Ralph's record w/o Polian

[Mr. Cynical]

Ralph's record without Polian (post merger) is:

Before Polian: 88-153

After Polian: 93-99

Discuss....

[Carlton Bailey]

Pretty much. Wilson's so overrated it's ridiculous.

[Mr. Cynical]

I admire what he did to establish the team but that goes only so far when you want a championship team in your lifetime.

[The_Philster]

You taken on my challenge yet?

[Mr. Cynical]

Which is? Please be more specific. Contrary to your constant accusations of my psychic powers, I can't read minds.

[The_Philster]

Which is? Please be more specific. Contrary to your constant accusations of my psychic powers, I can't read minds.
Curse out the VP of your company who just happens to be the offspring of the President of your company. You've done a pretty good job of bashing Ralph for doing what most employers would do...or do you think your situation is different? Maybe you've got a job where you can get away with that. I'll lay odds that you're in the minority in a big way if that's the case.

[Mr. Cynical]

Curse out the VP of your company who just happens to be the offspring of the President of your company. You've done a pretty good job of bashing Ralph for doing what most employers would do...or do you think your situation is different? Maybe you've got a job where you can get away with that. I'll lay odds that you're in the minority in a big way if that's the case.

Regardless of why he fired him, my point is that Ralph is nothing special as an owner as is evident by his overall record. The only time the Bills were special was with Polian.

[The_Philster]

Regardless of why he fired him, my point is that Ralph is nothing special as an owner as is evident by his overall record. The only time the Bills were special was with Polian.
I realize that...doesn't excuse what he did. It doesn't matter if you're the best employee in the history of the company (and, IMO, Polian was one of the best in Bills history), you won't get away with everything

[Mr. Cynical]

I realize that...doesn't excuse what he did. It doesn't matter if you're the best employee in the history of the company (and, IMO, Polian was one of the best in Bills history), you won't get away with everything

So the first 3 words of your post..."I realize that".....are you agreeing with me about Ralph (disregarding the Polian incident)? If you say yes I'm gonna faint.

[John Doe]

Regardless of why he fired him, my point is that Ralph is nothing special as an owner as is evident by his overall record. The only time the Bills were special was with Polian.

AFL championships have to count for something.

Ralph got 2 of them without Polian.

[The_Philster]

So the first 3 words of your post..."I realize that".....are you agreeing with me about Ralph (disregarding the Polian incident)? If you say yes I'm gonna faint.
Not completely...after all, Polian had nothing to do with our success in the 60s...or the early 80s

[Dozerdog]

Ralph's record without Polian (post merger) is:

Before Polian: 88-153

After Polian: 93-99

Discuss....

Ralph's record without Levy (post merger) is:

Before Levy: 90-148

After Levy: 91-92

Discuss....





Actually- I have no idea what the point of this discussion is. The Bills won for years after he left, and what does the record during the second half of the Butler & full Donahoe eras have to do with anything?

[Mr. Cynical]

Ralph's record without Levy (post merger) is:

Before Levy: 90-148

After Levy: 91-92

Discuss....

Actually- I have no idea what the point of this discussion is. The Bills won for years after he left, and what does the record during the second half of the Butler & full Donahoe eras have to do with anything?

I thought the point was pretty clear. When looking at the history of the team (post merger - if you want to hang your hat on the AFL stuff, that's your prerogative) Ralph is not a very good owner except for the one good move of hiring Polian (who is connected to Levy, so your post about his record without Levy is redundant)

And since this team has been terrible now for 6 years it's more apparent he's not getting better with age. Time for a change - just hope that change happens in Buffalo.

[Dozerdog]

I thought the point was pretty clear. When looking at the history of the team (post merger - if you want to hang your hat on the AFL stuff, that's your prerogative) Ralph is not a very good owner except for the one good move of hiring Polian (who is connected to Levy, so your post about his record without Levy is redundant)

And since this team has been terrible now for 6 years it's more apparent he's not getting better with age. Time for a change - just hope that change happens in Buffalo.Very Wysonian

"Thow out their 2 championship seasons and you have a lousy owner"....:rofl:

[Mr. Cynical]

Very Wysonian

"Thow out their 2 championship seasons and you have a lousy owner"....:rofl:

You're right. Let's keep patting Ralph on the back for winning 2 championships 40 years ago in a league that has been defunct for 36 years.

:spit:

That was probably the worst case you could've made for supporting him.

[The_Philster]

You're right. Let's keep patting Ralph on the back for winning 2 championships 40 years ago in a league that has been defunct for 36 years.

:spit:

That was probably the worst case you could've made for supporting him.
Don't see how you can call the old AFL defunct. The old AAFC, yes...cause the NFL absorbed some teams and the others ceased to exist. The AFL and the NFL merged...so the old AFL is still very alive and well. But hey, you wanna use Wysian logic to support your case, that's your prerogative

[The JuiceBox Guy]

Wilson gave this team a squad good enough to have played in FOUR Super Bowls, in a row. I dont know of many owners that have done that for their teams

[Dozerdog]

You're right. Let's keep patting Ralph on the back for winning 2 championships 40 years ago in a league that has been defunct for 36 years.

:spit:

That was probably the worst case you could've made for supporting him.Are you the guy who posts "Phil- stop putting words in my mouth...:cry: :cry: :cry:" every other thread?

I haven't commented on if Wilson is a good or bad owner... I just commented on the selective stat usage you used to make some vague point.

[patmoran2006]

I think 98% of us all feel the same way about Wilson.

- Grateful as hell he's been our owner because most guys would've long-ago moved this team.

- Wish he'd sell and get out of the business and let someone who's thinking may be fresher for today's NFL.

[Mr. Cynical]

Don't see how you can call the old AFL defunct. The old AAFC, yes...cause the NFL absorbed some teams and the others ceased to exist. The AFL and the NFL merged...so the old AFL is still very alive and well. But hey, you wanna use Wysian logic to support your case, that's your prerogative

Even you can't say this again with a straight face.

[Mr. Cynical]

"Thow out their 2 championship seasons and you have a lousy owner"....:rofl:


I haven't commented on if Wilson is a good or bad owner... I just commented on the selective stat usage you used to make some vague point.

