talent that Losman has. He is the best athlete of the three and with another year under his belt I am sure he is doing better with his reads. I think Losamn impressed everyone and that is why a starter was not announced!

I think this whole thing is half game and half truth.

Half game- the biggest complaint much of the media and fans had about Losman last year was that the job was handed to him outright, he didnt have to compete. What if Dick thinks Losmans the guy he wants to start from day one due to JP having the best ability and highest potential. Would he simply announce day one that JP is the starter before camp? That would seem to be stupid. Dick knows many fans and the media wants a competition and is willing to simply keep his eventual naming of JP as the starter a secret to appease this.

Half truth- The part that IS real about this is that if you allow everyone to compete, you just may find someone else ends up winning. In this way, you can have your favorite (JP) stowed away in your head as the most liekly starter, but still allow everyone else to think theres a competition. If someone other than JP steps way up and takes it, you can go with that guy and no one is any the wiser.

Judging by the poll here and about the Pats opener, the majority wants JP to start. But if he was given it outright, the fans could complain that he never had to compete again. But if we pick JP as the starter, after a long competition, and JP faulters, we can say hes the best on the team and that we are starting our best QB and then site him winning the competition.

I believe this thing was over before it started. JP was one thing Holcomb will never have, an unknown future.

There has been more than enough evidence with Holcomb to prove he wont lead your team anywhere. But JP has unproven potential and the unknown hope will drive a team to take the risk.

[McNasty21]

Or maybe he'll pull a Mularky and not say at all? It gives us the "advantage" as he always said (****ing ******!)

[YardRat]

I think Dick and Marv truly want someone to rise to the top on their own through the QB competition, and there are no games being played.

They would be foolish not to hope JP realizes his potential, but they are also intelligent enough to know that JP has to earn it, and if he can't, they kept a capable veteran in the wings to babysit the position just in case. They also covered all their bases by getting a 'tweener' in Nall...physical tools better than Holcomb but not as strong as JP, and perhaps a mental grasp of the game better than Losman, but not as much as Holcomb.

Whoever wins the QB competition come pre-season, the team will not only be better for it this year, but be better prepared to deal with the ramifications in the future.

If it's Losman or Nall, the future may take care of itself...if it's Holcomb, we need to look for another young guy.

[TacklingDummy]

I believe this thing was over before it started. JP was one thing Holcomb will never have, an unknown future.



The "future" is Week 1 of the regular season. Whoever's give's the Bills the best chance to win, starts. Who that is? No one knows. It's all guessing right now. Sure JP could be a favorite of Dick right now, or maybe Nall or Holcomb is. That could all change come the pre-season games.

Holcomb could look great in the pre-season games while Nall and JP both blow, JP could look great in the pre-season games while Holcomb and Nall Blow, Nall could look great in pre-season games while JP and Holcomb blow.

Who ever looks the best in the pre-season games should be the starter come week 1.

Here's a question for a Losmanite, JP during the pre-season goes somewhere around 25 of 70, 250 yards 1 TD 4 INTS, while Nall or Holcomb go 40 of 70, 450 yards, 4 TDs, 2 INTs, who gets the start opening day?

[TedMock]

...I think he is the most talented of the three and would make the best starter.

Nall? He might be the most talented, but how do we know that? I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I'm trying to figure out what you're basing this opinion on. Obviously, we know what Holcomb gives us, but as for Losman and Nall, we have no idea. We know a little more about Losman. In the end, because we know what Holcomb gives us, I agree that we should hope for Losman or Nall to get the nod.

[ICE74129]

The "future" is Week 1 of the regular season. Whoever's give's the Bills the best chance to win, starts. Who that is? No one knows. It's all guessing right now. Sure JP could be a favorite of Dick right now, or maybe Nall or Holcomb is. That could all change come the pre-season games.

Holcomb could look great in the pre-season games while Nall and JP both blow, JP could look great in the pre-season games while Holcomb and Nall Blow, Nall could look great in pre-season games while JP and Holcomb blow.

Who ever looks the best in the pre-season games should be the starter come week 1.

Here's a question for a Losmanite, JP during the pre-season goes somewhere around 25 of 70, 250 yards 1 TD 4 INTS, while Nall or Holcomb go 40 of 70, 450 yards, 4 TDs, 2 INTs, who gets the start opening day?

No holcomb if you want to win. This isn't a team for holcomb. He is past any prime he might have had (he never had one worth mentioning) and this team is rebuilding. It JPs team regardless.

[X-Era]

The "future" is Week 1 of the regular season. Whoever's give's the Bills the best chance to win, starts. Who that is? No one knows. It's all guessing right now. Sure JP could be a favorite of Dick right now, or maybe Nall or Holcomb is. That could all change come the pre-season games.

Holcomb could look great in the pre-season games while Nall and JP both blow, JP could look great in the pre-season games while Holcomb and Nall Blow, Nall could look great in pre-season games while JP and Holcomb blow.

Who ever looks the best in the pre-season games should be the starter come week 1.

Here's a question for a Losmanite, JP during the pre-season goes somewhere around 25 of 70, 250 yards 1 TD 4 INTS, while Nall or Holcomb go 40 of 70, 450 yards, 4 TDs, 2 INTs, who gets the start opening day?

To answer a question with a question, how much stock do you put into good or bad play during garbage time against vanilla defenses?

It isnt about what has been proven on the field, or what might be proven on the field in the preseason. Its about starting the QB who gives you the best chance to win, not a game, or even a string of games, but to get to and win a Superbowl. There is NO purpose is starting a QB who takes you 5 and 11 while not developing your QB who could take you to the SB. It was clear last year, its clear now. If Holcomb was all we needed, why was he so bad? why didnt he take us to the playoffs? He didnt, he was bad, and has no upside. The Pats game proves it all, to move the ball that well, only go up 3 to 0 at the half and then lose, or the 4 ints game against the clowny Jets. Thats NOT a SB or even playoff caliper QB!

Right now NEITHER QB is good enough to take this team to the playoffs. However, the guy most likely to do it in the future is JP Losman. Holcomb has had his time, he squandered it due to a lack of talent. Nall doesnt hold a candle to Losmans upside.

The choice is clear, start and play your best chance at a SB worthy QB, thats Losman.

The ultimate point is that the fans on both this site and BB.com have made it clear overhwelmingly that JP is the guy that they want to start.

[patmoran2006]

I love when some people "groan" at a comment when it makes very logical sense. It just shows the value of such things..

"If I dont personally agree with your assesment, I'm going to 'groan" you."

GAY.

[TacklingDummy]

Here's a question for a Losmanite, JP during the pre-season goes somewhere around 25 of 70, 250 yards 1 TD 4 INTS, while Nall or Holcomb go 40 of 70, 450 yards, 4 TDs, 2 INTs, who gets the start opening day?

Still waiting, Losmanites.

[TacklingDummy]

The ultimate point is that the fans on both this site and BB.com have made it clear overhwelmingly that JP is the guy that they want to start.

I to would like to see JP start if he deserves to.

[ublinkwescore]

Here's a question for a Losmanite, JP during the pre-season goes somewhere around 25 of 70, 250 yards 1 TD 4 INTS, while Nall or Holcomb go 40 of 70, 450 yards, 4 TDs, 2 INTs, who gets the start opening day?

Still waiting, Losmanites.

I'd be willing to bet you some ZBs that he will do significantly better than that.

[TacklingDummy]

I'd be willing to bet you some ZBs that he will do significantly better than that.

What do you call significantly better? And how much? And If he doesn't do better then that, does he get named starter Week 1?

Last pre-season Losman was 38 of 70, 352 yards, 1 TD, 2 INTs

Holcomb 29 of 36, 278 yards, 0 Tds 0 Ints

[X-Era]

I to would like to see JP start if he deserves to.

This is a step in the right direction for you. GIve him a damn chance, not 4 games, a whole season. Should we tolerate 2 seasons with no improvement? no. But should we let the damn kid play and see if he gets better? yes.

[YardRat]

This is a step in the right direction for you. GIve him a damn chance, not 4 games, a whole season. Should we tolerate 2 seasons with no improvement? no. But should we let the damn kid play and see if he gets better? yes.

He needs to earn it first...during training camp and the pre-season.

If he can't beat out the other two for the starting position by then, then he deserves nothing, and it's his own damn fault he doesn't get to play in the regular season to 'get better'.

[John Doe]

He needs to earn it first...during training camp and the pre-season.

If he can't beat out the other two for the starting position by then, then he deserves nothing, and it's his own damn fault he doesn't get to play in the regular season to 'get better'.

Exactly right.

[Michael82]

Or maybe he'll pull a Mularky and not say at all? It gives us the "advantage" as he always said (****ing ******!)
:lmao:

[TigerJ]

I really hope Losman wins the QB battle, I'm not prepared to read into happenings at OBD to anywhere hear the extent you have. I hope that a starter has not been named because Losman has been impressive, but it could just as well be due to Nall and Holcomb disappoionting the new bosses at OBD.

[X-Era]

He needs to earn it first...during training camp and the pre-season.

If he can't beat out the other two for the starting position by then, then he deserves nothing, and it's his own damn fault he doesn't get to play in the regular season to 'get better'.

So, using your equation, Losman looks good enough to win the job. But, as all of us should expect, he does some struggling when the bullets fly. But since he won the job through training camp, hes the starter for the season? No one will clamor for Holcomb again? Thats a joke and everyone knows it. You non-Losman fans, wont get behind him unless he looks as good as peyton manning.

The time for him to earn his right to start is while hes playing regular season games. The fans, media, and coaches should have the nards to stand by him when he has bad games, he will. The thing that should keep us all behind him is the fact that there is NO better option and we will go nowhere with either of the other 2 starting. Holcomb proved hes not worthy last year and through his whole career.

Losman represents a chance at glory in the future. But it cannot be realized without him playing. Neither of the other two options have it in them to lead us to a Superbowl win.....Start the road back to glory now!

[billsburgh]

Here's a question for a Losmanite, JP during the pre-season goes somewhere around 25 of 70, 250 yards 1 TD 4 INTS, while Nall or Holcomb go 40 of 70, 450 yards, 4 TDs, 2 INTs, who gets the start opening day?

Still waiting, Losmanites.
in that case, it should be Holcomb if he performs better than JP

[ublinkwescore]

What do you call significantly better? And how much? And If he doesn't do better then that, does he get named starter Week 1?

Last pre-season Losman was 38 of 70, 352 yards, 1 TD, 2 INTs

Holcomb 29 of 36, 278 yards, 0 Tds 0 Ints

I'll go out on a limb here and bet you that he'll have at least as many TDs as INTs.... SCRATCH THAT - he'll have at least 2 more TDs than INTs. (not twice as many - but if he throws 3 INTs this preseason, he'll throw for at least 5 TDs).

And he'll complete at least 55% of his passes - is that fair?

and the bet will be for $500 ZBs?

Do you accept?

[LifetimeBillsFan]

This is the problem with Losman league wide. Nobody has really watched him play unless you are from Buffalo. In addition, you had the veterans last year complaining that we should have started Holcomb. So what happens? Places like ESPN radio, NFL Network, Sirrius, look at Losman's numbers (behind poor play calling and a terrible OL), and what the veterans are saying, and draw the conclusion that this kid is washed up before he even gets started. Don't believe for a second that Marv and Jauron hadn't drawn the same conclusion.

So my point is this. I believe that Jauron had every intention of starting Holcomb. Once camps started I think it was hard not to see the amount of talent that Losman has. He is the best athlete of the three and with another year under his belt I am sure he is doing better with his reads. I think Losamn impressed everyone and that is why a starter was not announced!


The starter hasn't been announced yet because the competition is far from being over. As far as what Jauron thought coming in, I doubt that he was thinking about Holcomb starting. He brought in Nall, so if anything he might be thinking Nall. And then after Nall got up with the others in the offense (as you know he was 2+ months behind them in learning the offense) and by all accounts had the best week of practice at the minicamp last week, Jauron now says he has an idea about who the starter might be. Hmmm. The circumstantial evidence would seem to point to Nall, if you ask me. I certainly hope so, because I think he is the most talented of the three and would make the best starter. But, having said all of that it will still probably not be settled until after one or two preseason games. I'd put it at about 75% that it will be either Losman or Nall.

Ah-ha! You guys are starting to "get it"!