Nice tap dance. :jig:

Here is a direct question then if my point is too "vague" for you.

Do you think Ralph is a good owner?

[The_Philster]

Even you can't say this again with a straight face.
as straight as can be :::

[Mr. Cynical]

as straight as can be :::

You must be a great poker player because to say the AFL is not a defunct legue is simply incorrect and I refuse to believe you truly mean it when you say it. I know we disagree 99% of the time, but I know you know better.

[The_Philster]

The AFL merged with the NFL...they may no longer have the name of the AFL, but all the teams still exist along with the history of the league. Maybe our definitions of defunct differ but considering the AFL was successful enough to force a merger with the NFL..and leagues like the AAFC weren't, defunct doesn't describe the AFL, IMO

Oh..and I've never played poker

[Dozerdog]

Nice tap dance. :jig:

Here is a direct question then if my point is too "vague" for you.

Do you think Ralph is a good owner?

Since 1960, his teams have played in his league's ultimate championship game 6 times. (7 Times if you want to count the first 4 super bowls as "not the league championship") Since 1960, That's equall to or more than the following:

NY Giants (6)
SD Chargers (6)
Denver Broncos (6)
Pittsburgh Steelers (6)
NE Patriots (6)


Miami Dolphins (5)
San Francisco 49ers (5)
Washington Redskins (5)
Oakland Raiders (5)

Minnesota Vikings (4)
Tennesee Titians (4)
Indy (Balt) Colts (4)

Kansas City Chiefs (3)
Philadelphia Eagles (3)
St Louis Rams (3)

Cleveland Browns (2)
Chicago Bears (2)
Cincy Bengals (2)


NY Jets (1)
Atlanta Falcons (1)
Baltimore Ravens (1)
Seattle Seahawks(1)
Carolina panthers (1)
Tampa Bay (1)

Houston Texans (0)
Arizona Cardinals (0)
Detroit Lions (0)
Jax Jags (o)
NO Saints (o)


Only Dallas (8) , Green Bay (8) have had more. Obviously winning the big game has been a different story, losing the last 5 in a row. So Ralph Wilson has demonstrated that he can get the management and personel to put together a championship calibre team.

He has had periods of frugality. The 1970's come to mind- but then again it was an era without a salary cap.

He has paid his mega-star players when the time has come. Only when the rival USFL was going insane with ridiculous contracts (which led to their demise) did he lose "star players". Tom Cousineau got away- but he turned out in the long run not to be the All Pro LB he was touted to be.

He has had personality clashes with some of his better front office people that have led to their leaving. Lou saban (who was a bit nutty anyway - had over 20 jobs in 30 years) Chuck Knox, and Polian have left. Name me teams above that haven't had the same issues over that time

Marv Levy loves the guy.


Wilson is one of the few owners to keep his team and keep them here, in the NFL's second smallest market behind publically owned Green Bay. Seven teams have changed cities eight times in his tenure.

Oakland would have folded early in the 1960's without Wilson keeping them afloat

He has the cheapest tickets by far. Had we had a decent QB and offensive coordinator in 2004 we would have had a playoff calibre team.


At the present time, He's not one of the league's strongest owners. He doesn't treat his football team like a Fantasy Football operation like the new Billionaires do. Even if he wanted to- the team does not have the revenue.

He should try better to maximize local revenue- sell the naming rights!

The League has become more about big revenue owner greed and players more concerned about making their on -field antics sellable. It panders to the video game generation.
Dan Snyder and Terell Owens dominate the headlines. Wilson is to old school for that garbage.

He's not a terrible owner- I can think of a lot worse (Tom Benson- Saints, the joker Red McCombs who just sold the Vikes, Bidwell with the Cards, The Ford s in Detroit just to name a few)


Overall, I beleive he deserves HoF consideration before he's dead. He was instrumental in helping build the AFL and helping build the NFL into the dominant sport league in the USA.

[Mr. Cynical]

The AFL merged with the NFL...they may no longer have the name of the AFL, but all the teams still exist along with the history of the league. Maybe our definitions of defunct differ but considering the AFL was successful enough to force a merger with the NFL..and leagues like the AAFC weren't, defunct doesn't describe the AFL, IMO

Oh..and I've never played poker

Defunct means no longer exists in every definition available. The AFL no longer exists, regardless of why or how it happened.

However, I can see what (I think) your point was, i.e., the AFL didn't "go under" or go out of business because it sucked or whatever. In that case I agree.

Anyway, back to my orginal point, to use the 2 AFL championships that occurred 40 years ago as as a valid, meaningful example of why Ralph is a good owner now (or even in the last decade) is just plain ridiculous. (not saying that you used it - I'm just pointing it out to others)

[Jeff1220]

Between the merger and the Parcells era, the Giants were 88-151-2.

During the Parcells years, the Giants won two Super Bowls and went 77-49-1.

So, I guess that HOF legend owner Wellington Mara must've been a crappy owner too.

[Mr. Cynical]

Since 1960, his teams have played in his league's ultimate championship game 6 times. (7 Times if you want to count the first 4 super bowls as "not the league championship") Since 1960, That's equall to or more than the following:

Only Dallas (8) , Green Bay (8) have had more. Obviously winning the big game has been a different story, losing the last 5 in a row. So Ralph Wilson has demonstrated that he can get the management and personel to put together a championship calibre team.

The title of this thread is "Ralph's record w/o Polian". So you can take 3 of those SB appearances immediately off the table. And to be honest, you can really take off all 4 since the team Polian put in place was still rolling on his decisions when he left.

Note - I know your reponse is going to be "Wysian Logic" so I'll save you the keystrokes. I gave Ralph credit for hiring Polian already. The point of this thread is to see how Ralph did before and after that one great move.

So, that said, he had 3 champ games (2-1) 40 years ago in the AFL, a defunct league.

And as for the overall W-L records, I'll repost:

Before Polian: 88-153

After Polian: 93-99

So make your own decision, up to you, but that's not exactly a stellar record in my opinion.



He's not a terrible owner

I agree. He's not terrible by any means but he needs to step down and sell IMO.