Combine these two posts and what do you get? The title of my forthcoming article for the BZ front page when I wrote it: The Buffalo Bills QB Competition Will Come Down To Losman vs Nall In The Preseason (it will have a slightly different title when it gets edited and posted because that title was too long to post).

HHurricane obviously listened to the initial comments that Levy and Jauron made about Losman when they got to Buffalo, as I did, and noted that they were less than kind. There was a reason for that and I think HHurricane put his finger on it. On the other hand, ibatiger has properly noted that, regardless of what we fans know or think about Nall, there was also a reason why Levy and Jauron decided to sign Nall and offered him a chance to compete for the Bills' starting QB job.

I think it is fair to conclude that how these three have performed thus far in the OTAs and mini-camp has influenced the coaches (which has been reflected in the comments that they have made about the three QBs in their interviews, by the way) and impacted their decision to extend the competition into training camp and the preseason without naming a starter yet. As has been already noted, the coaches have not seen these QBs in pads or game situations yet. The fact that they were prepared to make a decision about their starting QB before then initially, but now have decided decided to wait is telling and should tell you something about what they have seen and what they may be thinking right now. There's a reason why they are doing this.

Because that reason has to relate to how the three QBs have performed thus far and their expectations of them, the conclusion should be obvious: Losman has surprised them by how well he has performed thus far, while Nall, who they expected to press Holcomb for the job, has gotten off to a slow start and has only just recently begun to show what he can do. But, can they continue to perform well with the pads on and in game situations? Levy and Jauron know what Holcomb can do, but what about Losman and Nall? So, logically, it's going to come down to Losman vs Nall in the preseason with Holcomb as their back-up position if the two young guys can't get it done once the hitting starts. And, they are going to let them compete and show what they can do for as long as it takes for one of the two guys to out-perform the other or for both to fall on their faces.

Does that make sense?

[Mudflap1]

Don't look to much into what the coaches are doing. They are playing all three off each other in the hopes that one rises head and shoulders above the rest sometime in training camp. It's pretty simple.

Jon

[feelthepain]

This is the problem with Losman league wide. Nobody has really watched him play unless you are from Buffalo. In addition, you had the veterans last year complaining that we should have started Holcomb. So what happens? Places like ESPN radio, NFL Network, Sirrius, look at Losman's numbers (behind poor play calling and a terrible OL), and what the veterans are saying, and draw the conclusion that this kid is washed up before he even gets started. Don't believe for a second that Marv and Jauron hadn't drawn the same conclusion.


Losman may very well end up winning the starting job, but don't fool yourself for one minute thinking Juron and Levy came to their conclusion about JP based on what others said. They have hours and hours of film on all th QB's on the Bills roster, they can have someone break down every scenario and calculate odds on who plays better in which situations. Life in the NFL today is so much more advanced then it was just 10 years ago. They can calculate anything, in a matter of Days rather then months with computers and figure out who would statistically fit better with what they want to do.

They can break down each player by, 1st down plays, 2 down plays,3rd down plays, 1st and 10, 1st and 20 and so on. So I'm 100% sure they new about JP and all his athletic ability before they decided anything on their QB situation. Still the players have to play the game so camp performances still matter. My point is they can't afford not to use every tool at their disposal to determine who's the best fit for their team. So they knew all about JP, good and bad.

[LifetimeBillsFan]

True, FTP. But, there are things that you can't see on tape that are essential elements that go into selecting a starting QB, like personality, leadership ability, and how the rest of the team responds to you, etc.

JP was in Buffalo for only one day when Levy was hired and was gone until several weeks after Jauron was hired (during which time they signed Nall) and their initial interviews were with veterans like Moulds (who was outspoken about his dislike of Losman) and Adams, etc. So, their initial impressions of Losman's personality and ability to lead the team are very likely to have been negatively influenced by what they heard from these players before they really even had a chance to get to know JP themselves. And, I think that was reflected in their initial comments about him and the actions that they took in bringing in Nall (who they might have brought in anyway, but might have had different expectations of). Certainly that negative opinion was based, at least in part, on what they saw of Losman on tape from last season--there is no doubt that Losman struggled and did not show much of his ability once he was in real game situations.

But--and being a Miami fan I don't expect you to know this because I don't expect you to watch or listen to all of the Bills' press conferences or interviews with the Bills' coaches--but their comments about Losman have become increasingly more positive since Losman returned to Buffalo from his vacation and he has performed well in the OTAs and mini-camp. While they still are being careful not to reveal their thinking and are trying to talk about the QBs equally, it is obvious that their attitude about Losman has changed and is more positive than it was initially.

When I talk about JP surprising them, I don't just mean by his play. Losman has said that he thinks he took the wrong approach to trying to be the leader of the team last season and that he was going to take a different approach this season. If that, indeed, is what he has done and his teammates have responded positively to him, that might well have been a surprise to Levy and Jauron whose only impression of what he was like came from what they were told about him by others, who had a negative view of Losman, initially. And, that could well account for the change in the tone of their comments about him that has occured. As a result, they may feel that he has more of what it takes to be a starting QB--not in terms of physical ability, but character and leadership ability--than they original thought. Consequently, they may now want to see if he (and for that matter, Nall) has what it takes to lead the team and get the job done once the hitting starts--as was pointed out earlier in this post, there are guys who look great in practice, but can't get it done once they are faced with a hostile opponent.

While it is true that they can look at film and break down every movement that a player makes if they want, there is a human element to the game that can't be seen on tape or quantified. And, these are young men, especially Losman, but Nall as well, who are still growing, learning and developing as people, not just as players. No one is exactly the same person that they were a few years earlier--we humans learn and change based on our experiences--and young men like Losman and Nall can change from year to year, especially if they start out being immature, which was something that was said to be one of Losman's weaknesses when he was drafted. (Thank God--and I say this as an "old fart"--we are not consigned to acting and making decisions the same way that we did when we were 15, 19 or 22 without learning, growing and changing as we get older--what a disaster that would be!) So, while they can see what each of these three QBs have done in the past, it is only reasonable for the Bills' coaches to want to see how Losman and Nall will play and respond in games this year, even if they are only preseason games. At 33, it is not likely that Holcomb's personality or game is going to change all that much, but Losman and Nall could look very different than they have in the past--that's why they talk about the need for young QBs to have time to develop, not just in terms of their game and knowledge of the game, but also as a human being who has to integrate his knowledge, physical skills and emotions in a way that allows him to perform well in the heat of a game.

[The_Philster]

in that case, it should be Holcomb if he performs better than JP
actually, I'd say the coaches know enough about football that they won't rely on the newspaper's stat line to make the determination on who starts. They actually watch the games and game film and analyze each play. If a WR cuts right instead of left in his route and a pick is thrown, it's the fault of the WR...yet it ends up looking bad for the QB on the stat sheet.

[YardRat]

So, using your equation, Losman looks good enough to win the job. But, as all of us should expect, he does some struggling when the bullets fly. But since he won the job through training camp, hes the starter for the season? No one will clamor for Holcomb again? Thats a joke and everyone knows it. You non-Losman fans, wont get behind him unless he looks as good as peyton manning.

The time for him to earn his right to start is while hes playing regular season games. The fans, media, and coaches should have the nards to stand by him when he has bad games, he will. The thing that should keep us all behind him is the fact that there is NO better option and we will go nowhere with either of the other 2 starting. Holcomb proved hes not worthy last year and through his whole career.

Losman represents a chance at glory in the future. But it cannot be realized without him playing. Neither of the other two options have it in them to lead us to a Superbowl win.....Start the road back to glory now!

No.

He earns the job by beating out Holcomb and Nall.

He keeps the job by performing adequately and showing improvement week-to-week, regardless of the win-loss record.

If he can't perform adequately, if he doesn't show improvement, or his performance on the field regresses instead and the regular season 'results' don't coincide with the abilities he shows during practices then at some point during the season the 'experiment' changes course.

I'm not a 'non-Losman' fan and I don't expect him to perform like any other specific QB...I simply expect him to play at a level where his personal performance isn't a detriment to the team.

[TacklingDummy]

I'll go out on a limb here and bet you that he'll have at least as many TDs as INTs.... SCRATCH THAT - he'll have at least 2 more TDs than INTs. (not twice as many - but if he throws 3 INTs this preseason, he'll throw for at least 5 TDs).

And he'll complete at least 55% of his passes - is that fair?

and the bet will be for $500 ZBs?

Do you accept?

Sure I'll bet 500 on it. Who's the Judge that determines what significantly better is?

[ICE74129]

He needs to earn it first...during training camp and the pre-season.

If he can't beat out the other two for the starting position by then, then he deserves nothing, and it's his own damn fault he doesn't get to play in the regular season to 'get better'.

It doesn't work that way. Good thing Marino, Montana, Young, Favre, Elway and many many others including Palmer, Manning I and II didn't have to do that.

[ICE74129]

No.

He earns the job by beating out Holcomb and Nall.

He keeps the job by performing adequately and showing improvement week-to-week, regardless of the win-loss record.

If he can't perform adequately, if he doesn't show improvement, or his performance on the field regresses instead and the regular season 'results' don't coincide with the abilities he shows during practices then at some point during the season the 'experiment' changes course.

I'm not a 'non-Losman' fan and I don't expect him to perform like any other specific QB...I simply expect him to play at a level where his personal performance isn't a detriment to the team.

Where do you get this crap? 'Showing improvement week to week'? What kind of standard is that? NO QB IN HISTORY has done that.

You guys are so friggin off the reservation on this issue it isn't funny. NO QB shows improvement week to week, but you want to hold JP to that standard?

[ICE74129]

Sure I'll bet 500 on it. Who's the Judge that determines what significantly better is?

Me.

[X-Era]

No.

He earns the job by beating out Holcomb and Nall.

He keeps the job by performing adequately and showing improvement week-to-week, regardless of the win-loss record.

If he can't perform adequately, if he doesn't show improvement, or his performance on the field regresses instead and the regular season 'results' don't coincide with the abilities he shows during practices then at some point during the season the 'experiment' changes course.

I'm not a 'non-Losman' fan and I don't expect him to perform like any other specific QB...I simply expect him to play at a level where his personal performance isn't a detriment to the team.
So he can perform adequately and still lose the game in your mind?

Define adequate for me please. I would say a 300 yard, 3 td 0 or 1 int game to be a pretty good game. ABOVE adequate.

I would say a 250 yard, 2 td, 0 int game to be adequate.

Lets not get into the D, McGahee, etc... Kepp it right on Losman. I think its fair, he wont have any control over those factors.

Please, keep the good discussion going and tell me whats adequate to you.

I consider both of these performances above adequate:

<table border="0" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="1" width="100%"><tbody><tr class="bg3"><td>VS. KANSAS CITY</td><td>1</td><td>16
</td><td>9</td><td>56.3</td><td>137</td><td>8.56</td><td>33</td><td>2</td><td>0</td><td>4</td><td>44.4</td><td>4</td><td>1</td><td>124.2</td> </tr> <tr class="bg2"> <td>VS. MIAMI</td><td>1</td><td>26</td><td>13</td><td>50.0</td><td>224</td><td>8.62</td><td>56</td><td>3</td><td>1</td><td>8</td><td>61.5</td><td>4</td><td>2</td><td>102.1</td></tr></tbody></table>

[ublinkwescore]

Sure I'll bet 500 on it. Who's the Judge that determines what significantly better is?

I just posted the terms for me to win the bet - he's gotta have at least a 55% completion percentage with at least 2 more TDs than INTs.

[billfirn06]

Nall? He might be the most talented, but how do we know that?

I have to agree with Ibatiger. As far as talent goes, I am sure Levy and Jauron evaluated what he did in the 10 starts he had in NFLE, where he was the leagues best QB the year he was there as well as his limited play he had in Green Bay in 2004. I looked it up, in NFLE he had a 60%+ pass completions with a 95 pass effeciency rating and threw 18 touchdowns with only 7 INTs and threw for 2200 yard while only playing a little over a half a game. Equate that into a 16 game season and playing a full game, I think his numbers speak for themself.

[TacklingDummy]

I just posted the terms for me to win the bet - he's gotta have at least a 55% completion percentage with at least 2 more TDs than INTs.

Sure I'll take the bet. Even though my question was just a hypothetical situation and never answered.

How many more yards then 250?