Overall, I beleive he deserves HoF consideration before he's dead. He was instrumental in helping build the AFL and helping build the NFL into the dominant sport league in the USA.

I totally agree. But that doesn't mean I want him as the owner any longer either. It's been time for a change for a long time now IMO.

[Mr. Cynical]

Between the merger and the Parcells era, the Giants were 88-151-2.

During the Parcells years, the Giants won two Super Bowls and went 77-49-1.

So, I guess that HOF legend owner Wellington Mara must've been a crappy owner too.

Well they did go to the playoffs 5 times and to an SB after Parcells left, so maybe not as crappy as Ralph.

[The_Philster]

I agree. He's not terrible by any means but he needs to step down and sell IMO.CBA needs to be fixed first...or have you forgotten the problems that were found?

[Mr. Cynical]

CBA needs to be fixed first...or have you forgotten the problems that were found?

Rather take my chances with a new owner to be honest. Just my opinion.

[The_Philster]

Rather take my chances with a new owner to be honest. Just my opinion.
Well, as a WNYer who's had season tickets to the Bills since 1996, a new owner is unacceptable until things are fixed. Maybe you don't care about WNY and Buffalo, but some of us would rather have a mediocre team than none at all.

[Mr. Cynical]

Well, as a WNYer who's had season tickets to the Bills since 1996, a new owner is unacceptable until things are fixed. Maybe you don't care about WNY and Buffalo, but some of us would rather have a mediocre team than none at all.

My father was born in Buffalo, I was born in Buffalo and his entire family still lives in Buffalo. Dad has been watching the Bills since their inception, and I've been watching since the early 80s.

So yeah, I do care, but I also want an SB win in my lifetime (moreso in my father's as it would make him even more happy).

[The_Philster]

My father was born in Buffalo, I was born in Buffalo and his entire family still lives in Buffalo. Dad has been watching the Bills since their inception, and I've been watching since the early 80s.

So yeah, I do care, but I also want an SB win in my lifetime (moreso in my father's as it would make him even more happy).
so if the team was forced to move to LA, you'd still follow them? I think the majority of WNYers wouldn't

[YardRat]

Great post, Dozer.

[Jan Reimers]

I like to live in the present, and think about the future. None of us can do a damn thing about the past.

I hope - and firmly believe - that Marv can bring back the kind of success we had with Polian. After all, it was Marv that brought a young Bill Polian into football fulltime, with the Montreal Alouettes.

Let's not blast Ralph for his past mistakes, but thank him for keeping the Bills in Buffalo - and look forward to the Levy Era.

[KMA]

You're right. Let's keep patting Ralph on the back for winning 2 championships 40 years ago in a league that has been defunct for 36 years.

:spit:

That was probably the worst case you could've made for supporting him.

It was a completely different league in an entirely different time.

The Bills under GMs besides Polian have been a bad franchise.

[KMA]

Since 1960, his teams have played in his league's ultimate championship game 6 times. (7 Times if you want to count the first 4 super bowls as "not the league championship") Since 1960, That's equall to or more than the following:

NY Giants (6)
SD Chargers (6)
Denver Broncos (6)
Pittsburgh Steelers (6)
NE Patriots (6)


Miami Dolphins (5)
San Francisco 49ers (5)
Washington Redskins (5)
Oakland Raiders (5)

Minnesota Vikings (4)
Tennesee Titians (4)
Indy (Balt) Colts (4)

Kansas City Chiefs (3)
Philadelphia Eagles (3)
St Louis Rams (3)

Cleveland Browns (2)
Chicago Bears (2)
Cincy Bengals (2)


NY Jets (1)
Atlanta Falcons (1)
Baltimore Ravens (1)
Seattle Seahawks(1)
Carolina panthers (1)
Tampa Bay (1)

Houston Texans (0)
Arizona Cardinals (0)
Detroit Lions (0)
Jax Jags (o)
NO Saints (o)

4 of those 6 were because of Polian who Wilson fired after a third straight trip to the Super Bowl.

The other 2 of 6 were 40 years ago now in another league altogether. 1966 was the last.

So without Polian we have nothing to show for 40 years in that way. Whatever success that Wilson has had in this way can be directly attributed to Polian, again, who Wilson fired. Polian's led his teams to the playoffs in 11 of 18 seasons. Is there another GM in the league that can boast as much?


Marv Levy loves the guy.

Who cares. Everyone loves everyone in the NFL. Mularkey was a player favorite and look what that got us. That whole thing about players liking a coach or Levy liking Polian doesn't mean a damn thing. You would think that Marv liked Polian for handing him a Hall of Fame script. Levy sure wouldn't have made it on his own.

[Jan Reimers]

Maybe some of the Ralph haters would rather have had owners named Bidwill, Frontierre, Davis, Irsay and Modell through the years. They have certainly been less than loyal to their fans, moving their franchises for better offers in Arizona, St. Louis, LA (then Oakland, again), Indianapolis and Baltimore.

Oh, and the Houston owner - was it still Bud Adams? - who moved to Tennessee from one of the biggest markets in the country.

But the Bills have "only" won 6 AFL/AFC Championships - and played in a couple more - all the time surviving in the 2nd smallest market in the NFL. Yeah, that Ralph Wilson sure has been a bad owner.

[KMA]

Maybe some of the Ralph haters would rather have had owners named Bidwill, Frontierre, Davis, Irsay and Modell through the years. They have certainly been less than loyal to their fans, moving their franchises for better offers in Arizona, St. Louis, LA (then Oakland, again), Indianapolis and Baltimore.

Oh, and the Houston owner - was it still Bud Adams? - who moved to Tennessee from one of the biggest markets in the country.

But the Bills have "only" won 6 AFL/AFC Championships - and played in a couple more - all the time surviving in the 2nd smallest market in the NFL. Yeah, that Ralph Wilson sure has been a bad owner.

Who hates him?

No one said that. But talking about championships when most people here weren't even a twinkle in their parents eyes yet 40 years ago in an entirely different league and era isn't saying much for him.

Firing the sole reason for his only real period of success also doesn't say much.