[feelthepain]

True, FTP. But, there are things that you can't see on tape that are essential elements that go into selecting a starting QB, like personality, leadership ability, and how the rest of the team responds to you, etc.

JP was in Buffalo for only one day when Levy was hired and was gone until several weeks after Jauron was hired (during which time they signed Nall) and their initial interviews were with veterans like Moulds (who was outspoken about his dislike of Losman) and Adams, etc. So, their initial impressions of Losman's personality and ability to lead the team are very likely to have been negatively influenced by what they heard from these players before they really even had a chance to get to know JP themselves. And, I think that was reflected in their initial comments about him and the actions that they took in bringing in Nall (who they might have brought in anyway, but might have had different expectations of). Certainly that negative opinion was based, at least in part, on what they saw of Losman on tape from last season--there is no doubt that Losman struggled and did not show much of his ability once he was in real game situations.

But--and being a Miami fan I don't expect you to know this because I don't expect you to watch or listen to all of the Bills' press conferences or interviews with the Bills' coaches--but their comments about Losman have become increasingly more positive since Losman returned to Buffalo from his vacation and he has performed well in the OTAs and mini-camp. While they still are being careful not to reveal their thinking and are trying to talk about the QBs equally, it is obvious that their attitude about Losman has changed and is more positive than it was initially.

When I talk about JP surprising them, I don't just mean by his play. Losman has said that he thinks he took the wrong approach to trying to be the leader of the team last season and that he was going to take a different approach this season. If that, indeed, is what he has done and his teammates have responded positively to him, that might well have been a surprise to Levy and Jauron whose only impression of what he was like came from what they were told about him by others, who had a negative view of Losman, initially. And, that could well account for the change in the tone of their comments about him that has occured. As a result, they may feel that he has more of what it takes to be a starting QB--not in terms of physical ability, but character and leadership ability--than they original thought. Consequently, they may now want to see if he (and for that matter, Nall) has what it takes to lead the team and get the job done once the hitting starts--as was pointed out earlier in this post, there are guys who look great in practice, but can't get it done once they are faced with a hostile opponent.

While it is true that they can look at film and break down every movement that a player makes if they want, there is a human element to the game that can't be seen on tape or quantified. And, these are young men, especially Losman, but Nall as well, who are still growing, learning and developing as people, not just as players. No one is exactly the same person that they were a few years earlier--we humans learn and change based on our experiences--and young men like Losman and Nall can change from year to year, especially if they start out being immature, which was something that was said to be one of Losman's weaknesses when he was drafted. (Thank God--and I say this as an "old fart"--we are not consigned to acting and making decisions the same way that we did when we were 15, 19 or 22 without learning, growing and changing as we get older--what a disaster that would be!) So, while they can see what each of these three QBs have done in the past, it is only reasonable for the Bills' coaches to want to see how Losman and Nall will play and respond in games this year, even if they are only preseason games. At 33, it is not likely that Holcomb's personality or game is going to change all that much, but Losman and Nall could look very different than they have in the past--that's why they talk about the need for young QBs to have time to develop, not just in terms of their game and knowledge of the game, but also as a human being who has to integrate his knowledge, physical skills and emotions in a way that allows him to perform well in the heat of a game.


Another good read and you make some valid points. My point was that Juron and Levy know enough about all their QB's to make a decsion on their own rather what they read in the press. It's just OTA's and Mini camps so the choices they make at this point aren't set in stone, as it should be.

[Meathead]

Whoever wins the QB competition come pre-season, the team will not only be better for it this year, but be better prepared to deal with the ramifications in the future.

If it's Losman or Nall, the future may take care of itself...if it's Holcomb, we need to look for another young guy.
agree except that that decision wont be made until the end of the season

its entirely possible they could end up in one position to start the season and completely opposite at the end of it

but jp will start the season

[YardRat]

Where do you get this crap? 'Showing improvement week to week'? What kind of standard is that? NO QB IN HISTORY has done that.

You guys are so friggin off the reservation on this issue it isn't funny. NO QB shows improvement week to week, but you want to hold JP to that standard?

I'm not talking about a continues upward curve on a line chart, Ice...and I'm not necessarily restricting improvement to stats or wins/losses. JP is at the point in his career where he needs to show that he gets the mental part of the game...making the right reads, going through his progressions in the proper order, getting rid of the ball at the right time to the appropriate receiver, calling the right audibles at the line to check out of a bad play and into a good one based on the defense he's reading, etc. Regardless of the outcome of the play, or even the game, a starting QB should at least be able to prove he can make the proper mental adjustments during the heat of battle.

He's going to have good games, hopefully, and he's going to have not-so-good games, speaking just from a stat or w/l perspective...but he should be able to get to the point where his mental decisions are sound and appropriate to the situation on a consistent basis.

No QB should be judged by a single play, or a series of plays within a single game. But, every QB should, when looking at the compilation of their body of work over a period of time at least get to a point where the good outweighs the bad in more than just 'potential'.

[YardRat]

So he can perform adequately and still lose the game in your mind?

Define adequate for me please. I would say a 300 yard, 3 td 0 or 1 int game to be a pretty good game. ABOVE adequate.

I would say a 250 yard, 2 td, 0 int game to be adequate.

Lets not get into the D, McGahee, etc... Kepp it right on Losman. I think its fair, he wont have any control over those factors.

Please, keep the good discussion going and tell me whats adequate to you.

I consider both of these performances above adequate:

<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR class=bg3><TD>VS. KANSAS CITY</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>16

</TD><TD>9</TD><TD>56.3</TD><TD>137</TD><TD>8.56</TD><TD>33</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>44.4</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>124.2</TD></TR><TR class=bg2><TD>VS. MIAMI</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>26</TD><TD>13</TD><TD>50.0</TD><TD>224</TD><TD>8.62</TD><TD>56</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>8</TD><TD>61.5</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>102.1</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Performing adequently, or competently, or even at a superior level doesn't necessarily need to be relegated to a simple stat sheet.

Go through the proper progression, make the right reads, call the right audibles and check-outs...the mental part of the game that doesn't show up on a stat sheet, but is apparent when the coaches review the game film.

[X-Era]

Performing adequently, or competently, or even at a superior level doesn't necessarily need to be relegated to a simple stat sheet.

Go through the proper progression, make the right reads, call the right audibles and check-outs...the mental part of the game that doesn't show up on a stat sheet, but is apparent when the coaches review the game film.