Did Ralph go out and get Polian? No, Polian was just another cheap hire that capitalized off of the misfortunes of the GM at that time who had a heart attack. Wilson got lucky with Polian. He didn't scour the unemployed ranks and make some sort of brilliant move.

Other than for the Polian years, the Bills have been one of the worst franchises in the NFL. Ralph's contributions to the league are also somewhat ancient. He's done little for the league in modern times. I mean what has he done during the era of free agency?

How many handpicked GMs of his were worth much? Any? Don't say Polian because Polian fell into the role as a result of circumstances.

Why does it always come to "hate" when someone disagrees?

[Devin]

Since 1960, his teams have played in his league's ultimate championship game 6 times. (7 Times if you want to count the first 4 super bowls as "not the league championship") Since 1960, That's equall to or more than the following:

NY Giants (6)
SD Chargers (6)
Denver Broncos (6)
Pittsburgh Steelers (6)
NE Patriots (6)


Miami Dolphins (5)
San Francisco 49ers (5)
Washington Redskins (5)
Oakland Raiders (5)

Minnesota Vikings (4)
Tennesee Titians (4)
Indy (Balt) Colts (4)

Kansas City Chiefs (3)
Philadelphia Eagles (3)
St Louis Rams (3)

Cleveland Browns (2)
Chicago Bears (2)
Cincy Bengals (2)


NY Jets (1)
Atlanta Falcons (1)
Baltimore Ravens (1)
Seattle Seahawks(1)
Carolina panthers (1)
Tampa Bay (1)

Houston Texans (0)
Arizona Cardinals (0)
Detroit Lions (0)
Jax Jags (o)
NO Saints (o)


Only Dallas (8) , Green Bay (8) have had more. Obviously winning the big game has been a different story, losing the last 5 in a row. So Ralph Wilson has demonstrated that he can get the management and personel to put together a championship calibre team.

He has had periods of frugality. The 1970's come to mind- but then again it was an era without a salary cap.

He has paid his mega-star players when the time has come. Only when the rival USFL was going insane with ridiculous contracts (which led to their demise) did he lose "star players". Tom Cousineau got away- but he turned out in the long run not to be the All Pro LB he was touted to be.

He has had personality clashes with some of his better front office people that have led to their leaving. Lou saban (who was a bit nutty anyway - had over 20 jobs in 30 years) Chuck Knox, and Polian have left. Name me teams above that haven't had the same issues over that time

Marv Levy loves the guy.


Wilson is one of the few owners to keep his team and keep them here, in the NFL's second smallest market behind publically owned Green Bay. Seven teams have changed cities eight times in his tenure.

Oakland would have folded early in the 1960's without Wilson keeping them afloat

He has the cheapest tickets by far. Had we had a decent QB and offensive coordinator in 2004 we would have had a playoff calibre team.


At the present time, He's not one of the league's strongest owners. He doesn't treat his football team like a Fantasy Football operation like the new Billionaires do. Even if he wanted to- the team does not have the revenue.

He should try better to maximize local revenue- sell the naming rights!

The League has become more about big revenue owner greed and players more concerned about making their on -field antics sellable. It panders to the video game generation.
Dan Snyder and Terell Owens dominate the headlines. Wilson is to old school for that garbage.

He's not a terrible owner- I can think of a lot worse (Tom Benson- Saints, the joker Red McCombs who just sold the Vikes, Bidwell with the Cards, The Ford s in Detroit just to name a few)


Overall, I beleive he deserves HoF consideration before he's dead. He was instrumental in helping build the AFL and helping build the NFL into the dominant sport league in the USA.

Game, set, match. Thread should have ended here.

Good post! :bf1:

[Jan Reimers]

Who hates him?

No one said that. But talking about championships when most people here weren't even a twinkle in their parents eyes yet 40 years ago in an entirely different league and era isn't saying much for him.

Firing the sole reason for his only real period of success also doesn't say much.

Did Ralph go out and get Polian? No, Polian was just another cheap hire that capitalized off of the misfortunes of the GM at that time who had a heart attack. Wilson got lucky with Polian. He didn't scour the unemployed ranks and make some sort of brilliant move.

Other than for the Polian years, the Bills have been one of the worst franchises in the NFL. Ralph's contributions to the league are also somewhat ancient. He's done little for the league in modern times. I mean what has he done during the era of free agency?

How many handpicked GMs of his were worth much? Any? Don't say Polian because Polian fell into the role as a result of circumstances.

Why does it always come to "hate" when someone disagrees?
I should have said something like Ralph "detractors." Be that as it may, I actually think the Bills have had at least an average amount of success in the NFL, and more than several larger market teams, including Cleveland, Houston, Detroit, Philadelphia and some others.

And Ralph has stuck it out in a small market. For that, I give him credit. But loyalty is not a very appreciated trait among younger fans.

[Jan Reimers]

I love, too, how Ralph gets the blame for the bad GMs, but no credit for Polian. You really can't have it both ways.

[Mr. Cynical]

I should have said something like Ralph "detractors." Be that as it may, I actually think the Bills have had at least an average amount of success in the NFL, and more than several larger market teams, including Cleveland, Houston, Detroit, Philadelphia and some others.

And Ralph has stuck it out in a small market. For that, I give him credit. But loyalty is not a very appreciated trait among younger fans.

I agree with Cleveland/Houston/Detroit but would argue that Philly has had more success than the Bills since the merger. They may not have reached 4 SBs in a row, but they have had more "good eras" than we have over the last 36 years.

I hear you about loyalty and think it is a good ideal to strive for. But let me ask you this (hypothetically speaking of course) - if a new owner could come in and bring the Bills an SB win, would you support that move? Or would you stay loyal to Ralph and tell that new owner "no thanks"?

I have no hated of Ralph whatsoever. I don't know him personally. But I do know that I want the Bills to win an SB in my lifetime and at this point I'm ready to support whatever can help make that happen.

[Jan Reimers]

New ownership would be great. I think, too, that Ralph is probably getting too old to run this team. My biggest priority, however, is keeping the Bills in Buffalo, regardless of ownership. Next would be that elusive Super Bowl.

Like your dad, I aint gettin' any younger.