So last years coaches chose to bench Losman in favor of Holcomb due to his lack of progressing? I doubt it. Mularkey was full of sh_t trying to appease vets like Sam Adams and Moulds who clamored for Holcomb thinking he bought them wins now. I dont blame vets late in their careers for this, I blame Mularkey for not staying the course and following through on HIS choice to start the youngster, knowing full good and well that he would play horrible in games. He had no nards and gave into the pressure when anyone with any football eyes could see we were screwed last year anyways. Losman has NO control over the defense and it flat out sucked last year.

My problem with your statement has nothing to do with the truth in it. I agree completely. My problem is with the fans and the fans here. They will see a 2 int, 1 TD, 150 yard loss as all Losmans fault and will call for his head, when in fact, he could have done everything the gameplan asked him to and more.

Theres a ton that goes on behind the scenes. Gameplan has everything to do with our wins and losses. But I agree that exectution is showing you can lead and control the offense is critical. But Tom Brady is probably the best in the league at this and ANY youngster will fall far short. It doesnt mean they should be benched. We need to find a way to stomach the terrible, horrible play by Losman sometimes in hopes that he learns and grows from it and becomes our SB QB. The talent is there, I have seen enough to know it. But like you, I agree its a matter of decision making at this point. Its something thats learned not taught.

Let him play, hes the only guy that has any chance of leading us to the dance.

And if next year proves it aint him, get the guy who it IS in here NOW!!!!!!!

[EDS]

I think Dick and Marv truly want someone to rise to the top on their own through the QB competition, and there are no games being played.

They would be foolish not to hope JP realizes his potential, but they are also intelligent enough to know that JP has to earn it, and if he can't, they kept a capable veteran in the wings to babysit the position just in case. They also covered all their bases by getting a 'tweener' in Nall...physical tools better than Holcomb but not as strong as JP, and perhaps a mental grasp of the game better than Losman, but not as much as Holcomb.

Whoever wins the QB competition come pre-season, the team will not only be better for it this year, but be better prepared to deal with the ramifications in the future.

If it's Losman or Nall, the future may take care of itself...if it's Holcomb, we need to look for another young guy.

Agreed.

The reason a starter hasn't been announced is because (a) it is still way to early to make that determination and (b) no one has clearly separated themselves from the other competitors for the starting position.

I would be much more worried if Jauron named a starter this early in the preseason.

[ICE74129]

Agreed.

The reason a starter hasn't been announced is because (a) it is still way to early to make that determination and

Wrong

(b) no one has clearly separated themselves from the other competitors for the starting position.

Wrong

I would be much more worried if Jauron named a starter this early in the preseason.

And your last comment is why you should NEVER coach or have any direct involvement in any football team

[LifetimeBillsFan]

[

So last years coaches chose to bench Losman in favor of Holcomb due to his lack of progressing? I doubt it. Mularkey was full of sh_t trying to appease vets like Sam Adams and Moulds who clamored for Holcomb thinking he bought them wins now. I dont blame vets late in their careers for this, I blame Mularkey for not staying the course and following through on HIS choice to start the youngster, knowing full good and well that he would play horrible in games. He had no nards and gave into the pressure when anyone with any football eyes could see we were screwed last year anyways. Losman has NO control over the defense and it flat out sucked last year.

I totally agree with you. IMHO, you hit the nail on the head. The only argument that can be made to support what MM did last year is to say that JP could not possibly have progressed and may have had his confidence utterly and permanently destroyed if he had continued to play without the support of his teammates--which was obviously lacking from the TB game on.


My problem with your statement has nothing to do with the truth in it. I agree completely. My problem is with the fans and the fans here. They will see a 2 int, 1 TD, 150 yard loss as all Losmans fault and will call for his head, when in fact, he could have done everything the gameplan asked him to and more.

Theres a ton that goes on behind the scenes. Gameplan has everything to do with our wins and losses. But I agree that exectution is showing you can lead and control the offense is critical. But Tom Brady is probably the best in the league at this and ANY youngster will fall far short. It doesnt mean they should be benched. We need to find a way to stomach the terrible, horrible play by Losman sometimes in hopes that he learns and grows from it and becomes our SB QB. The talent is there, I have seen enough to know it. But like you, I agree its a matter of decision making at this point. Its something thats learned not taught....

In many ways, that's what YardRat has been saying in his posts as well. There are TANGIBLES, like arm-strength, size, speed, completion percentage, interceptions and TD passes thrown, etc. and then there are INTANGIBLES, like leadership ability (do his teammates respond when he tries to lead them, etc.), grasp of the game plan, etc. and TECHNICAL ASPECTS, like is there a hitch in his throwing motion that is tipping where the ball is going and allowing the defense to close, is he setting his feet properly, etc. that all go a part of what they are looking at and are going to be elements in the decision that they make. I think what YardRat is saying is that there's a lot of things that we fans do not see or know about that go into the evaluation of a QB and I agree with him on that.

I don't think that the coaches are going to be using Tom Brady as the standard for what they expect JP Losman to be able to do at this point, but they almost certainly do have a set of criteria that they will be grading and judging him and the other two QBs against and those criteria will include tangibles, intangibles and technical aspects of each QB's game. And, that's actually going to be looking for improvement. A young QB can have a bad game, in terms of how he plays and his tangible performance, but still show improvement in other areas that the coaches are looking at and evaluating (for example: did he make the right decisions, but execute poorly or did he show a better grasp of the offense and make better checkoffs at the line of scrimmage, even though the plays were not executed well, etc.).


So he can perform adequately and still lose the game in your mind?

Define adequate for me please. I would say a 300 yard, 3 td 0 or 1 int game to be a pretty good game. ABOVE adequate.

I would say a 250 yard, 2 td, 0 int game to be adequate.....

There have been a lot of games where a QB has thrown for over 300 yards and lost--just look at what Billy Volek did with the Titans the year before last at the end of the season. P.Manning did it against the Pats two years ago. Sonny Jurgenson did it all of the time back in the day.