[Mr. Cynical]

so if the team was forced to move to LA, you'd still follow them? I think the majority of WNYers wouldn't

Probably, yeah. No way I can stomach being a Jets or Giants fan here. Plus, I truly believe you can't just "switch" to being a fan of another team. Once you've been a fan for years, it's kinda like permanent ink.

I'm putting my hopes on Golisano to step up and make it happen. He's done well with helping the Sabres, so I think he could do alot with the Bills.

[The_Philster]

Probably, yeah. No way I can stomach being a Jets or Giants fan here. Plus, I truly believe you can't just "switch" to being a fan of another team. Once you've been a fan for years, it's kinda like permanent ink.

I'm putting my hopes on Golisano to step up and make it happen. He's done well with helping the Sabres, so I think he could do alot with the Bills.
I hope so too...but the CBA HAS to be fixed first. If they move, the NFL is dead to me :down:
They wouldn't be our team anymore. The only way I'd come back to the NFL is if Buffalo got another team...which would be a longshot at best.

[KMA]

I should have said something like Ralph "detractors." Be that as it may, I actually think the Bills have had at least an average amount of success in the NFL, and more than several larger market teams, including Cleveland, Houston, Detroit, Philadelphia and some others.

And Ralph has stuck it out in a small market. For that, I give him credit. But loyalty is not a very appreciated trait among younger fans.

Do you know or are you just guessing?

The Bills have had a .440 winning percentage without Polian since the 16 game schedule. That's not good. Philly has been better. They've had 16 winning seasons to our 13 which includes five from Polian. Houston is new and it's not a fair comparison. They've had four seasons.

Cleveland and Detroit you have a point, but those are two of the worst franchises all time since the NFL-AFL merger or the 16-game season.

Ralph has stuck it out in a small market but he could have done far more to create winning teams. His ability to do that isn't tops for sure.

[KMA]

I love, too, how Ralph gets the blame for the bad GMs, but no credit for Polian. You really can't have it both ways.

He gets credit for firing him. It was his call.

What did he do to hire Polian as GM? Nothing. Bledsoe had a heart attack and Polian stepped in with another guy to share the duties. He started off with a bang and got the job. It wasn't some big brainstorm by Ralph.

Why did Ralph fire him? Some dispute with the finance guy. No one has the details. But it seems to me they fired the wrong guy. You?

[KMA]

Sorry JR, I meant since the NFL-AFL merger two posts above for the winning percentage.

[The_Philster]

He fired him because Polian cursed out Ralph's daughter. Think you'd last at your job if you did that? And keep in mind, she's not only his daughter but a Vice-President

[G. Host]

Ralph's record without Polian (post merger) is:

Before Polian: 88-153

After Polian: 93-99

Discuss....

Numbers are not much different than comparing Jim Kelly or post Jim Kelly.
Anybody can dray an immaginary line to make their case stronger. They do it in politics all of the time, it is called "gerrymandering".

[Mr. Cynical]

Numbers are not much different than comparing Jim Kelly or post Jim Kelly.
Anybody can dray an immaginary line to make their case stronger. They do it in politics all of the time, it is called "gerrymandering".

Ok...then draw your imaginary line to make your case.

Obviously the numbers are the same with JK because Polian was there for most of the time JK was there. However, Polian has had a ton of success without JK, so you can't say he was only good because JK was there at the same time.

[Jan Reimers]

Do you know or are you just guessing?

The Bills have had a .440 winning percentage without Polian since the 16 game schedule. That's not good. Philly has been better. They've had 16 winning seasons to our 13 which includes five from Polian. Houston is new and it's not a fair comparison. They've had four seasons.

Cleveland and Detroit you have a point, but those are two of the worst franchises all time since the NFL-AFL merger or the 16-game season.

Ralph has stuck it out in a small market but he could have done far more to create winning teams. His ability to do that isn't tops for sure.
Actually, I meant the Houston Oilers, and I could have thrown in the Jets, who haven't been that stellar since their SB win back in the Dark Ages with Namath.

But I'm actually just saying that the Bills have been a middle of the pack team, when looked at over their entire existence - counting their AFL and Polian years, which really need to be counted, if you're going to count all of the negative years under Ralph - and that he has been more loyal than the many owners who have moved larger market teams with no regard to their fans.

And if you're going to say that Polian was an accident, fine, but then give Ralph credit for hiring a high profile executive with a successful track record in Tom Donahoe. Unfortunately, Donahoe turned out to be an idiot, but I think many of us thought at the time that Ralph had made a great move.

[Historian]

All I can say, is that I've met the man on four separate occasions, and nobody wants to win more than he does. You can see it in his eyes. That's why he sold a Monet to pay Andre Reed's bonus one year. And why he sold a racehorse to pay for another guy's bonus.

Has he always made the right decision? Hell no....but who has?

My only gripe with him, is that he tends to make hasty moves out of anger, ala the Butler-Phillips fiasco. Then, some of those hasty moves tend to take several seasons to straighten out.

But I agree with Dozer 100%. I'll take an old fashoned businessman like Ralph, over quick buck artists like Snyder any day.

[Historian]

Actually, I meant the Houston Oilers, and I could have thrown in the Jets, who haven't been that stellar since their SB win back in the Dark Ages with Namath.



How about the Patriots, Jan?

You've watched the AFL since day one. Why don't you explain to the young 'uns how successful they've been over the years.

;)

[KMA]

How about the Patriots, Jan?

You've watched the AFL since day one. Why don't you explain to the young 'uns how successful they've been over the years.

;)

The Pats have had 16 winning seasons since the 16-game season and 18 since the NFL-AFL merger to the Bills 13 and 16.

Let's face it, the only decent era for the Bills was when Polian was here. During that time, and including the '93 Bills which he built even though he got fired before the season began, the Bills made the playoffs in the last six of those 8 seasons. They were 10-6 in the playoffs during that time. Polian's teams made the playoffs 75% of the time.

Outside of those years and since the NFL-AFL merger, the Bills made the playoffs only 7 times in 28 seasons. 25% They were 2-7 in playoff games losing in their first round in 5 of 7 seasons and never advancing beyond the divisional round.