There have also been games when a QB has thrown for under 200 yards and not only won the game, but perfectly managed it. Brady has done it and so have others. I recall Jon Gruden praising Brian Griese for doing a superb job of quarterbacking after a game in which Griese completed something like 17 passes for 195 yards (I don't have the precise stats at hand, but I recall it because Griese was my FFL QB that week and I was ticked off and wanted to know why he had such lousy numbers!).

It's really hard to quantify adequate in terms of yardage, although TD to INT ratio and completion percentages can help to give a better picture of how well a QB has performed.


And your last comment is why you should NEVER coach or have any direct involvement in any football team

This is a ridiculous statement.

ICE, how do you know that EDS was wrong, other than grammatically, in stating "no one has clearly separated themselves from the other competitors for the starting position."? Do you know what the criteria are that the Bills' coaches are using to judge this competition? Do you somehow have secret access to what they are thinking or how they see the competition going at this point? Can you even point to a single statement that they have made where a Bills' coach states that one of the QBs has clearly separated himself from the others? If you do not have that information, how can you unequivocally state that EDS' statement was wrong? Which you did.

Unless you can provide some evidence that supports your statement that EDS was wrong--by producing some evidence that one of the QBs has clearly separated himself from the others in this competition to support your claim--then you had no right to say this to EDS and should retract your statement. If you cannot support or find it in yourself to retract your statement, you might want to seriously consider it as advice to yourself and, in future, keep such advice to yourself.

[EDS]

And your last comment is why you should NEVER coach or have any direct involvement in any football team
And that last comment of yours is why you are and will always be a Edited for TOS violation - Lecter. Your lack of knowledge is well documented on this forum.

[1959BillsFan]

IMHO, whoever the beginning #1 QB will not be holding that position for very long with this newly developed o-line yet again gaining "chemistry" and momentum.

[ICE74129]

[



Unless you can provide some evidence that supports your statement that EDS was wrong--by producing some evidence that one of the QBs has clearly separated himself from the others in this competition to support your claim--then you had no right to say this to EDS and should retract your statement. If you cannot support or find it in yourself to retract your statement, you might want to seriously consider it as advice to yourself and, in future, keep such advice to yourself.

I'm not retracting ****. DJ himself has made mention that someone is starting to seperate himself but he wasn't going to clue the media IE 'you guys' in on it. Its right there on the video.

But then again its an issue of you guys not knowing and not haveing coached QB's. If no one had seperated themselfs, you would see someone cut and a veteran brought in at this late date. I don't expect you to understand this and thats fine.

[ICE74129]

And that last comment of yours is why you are and will always be a complete idiot. Your lack of knowledge is well documented on this forum.

Typical 5th grade response. I get that alot here. Some know some guess. I know, most here guess. I know what DJ and marv are doing and they are handling it wrong. Yeah, just because you have a pro gig doesn't make you right. Or would you put total faith in Richie Kotite? I mean the man was a pro coach for several years, so he must have been correct, right?

Could be, and it seems to be so, DJ is screwing this QB situation up completely. he has a little time to bail his ass out, but with his history, I think he screws it up.

[billsburgh]

actually, I'd say the coaches know enough about football that they won't rely on the newspaper's stat line to make the determination on who starts. They actually watch the games and game film and analyze each play. If a WR cuts right instead of left in his route and a pick is thrown, it's the fault of the WR...yet it ends up looking bad for the QB on the stat sheet.
I wasnt talkin only about the stat lines that were proposed. I know that stats dont always tell the true story. When I said performing better, I meant making better throws, better decisions, and leadership ability.

[EricStratton]

Typical 5th grade response. I get that alot here. Some know some guess. I know, most here guess. I know what DJ and marv are doing and they are handling it wrong. Yeah, just because you have a pro gig doesn't make you right. Or would you put total faith in Richie Kotite? I mean the man was a pro coach for several years, so he must have been correct, right?

Could be, and it seems to be so, DJ is screwing this QB situation up completely. he has a little time to bail his ass out, but with his history, I think he screws it up.


So now you're comparing Rich Kotite to Marv Levy?

[ScottLawrence]

Ah yes the holcombite is back. Sorry your boy is getting benched, so why not go back to wherever you were hiding because JP will be our QB this year.


Im assuming your referring to Holcomb as "my boy", but like I've said many times before, I want the best quarterback to win the job......But by looking at the comments made by Craig Nall who said "Holcomb has been the most consistent of the 3 quarterbacks" in the minicamps, and Coach Jauron who said hes closer to a decision on who will be starting, then I have to assume that Holcomb is still the front runner for the job.


Although all of the Losman ass eaters, like yourself, would disagree.

[ICE74129]

So now you're comparing Rich Kotite to Marv Levy?

What has marv done as a GM? He very well could be as bad a GM as Kotite was a coach. You can't say different.

And I AM saying until he proves different, DJ is as bad as kotite.

[ICE74129]

Im assuming your referring to Holcomb as "my boy", but like I've said many times before, I want the best quarterback to win the job......But by looking at the comments made by Craig Nall who said "Holcomb has been the most consistent of the 3 quarterbacks" in the minicamps, and Coach Jauron who said hes closer to a decision on who will be starting, then I have to assume that Holcomb is still the front runner for the job.


Although all of the Losman ass eaters, like yourself, would disagree.

No those with any football knowledge disagree. If holcomb starts, we lose period. but hey, it would be in DJ's LOSING history to go with a career loser for his QB.

[EricStratton]

What has marv done as a GM? He very well could be as bad a GM as Kotite was a coach. You can't say different.

And I AM saying until he proves different, DJ is as bad as kotite.


I'd put the talent evaluation skills (that is what's in question here) of Marv up against Kotite just about everyday.

He may even know more then any of us.

[ICE74129]

I'd put the talent evaluation skills (that is what's in question here) of Marv up against Kotite just about everyday.

He may even know more then any of us.

Really? According to marv he sat and listened to Polian and butler but let them do the evals and picking. Then spent 8 years outta football. I have sat and listened to dwight adams on a few occasion and even polian talk about scouting, so I guess I am as qualified as marv.

Coaching doesn't = GM success. This would be why guys like Holmgren got the GM/ Personel title stripped from them.

[EricStratton]

You're probably right, I'm sure you know more.

[Kerr]

Nall? He might be the most talented, but how do we know that? I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I'm trying to figure out what you're basing this opinion on. Obviously, we know what Holcomb gives us, but as for Losman and Nall, we have no idea. We know a little more about Losman. In the end, because we know what Holcomb gives us, I agree that we should hope for Losman or Nall to get the nod.


because he's followed nall for a long time and if i'm not mistaken, is an acquaintance of nall. :shakeno:

[LifetimeBillsFan]

What has marv done as a GM? He very well could be as bad a GM as Kotite was a coach. You can't say different.

And I AM saying until he proves different, DJ is as bad as kotite.

You can chose to ignore the fact that he was the GM of the Montreal Allouttes of the CFL if you like, but in his four years of being in charge of player personnel for that team, his club made the playoffs 4 times, went to the Grey Cup twice and won it once (in his five years with Montreal, he won the Grey Cup twice). He also got the team to hire a magazine salesman who was submitting scouting reports to the team on a part-time basis as a full-time scout before some other team did...a guy named Bill Polian.

Sure, it was Canada and the CFL and it was a long time ago, but Levy has been a GM of a professional football team and a successful one before. So, it's not like he doesn't know how to run a team. And, he was smart enough to recognize the ability of a guy like Polian and hire him.

I can just imagine what some of the people here and in the media would be saying if Levy hired a magazine salesman to be a major scout for the Bills at this point...they'd be calling for his scalp! But, somehow that hiring worked out pretty well, didn't it?

Of course, it doesn't matter that Marv was able to pick out one of the best personnel men in the business before anyone knew who he was or that he went to three Grey Cups as a coach and GM in Montreal or four Super Bowls coaching the Bills, we have guys here who are so involved in coaching that they have time to post here for hours who know more than Levy about being a GM of a professional football team or building a championship pro team as a coach.... Obviously, if Levy and the coaches that he hired to lead this team don't do exactly what they want, the way that they want it done, Levy and those coaches must be fools!

To which I say: Levy and Jauron may not always be right, but I wouldn't make the mistake of thinking that they are fools. I'll give someone with Levy's resume the benefit of the doubt over the opinions of someone who hasn't even coached at that level anyday!

[Gunzlingr]

Great post. There are an awful lot of armchair GMs/Coaches here that seem to know more than everyone else. 1 in particular comes to mind.

[Gunzlingr]

I'd put the talent evaluation skills (that is what's in question here) of Marv up against Kotite just about everyday.

He may even know more then any of us.

But ICE has let us know many, many times he knows more than anyone here, in the NFL, and the world in general when it comes to football. If the Hall of Fame were in his mind rather than Canton, he would have been inducted years ago. He is always right, even when he is wrong.

[EDS]

Great post. There are an awful lot of armchair GMs/Coaches here that seem to know more than everyone else. 1 in particular comes to mind.

Who could that be?

[TacklingDummy]

I wonder.

[ICE74129]

Great post. There are an awful lot of armchair GMs/Coaches here that seem to know more than everyone else. 1 in particular comes to mind.

Yes I do. And??? One of these days you will wake up to that fact

[ICE74129]

But ICE has let us know many, many times he knows more than anyone here, in the NFL, and the world in general when it comes to football. If the Hall of Fame were in his mind rather than Canton, he would have been inducted years ago. He is always right, even when he is wrong.

Haven't been proven wrong on here yet. If more actually understood football and its inner workings instead of guessing and wishing upon a star, you would understand this.

[Gunzlingr]

Haven't been proven wrong on here yet. If more actually understood football and its inner workings instead of guessing and wishing upon a star, you would understand this.

:rofl:

The Everlasting Know-it-All has Spoken! Marv would be wise to listen to the greatest football mind in all of history, ICEHOLE74129!!! Just don't pay any attention to the ****** behind the curtain! :hail: ICEHOLE, the wise (if only in his own mind).

[ICE74129]

:rofl:

The Everlasting Know-it-All has Spoken! Marv would be wise to listen to the greatest football mind in all of history, ICEHOLE74129!!! Just don't pay any attention to the ****** behind the curtain! :hail: ICEHOLE, the wise (if only in his own mind).

Again, responding with a TOS violation post that resembles something a 7 year old would post, doesnt change fact.

all pro teams think fans are ******s and don't understand the workings of football. Now I grant you most dont, but some of us do and don't buy their BS.

You don't have to be the greatest football mind in history to have the common sense God Gave a goose. Just because you dont' like the fact, doesnt mean it still isn't fact.

[Gunzlingr]

Like the "facts" you posted before the draft that changed as the wind blew? I am willing to bet that most people here think your posts are conceited crap.

[ICE74129]

Like the "facts" you posted before the draft that changed as the wind blew? I am willing to bet that most people here think your posts are conceited crap.

And again, what they think doesn't change anything. Facts and reality are something most here have a hard time with.

[Gunzlingr]

And again, what they think doesn't change anything. Facts and reality are something most here have a hard time with.

Especially when your "facts and reality" change all the time huh?

[ublinkwescore]

Sure I'll take the bet. Even though my question was just a hypothetical situation and never answered.

How many more yards then 250?

I don't want to bet on the yardage because it is preseason, and if he does earn our starting spot, obviously he's not going to play more than a quarter and a 1/2 a game - if that - 250 for the equivalent of one football game (though dragged out over 4 games) is pretty solid - let's just say he's gotta at least match the yardage he put up last preseason.

[TacklingDummy]

I don't want to bet on the yardage because it is preseason, and if he does earn our starting spot, obviously he's not going to play more than a quarter and a 1/2 a game - if that - 250 for the equivalent of one football game (though dragged out over 4 games) is pretty solid - let's just say he's gotta at least match the yardage he put up last preseason.

Include yardage and it's a bet. Last pre-season Losman usually played the whole first half and sometimes into the 3rd QTr. Last pre-season it was 352 yards.

[ublinkwescore]

Include yardage and it's a bet. Last pre-season Losman usually played the whole first half and sometimes into the 3rd QTr. Last pre-season it was 352 yards.

If I include yardage, then he's only got to meet 2 of the three criteria that we set down so far.

Losman's situation last season was a little different than it is this season.

[TacklingDummy]

If I include yardage, then he's only got to meet 2 of the three criteria that we set down so far.

Losman's situation last season was a little different than it is this season.

Sure, Im game. It's only ZBs.

And what if Losman gets injuried during practice or during the 1st pre-season game?