I'd say that pretty much sucks. Not sure about everyone else though.

[KMA]

He fired him because Polian cursed out Ralph's daughter. Think you'd last at your job if you did that? And keep in mind, she's not only his daughter but a Vice-President

Have you got a link?

Did she do anything that may have warranted a cursing out? Was she sticking her nose into his business maybe?

Just askin' questions. From what I've read, he was fired for a disagreement with the finance guy for the Bills.

[KMA]

Numbers are not much different than comparing Jim Kelly or post Jim Kelly.
Anybody can dray an immaginary line to make their case stronger. They do it in politics all of the time, it is called "gerrymandering".

So I guess that the Patriot's record with Brady, the Cowboys' record with Emmitt Smith, the Niner's record with Montana or Young, etc. don't really matter then? It's all just luck?

[KMA]

Numbers are not much different than comparing Jim Kelly or post Jim Kelly.
Anybody can dray an immaginary line to make their case stronger. They do it in politics all of the time, it is called "gerrymandering".

Not to mention the fact that Polian's been one of the best GMs on two other teams too.

Coaches like Parcells, George Allen, Joe Gibbs, George Halas, Curly Lambeau, Tom Landry, John Madden, Bill Parcells, etc. all just luck, or what?

[patmoran2006]

He fired him because Polian cursed out Ralph's daughter. Think you'd last at your job if you did that? And keep in mind, she's not only his daughter but a Vice-President

Yes.......
It's all about winning and making money and Polian did BOTH..

I'm not bashing Wilson, I think he DESERVES to be in the HOF< but he should not have fired Polian.

[KMA]

Actually, I meant the Houston Oilers, and I could have thrown in the Jets, who haven't been that stellar since their SB win back in the Dark Ages with Namath.

But I'm actually just saying that the Bills have been a middle of the pack team, when looked at over their entire existence - counting their AFL and Polian years, which really need to be counted, if you're going to count all of the negative years under Ralph - and that he has been more loyal than the many owners who have moved larger market teams with no regard to their fans.

And if you're going to say that Polian was an accident, fine, but then give Ralph credit for hiring a high profile executive with a successful track record in Tom Donahoe. Unfortunately, Donahoe turned out to be an idiot, but I think many of us thought at the time that Ralph had made a great move.

Gotcha. Even the Houston Oilers had 10 winning seasons in 9 fewer seasons than than the Bills since the 16-game season and 12 winning seasons since the NFL-AFL merger. Contrast that with the Bills 13 and 15 in 9 more seasons, and I don't see much of a difference.

You are citing the Oilers as being bad, but the numbers aren't significantly different. Wouldn't that put the Bills in the same category?

Loyalty and competence are two different traits. A person could be loyal but incompetent, right? A person could also be competent but not loyal. So using an argument for one doesn't translate to the other in this case.

Yes, the Bills have been in the middle of the pack when you include the Polian years. But when you don't, they've been very near the bottom dwellers. See one of my posts above about playoff appearances. The credit for the teams in Bills history that pushed the Bills to average clearly goes to Polian since after two seasons he had the team making the playoffs for six straight seasons as a direct result of his moves. You can easily argue that with a better coach we would have won at least one Super Bowl.

So we can argue over who's more responsible for what really amounts to the only period of extended success in the history of the Bills. But what we cannot argue is that Ralph didn't go out and make a shrewd move to lure Polian here because he knew that Polian was a star. He stepped into Polian just like anyone steps into something else in the park while on a stroll. We also cannot argue that he was the sole responsible person for firing Polian.

The team went downhill immediately averaging only 8-8 over Levy's last four seasons with two losing seasons.

You say that we should give him credit for hiring Donahoe who was a star and that many said how great a move it was. Others said it wasn't. You say that Donahoe turned out to be an idiot. How do you know that Marv isn't going to turn out the same? There's been a lot fewer people raving about Marv as there were about Donahoe.

What if Marv crashes and burns? What will you think of Ralph's moves then? Is there one great GM that Wilson actually went out and hired? GM's hire the coaches, not the owner. So really, when you talk about building a team, you are talking about the owner's sole responsibility being putting a GM in place.

As I and many people see it, the only successful GM that the Bills have had is Polian and Ralph had little to do with his installement in the position in a way, but everything to do with getting rid of one of the best GMs ever to manage an NFL team. I just cannot convince myself that Ralph should be viewed as a competent owner that knows what he's doing in the face of reality otherwise. If you can, then great. It just doesn't make sense to me.

[KMA]

All I can say, is that I've met the man on four separate occasions, and nobody wants to win more than he does. You can see it in his eyes.

Has he always made the right decision? Hell no....but who has?


Then his competency in that area needs to be questioned. Are there GMs in the league that don't want to win? Coaches?

Other than things about the league or the Bills staying in Buffalo, what excellent moves has he made that have led to an era of winning?

Has he shown history of hiring solid GMs, or more questionable ones?

Has he done all that he could to ensure that the best available GMs and Head coaches came to the Bills?

Sure, he has obviously tried. But has he succeeded in that way?

We all know that Ralph is a nice guy and is loyal. But isn't it possible for someone to be a nice guy and loyal but still not be competent in his abilities elsewhere?

There's far too much emphasis in defending Ralph's capabilities and willingness to do what it takes to see to it that the Bills are a winner on the basis of how nice a guy he is an how loyal he's been to the Buffalo area. Unfortunately I don't see what one has to do with the other.

He stepped into Polian, and the Bills have been really, really bad overall the second that you step outside of the Polian era. The haven't advanced beyond the divisional round of the playoffs outside of Polian built teams. In the handful of seasons that they have made the playoffs they've usuallly lost in the wild card round.

What happened over 40 years ago in a league with 8 teams and a time that wasn't anything like what the NFL has been over the last 30-some years doesn't seem to be a great indicator of how good someone is.

[KMA]

He fired him because Polian cursed out Ralph's daughter. Think you'd last at your job if you did that? And keep in mind, she's not only his daughter but a Vice-President

lol

you say that as if Wilson's daughter at the time was a 7-year old that inadvertantly walked into Polian's office thinking that's where the drinking fountain was with Polian then screaming four-letter words at her.

[Historian]

Other than things about the league or the Bills staying in Buffalo, what excellent moves has he made that have led to an era of winning?

Has he shown history of hiring solid GMs, or more questionable ones?

Has he done all that he could to ensure that the best available GMs and Head coaches came to the Bills?

Other than? :rofl:

He did what he thought was best at the time, just like the rest of us.

1962: Hired Saban away from the Pats.

1969: He hired John Rauch away from the Raiders. (8-5-1 in 1966, 13-1 in 1967 and 12-2 in 1969.)

He hired Chuck Knox away from the Rams. (12-2 in '73, 10-4 in '74, 12-2 in '75, 10-3-1 in '76, and 10-4 in '77) after interviewing Stanford's Walsh.

Promoted Gallagher, Barber, Polian and Butler from within.


Sure, he has obviously tried.

So you essentially answered your own question.


We all know that Ralph is a nice guy and is loyal. But isn't it possible for someone to be a nice guy and loyal but still not be competent in his abilities elsewhere?

The guy is a multi millionaire, who's business is thriving in an area that essentially died in the mid 1980's. I don't quite understand where the uncompetent moniker comes from.


He stepped into Polian

Polian was hired as a personnel guy. See above.


and the Bills have been really, really bad overall the second that you step outside of the Polian era. They haven't advanced beyond the divisional round of the playoffs outside of Polian built teams. In the handful of seasons that they have made the playoffs they've usuallly lost in the wild card round.

This is probably the funniest thing I've read on these boards all year. Thanks!


What happened over 40 years ago in a league with 8 teams and a time that wasn't anything like what the NFL has been over the last 30-some years doesn't seem to be a great indicator of how good someone is.

:groan:

[Mr. Cynical]

How about the Patriots, Jan?

You've watched the AFL since day one. Why don't you explain to the young 'uns how successful they've been over the years.

;)

Interesting you brought up the Pats...

"Robert Kraft announced his intentions to bring New England a championship the day he bought the New England Patriots in 1994, and in just 11 years has made good on that pledge many times over. Kraft has presided over a remarkable transformation for the once fatalistic franchise that was known more for its folly than its football, winning three Super Bowl championships, four conference championships and five division championships, transforming one of the NFL's former doormats into what is now viewed as a model sports franchise.

Since Kraft purchased the Patriots, no NFL team has won as many Super Bowls or conference titles as New England. The Patriots' four conference titles in the Kraft Era of ownership are twice as many as any other NFL team, and since 2001 the Patriots have won three league championships, making them the most successful major sports franchise on the continent."

This is the kind of owner that is needed in Buffalo. Progressive, aggressive and in tune with the modern era.

[KMA]

Again, most of my comments don't relate to a league with 8 teams in it that existed nearly 40 years ago now.

If the NFL had only 8 teams today and wasn't the enormous business that it was back then, don't the odds for any team being good and winning championships go up drastically? The obvious answer is yes.

Also, as asked for, I see nothing in your list since the time the 16 game schedule came out.

Knox was a coach. Bob Lustig was the GM then. Who's decision was it to hire Knox, Wilson's or Lustig's? I don't know, asking, but typically that decision falls to the GM. I would then give him credit for hiring Lustig, but Lustig was also the GM since 1967. His overall record was 53-114-3. Under him the Bills had 3 winning seasons and 9 losing ones. Is that good? I suppose that's relative and up to each person to figure out for themselves, but I don't think it is. I definitely don't consider that impressive. You?

That was during the Saban era too. Saban's teams were 30-25, good, but far from great. That also doesn't include Saban's portion of his last season that was 2-12. They only made the playoffs once during Saban's tenure and were promptly disposed of in the first divisional round 32-14 by the Steelers who dominated the Bills.

Either way, I see nothing in the modern era of pro football going backwards that indicates that Wilson in fact knows what he's doing specifically regarding putting a winning team on the field. Your statements didn't reveal anything.

The modern era is the free agency era. Expanded back from there it's the 16-game schedule. Then the NFL altogether. Most of the things that you mentioned are pre-modern NFL era. It seems to me to be living in the past. Can you name anything over the last 28 seasons during the 16-game schedule, or since the salary cap era in 1994? Since the salary cap has been in place the Bills are 93-99 with a clear trend downward.

What you say is "the funniest thing that you've read on the boards all day" is nothing but several facts. What was so funny about it? I don't think it's funny that my team has a history of such poor play outside of the era of one single person. Do you?

Even so, even assuming that Ralph has known what he was doing say before about the time the 16-game schedule came out, couldn't it be that he once knew what he was doing but no longer does, especially in an era where he's proven anything but that he does and one where he's nearing 90 years old?

Suppose he lives to be 113 and they have to wheel him into work every day for the last 15 years of his life. Is anyone going to be making an argument that he's still competent, especially if what's going on continues? At what point is it safe to make the suggestion that maybe Ralph is no longer competent at something that quite honestly he doesn't exactly have an unarguable history with?

[KMA]

This is the kind of owner that is needed in Buffalo. Progressive, aggressive and in tune with the modern era.

Precisely

[KMA]

For the record, here is the Bills playoff performance history in 26 seasons prior to Polian's arrival:

1981

AFC Wildcard Game: won 31 - 27 at New York Jets (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nyj1981.htm)
AFC Divisional Playoff: lost 21 - 28 at Cincinnati Bengals (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/cin1981.htm)

1980

AFC Divisional Playoff: lost 14 - 20 at San Diego Chargers (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/sdg1980.htm)

1974

AFC Divisional Playoff: lost 14 - 32 at Pittsburgh Steelers (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit1974.htm)

1966

AFL Championship Game: lost 7 - 31 vs. Kansas City Chiefs (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/kan1966.htm)

1965

AFL Championship Game: won 23 - 0 at San Diego Chargers (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/sdg1965.htm)

1964

AFL Championship Game: won 20 - 7 vs. San Diego Chargers (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/sdg1964.htm)

1963

AFL Divisional Playoff: lost 8 - 26 vs. Boston Patriots (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nwe1963.htm)

[Historian]

What you say is "the funniest thing that you've read on the boards all day" is nothing but several facts. What was so funny about it? I don't think it's funny that my team has a history of such poor play outside of the era of one single person. Do you?

They have been really, really, bad.

They haven't advanced beyond the Wild Card round.

Again, thanks for a chuckle. :up:



Suppose he lives to be 113 and they have to wheel him into work every day for the last 15 years of his life. Is anyone going to be making an argument that he's still competent, especially if what's going on continues? At what point is it safe to make the suggestion that maybe Ralph is no longer competent at something that quite honestly he doesn't exactly have an unarguable history with?

Cool! That means the Bills will be here at least another 26 years!


;)

[The_Philster]

Have you got a link?

Did she do anything that may have warranted a cursing out? Was she sticking her nose into his business maybe?

Just askin' questions. From what I've read, he was fired for a disagreement with the finance guy for the Bills. Not from that long ago...lol...I thought it was common knowledge, anyway. Yes, he and Littman did not get along...but the straw that broke the camel's back was cursing out Ralph's daughter

Yes.......
It's all about winning and making money and Polian did BOTH..

I'm not bashing Wilson, I think he DESERVES to be in the HOF< but he should not have fired Polian.Look, I wish Polian had stayed as well...but the insubordination can't be overlooked. Ralph was in his rights to fire him. Polian shouldn't have put him in the position to have to, though.

[patmoran2006]

He could have hung Ralph's daughter by a rope out on a 8 story building for all I care if it would have meant more winning playoff seasons

[The_Philster]

He could have hung Ralph's daughter by a rope out on a 8 story building for all I care if it would have meant more winning playoff seasons
You do know you're letting your emotions rule your posts, right?

I challenge anyone to try to pull what Polian pulled and still keep his job. I've issued that challenge many times yet no one's got the cajones to try it ;)

[Historian]

Credit Ralph for letting him finish out the season.

As I recall, the incident happened early in the 1992 season.

[The_Philster]

Credit Ralph for letting him finish out the season.

As I recall, the incident happened early in the 1992 season.
actually, it happened before the season, according to Polian
source:Relentless, page 461
The book doesn't give the reason he was fired but Polian and Ralph met before the season and Ralph told him he'd be gone following the season.

[patmoran2006]

You do know you're letting your emotions rule your posts, right?

I challenge anyone to try to pull what Polian pulled and still keep his job. I've issued that challenge many times yet no one's got the cajones to try it ;)
When I leave work today, Im gonna go on my bosses desk , and take her pic of her kid and smash it on the ground.. and say I'm Bill Polian, *****!

[The_Philster]

When I leave work today, Im gonna go on my bosses desk , and take her pic of her kid and smash it on the ground.. and say I'm Bill Polian, *****!
1...that's not nearly the same thing Polian did
2..is the boss's kid a VP of the company?
3..no cajones :D

[KMA]

They have been really, really, bad.

They haven't advanced beyond the Wild Card round.

Again, thanks for a chuckle. :up:



Cool! That means the Bills will be here at least another 26 years!


;)

Glad you enjoyed the chuckle.

I did say divisional round, not wild card round. You wrote wild card. Did I miss a year outside of Polian built teams in which we actually advanced beyond the divisional round?

1999

AFC Wildcard Game: lost 16 - 22 at Tennessee Titans (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/oti1999.htm)

1998

AFC Wildcard Game: lost 17 - 24 at Miami Dolphins (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/mia1998.htm)

1996

AFC Wildcard Game: lost 27 - 30 vs. Jacksonville Jaguars (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/jax1996.htm)

1995

AFC Wildcard Game: won 37 - 22 vs. Miami Dolphins (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/mia1995.htm)
AFC Divisional Playoff: lost 21 - 40 at Pittsburgh Steelers (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit1995.htm)

1981

AFC Wildcard Game: won 31 - 27 at New York Jets (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nyj1981.htm)
AFC Divisional Playoff: lost 21 - 28 at Cincinnati Bengals (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/cin1981.htm)

1980

AFC Divisional Playoff: lost 14 - 20 at San Diego Chargers (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/sdg1980.htm)

1974

AFC Divisional Playoff: lost 14 - 32 at Pittsburgh Steelers (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit1974.htm)


Unless I missed something that's 2-3 in Wild Card games and 0-4 in divisional round games.

Is that correct, or not?

[KMA]

It can even be argued that the 1995 and 96 teams had a lot of Polian talent on them too.

[KMA]

Look, I wish Polian had stayed as well...but the insubordination can't be overlooked. Ralph was in his rights to fire him. Polian shouldn't have put him in the position to have to, though.

I hear ya. But the fact remains, the Bills haven't had another decent GM besides Polian. At least as far as winning is concerned. Butler probably has the best record without looking at it.

[KMA]

Credit Ralph for letting him finish out the season.

As I recall, the incident happened early in the 1992 season.

I'd still be curious as to what really happened there. Wilson's daughter must have been 40 or so. It's not like she was a little girl.

Let's not stray from the point though.

Under Donahoe the Bills were 31-49 with no playoff appearances.

Under Butler the Bills were 74-54 and made the playoffs in 5 of 7 seasons but progressively got worse as Polian's team began to fade. 1993, a Polian team in Butler's first season, was the last time the Bills advanced past the divisional round. 1995 produced a playoff team that won in the WC round and lost the divisional round. 1996, 98, and 99 the Bills lost in the WC round. Butler also left a salary cap mess indicating that he may not have been the best GM. What was his plan if he hadn't left here.

Under Polian the Bills were 69-42 and made the playoffs in 5 of 7 seasons. Polian should probably get credit for the Bills 4th trip to the dance too pushing that 69-42 to 81-45. Was he responsible for his first two seasons of 4-12 and 7-8 with the Bills coming off of two 2-14 seasons?

Under Bledsoe the Bills were 4-28.

Under McGroder for a season they were 8-8.

Under Barber they were 32-25 and did make the playoffs in two of four seasons losing in the divisional round both times. I don't know much about Barber or why he didn't stick around.

Under Lustig (in the NFL) they were 44-82-2 and made the playoffs once losing their only game in the divisional round.